I believe here in Germany, the perception is that it was special compared to other genocides, not simply because of the numbers of dead, but the calculation behind it.
It wasn't as if some guys had a few too much drinks until one said "you know what, let's get our axes and kill those *******s" and then it swept over to thousands of other people who got caught in the euphoria and saw opportunities to settle some old scores and make some political gains from the chaos. Sure, on the eastern front German soldiers did the usual roundups of people they found and shot them on the spot, just like any other genocid. But in Germany it was lots of politicans and state employees getting together in big conferences, setting up plans to build dozens of corpse disposal facilities, logistical infrastructure for moving millions of people, calculating and allocating budgets for the construction, finding suppliers who could deliver building materials in sufficient quantities, and providing housing for the staff. That staff also had to be managed, so things could run smoothly when some of them went on vacation or sick leave, and so on. Of course, you also had to figure out who could deliver the toxic chemicals in the required quantities, how to store them properly according to health and safety regulations, and so on. And of course the hundreds of accountants you needed to take care of all the paper work. That's a completely different dimension of murder. That wasn't mass violent crime out of hatred and anger. It was thousands of people who agreed that the current situation would be best solved by killing millions of children, so you are rid of those people once and for all.
I found also the question of the Turkish Efendi thought provoking: (post 292 January 16th)
We talk about holocaust to understand It, when we understand It we will not attack our personaities, we will atack our ideas.
Are the ideas that preponderant in the story even more than the willing perpetrators? The perpetrators using the ideas as to their own intentions to legitimate their acts? That are my first thoughts. I have still to reiterate in depth the whole thinking over...
I have not seen fully the 56 minutes documentary "Memory of the camps" but from what I have seen it is the same as what was shown in the ARTE documentary...really leaving a lasting impression...at least to me...and I have seen already that much footage about the camps...
Kind regards, Paul.
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Mon 19 Jan 2015, 08:35
I saw the Hitchcock/Bernstein footage before, obviously in its unrestored state, and remember the Trevor Howard narration of the original scripted commentary. I found the latter to be badly composed, even by the standards of the day, lapsing into quite unnecessary hyperbole and extremely judgemental criticism of "ordinary Germans" when the images alone were already doing a much better job of indictment. In fact I can see why it wasn't put out on general release - as the Independent article says the delay in its post-production meant that even by late 1945, when it was ready for distribution, the value of showing it to a demoralised population in a country in dire need of reconstruction was moot.
In a more modern context, especially in that of the peculiar stupidity that is called "holocaust denial", these visual documents still have a very valuable role to play as evidence of atrocity on an almost unimaginably large scale. However it is a long time since I have seen them being used on TV except in presentations bordering on the voyeuristic, tending to milk the "shock horror" aspect for as much as it's worth and with minimal examination of the historical context in which it occurred - and in some ways is not actually over yet. We are living with the holocaust still, in many different ways.
ferval Censura
Posts : 2602 Join date : 2011-12-27
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Mon 19 Jan 2015, 09:18
Tomorrow night this is being broadcast on BBC 2 and I understand that some of that original footage is incorporated into the production. It's part of their 'Holocaust Memorial Season', is it just me that finds that tag somehow really distasteful? Nevertheless, I'm hopeful of it being worth watching.
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Mon 19 Jan 2015, 09:51
It's been a while since it was last on tv , but there was a programme, The Wannsee Conference with Kenneth Branagh in the lead role as Adolf Eichmann, which shows the emotionless bureaucratic organisation behind the Holocaust that Yora talks about in Paul's OP.
Triceratops Censura
Posts : 4377 Join date : 2012-01-05
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Mon 19 Jan 2015, 09:59
It was actually called Conspiracy and Branagh was Heydrich not Eichmann;
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Mon 19 Jan 2015, 21:08
nordmann wrote:
I saw the Hitchcock/Bernstein footage before, obviously in its unrestored state, and remember the Trevor Howard narration of the original scripted commentary. I found the latter to be badly composed, even by the standards of the day, lapsing into quite unnecessary hyperbole and extremely judgemental criticism of "ordinary Germans" when the images alone were already doing a much better job of indictment. In fact I can see why it wasn't put out on general release - as the Independent article says the delay in its post-production meant that even by late 1945, when it was ready for distribution, the value of showing it to a demoralised population in a country in dire need of reconstruction was moot.
Nordmann,
yes I have now seen the Trevor Howard film in full (to be honest with the cursor skipping over each time some two or three minutes). First time I did only here and there some checks to see if it was the same mentioned in the ARTE documentary. And yes you are completely right, when you say: " I found the latter to be badly composed, even by the standards of the day, lapsing into quite unnecessary hyperbole and extremely judgemental criticism of "ordinary Germans" when the images alone were already doing a much better job of indictment." But the ARTE documentary that I have seen was completely otherwise, well narrated and with an intelligent approach. In fact there were above the fragments of the film some 30 or more minutes with interviews and context. How lucky I was to only give the link of the ARTE documentary in the Holocaust thread on Historum and not this stupid Trevor Howard approach.
And as I read the comments about the documentary "Night will fall" to be broadcasted on 27 January, this will also much better than the Trevor film:
We talk about holocaust to understand It, when we understand It we will not attack our personaities, we will atack our ideas.
Are the ideas that preponderant in the story even more than the willing perpetrators? The perpetrators using the ideas as to their own intentions to legitimate their acts? That are my first thoughts. I have still to reiterate in depth the whole thinking over..."
And now I join the Temperance-Nordmann discussion of the "Je suis Charlie" thread. And I know I am on shaking grounds, but trying to organize my thoughts...
Joining Temperance about the political/religious story... There are two types of politicians: those who don't believe essentially what they promise to the followers, but see it in the struggle of negociating with other parties, a play of "gave and take" with the purpose to come to a compromise for the best of the several parties, especially the own party and the politicians that they are themselves? And secondly the political zealots with a mission, who believe themselves in their "mission" and who want to impose their doctrinal belief on the rest, pushing their followers to even eliminate lifely their opponents?
And always seeking for parallels in the several Fascisms (an ongoing search in different fora) I come with that again to a minimum essential common factor: the use of a nearly religious program adhered by the leading perpertrators to seek for the fulfilment of their message.
Kind regards, Paul.
PS: Parallax, don't seek it too deep, I have only done some chemical studies, not even university...
Triceratops Censura
Posts : 4377 Join date : 2012-01-05
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Tue 20 Jan 2015, 15:25
This is the radio broadcast by Richard Dimbleby from April 1945 about the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp:
Gilgamesh of Uruk Censura
Posts : 1560 Join date : 2011-12-27
Subject: Re: Liberation of the dead camps Germany Poland WWII Tue 20 Jan 2015, 16:49
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