I wasn't sure whether to post this here or 'Religion and Superstition', but since strongly involves on how people choose to interpret history and myth I thought I'd try here.

Since childhood I have been fascinated by the Order of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, aka the Knights Templar.  However, what I have found fascinating is the extraordinary real story, about an order of warrior monks who rose to become one of the most powerful institutions in Christendom before coming to a sudden and spectacular downfall in the early 14th century, their story essentially ending with the burning of the last Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, in 1314.  However, they have become obscured by a vast body of mythology, legend and conspiracy theories. 

Last year I did a talk on the Order.  The first half dealt primarily with the origins, organisation and fall of the Order.  The second half was dedicated to debunking some of the main myths:
- The lost Templar treasure.
- The secret artefacts the Order recovered from the Holy Land (including the Turin Shroud and the Holy Grail).
- The Priory of Sion.
- Their esoteric and/or heretical knowledge and practices.
- Their connection to the Freemasons.
- Their connection to the Rosslyn Chapel.
- Their alleged survival today.
- Their connection to aliens (and the Jedi!)

I hoped I'd done a convincing job.  However, immediately afterwards one of the audience came up and confided that he was convinced the Templars still existed (although he was unable to offer any evidence).

Today, friends have been bombarding me with news of the 'rediscovery' of a cave system in Shropshire which - according to the rather excitable reports - are believed to have been used by Templars in hiding during the 14th century 'persecutions' and perhaps beyond.  The cave system is rather splendid, I'll grant you, but I've yet to see anything to link the caves to the Templars - no inscriptions, no pictures of carvings with alleged Templar significance, let alone the word of an archaeologist or historian.

What is about the poor Poor Knights that makes them such magnets for conspiracy and myth-making?  More generally, where does the desire to mythologise history come from?  In some cases it's obvious: for example, a need for a hero, a desire to gloss over some unsavoury aspect of the past, or even simple nostalgia.  But - apart from a time when the Crusaders were widely considered (in the West, at least) a Good Thing, the Templars do not fit easily into any of these categories.  I understand that modern-day Templars are the villains of the Assassin's Creed game franchise, with descendants of the Assassins as the heroes.  (I do, incidentally, think it ironic that in this day and age a successful series of video games and now a movie feature heroes who are members of what was in essence one of the earliest Islamic terrorist groups!)

I agree - why would they have been hiding in a cave in England? Unlike in France there was no wholesale persecution of the order, though Edward (who, unlike Philip, wasn't in hock to them so really didn't give a toss either way) eventually succumbed to pressure from the pope & Co and insisted that they disband. For the most part the celibates then became either Hospitallers or Cistercians, and the lay members simply carried on banking.

The Royston cave in Hertfordshire, which sounds like it may also be the "inspiration" behind any similar cave in Shropshire, is the one traditionally associated with the Templars, though that association has absolutely no basis in historically attested fact either.

One artificial cave (ie. cellar) that has some attestable association however is the one under Hertford Castle which on one recorded occasion was used as a prison cell for four Templars from nearby Dinsley. The local baron reckoned the lads had hidden treasure without offering him a cut and got Edward to sign an arrest warrant. They hadn't any treasure and were eventually released.

I think people like an air of mystery - or perhaps even to think they are "in the know" - hence why there are people who believe in conspiracy theories. I was once instructed to "Wake up and smell the coffee" when I said that I thought the late Princess Diana's death was what it seemed to be - a very unfortunate accident. I don't know a great deal about the Templars - except what I've sometimes come across in historical novels but nowadays I tend to treat historical novels as an occasional "fun" read and don't ascribe historical fidelity to the facts to them. On another thread I rambled on a bit one day about some YouTube videos I'd been watching (I was convalescing and had time on my hands). I'd clicked by mistake on to one of those "Illuminati" videos and you know, the spirit was willing (to do something more sensible) but the flesh it was weak and I kept clicking on these very silly videos - an analogy I've used before is one known too much chocolate at once isn't good for one but the chocolate box is s-o-o-o-o tempting. Anyway, I watched a number of these strange videos and it is surprising what some people assert. Somebody said that Beyonce's daughter's name "Blue Ivy" - meant daughter of Lucifer in Latin. Unless Latin has changed since I was at school d---- of L----- in Latin is something like filia Luciferi (so many years since I did Latin at school and I only just scraped a pass at O level). The YouTube conspiracy theorists obviously hadn't heard about Anglo-Nordman's debunking of the Templars connection to the freemasons because it was repeated!

I wonder if the interest in the Templars has anything to do with the reports of them (very likely it seems such reports being spurious) having allegedly concealed treasure. Maybe (way back when) thinking of finding buried treasure was a fantasy for ordinary (and not wealthy) folk much as winning the pools - or more lately the lottery - subsequently became. Very occasionally people make finds (nothing to do with the Templars I know) such as Sutton Hoo and The Staffordshire Hoard. Not that I've ever been out with a metal detector but I think I've said the only metal I've ever detected in Staffordshire has been things like rusty tin cannisters.

The "local baron" mentioned by Nordmann in his final paragraph above sounds like the stereotypical "robber baron" - though I guess if the Templars in question had no treasure there was nothing he could rob.

Off topic completely, but Anglo-Norman, do people in the Channel Islands speak Norman French anymore? I heard that it had rather died out when the (then) children were evacuated during Word War II but I've never actually been to the Channel Islands (and I don't think watching reruns of "Bergerac" before my TV went bump count).

Templar treasure was a powerful meme for many centuries after they were disbanded - no great surprise given their reputation for wealth and the suddenness of their dissolution. In Dublin the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham is built on an old Templar monastery site. It was said that during the demolition of the old ruins when preparing the site a previously unknown underground chamber was discovered, its door sealed. The then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Earl of Ormonde, forbade anyone else open it, and then he and a few friends did the deed in private. After they were finished the room was found indeed to be empty, though Ormonde remained tight lipped for the rest of his days about whether he had found stuff or not. Mind you, Ormonde had a reputation for having a giggle at other people's expense, so it's anyone's guess now.

The meme didn't stop with that either - a good treasure story is apparently hard to kill once it gets started. For the next few centuries that the Hospital was in use there were several stories about hidden cellars etc being "discovered" by staff and inmates, and as recently as in the 80s a member of the Board Of Works who was renovating the building informed me over a pint of "strange things going on in the cellars at night" involving ghost knights, rattling chains, moans and groans, and so on, ending with that he reckoned they were Templars still "guarding their treasure".

Mind you, the Royal Hospital was a spooky place at the time anyway - the overgrown and dilapidated central courtyard was where the state stored all the old British Rule statues that had been removed from public locations. I used to work next door to it and had access, so often ate my lunch sitting between several Victorias, William of Oranges and a few anonymous dignitaries with handlebar moustaches and tail coats.

It's been done up now and looks smashing ...

That's an interesting story, Nordmann and the restored Royal Hospital does look impressive now going by the photo. I took an online shorthand dictation shorthand class tonight - not that I'm improving my speed, just keeping it ticking over - but the lady doing the dictations had taken some pieces from newspapers to give us practice (with shorthand being a declining skill there are not many modern books of dictation pieces). Anyway, one of the pieces she dictated was about the "templar" caves near Shifnal and apparently (I can't remember who or what his/her qualifications were) someone is now saying they probably date from the 18th or 19th century so not quite contemporaneous with the Templars if that's true. Apparently there is a theory the caves could have been used for black magic - urgh that gives me the creeps.

I have visited (mind you it was over 20 years ago) Hawkstone Park in Weston-under-Redcastle in Shropshire where the 1988 TV Narnia series was filmed. Not quite New Zealand but it was beautiful - nothing to do with Templars though as far as I understand it http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/content/articles/2005/12/08/hawkstone_narnia_feature.shtml

Often these so-called Templar caves are extremely elaborate, not the sort of thing a group of desperate fugitive monks would be taking refuge in, even if they needed to.  They must have been carved until more peaceable circumstances.  If the Templars were orthodox in their beliefs there was no reason for them to have underground chapels, so such features would suggest heresy - but there's no real proof that they towed anything but the official line.  The matter of their most famous alleged heresy - that they worshipped an idol known as the Baphomet - is a case in point: I find it very telling that none of the Templars forced into a confession seemed able to agree on just what the Baphomet was!

The other reason for their caverns might be if the Order secretly continued after their official dissolution, but again there's no proof - and no point.  Their entire raison d'etre required them to be able to operate openly.  Unless, I suppose, they had a secret purpose instead, but again, where's the evidence?

Hunting for the Templar treasure remains a popular pastime for some.  The so-called Oak Island Money Pit off Nova Scotia is one alleged location.  In reality much of the Templars' wealth was tied up in land, and whatever money existed was, I imagine, handed over to the Hospitallers (as it was supposed to be) or snaffled by the civil authorities.  King Philip IV went to the Temple treasury in Paris and found it bare, according to an eyewitness report - that eyewitness being a chap by the name of King Philip IV.  Not suspicious at all...

LadyinRetirement, there are very few in the Channel Islands who still speak their native tongues fluently, the majority being relatively elderly.  Auregnais (once spoken in Alderney) has entirely died out, as has the form spoken in Herm.  Jèrriais (spoken in Jersey), Guernésiais (spoken in Guernsey) and Sercquiais (spoken in Sark, though strictly speaking a dialect of Jèrriais) are still clinging on. You are right that the Occupation had a severe impact, as many children (as you say) were evacuated to the mainland and thus spent a formative part of their youth having to mostly speak English.  Furthermore, more than ever the Islands have become less isolated from the UK.  It is thought, however, that the large numbers of British troops stationed in the Islands during the late 18th/early 19th centuries had already contributed to a decline.  Private organisations, and more recently the governments, have made efforts to preserve the languages.  People who wish to learn the local language, however, inevitably tend to be taught a standardised version.  There were once numerous 'dialects' of Jèrriais despite the small size of the Island, with some differences quite marked: an example often cited is that in the west the word for spider is pêtre, but in the east it is aithangnie - such differences will die out, though.  The different languages are (with a little work) mutually intelligible, and a Channel Islander speaking their patois would be able to have a conversation with a speaker of 'proper' Norman-French.

Thank you for the comprehensive information about the native tongues on the Channel Islands, Anglo-Norman.

Now I've come across an article that says that the "Templar" caves were not unknown but that they were sealed up in 2009 to try and discourage vandalism.  http://www.snopes.com/knights-templar-caves-shropshire/

Just reading through my earlier post, I wonder if by linking to the article about Hawkstone Park I made it sound as if the caves in Hawkstone Park were the "Templar" caves.  Of course, they were not, the only thing they have in common with the allegedly "Templar" caves is that they are in Shropshire.  (My home county shares a boundary with Shropshire though I haven't been over that way for quite some time).


Edited 12.3.17 to insert a missing word.

Thanks for the link, LadyinRetirement - most enlightening!  I rather suspected it was a folly (in more ways than one, perhaps?).  I realised you didn't mean Hawkstone.  It's a place I've visited myself, as a child - we used to go to Shropshire a lot as - although I consider myself a Jerseyman through and through - my father's family have come from Shrewsbury for generations; my earliest recorded ancestor on that side was a blacksmith in the Abbey Foregate in the 1370s (I wonder if his grandfather knew any subterranean Templars...) and I am an Hereditary Freeman of Shrewsbury.  Sadly the government have taken away my rights - I  can no longer drive my sheep across the Welsh Bridge and graze them in the Quarry, no can I make a quick buck by corruptly administering my tax gathering rights.  On the plus side, at least the Queen can no longer insist I carry my pike in defence of the Crown.

The Royston Cave, which nordmann mentioned earlier, has lots of interesting carvings that - with more than a little imagination - can be interpreted as Templar.  The only link to the Shropshire caves is apparently local legend, which according to the BBC, says the Templars used them in the 17th(!) century - is that really what the legend says, or is the Beeb clouding the issue further by fluffing the date?  And had old is the the legend, anyway?

I think their admittedly secretive nature (for entirely practical reasons), elite status and dramatic fall are all contributing factors to the Templars' popularity with conspiracy theorists and pseudo-historians.  I also suspect that once something has been established within the conspiracy world it becomes a lightening rod for more and more theories.  For example: one genuine claim is that the Jedi Knights were based on the Templars, which is part of the evidence for a massive Masonic conspiracy in Hollywood. Another genuine claim is that the Rosslyn Chapel was a landing platform for spaceships.  It won't take long for me to weave together a narrative proving that the real people who adhere to the Jedi religion are secretly Templars who travelled from a galaxy far, far away landed their ship in Scotland a long time ago, and are preparing the ground for when the Trade Federation travels across time and space to ally themselves with the Capitalist Freemasons to rule the Earth with their army of Battle Droids!  Or something.  Now, if only I can find a symbol in the Royston Cave that looks like the Jedi logo...

But seriously, we're always going to be faced with people who don't want to accept that facts.  If I may quote the conclusion of my own talk:

Quote :

I daresay my analysis could be challenged: Perhaps the evidence has been tampered with.  Perhaps my religious beliefs have prejudiced me.  Perhaps studying history in an academic background has closed my mind to less conventional possibilities.  Perhaps I am even an agent of a secret society descended from the Templars, and am even now trying to steer you away from the shocking truth we have guarded for centuries!  Or maybe – just maybe – the Templars were the remarkable but wholly orthodox Order of Christian warrior-monks they claimed to be, whose wealth came from careful investment and the gifts of the faithful, whose downfall was not brought about by their heretical knowledge but the simple avarice and lust for power of a French king, and whose story ended with the execution of Jacques de Molay, last Grand Master, in 1314.

Terry Pratchett once wrote that no-one is actually dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away.  In that sense, perhaps, the Templars might indeed be said to live on.  Ultimately, though, in my view the real story of the Order of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon is a truly extraordinary one, and nothing the conspiracy theorists and pseudo-historians have come up with has yet outshone it.  And that, ladies and gentlemen, is perhaps the Templars’ greatest legacy.

We can try to demonstrate the folly of such theories where we can, but I think in the end sometimes there's nothing to be done but stand back, shaking our heads an muttering (as we say in Jersey) "Mouôn Doue!  Tchi niolîn!" ("My God!  What rubbish!")

Well didn't some folk put their religion as "Jedi" in the most recent UK census? I know it was just a joke. (I hope it was).

Anglo-Norman said "Ultimately, though, in my view the real story of the Order of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon is a truly extraordinary one, and nothing the conspiracy theorists and pseudo-historians have come up with has yet outshone it. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is perhaps the Templars’ greatest legacy." It does seem a shame that people have to put forward spurious theories. I wonder sometimes if the conspiracy theorists are hoaxers - I remember a feature appearing - about a society with the aim of clothing naked animals - on the "Tonight" programme (the one with Cliff Michelmore that was on light-years ago) and it was later revealed to be a hoax, a prank http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_society_for_indecency_to_naked_animals

I see A-N has referenced the Baphomet. That was mentioned in some of the "Illuminati" videos I saw on YouTube (my excuse is that I was convalescing at the time and I'm sticking to that). Another thing that was referenced (not particularly in connection with the Templars to be fair) was celebrities making a 666 sign with their hands - but I couldn't help thinking that when the Bible was written 666 would have been written VI VI VI (though probably not with the spaces) - I don't think Arab numbers were in use in the "western" world at the time of the writing of the Bible but if I am wrong I'm sure somebody will notify me.

Whilst I daresay some of the theories are hoaxes (the Priory of Sion bloodline nonsense began as a hoax which got out of hand, after all), sadly it's too widespread for all the 'conspiracies'to be hoaxes.  Much as we'd like to think better of the human race, many are all to ready ready to swallow it.

The Revelation to John would originally have been written in Greek.  The (or rather a) Greek version renders 666 in the numerals χξς which would (I think) be quite hard to do with your hands, unless there's such a thing as Ancient Greek sign language.  Curiously, my New Revised Standard Version translation renders it in long-hand ("six hundred and sixty-six"); I'm not sure if that's a stylistic choice or if one of the Greek versions writes it out in full.  Just to add to the confusion, though, it does add a footnote saying "Other ancient authorities read six hundred and sixteen", so these sinister celebrities might be signing completely the wrong number anyway.  The poor Second Beast will be terribly muddled by the time the Apocalypse happens.

In Roman numerals 666 would usually have been written as DCLXVI ie using one of each letter a bit like writing 123456789 and there is evidence that as such it was sometimes used figuratively just to mean an undefined yet very big number.

Where is everybody?  I miss Temperance's contributions to the Moggy Thread.  I don't know if I ever mentioned this before but it seems the White Witches believed they stopped Germany invading England! [url=https://www.thoughtco.com %E2%80%BA Humanities %E2%80%BA History & Culture %E2%80%BA European History 25 Oct 2017 - He said, %E2%80%9CWitches did cast spells, to stop Hitler landing after France fell.]https://www.thoughtco.com › Humanities › History & Culture › European History 25 Oct 2017 - He said, “Witches did cast spells, to stop Hitler landing after France fell. [/url]   Crumbs, think of all the money spent on the war effort that could have been saved it folk had but known that the "good" witches had the outcome of the war all in hand.

Thinking of the various warrior knights in times past, I think the first aid society in the UK the St John's Ambulance takes its name from one such order.  When I was run home from hospital both after having a low red corpuscle count (later found to be because of coeliac disease) and when I had broken my humerus last December I was taken home by St John Ambulance volunteers.  Anglo-Norman had the right of it when saying (I'm paraphrasing here I know) that a juicy conspiracy theory often appeals more than the truth.  Such a pity when the true story of the warrior monks is interesting in its own right but then in the recent Versailles series - which has been discussed on other threads - real and colourful historical personages such as the Mancini sisters were cut out as was M. de Montespan's affixing antlers to his carriage (after the King took M. de M---'s wife to be his mistress) and contrived fake stories (or at best took somewhat suspicious rumours and ran with them) inserted.

As Baphomet seems to be a popular figure in conspiracy theories I looked the word up on Wikipedia (which I know isn't always totally reliable) and it doesn't seem to have been in existence before Phillipe le Bel "took down" the Templars  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet  The Wikipedia entry isn't quite War and Peace but it is long.  One theory posited for the origin of the word on that site is that it might have been a mishearing of "Mohammed" at the time of the Crusades.

While I'm here does anyone know of a (sensible) book about the history of the warrior knights - or even a sensible blog or website I could look at the subject of the Templars/Knights of St John et al history?

Hullo Lady,

If you could bear a historical novel, I'd recommend Swedish author Jan Guillou's trilogy on a knight templar - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades_trilogy

I can't comment on the English translation as I've only read the Danish one, and I don't trust my Swedish to read that much.

I suggest the imaginatively titled The Templars by Piers Paul Read, or the doorstop that is John J Robinson's Dungeon, Fire and Sword.

Alan Forey's The Military Orders is useful and includes the other key Orders like the Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, but is subject-based (purpose, logistics, organisation etc) rather than a historical narrative and only goes up to the 14th century.

Osprey Publishing do Knight Templar 1120-1312, Knight Hospitaller (1): 1100-1306, Knight Hospitaller (2): 1306-1565 and Teutonic Knight 1190-1561 but they're a bit pricy for fairly slim volumes and focus on military aspects. Another Osprey book, The Knights of Christ is slightly dated but useful in that it includes (very) brief accounts not just of the big Military Orders but also some of the more obscure ones like the Knights of St Lazarus.

AN, I really need to work out how to use my Elonex (poor woman's Kindle) so that I can read some of the heavier tomes without having to lug them from the library (though I do have a trolley thing that I use when I go to the launderette; that could double for bringing heavy books home) but thanks to you and Nielsen for your suggestions.
 
Somebody is coming tomorrow to suss out what needs to be done to repair the flat roof.  I'm trying to do a bit of tidying up before he comes (so less internet for me today).  The hall floor doesn't have a carpet at present and I've trodden the dirt into it somewhat so I'm having a clear up with a thingy for scraping wall paper off walls and some wire wool (which does seem to be working) but just think how much I could have done of such jobs if I had prioritised them instead of getting sidetracked by the more loopy side of YouTube!!!  I think when the roof is sorted - and the window - a replacement carpet (or even mats) is in order for the hallway.  That certain famous people are clones seems to be a popular theory among those inclined to believe theories - though as I said somewhere else I'll give them BoJo and POTUS.

Anglo-Norman wrote:

The first half dealt primarily with the origins

I was going to post this on the On this day in history thread but since it's a conjectural date then it’s probably better here:

16 January 1120 – foundation of the Order of the Knights Templar

The Council of Naples (Nablus in Samaria) was an attempt to bring order to the hitherto lawless Kingdom of Jerusalem. The king, Baldwin II, convened a council between himself and other crusader knights along with the patriarch Guarmond and other clerics which resulted in the framing of a basic law for the kingdom. The term ‘basic law’ is somewhat generous though, as its 25 chapters were mainly concerned with sexual mores, punishing adultery, bigamy, homosexuality and interfaith sex with fines, exile, mutilation and even death. To be fair, some of the chapters offered protection to slaves from being raped by their masters but the overall message of the council’s concordat seems to have been that sex is a bad thing. Chapter 20 of the Concilium Neapolitanum, however, went as follows:

Capitulum xx

Si Clericus causa defensionis arma detuletit culpa non teneatur. Si autem militia aut alicujus curialitatis causa coronam dimiserit, usque ad praedictum terminum Ecclesiae id confessus coronam reddat, & deinceps secundum Patriarchae Praeceptum se habeat. Si autem amplius celaverit, pro Regis & Patriarche consilio se contineat.
 
The first sentence translates as:

No blame shall be held against any cleric who is obliged to defend himself with arms.
             
Before the Crusades, the Church had required knights to do penance for the taking of life during military campaigns. Now it seemed that even priests and monks themselves were being excused when taking up arms. It was a seminal moment in the history of the Church. The rest of Chapter 20 stated that despite this, such clerics were still bound by the ecclesiastical and secular rules of Church and Crown and that the King and the Patriarch would be the arbiters in these cases. The idea of the ‘armed cleric’, however, was established and it was only a small step from this, for Hugues de Payens (a minor French knight present at the Council) to then envisage the parallel concept of a ‘monastic knighthood’ also being given official sanction. His Knights Templar were duly formed and received Papal endorsement in 1139. The Order of St John (which predated the Knights Templar) later adopted an overtly military code themselves as the Knights Hospitaller (but only for some of them) in imitation of the Templars. 25 years after the Council of Clermont and the calling of the First Crusade, the concept of crusading had seemingly reached its logical conclusion – i.e. the exact opposite of the previously supposed Christian ideal.

Vizzer, you spoke about the Order of St. John, which sparked the Knights Hospitaller.

Some twenty five years ago, the daughter in law, having a B&B, recieved many German families, having a member of their family in hospital. While the treatment, as for "Herz Kreislauf" (cardiovascular) diseases was in that time cheaper over here than in the former West-Germany (now they are transmitted to hospitals in the former East-Germany...and there they speak also German...and they are still cheaper than in the former West...)


But back to the Knights Hospitaller...evenings long I spoke with those German families, and they were always speaking about the "Johanniter Orde" about their "Krankenversicherung" (health insurance).


I always thought that that was a Catholic order, but see today I learned that the German one is Protestant...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller

From the wiki:
"Even as it survived on Malta, the Order lost many of its European holdings during the Protestant Reformation. The property of the English branch was confiscated in 1540.^[33] The German Bailiwick of Brandenburg became Lutheran in 1577, then more broadly Evangelical, but continued to pay its financial contribution to the Order until 1812, when the Protector of the Order in Prussia, King Frederick William III, turned it into an order of merit;^[33] in 1852, his son and successor as Protector, King Frederick William IV of Prussia, restored the Johanniterorden to its continuing place as the chief non-Roman Catholic branch of the Knights Hospitaller."


And now they seem all to be under the same umbrella in Brussels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanniter_International


Kind regards, Paul.