http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hymn

With my Roman-Catholic background I will start with some Catholic ones...
My purpose in this thread is to not let interfere something of the content of the hymns in the appreciation...
And yes, do there exists "pagan" hymns too...? MM? I don't ask you because I coin you as a pagan, but because I know that you are a knowledgeable person about all such stuff...











I think I am with my Gregorian beforehand lost in the competition against the more modern Protestant church hymns...?

Of course if the following adds in the competition?






And even in Gregorian...



















And I have not yet spoken of the Alleluia from Händel or the Agnus Dei from Caruso or the Agnus Dei from Bizet...





Kind regards, Paul.

For many in UK, Paul the school morning used to begin with a hymn, biblical reading and lecture about yesterday's behaviour by the Head. Many tha we sang were first sung when we were five and still used when we were eighteen - so they sort of became engrained. These in turn are used at funerals for the aged - but only the aged there can sing them because the young have never heard them.
Modern hymns used in schools are more happy clappy - but I honestly don't know if hymns are still sung in schools.

The heavier chorales are sung by choirs - not always for church use and I bless the day I decided to join a serious one for 20 years. For one thing, listening to the other parts and following a score in choir taught me to hear all the parts in orchestral pieces which gives the listening experience another dimension.

Cof E church service music often includes 'anthems' - short pieces usually based on a text. These are 'set pieces' in a service and great for the choir if not the congregation. I joined a college choir for that opportunity. I cannot find a defence for my affection for the old hymns nor the emotional blast that comes with some of them. What say others on this?

Quite agree P - at school I loathed hymn singing and the whole assembly guff, but now at the few chuch services I am obliged to attend - weddings and funerals, and increasingly now it's the latter - I greet those old traditional hymns affably if not entirely affectionately. We're not exactly good friends, more like estranged family members, and the memories may not always be happy but we've known each other so long that there really isn't any animosity now. I reckon to still know all the words and make a point of never opening the hymnal. I therefore risk both committing the sin of pride, and also of being caught out if they're using a more modern hymn book with some of the verses cut! I also used to play in the brass band at school and occasionally we accompanied the hymn singing - playing was considerably better than having to sing - and I still know all the descants and counterpoint melodies, such as in, say, "The Old Hundredth".

Descants, ah yes, mm: Along with 6 others at our Junior School, we learned descants to many of the hymns - and several songs. I never saw the point of them other than it was a sort of sound competition with the rest of the school to see if we could put them off tune. We often won. As with you, mm, I can still recall all of them - and along with another plotter have been known to use them. (One indulges in life's small pleasure where one can.)

I know hymns are defined in the dictionary as being any song of praise but I feel that it isn't really a hymn unless it's in the vernacular language and intended to be sung communally ... which, to my mind, rules out Gregorian chant, and all the corpus of canticles, cantatas, anthems and oratorios sung in Latin. I'm pretty sure that many English hymns and carols can be dated back to the middle ages but I assume these were never used liturgically since church services were always exclusively in Latin. I assume it was the leading lights of the Protestant Reformation that encouraged vernacular congregational singing ... along with all the services and Bible readings in the local language. Certainly Martin Luther himself was a dab hand at composing hymns in his native German: Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott (A Mighty Fortress Is Our God) is one of his. I note that certain Protestant sects still only sing unaccompanied, ie. a cappella (which interestingly means literally: "as in the manner of the chapel") since they say there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the Psalms were ever performed with instrumental accompaniment.

I wonder what are the oldest hymns still regularly sung? "God Rest You Merry Gentlemen" seems musically to be very old since it is set in the Dorian Mode (ie the octave based on all the white notes on the piano but starting on D not C, or if you like in the solfège scale, à la "Sound of Music", the octave: re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, do, re) .... which is an harmonic form often used in late medieval and early renaissance music.

'All Glory, Laud and Honour' ... St Theodolph words c830 melody c1615 was a surprise because it seemed later - mercifully the thirty odd Latin verses were translated and thinned down to 12. Being only for Palm Sunday we did not get to sing it often but I recall the gusto for this one.

Ah - if I may digress, mm, Dorian Mode - so I've got him at last. This must be the lad at a local secondary who got up very early one summer morn to slap  superglue on the  white piano key felts. My friend the Head - yet another disbelieving Historian MA  - after being enraged was able to relate with more than a shred of glee the consternation of the school pianist as her keyboard faded in stages to the delight of the school and a louder than usual buzz around the vth form lines. Thus was assembly ended as were bums forced to sit on seats after school for some time after. I wonder if he went far in life? I was once told for similar reasons that I would .... approx 4500 miles as it turned out.

"All Glory Laud and Honour" .... hmmm that takes me back, and personally it also just illustrates the effects of indoctrinating young minds through repetitive behaviour alone, without actually educating them. I'm sure as a seven or eight year old, I always sang something like: "All glory lord and on our, Tooth-ey red something king...". It might have sounded correct to the satisfaction of the Headmistress, but I really hadn't a clue what we were all singing about. And frankly today I'm little the wiser   .

I had the same problem with that horribly modern chirpy little hymn "Morning has broken" ...  whose third verse starts:
"Mine is the sunlight,
Mine is the morning
Born of the one light,
Eden saw play...."

..... now I knew what a jigsaw was, and I knew what a see-saw was, but I hadn't a clue what an edensaw was , though evidently you could still play on it.   .

Things got a bit grittier when I progressed to secondary school. I was brought up in a small port and in the sixties and seventies many families still made their living from the sea via fishing, the docks, merchant shipping, even still some ship-building, so a "favourite" at school was the cheerful, "Eternal Father, strong to save"... with the first verse ending rather mournfully: " Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea!"

Actually that hymn was always a favourite of my grand-dad (who'd been a mariner all his life), and in turn of his daughter, my mother ... so I've come to appreciate it, but at school it always sounded just like a funeral dirge.

Well, it is a funeral dirge really, isn't it?  I have always liked it for its tune.

I was thinking of starting the thread for this, but my historical knowledge of the rise of hymns was a bit scant as regards other churches than the Presbyterian ones.  I have a book on church music somewhere but finding it was likely to be difficult.

But while I was thinking about the beginnings of organ music in the Presbyterian church I happened to be checking out a family history diary that our museum has and at the end it had this about the area: "It was more than 20 yeasrs after the great question of the introduction of instrumental music in Presbyterian churches arose that Warepa congregations sang to an organ.  From the first services in 1854 to 1895 when the organ was installed, precentors, standing in front of the pulpit, led the singing. The first services followed the order of those in Scotland - the congregation stood to pray, remained seating for the singing of psalms and listened to sermons of an hour long. No hymns were sung till the adoption of The Church Praise hymn book in 1892."

Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree which is about this controversy was written in 1872 but I am not sure when it was set.  It would appear to have been contemporary.  In that book the hymns, till the organ (and the pretty organist) was introduced, were accompanied with fiddles.  But was that usual - I don't know?

And I don't know what the Roman Catholic church used (or uses).  I went regularly to church as a child - I have a best attendance certificate from when I was three - and church had four hymns or psalms each week, but children were only in the church for the first twenty minutes of the hour-long service, before heading out to Sunday School.  At primary school we had an hour of religious instruction a week - just for the Presbyterian (or at least Protestant) children.  The only RC boy spent the time wandering round the school, I think somewhat to our envy, though really it must have been pretty boring for him.  There is controversy in NZ as I write because religion is still allowed in schools, despite NZ not have a state religion or a religious curriculum.  I think it has to be outside school hours, but schools just "close" their school for the hour it takes.  Some non-religious parents have been up in arms about this. They have the right to withdraw their children but feel they are then made to feel excluded.  The boy at our school was one of the leaders so I don't think he was ever made to feel anything but superior.  Apart from recollecting his wanderings I have no memory of the religious hour, I suppose it was repetitive of the Bible stories we heard at Sunday School and in church, and therefore not memorable.  I don't remember singing hymns, but we may have.

At high school, one hymn at assembly each morning.  I had a favourite hymn but I can't remember what it was now. I feel it might have been Hymn 24 from the hymn book which I think was still the one from 1892. The 19th century seems to have the time of great hymn composing with Charles Wesley writing some 6000.  But there seem to be modern hymns still being written - one of my former lecturers at university was in our wee town a year or so ago and he was composing and singing hymns.  I went to interview him for our newspaper. 

They sang Abide With Me at my father's funeral which has give it a bit of bittersweet feeling for me since.  Now I don't really get to sing hymns except at funerals, and people use the same ones over and over, especially How Great Thou Art.  I could wish for more imaginative efforts.  I sing them heartily, as I know them and still retain most of the words, but my brother-in-law, a strong atheist, won't even sing our national anthem because it mentions God.  I feel songs are in a separate category; most songs of any sort that I sing don't have personal meaning for me, so why should I treat hymns etc any differently?

Where do carols fit? Just hymns for the season, I suppose.  Most of the carols I know are from my childhood but there is one with some Maori words, Te Harinui:  lyrics are:

1. Not on a snowy night
   By star or candlelight
   Nor by an angel band
   There came to our dear land Te Harinui
   Te Harinui
   Te Hari-nu-i
   Glad tid-ings of great joy
   
   
   
2. But on a summer day
   Within a quiet bay
   The Maori people heard
   The great and glorious word
   
   
3. The people gathered round
   Upon the grassy ground
   And heard the preacher say
   I bring to you this day
   
   
4. Now in this blessed land
   United heart and hand
   We praise the glorious birth
   And sing to all the earth
   

Caro, carols are not hymns, not always religious though some became so after the puritanical kybosh on anything which remotely sounded like fun. Coming from a French source -they know how to get a bit of fun into life, do the French, there are several spring/ May time carols, for instance with dances as well.

HYmns are the 'be upstanding stuff' in church - or as with 'Abide with me,'  fervently raised when you have doubts about your team at footer matches and you want to remain sober enough to see a win or hopefully blackout the memory of failure.

Like MM, I know many - and  phrases within which are so rich in image;

Paviolioned in splendour,' comes to mind.
And many of the tunes are great.  I  recall an incident at schoolwhen I was very young when someone questioned the head about the hymn 'Glorious things of thee are spoken..'  for it being the German national anthem.... a very brave lad, that and no doubt prompted by his mum. Most dads in our school were in munitions factories frequently bombed. As far as I can recall, very  few had  family in uniformed service - mine for one. I remember the silent glower from our very musical head - who said whether truthfully or not that it was ours before theirs and we would sing it as such.

No one otherwise ever questioned the political complexities mentioned in hmns - Zion, King of Israel,marching to promised lands and so on. But 'I vow to thee my country' was well undestood at that time - and long before it became a useful anthem for rugby matches sung with beery gusto.
I was very amused when my mother questioned the use of 'Jerusalem' by the Women's Institute when she  remarked that  he wouldn't be allowed to join if he returned, so what's that about?

Priscilla wrote:

I  recall an incident at schoolwhen I was very young when someone questioned the head about the hymn 'Glorious things of thee are spoken..'  for it being the German national anthem....

Now that's triggered a memory:

When I was about 13 years old we had music classes with Mrs Whealan - an enormous Irish woman, who put the fear of God into everyone including the Headmaster. She once caught me talking in class and as punishment made me stand on a chair at the front and sing the hymn: "Father hear the prayer we offer"... but as an extra twist, she made me sing it to the tune of the German National Anthem/'Glorious things of thee are spoken' .... the words do actually fit the music. With hindsight I could have camped it up and done a Basil Fawlty/Hitler/Great Dictator etc.  complete with Nazi salutes and fingered moustache! But as it was I just mumbled my way through it with Mrs Whealan thumping out the chords on the piano and bellowing, "come on boy - molto forte - sing up". My voice had fully broken by then and since I could play both violin and trumpet I wasn't completely tone-deaf, nevertheless having to perform in front of the whole sniggering, smirking class, girls as well as boys, was one of the most mortifying episodes of my school career. It wouldn't have been so bad had she made me croon my way through a popular song, something by Simon and Garfunkle maybe - it was the early 1970s after all - but "Father hear the prayer we offer" wasn't really very sexy and nor likely to impress the girls.

By the way the usual music to 'Glorious things of thee are spoken' was composed in 1797 by Joseph Haydn no less as, 'Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser' (God save Emperor Francis) and refers to the Holy Roman Emperor Francis II. As such it was effectively a national anthem for the old Austrian empire rather than for Germany (which of course wouldn't be unified for another 75 years or so). In that definitive Anglican work, "Hymns Ancient & Modern", the tune has always been known, discreetly, even coyly,  by the simple name, "Austria".

Incidentally during Napoleon's siege of Vienna in 1805 both Haydn and Beethoven found themselves trapped in the city and under fire. During the city's bombardment, Beethoven remained hidden away in a cellar his head buried in blankets to protect his hearing - he was already starting to suffer the first signs of deafness - meanwhile the elderly Haydn had his piano carried out into the streets where he proceeded to hammer out 'Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser' and other loyal and patriotic tunes, whilst loudly exhorting the population to defend their city.

As I recall Mrs Whealan liked Haydn.

You guys hadn't got this to contend with:


Hail, glorious Saint Patrick,  
Dear saint of our isle,
On us thy poor children  
Bestow a sweet smile;
And now thou art high  
In thy mansions above,
On Erin’s green valleys  
Look down in thy love.
Chorus
On Erin’s green valleys,  on Erin’s green valleys,
On Erin’s green valleys look down in thy love.

Hail, glorious Saint Patrick!   
Thy words were once strong
Against Satan’s wiles and  
An infidel throng;
Not less is thy might  
Where in heaven thou art;
O, come to our aid,  
In our battle take part


This was taught to victims from the ages of three or four. As someone who, according to some of his already thoroughly "tutored" young neighbours, was part of this "infidel throng" and who wished to lodge a protest I delighted in substituting "vainglorious" for the first two words when singing along with the rest of the class before our daily bout of torture.

As sung nowadays the "infidel throng" verse is normally (though not always) skipped. In doing so the singers are actually returning it to its original tone as written by a certain "Sister Agnes of the Convent of Charleville, Co. Cork" circa 1853.  In the Arundel Hymns 1902 edition (the hymnal edited by Henry Fitzalan-Howard, 15th Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Arundel and Surrey, and which opened with a preface written by the pope himself) the Glasgow hymnologist (bet you didn't know they existed!) Rev James A. Mearns has noted that Sister Agnes's hymn had been "rewritten, with the loss of the original naivete". IRB recruitment had been notched up a grade in the interim and Saint Patrick had now become an official (if ethereal) fighter for the cause ahainst the "infidel".


The "naive" version


That notorious mouthpice of rabid republicanism (irony), Daniel O'Donnell (whose fan base's age averaged out at around 92), belts out the version noted by Mearns and taught to us wee innocents by the good sisters.

Oh but I did have to contend with it, Nordmann. My high school was a convent school and we had it every St Paddy's Day.  I used to keep quiet and not sing it (the crucifix was at the back of the hall and we had to face that when we prayed so we were facing away from the nun in charge who was standing on the stage).  As I was born in the UK, albeit of half Irish parentage, I felt I was within my rights to not sing as Britain was my isle and not Ireland.

In one version of the hymn (a hit for the Wolfe Tones) you aren't safe in the UK either anyway - St Pat's "green and white banner" will fly over the banks of the Clyde and beyond, it claims. The bould Paddy's pursuit of the infidel is nothing if not thorough, you know.

Maybe you have a point, Nordmann.  If I remember rightly, Patrick was a Briton (as in a Celtic occupant of the island of Briton from before the time what is now England was taken over by the Anglo-Saxons). I suppose the word Anglo-Saxon covers a multitude of sins but it's the word I learned at school and it has stuck. Maybe Patrick can come after us in the UK then.  I've heard some of the Wolfe Tones' songs over the years but I never realised they had sung that particular hymn.  I tended to think of them as a band that sang republican songs.

Patrick didn't exist, LiR, at least not as you or I were introduced to him. He didn't even "bring" christianity to the "sainted isle" and that's documentable (thank god for a Roman church that kept records). There are several individuals involved any one (or all) of whom can be labelled "patricius" (father). The one who wrote the two documents still on record however is at least half-way traceable back to the British Christians using normal criteria for discerning anything historically (traditionally ignored by Christians regarding christianity), including christianity.

Some Irish hymns predate christianity though they were later revamped. This one, still sung in church in Irish, originally referencing Mannanán Mac Lír (a bit like Poseidon/Neptune and not unusual for an island people), is beautiful. "Ag Críost an Síol". It speaks of pre-Christian aspirations, morality, life and death etc, but it does it uncompromisingly, without any regard for contradicting Roman Catholic morality that may have popped up later.

To Christ the seed, to Christ the crop,
in barn (catch) of Christ may we be brought.
To Christ the sea, to Christ the fish,
in nets of Christ may we be caught.
From growth to age, from age to death,
Thy two arms here, O Christ, about us.
From death to end, not end but growth,
in blessed Paradise may we be.

(the singable version)
Ag Críost an síol, ag Críost an fómhar;
in iothlainn Dé go dtugtar sinn.
Ag Críost an mhuir, ag Críost an t-iasc;
líonta Dé go gcastar sinn.

Ó fhás go haois, 's ó aois go bás,
do dhá láimh, a Chríost, anall tharainn.

Ó bhás go críoch nach críoch ach athfhás,
i bParthas na ngrás go rabhaimid.

And Sean O'Riada's composition

One of my favourite hymns is "St. Patrick's Breastplate". But I suppose he didn't write that either.

That makes me a bit sad.

MM wrote:

 I note that certain Protestant sects still only sing unaccompanied, ie. a cappella (which interestingly means literally: "as in the manner of the chapel") since they say there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the Psalms were ever performed with instrumental accompaniment.

That's odd. What about Psalm 33?


1  Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous:

       
for praise is comely for the upright.


2  Praise the LORD with harp:

       
sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.


3  Sing unto him a new song;

       
play skilfully with a loud noise.


I too hate the modern hymns - all that "Give me oil in my lamp, keep me burning" etc.

Some of the words for the old English hymns were written by masters of English poetry: George Herbert for example, and of course Blake's "Jerusalem". Cracking stuff.

I think the words quoted above are cracking stuff too. Doesn't really matter when, or by whom, they were written.

nordmann wrote:

Patrick didn't exist, LiR, at least not as you or I were introduced to him. He didn't even "bring" christianity to the "sainted isle" and that's documentable (thank god for a Roman church that kept records). There are several individuals involved any one (or all) of whom can be labelled "patricius" (father). The one who wrote the two documents still on record however is at least half-way traceable back to the British Christians using normal criteria for discerning anything historically (traditionally ignored by Christians regarding christianity), including christianity.

Oh, Nordmann, next you'll be telling me he didn't drive the snakes out of Ireland.  (And before you annihilate me I am "having a larf").  I  read once about some scientific theory that held that the further to the extremes of a continent a piece of land was, the less snakes lived in such areas.  Of course, as per normal, when I look on Google to try and find the theory, Google is not my friend.

Regarding sects that sing hymns unaccompanied ... That was my misunderstanding: I think they take their cue not from the Psalms themselves but simply because they believe instruments were not used by the early Christian church, in that there are no references in the New Testament to using instruments in worship. 

Reading around a bit it seems both Martin Luther and John Calvin were keen on congregational singing as an act of worship. But while Luther encouraged hymn singing, Calvin thought that song should be restricted solely to the Psalms. Calvin also likened musical instruments in church to "graven images" and so thought their use was inappropriate, hence his enthusiasm for plainsong.

He wrote (in his commentary On Psalms):

"To sing the praises of God upon the harp and psaltery unquestionably formed a part of the training of the law and of the service of God under that dispensation of shadows and figures, but they are not now to be used in public thanksgiving ....... We are to remember that the worship of God was never understood to consist in such outward services, which were only necessary to help forward a people as yet weak and rude in knowledge in the spiritual worship of God. A difference is to be observed in this respect between his people under the Old and under the New Testament; for now that Christ has appeared, and the church has reached full age, it were only to bury the light of the gospel should we introduce the shadows of a departed dispensation. From this it appears that the Papists, as I shall have occasion to show elsewhere, in employing instrumental music cannot be said so much to imitate the practice of God's ancient people as to ape it in a senseless and absurd manner, exhibiting a silly delight in that worship of the Old Testament which was figurative and terminated with the gospel. "

Puritanical elements within the protestant church in England were also quite keen to abolish instrumental accompaniment. On the 20th of May 1644, the church commissioners in Scotland wrote to the General Assembly at Westminster and made the following statement among others:

"We cannot but admire the good hand of God in the great things done here already, particularly that the covenant, the foundation of the whole work, is taken, Prelacy and the whole train thereof extirpated, the service-book in many places forsaken, plain and powerful preaching set up, many colleges in Cambridge provided with such ministers as are most zealous of the best reformation, altars removed, the communion in some places given at the table with sitting, The great organs at Paul's and Peter's in Westminster taken down, images and many other monuments of idolatry defaced and abolished, the Chapel Royal at Whitehall purged and reformed; and all by authority, in a quiet manner, at noon-day, without tumult."

If they'd continued to have their way there might never have been a tradition of English instrumental church music .... so no Handel's Oratorio or Zadok the Priest for a start.

LadyinRetirement wrote:

Quote :

I  read once about some scientific theory that held that the further to the extremes of a continent a piece of land was, the less snakes lived in such areas.  Of course, as per normal, when I look on Google to try and find the theory, Google is not my friend.

Snakes being cold-blooded reptiles had to live out the ice ages further south around the Mediterranean where it was warmer. At the end of the last ice age (about 15,000 yrs ago) as things started to warm up they could migrate back northwards. But at the same time the ice was melting and so sea levels rose. Snakes managed to get across the straits of Dover while it was still dry land, but didn't make it from England into Ireland before the Irish Sea flooded again. Hence no snakes in Ireland. I don't think there are any lizards either, for exactly the same reason. Yet just across the English Channel/North Sea, in Northern France, Belgium and Holland there are about twice as many species of amphibian and reptile as in England.

CORRECTION: There's one species of lizard native to Ireland.

No snakes in NZ either.  It has always been my understanding Ireland and New Zealand are the only countries without snakes. NZ is somewhat on the extremities, not just of continents but of the world!

No native mammals in NZ either except those that could swim there (whales and seals) or fly there (bats).

I had a snake in my garden the other day. I've had one before when the weather was very,very hot - the poor things come for a drink and a cool-down courtesy of the lawn sprinkler. Gave me an awful fright though, even though it was only a grass snake. I've never had an adder, thank goodness (well, not that I know of).

Back to hymns.

MM wrote:

If they'd continued to have their way there might never have been a tradition of English instrumental church music .... so no Handel's Oratorio or Zadok the Priest for a start.

Absolutely. Miserable lot, the Puritans. Calvin scares me just reading what you've quoted from him above. He makes you come over feeling all sinful and damned. No wonder Elizabeth I and Shakespeare loathed the lot of them.

Out o' tune, sir: ye lie...Dost thou think, because thou art
virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?

Thankfully Elizabeth was tolerant of the Catholic men of genius she had about her: the church music of both Tallis and Byrd is sublime - both were Catholics.

Another Catholic composer who managed to prosper under both Mary and then Elizabeth was Robert White. Like Tallis he was a master of English polyphonic song - his setting of the verses from Lamentations is magnificent and always brings a lump to the throat. But he died of the plague in 1574 aged only 36.

EDIT :

Actually when you think about it, the Puritans were at least partly successful in their mission to end the tradition of English instrumental church music. In contrast to the situation in France and Italy, I cannot think of any great English court or church composers for most of the 17th century until Henry Purcell arrives on the scene in the 1680s, which is all the more surprising given the richness of English liturgical music under Elizabeth. Minette can criticise the Tudors but even she has to admit that Henry VIII and Elizabeth were both accomplished musicians and competant composers in their own right, who encouraged and supported a uniquely English renaissance in ecclesiastical music.

PS : Temp, Did you notice I also managed to use your 'mot de jour', eschew in one of the above posts?  

Meles meles wrote:

Actually when you think about it, the Puritans were at least partly successful in their mission to end the tradition of English instrumental church music. In contrast to the situation in France and Italy, I cannot think of any great English court or church composers for most of the 17th century until Henry Purcell arrives on the scene in the 1680s, which is all the more surprising given the richness of English liturgical music under Elizabeth. Minette can critisize the Tudors but even she has to admit that Henry VIII and Elizabeth were both accomplished musicians and competant composers in their own right, who encouraged and supported a uniquely English renaissance in ecclesiastical music.

Yes, for all their ruthless cruelty and paranoia (went with the job, I suppose), the Tudors were hugely appreciative of music - and of poetry and art. Thomas Tallis's talent was appreciated and encouraged even during the austerely Protestant reign of Edward VI. Celtic blood in those Tudors, you see (and Elizabeth had an extra dollop on her mother's side). But you are right about the later quite unmusical Puritans - a dreary crew, although very efficient at most things (no drink means things get done of course - none of that sitting around wasting time strumming lutes and singing). I suppose music was frowned upon too because it could lead to foot-tapping or even, Heaven forbid, ungodly thoughts about dancing - that dreadful "lewd capering" that Calvin and Knox and their ilk so despised. The English loved their music (in church and out) and dancing too - what a miserable time the middle years of the 17th century must have been for all but the few. No wonder the world went mad in 1660.

EDIT: I don't know very much about the Stuarts - were they a musical lot?

MM wrote:

PS : Temp, Did you notice I also managed to use your 'mot de jour', eschew in one of the above posts?    

I didn't! Oh, I do like the idea of a "mot du jour", MM! I think we should have one every day while the Boss is on his hols. I don't think he'd mind. (Well, he won't know, will he?)

PS But not "irony" or "ironic": both are now banned - also "God" and "religion". (EDIT: banned by me, not by anyone else!)

Hmm ... a 'mot de jour' ... you mean like we have to try and include it into our posts? I like it! But words like "irony", "God", "religion" would be too easy anyway. It would have to be a more challenging word ... like "palimpsest" or such like. But who decrees the day's bon mot?

Or were you thinking along the lines of a word with particular resonance for the day?  ... a bit like the 'on this day' thread?

   

PS : And I can't now find my "eschew" anymore, maybe I deleted it during an edit, although I do distinctly remember typing it.

Meles meles wrote:

Hmm ... a 'mot de jour' ... you mean like we have to try and include it into our posts? I like it! But words like "irony", "God", "religion" would be too easy anyway. It would have to be a more challenging word ... like "palimpsest" or such like.

  

But who decrees the day's bon mot?


PS : And I can't now find my "eschew" anymore, maybe I deleted it during an edit, although I do distinctly remember typing it.

I can't find it either. I like "palimpsest" - that's a real challenge. Perhaps that could be tomorrow's mot du jour?

I don't know who should set the word - who's the deputy  around here? Priscilla? Ferval? (But I think the latter might be too busy watching all those Scots and other persons running and cycling like mad things around Glasgow at the moment.)

Well, we're usually all fairly informal here so if anyone can come up with a good usage of the day's word, I reckon they can take it on themselves to nominate the next day's "mot du jour".

And sorry Paul, we do rather seem to have taken over your  OP with silliness about words and digressions into the distribution of European reptiles ... And I in particular feel I should apologise for rather snubbing your opening links to some cracking religious music, by saying I didn't personally feel they counted as hymns, although I'm still not quite sure why or why not, and what exactly defines a "hymn" anyway as distinct from any other form of sung praise, in whatever language.

Mea maxima culpa.

Apologies from me too, Paul - and thank you for starting this thread.

I think a hymn is just a song of praise - not necessarily to God or to the gods - didn't the Greeks "hymn" their heroes?
 

n.,  v.  hymned, hymn•ing. n.  
1.  a song or ode in praise or honor of God, a deity, a nation, etc.

2.  something resembling this, as a speech or essay in praise of someone or something.
v.t.  
3.  to praise or celebrate in a hymn.

4.  to express in a hymn.
v.i.  
5.  to sing hymns.

[before 1000; Middle English ymne (< Old French), Old English ymn < Latin hymnus < Greek hýmnos song in praise of gods or heroes]

But in its usual English "vernacular" setting, most people would recognise, say, "All Glory Laud and Honour", as a hymn, but see for example, Handel's "Halleujah" (chorus) as something different .. although both are clearly sung praises to the same Lord. No?

And while I'm again emphasising the vernacular aspect, I admit I'm being inconsistent in that I am quite happy accepting "Oh come all ye faithful", as a hymn, even when sung (as we did every year at school) in Latin as "Adeste fideles".

Perhaps I'm just being picky and awkward?

Meles meles wrote:

But in its usual English "vernacular" setting, most people would recognise, say, "All Glory Laud and Honour", as a hymn, but see for example, Handel's "Halleujah" (chorus) as something different .. although both are clearly sung praises to the same Lord. No?

And while I'm again emphasising the vernacular aspect, I admit I'm being inconsistent in that I am quite happy accepting "Oh come all ye faithful", as a hymn, even when sung (as we did every year at school) in Latin as "Adeste fideles".

Perhaps I'm just being picky and awkward?

I don't think you are being "picky and awkward" at all. It's an interesting point. When did "hymn" become "hymn" in the modern sense? Was it with the Methodists and the great "hymns" of Charles Wesley?

And how is a canticle different from a hymn? I remember a Simon and Garfunkel song - I think it was Scarborough Fair - being described as "a canticle". I always thought a canticle was a song of praise to God. I'm really not sure about this.

I thought a canticle was a song of praise, like a hymn, but with the words taken from specific text such as religious scripture .... so like the psalms when sung. Which then begs the question why was 'Scarborough Fair' described as a canticle, and what's the difference between an unaccompanied sung canticle, and a chant?

Meles meles wrote:

Which then begs the question why was 'Scarborough Fair' described as a canticle

It's not. The Simon & Garfunkel release was called "Scarborough Fair\Canticle" because it is two songs in one. "Canticle", sung by Garfunkel in counterpoint to Simon singing the ballad, contains the lines "On the side of a hill in a deep forest green" and "Tracing of sparrow on snow-crested ground" and is a reworking of an earlier Simon song called "The Side of a Hill".

There is something haunting about unaccompanied Gaelic psalms though.



What differentiates a hymn from a religious song - that's a hard one. 'Morning has broken' just isn't a hymn to my mind, 'Lord of the Dance' also, and the modern stuff, what little I've heard is pap but that's possibly a function of age: only the ones I remember from my churchgoing (well, really new hat showing-off, to be honest) days qualify. Perhaps I feel a kind of sanctity deriving from age and memory attaches to them. I'm another who, on the rare occasions I'm in a situation where there's hymns being sung, refuse to open the hymnal while belting out the 'proper' ones and keep my lips tightly and disapprovingly shut if its a new one.

I wanted to comment this evening, have a lot to say about hymns, especially to MM, but sadly already again that late...
I wanted to interfere with the comment that of course the Gregorian music is no competition to the "modern" 16th century Protestant music...nevertheless I heard occasionally with the "big events" some modern Dutch hymns that are worth hearing at least in my ears  ...
I wanted also, and I think it is personal, to say that I am more for the "modern" Roman-Catholic "exuberant" style as the "Dies Irae", the "Alleluia", and all the other hymns full of "wild" (I mean the concept: "in a state of extreme emotional intensity") music.
Did a check on the internet for modern Dutch language church music and found this:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEF17360C9B3F0AE2


Rather boring in my personal opinion...
Perhaps this "has" something...?:




And I found this one rather good:



And I even don't know if it is Protestant (Calvinism) or Roman-Catholic...   Because they have such similar words...

In a haste...and kind regards....from Paul...

Meles meles wrote:

I know hymns are defined in the dictionary as being any song of praise but I feel that it isn't really a hymn unless it's in the vernacular language and intended to be sung communally ... which, to my mind, rules out Gregorian chant, and all the corpus of canticles, cantatas, anthems and oratorios sung in Latin. I'm pretty sure that many English hymns and carols can be dated back to the middle ages but I assume these were never used liturgically since church services were always exclusively in Latin. I assume it was the leading lights of the Protestant Reformation that encouraged vernacular congregational singing ... along with all the services and Bible readings in the local language. Certainly Martin Luther himself was a dab hand at composing hymns in his native German: Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott (A Mighty Fortress Is Our God) is one of his. I note that certain Protestant sects still only sing unaccompanied, ie. a cappella (which interestingly means literally: "as in the manner of the chapel") since they say there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the Psalms were ever performed with instrumental accompagnement.

Meles meles,

alreday some days ago I wanted to comment to your message and I see now that I already answered a bit in my last messages.
Just to say that I fully understand what you mean...I said to not speak about content to not fall in a trap of Catholic-Prostestant discussions, but here is "content" relevant, has people singing the song have to at least understand what they are singing and are not moved by the music alone, music which is nevertheless important too. And I agree the full and rich experience is the combination of the singing in group, the worth of the text and the beuty of the music? I thought it was that what you meant...?

Hesitating already some days...as from the continent and not "that" Anglo-Saxon...some voice and melody playing in the brain...and not sure if it was a hymn...something like: forwards Christian soldiers...
Found finally this evening the tilme to do some small research...and it is "onwards" instead of "forwards"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onward,_Christian_Soldiers



Edited once to move the invalid video into a new one...

Kind regards and with esteem,

Paul.

Paul, I didn't intend to compare hymns with, say Gregorian chant, and I certainly didn't mean to say one was inferior to the other, I was really just saying that in an English context, to me hymns implies communal singing usually in English. Actually I would almost never through choice sit and listen to any hymn for pleasure, but I might well listen to some Gregorian chant, Vespers, an arrangement of Dies Irae or Gloria in Excelsis Deo etc. Though I don't particularly like to listen to classic English hymns, I do nervertheless have a certain "fondness" for them based on previous over-familiarity. They are also good to sing to, especially when one knows most of the words which I rarely do for popular songs.

They can also be quite good for timing things - one verse of "Onward Christian Soldiers", lasts almost exactly 60 seconds. Accordingly my mother used to reckon four verses was just right for a soft-boiled egg. I used to find that a bit too long and that the yolks were not sufficiently runny for my taste .... but then she did take the pace a bit andantino to my mind.

Incidentally the music of "Onward Christian Soldiers" was written by Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert & Sullivan comc opera fame.

MM wrote:

They can also be quite good for timing things - one verse of "Onward Christian Soldiers", lasts almost exactly 60 seconds. Accordingly my mother used to reckon four verses was just right for a soft-boiled egg. I used to find that a bit too long and that the yolks were not sufficiently runny for my taste .... but then she did take the pace a bit andantino to my mind."

What a useful culinary tip. The atheists can search in vain: there is nothing in Richard Dawkins that will help with the boiling of an egg. I shall sing this rousing hymn tomorrow morning when I prepare my breakfast, MM. I too prefer a nicely runny yolk, so I presume alla marcia would be the correct tempo?

I don't suppose you could also recommend a hymn for achieving the perfect pasta al dente?  

Meles meles wrote:

Paul, I didn't intend to compare hymns with, say Gregorian chant, and I certainly didn't mean to say one was inferior to the other, I was really just saying that in an English context, to me hymns implies communal singing usually in English. Actually I would almost never through choice sit and listen to any hymn for pleasure, but I might well listen to some Gregorian chant, Vespers, an arrangement of Dies Irae or Gloria in Excelsis Deo etc. Though I don't particularly like to listen to classic English hymns, I do nervertheless have a certain "fondness" for them based on previous over-familiarity. They are also good to sing to, especially when one knows most of the words which I rarely do for popular songs.

They can also be quite good for timing things - one verse of "Onward Christian Soldiers", lasts almost exactly 60 seconds. Accordingly my mother used to reckon four verses was just right for a soft-boiled egg. I used to find that a bit too long and that the yolks were not sufficiently runny for my taste .... but then she did take the pace a bit andantino to my mind.

Incidentally the music of "Onward Christian Soldiers" was written by Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert & Sullivan comc opera fame.

Meles meles,

thank you for your immediate reply...
As an aside (in the margin? dans la marge)...how I envy you, as I learned from messages overhere, your in depth knowledge of subjects concerning music...as the same for Temperance...if I remember it well...or was it also LIR? And I... can't even sing...  

A humble Paul, in admiration for all the talents overhere...

And I have not yet spoken about the "humour" on this site...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
 

For the perfect  pasta, Temps, try singing along with Vivaldi's Gloria -RV585 - to the end of the Laudamus Te. The words are said to be a 4thC Mass hymn... I have no idea what that means. A chant, perhaps? Enchanting music anyway. I first sang this in choir 40 years ago and still enthralled by it. Timing to a recording will, however, depend on the conductor. Some start at such a whizz speed at the exhilarating intro that one wonders who will win. However, there are what in jazz are called 'pregnant pauses' and in choir I recall being told to watch for the white of the conductor's eyes for next entry. Not being a musician, I confess that once saying that I found an entry a trial the conductor scoffed, "Can't you count 28 bars? Good grief!" I enjoy this piece so much that I probably know all the parts by now. I even like the words!

Actually, the "Canticle" bit of the S&G Scarborough Fair is the counter-text. Despite Paul Simon claiming the main song that's the bit he actually wrote.
The part in brackets here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4e-FV4P1aU

I'm still confused as to why he used the word "canticle" which usually means "a nonmetrical hymn derived from a biblical text other than a psalm."

I suppose Simon was going right back to the root of the word: the Latin "canticum" simply means "song" and "canticle" comes from the diminutive "canticulum" which means "little song".

BTW - Most if not all the "Virginalist" school (Byrd, Bull, the Farnabys, Tomkins etc) were producing liturgical works up to the death of the last named, during the lifetime of John Blow, Purcell's (and Jeremiah Clarke's) teacher, so I can't really see there was the hiatus suggested earlier in the topic.

Non sequitur :
We used to have to attend church every Sunday morning when I was at school, and have a visiting preacher to ruin Sunday evening for all the boarders. After a while, they had to be warned off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pigh8VHr-ZE as the response was a semi-audible groan, followed not so much by a rendering as a rending. Still hate it - and it seems to be a favourite funeral hymn (have told my family I want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYRuh8V94zo played as my coffin goes down on the crematorium lift)

PaulRyckier wrote:

Meles meles wrote:

Paul, I didn't intend to compare hymns with, say Gregorian chant, and I certainly didn't mean to say one was inferior to the other, I was really just saying that in an English context, to me hymns implies communal singing usually in English. Actually I would almost never through choice sit and listen to any hymn for pleasure, but I might well listen to some Gregorian chant, Vespers, an arrangement of Dies Irae or Gloria in Excelsis Deo etc. Though I don't particularly like to listen to classic English hymns, I do nervertheless have a certain "fondness" for them based on previous over-familiarity. They are also good to sing to, especially when one knows most of the words which I rarely do for popular songs.

They can also be quite good for timing things - one verse of "Onward Christian Soldiers", lasts almost exactly 60 seconds. Accordingly my mother used to reckon four verses was just right for a soft-boiled egg. I used to find that a bit too long and that the yolks were not sufficiently runny for my taste .... but then she did take the pace a bit andantino to my mind.

Incidentally the music of "Onward Christian Soldiers" was written by Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert & Sullivan comc opera fame.

Meles meles,

thank you for your immediate reply...
As an aside (in the margin? dans la marge)...how I envy you, as I learned from messages overhere, your in depth knowledge of subjects concerning music...as the same for Temperance...if I remember it well...or was it also LIR? And I... can't even sing...  

A humble Paul, in admiration for all the talents overhere...

And I have not yet spoken about the "humour" on this site...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
 

Knowledge concerning music must have been Temperance, PR.  I know what I like and don't like in music but don't have much education in the subject. I tried to teach myself the guitar many years ago and failed abysmally.  I can just about pick out a tune on the descant recorder but I don't think the Dolmesch family have much to worry about....I've sung in choirs in the past but tried to be next to someone who could pitch and sight read (which I can't do).

Hymns and National anthems: So Jerusalem  as well as for the Women's Institute, it is  England's  national anthem - this I did not know until these Games. How long has that been so? It must be politically confounding to anyone who hears the words with no idea of the - eeeeh I must try this the er -story arc behind it. Which makes it about right for England - confounding, I mean....

(I mean.......... yeah, I mean etc .....is also used  alot by athletes when on a rabbiting high just after a race... I mean. Another I mean and I'll scream, I mean.)

Then there's the Australian anthem. It sounds to me much like 'All Glory Laud and Honour' the Easter hymn. Actually, on reflection, it seems to me that there's only a thinly cut slice of ham between most anthems and hymns.

We were surprised to hear Jerusalem as England's national song, too, Priscilla.  But I suppose God Save the Queen doesn't differentiate between England, Scotland and Wales.  Scotland has won its fair share of medals but I can't recall seeing any of them on the podium so don't know which song they are using.  Flower of Scotland, I suppose.  Naturally I take most notice of the one I know best, E Ihowa Atua (God Defend New Zealand) - it has come up relatively often but we would be happy to hear it a bit more.

'Flower of Scotland'! Don't start me. That was fine in a smoky folk club but as a national anthem - I think not. I'd go for 'Freedom Come A' Ye', did you hear Pumeza singing it at the Opening Ceremony? It's a pity they didn't put up the words - or a translation at least!



The Freedom Come All Ye
This magnificent song was written by Hamish Henderson in 1960 for the peace marchers at the Holy Loch near Glasgow. The tune is the World War I pipe march, ‘The Bloody Fields of Flanders’.



Roch the wind in the clear day’s dawin

Blaws the cloods heelster-gowdie ow’r the bay

But there’s mair nor a roch wind blawin

Through the great glen o the warld the day.



It’s a thocht that will gar oor rottans

A’ they rogues that gang gallus, fresh and gay -

Tak the road and seek ither loanins

For their ill ploys, tae sport and play



Nae mair will the bonnie callants

Mairch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw,

Nor wee weans frae pit-heid and clachan

Mourn the ships sailin doon the Broomielaw.



Broken faimlies in lands we’ve herriet

Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair;

Black and white, ane til ither mairriet

Mak the vile barracks o their maisters bare



So come all ye at hame wi Freedom,

Never heed whit the hoodies croak for doom

In your hoose a' the bairns o Adam

Can find breid, barley-bree and painted room.



When MacLean meets wi’s freens in Springburn

A' the roses and geans will turn tae bloom,

And a black boy frae yont Nyanga

Dings the fell gallows o the burghers doon.

Addendum to the previous message.

Ferval, did seek for " the bloody fields of Flanders"



And look in the middle there is something others than a cross...

Have to admit that I prefer Pumeza...from a musical point of view...

Kind regards from Paul.