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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 28 Jun 2018, 23:24

I didn't watch the football match - in the interests of fair play I should say well done Belgium but I would have liked England to do better.  Still, no use crying over spilt milk.  What I wanted to do though was provide a few links to "Carling Black Label" adverts from "back in the day" - though that was of course but one of Dennis Skinner's quips.  
(I.e. the quip being "I bet he drinks Carling Black Label" not "back in the day").


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 12:18; edited 1 time in total
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Fri 29 Jun 2018, 00:20

@PaulRyckier wrote:
@Nielsen wrote:
As I've forgotten how to find and thus resurrect old threads, I hereby offer to the 'On this day in history' that today, a 115 years ago Erik Arthur Blair, aka George Orwell was born in then Motihari, Bengal Presidency in British India - present day East Champaran, Bihar, India.

A bibliography may be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell_bibliography

Regrettably and due to my inadequacy, in order to see this you'll have to copy and paste into a browser.


Nielsen, old fellow, I hope you will give me consentment to publish your subject in "on this day in history" site.

Yes George Orwell, what a fascinating person. I too, as I am very interested in social implications of society, have a lot read about him as about the Spanish civil war and his thoughts about anarcho socialism, which was merciless surpressed by the Communists on order of Stalin in bloody interfighting...animal farm...1984 and all that...

Kind regards from Paul.

Thank you very much Paul.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 05 Jul 2018, 21:46

@PaulRyckier wrote:
the Belgians were involved

As they were in the very first World Cup in 1930. Belgium was 1 of only 4 European teams which made the trip to Uruguay for the inaugural tournament that year. The other 9 teams all came from the Americas. This made Belgium (along with France, Rumania and Yugoslavia) hugely popular in South America for having honoured the tournament in this way while the likes of Italy, Germany and the British associations stayed aloof. It also gives Belgium a correspondingly long pedigree in the history of the contest.

P.S. Does anyone know what the collective noun is for Swifts? I don't know if they've been drinking Carling Black Label but a family have taken up residence with us this summer and delight in chasing each other around at dawn and at dusk. They give off a squeal while doing so which at dusk sounds like toddlers refusing to go to bed because the sun is still up and being determined to enjoy every last second of daylight. They move so fast that we still haven't worked out exactly where the roost which in a way is quite a good thing and is probably the whole point. For collective noun, therefore, I'll suggest a Squealing of Swifts.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 05 Jul 2018, 21:56

... or how about a scream of swifts or swoop of swifts?

I'm not sure how accurate they are but several online sources suggest it is a box, drift or frenzy of swifts.

When they tear around the house at high speed, squealing and screaming, they (and house martins too) always remind me of teenagers on vespas: showing off and daring each other to go faster or closer to the ground, and taunting the earth-bound cats. Sadly this year however, although they all arrived back en famille from more southerly climes in mid March, I've got no house martens nesting under my eves. I think the unusually cold and damp May weather prompted them to try elsewhere this year. But I do miss them and worry that, since none will have been hatched here this year, they might forget me for next year.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Fri 06 Jul 2018, 23:28

@Vizzer wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:
the Belgians were involved

As they were in the very first World Cup in 1930. Belgium was 1 of only 4 European teams which made the trip to Uruguay for the inaugural tournament that year. The other 9 teams all came from the Americas. This made Belgium (along with France, Rumania and Yugoslavia) hugely popular in South America for having honoured the tournament in this way while the likes of Italy, Germany and the British associations stayed aloof. It also gives Belgium a correspondingly long pedigree in the history of the contest.

P.S. Does anyone know what the collective noun is for Swifts? I don't know if they've been drinking Carling Black Label but a family have taken up residence with us this summer and delight in chasing each other around at dawn and at dusk. They give off a squeal while doing so which at dusk sounds like toddlers refusing to go to bed because the sun is still up and being determined to enjoy every last second of daylight. They move so fast that we still haven't worked out exactly where the roost which in a way is quite a good thing and is probably the whole point. For collective noun, therefore, I'll suggest a Squealing of Swifts.


Vizzer, just lost my message because there came a message: verdachte website geblokkeerd (suspect website blocked)

I start again and hope for the better...

Vizzer, old fellow you seem to know more about Belgium than I...and thanks for this elogy about the Belgian football and the pedigree...the Belgians will need it, because if you believe Nigel Farege about Belgium...and I see now that they won again and against Bresil!...

As for the P.S. if you or Meles meles can explain to a continental Belgian, what that is about "Swifts" and all, because it is "Chinese" to me (parce que c'est du Chinois pour moi/omdat het Chinees is voor mij)...I know you British say "Greek", but I find Greek easier than Chinese...

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 08:46

Paul,
Swifts are birds, a bit like a swallow (zwaluw in Flemish) that in summer nest under house eaves and swoop around buildings in a noisy frenzy. There are several similar birds and the names in English and French can be a bit misleading as they're 'false friends':

A swallow or barn swallow in English (Hirundo rustica) is a zwaluw in Dutch and un hirondelle ou hirondelle de chemine in French.

A house martin in English (Dolichon urbica) a delichon in Dutch I think, is known as un hirondelle de fenêtre in French.

A swift in English (Apus apus) is a gierzwaluw in Dutch or un martinet noir in French.

.... and we were referring to the rather peculiar English practice of giving specific and sometimes unusual names to groups of animals and birds. So although one can talk generally about a herd of animals or a flock of birds, a group of, say crows, is known as a murder (ie a murder of crows), a group of larks as an exultation (an exultation of larks) etc

a swallow/un hirondelle

a house martin/ un hirondelle de fenêtre

a swift/un martinet noir


Last edited by Meles meles on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 15:30; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 09:05

@PaulRyckier wrote:
I know you British say "Greek", but I find Greek easier than Chinese.

Just to add to Meles' taxonomy above I'll give you the Greco-Latin name for the Swift family of birds which is 'Apodidae'. I think the Flemish name is 'Gierzwaluw'. They migrate from southern Africa to Europe in the summer. As you can see from Meles' mention of one of the sub-species of Apodidae 'house martins' then this is closely linked linguistically to the French name 'Martinet'.

That's with regard to the noun 'Swift' and possible collective nouns (thanks Meles for 'a scream of swifts', I think I'll go for that one). With regard to the adjective 'swift', then in French one could say 'un peu comme Eden Hazard ou Kevin De Bruyne'. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 09:21

There is an interesting reference to swifts/ house-martin in Macbeth. When King Duncan arrives at Macbeth's castle (where he will be murdered), Banquo notices these beautiful little birds swooping around the battlements. He observes (with unwitting irony):

Banquo:
This guest of summer,
The temple-haunting martlet, does approve,
By his loved mansionry, that heaven's breath
Smells wooingly here: no jutty,frieze,
Buttress, nor coign of vantage, but this bird
Hath made his pendant bed, and procreant cradle:
Where they breed and haunt, I have observ'd
The air is delicate.


"Martlet" (MM's "martinet noir") is now the swift, but seems to have been the house-martin in Shakespeare's time. According to the O.E.D. the bird was "formally confused with the swallow and the house-martin." There were, incidentally, "martlets" on Edward the Confessor's shield. They are said to bring luck to the owners of the houses where they build their nests.

However, WW is playing with words. Duncan and Banquo are both being deceived - "martin" was an Elizabethan slang word for a dupe - the word being so used by Robert Greene (of "upstart crow" fame) and John Fletcher.


English collective nouns are great fun. I like a "smuck of jellyfish". What on earth is a smuck, besides being a group of the aquatic wobbly ones?

PS Also "a cete of badgers".
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 13:43

I was looking up swifts, swallows and martins in some of my bird books and came across this evocative poem by Ted Hughes, entitled simply 'Swifts':

And here they are, here they are again
Erupting across yard stones
Shrapnel-scatter terror. Frog-gapers,
Speedway goggles, international mobsters.

A bolas of three or four wire screams
Jockeying across each other
On their switchback wheel of death.
They swat past, hard-fetched,
Veer on the hard air, toss up over the roof,
And are gone again. Their mole-black labouring,
Their lunatic limber scramming frenzy
And their whirling blades

Sparkle into the blue  -
                                     Not ours any more.



As Vizzer says above swifts are members of the family Apodidae - that is "foot-less", as they have very short, insignificant legs. They were commonly thought to have no feet at all and so it was widely believed they couldn't land - or rather take off again - on flat ground. In heraldry, as the martlet (although as Temp says it was probably based originally on the related house martin rather than the swift) they are always depicted with no feet, just a tuft of feathers. As an heraldic emblem the footless martlet was used as a symbol for a fourth son of a house, one destined for a life of landless wandering; "a hapless creature unable to plant his feet on the land", as 'Birds Britannica' puts it.

In the past the swift was known variously as 'devil's bitch', 'deviling', 'devil bird', 'skeer devil', 'screecher', 'screamer' and 'shriek owl' ... all no doubt drawing strongly on their all-black, scimitar shape and shrill devilish screaming call. And yet they do not seem to have been considered a bird of ill-omen or with a particularly evil reputation, and there is no evidence that they were ever routinely persecuted.

But a more unsettling revelation I have learned from 'Birds Britannica' is that swifts are routinely infested with a particularly nasty-looking species of parasitic louse-fly which can grow up to half-an-inch in length. This is huge in relation to the host and the book quotes an expert on avian parasites as noting: "a small bird with one or two of these insects creeping about in its feathers can be compared to a man with a couple of large shore crabs scuttling about in his underclothes."

affraid


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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 14:32

2 very apt (and lovely) poetic quotations there Temp and Meles. The Hughes poem certainly evokes the 'teenagers on vespas' allusion.

It's a particularly cruel irony that a bird so deadly a fly-catcher as a swift should itself be unable to preen and groom its own feathers of parasites. That's probably why they're screaming. Here's another collective noun - 'a shudder of louse-flies'. Little schmucks.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 20:29

@Vizzer wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:
I know you British say "Greek", but I find Greek easier than Chinese.

Just to add to Meles' taxonomy above I'll give you the Greco-Latin name for the Swift family of birds which is 'Apodidae'. I think the Flemish name is 'Gierzwaluw'. They migrate from southern Africa to Europe in the summer. As you can see from Meles' mention of one of the sub-species of Apodidae 'house martins' then this is closely linked linguistically to the French name 'Martinet'.

That's with regard to the noun 'Swift' and possible collective nouns (thanks Meles for 'a scream of swifts', I think I'll go for that one). With regard to the adjective 'swift', then in French one could say 'un peu comme Eden Hazard ou Kevin De Bruyne'. Wink

Meles meles and Vizzer,

thank you so much for the abundant (abondant) and to the point explanation. Now I understand the whole context. It is unbelievable that with not understanding one word the whole message becomes Greek to someone...of course a not English one...and even had I looked in my paperback Collins dictionary, as I many times do, I hadn't catched the connotation either. As "swift" is quite understandable for me, and "swallow" too, as we in Dutch also say "zwaluw"..but the link of swallow and swift was too much for me Wink ...
I wanted to say that English has many times such unexpected specificities, and sometimes worser than the "Flemish dialects", but see now that we have in Dutch also such strange names Embarassed  as a
"roedel" of wolves, dogs...they translate it by herd, flock...although in Dutch we say for "herd, flock": "kudde" and "roedel" seems to be a "flock" with a strict hiearchy?
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roedel
I don't find an English site, while I don't know how "roedel" has to be translated...

Meles meles, I found for "house martin" in Dutch "huiszwaluw" (house swallow)

And yes Vizzer and now the Belgian "Swifts" against the French...? Is that then the demi-finales...? Excuses for my ignorance...

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 20:33

@Temperance wrote:
There is an interesting reference to swifts/ house-martin in Macbeth. When King Duncan arrives at Macbeth's castle (where he will be murdered), Banquo notices these beautiful little birds swooping around the battlements. He observes (with unwitting irony):

Banquo:
This guest of summer,
The temple-haunting martlet, does approve,
By his loved mansionry, that heaven's breath
Smells wooingly here: no jutty,frieze,
Buttress, nor coign of vantage, but this bird
Hath made his pendant bed, and procreant cradle:
Where they breed and haunt, I have observ'd
The air is delicate.


"Martlet" (MM's "martinet noir") is now the swift, but seems to have been the house-martin in Shakespeare's time. According to the O.E.D. the bird was "formally confused with the swallow and the house-martin." There were, incidentally, "martlets" on Edward the Confessor's shield. They are said to bring luck to the owners of the houses where they build their nests.

However, WW is playing with words. Duncan and Banquo are both being deceived - "martin" was an Elizabethan slang word for a dupe - the word being so used by Robert Greene (of "upstart crow" fame) and John Fletcher.


English collective nouns are great fun. I like a "smuck of jellyfish". What on earth is a smuck, besides being a group of the aquatic wobbly ones?

PS Also "a cete of badgers".

Temperance,

always happily surprized by your broad knowledge of that many fields of history, literature and even slang...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 20:47

Een roedel wolven (in Flemish) would be pack of wolves -  again a collective noun specific to wolves or other similar canids such as dogs or hounds ... and possibly also coyotes and hyenas, but I rather suspect they both have their own particular term; a skulk of coyotes maybe, and a snigger or chuckle of hyenas, perhaps?.


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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 21:01

I'm not as knowledgeable about birds as other contributors to this thread but are we thinking about European swallows or African swallows? I never liked the Monty Python films as much as some friends and acquaintances but I did find the "unladen velocity of a swallow" skit funny - and whether it was a European or African swallow amusing. Or are they in fact the same bird, what with the swallow being a migrating bird so were the Monty Python team having a laugh?  For the best part of 40 years I've thought this was "What is the relative density of a swallow?". 
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 22:43

@Meles meles wrote:
Een roedel wolven (in Flemish) would be pack of wolves -  again a collective noun specific to wolves or other similar canids such as dogs or hounds ... and possibly also coyotes and hyenas, but I rather suspect they both have their own particular term; a skulk of coyotes maybe, and a snigger or chuckle of hyenas, perhaps?.

Meles meles,

yes now I remember "a pack of wolves"...I think I first met it when I read Jack London in English...what a life...worth to put it on the "individuals" forum...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_London

"again a collective noun specific to wolves or other similar canids such as dogs or hounds ... and possibly also coyotes and hyenas, but I rather suspect they both have their own particular term; a skulk of coyotes maybe, and a snigger or chuckle of hyenas, perhaps?."

Meles meles, I first thought that the English language had one of the largest vocabularies in the world because they have for each concept two names, a Germanic and a Romance one, but after today after seeing another example of the rich vocabulary, I know now that it isn"t only that duality Germanic/Romance... Wink

Kind regards from the Belgian Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 07 Jul 2018, 23:31

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I'm not as knowledgeable about birds as other contributors to this thread but are we thinking about European swallows or African swallows? I never liked the Monty Python films as much as some friends and acquaintances but I did find the "unladen velocity of a swallow" skit funny - and whether it was a European or African swallow amusing. Or are they in fact the same bird, what with the swallow being a migrating bird so were the Monty Python team having a laugh?  For the best part of 40 years I've thought this was "What is the relative density of a swallow?". 
Lady,
 
I tried to understand the film by using the subtitles, but as it perhaps is computer translation and also Flying...Python, after sentences as:
"yes you are using coconut what you have got two empty arms of coconut and you are banging them together so we..." I give up...only understood it as some dirty language of two empty coconuts banging together...
"what is the relative density of a swallow?"
Lady are you going the same "metaphysical" strain (or pure bladerdash) as the Monty Python flying circus...?
But back to the earth...indeed the swallow is a migrating bird...
https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/wildlife-guides/bird-a-z/swallow/migration/

And yes, even British swallows follow, according to this article, another route than the European ones, what would Nigel Farage say if he knew that even the swallows...
European swallows: Africa south of the Sahara and Indian sub-continent...
British swallows: West Africa to South Africa...
Or would the British swallows also include the swallows of the Irish Republic...?

Lady, so relieved to see you here again, I hope that you had not trouble again with your computer...I think I can speak also in the name of the others...you were immediately missed overhere...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 08 Jul 2018, 07:47

@Temperance wrote:
...

English collective nouns are great fun. I like a "smuck of jellyfish". What on earth is a smuck, besides being a group of the aquatic wobbly ones?

PS Also "a cete of badgers".

For some unknwn reason I recall having wondered about "a Parliament of owls".
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PostSubject: Edited because one of the links had not "taken".   Sun 08 Jul 2018, 10:57

There's mention of "a parliament of owls" in "Le Nichoir" (about birds in Quebec [from 2013] linked here.[url=lenichoir.org/2013/04/a-murder-of-crows-a-parliament-of-owls/]lenichoir.org/2013/04/a-murder-of-crows-a-parliament-of-owls/[/url]  Geoffrey Chaucer (14th century English poet) wrote a work entitled The Parliament of Foules (modern English "Parliament of Fowls") though that is probably co-incidental - and I don't know enough of the changes in the sound of spoken English between Chaucer's time and the twenty-first century  to be able to say whether the fourteenth century equivalent of 'owls' and 'fowls' rhymed.

One of the reasons I was away from the website for a few days was that I had a time-consuming job to do.  It was not difficult of itself but there was a lot of it.  I am trying to limit the time I spend on the internet.  For instance, I don't want to lose touch with reality (which there is a danger of via nutty YouTube videos - and I'm not saying ALL YouTube videos are crazy) and also there are things I need to do in real life which spending a disproportionate amount of time on the internet can delay.  The reason I mentioned the Monty Python skit was that the mention of a swallow reminded me of the skit.  For another bit of trivial information in his "Saint" books Leslie Charteris had Simon Templar, his hero drive a (fictional) type of car called a "Hirondelle".  I'm not talking about saints as in people declared to be saintly by the Catholic church but as in Leslie's Charteris' * fictional character.

(I'm never sure whether the possessive in a singular word or name ending in 's' like Charles should be Charles' or Charles's).
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 08 Jul 2018, 21:59

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
There's mention of "a parliament of owls" in "Le Nichoir" (about birds in Quebec [from 2013] linked here.

http://lenichoir.org/2013/04/a-murder-of-crows-a-parliament-of-owls/

Geoffrey Chaucer (14th century English poet) wrote a work entitled The Parliament of Foules (modern English "Parliament of Fowls") though that is probably co-incidental - and I don't know enough of the changes in the sound of spoken English between Chaucer's time and the twenty-first century  to be able to say whether the fourteenth century equivalent of 'owls' and 'fowls' rhymed.

One of the reasons I was away from the website for a few days was that I had a time-consuming job to do.  It was not difficult of itself but there was a lot of it.  I am trying to limit the time I spend on the internet.  For instance, I don't want to lose touch with reality (which there is a danger of via nutty YouTube videos - and I'm not saying ALL YouTube videos are crazy) and also there are things I need to do in real life which spending a disproportionate amount of time on the internet can delay.  The reason I mentioned the Monty Python skit was that the mention of a swallow reminded me of the skit.  For another bit of trivial information in his "Saint" books Leslie Charteris had Simon Templar, his hero drive a (fictional) type of car called a "Hirondelle".  I'm not talking about saints as in people declared to be saintly by the Catholic church but as in Leslie's Charteris' * fictional character.

(I'm never sure whether the possessive in a singular word or name ending in 's' like Charles should be Charles' or Charles's).

Lady,

to start with:
"(I'm never sure whether the possessive in a singular word or name ending in 's' like Charles should be Charles' or Charles's)."
From my continental learning of English I am nearly sure that it is: "Charles'" I meant " Charles' " Wink ...

"Geoffrey Chaucer (14th century English poet) wrote a work entitled The Parliament of Foules (modern English "Parliament of Fowls") though that is probably co-incidental - and I don't know enough of the changes in the sound of spoken English between Chaucer's time and the twenty-first century  to be able to say whether the fourteenth century equivalent of 'owls' and 'fowls' rhymed."

No owls in the text, but only fowls...and in my paperback Collins they say: fowl:domisticated bird (in Dutch I seem not to have a word for fowl)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parlement_of_Foules
http://www.eleusinianm.co.uk/middle-english-literature-retold-in-modern-english/dream-visions/the-parliament-of-fowls

"The reason I mentioned the Monty Python skit was that the mention of a swallow reminded me of the skit.  For another bit of trivial information in his "Saint" books Leslie Charteris had Simon Templar, his hero drive a (fictional) type of car called a "Hirondelle".  I'm not talking about saints as in people declared to be saintly by the Catholic church but as in Leslie's Charteris' * fictional character."

Lady, you are definitely a bit as I and my family of father's side (not at all on mother's side!)...subjects and subsubjects and from this subsubjects other subsubjects...

I am nearly sure I read Simon Templar in my young years in Dutch...
https://www.goodreads.com/series/74421-simon-templar-the-saint


And now my further message about the TV series of the Saint and my narration about "Lord Lister" is gone...
I start again:
I still remember from my young years (the Fifties), my garndmother reading "Lord Lister", small booklets in pulp paper (hence the term: pulp literature). I remember also that they were in a red couvercle and tried to find it on the internet. But as it is more the denigrated railway station pulp literature it seems not to be mentioned, as for instance a Biggles...
But unexpected I found this:
https://journals.openedition.org/belphegor/1044
And from this source:
"This article explores the content and reception of two kinds of British-based detective fiction that were widely-read in the Netherlands at the start of the twentieth century: serialized international pulp fiction (the Lord Lister series) on the one hand, and domestic novels (from the Dutch writer Ivans) on the other. The Lord Lister series was generally regarded as the lowest part of popular culture and as very dangerous because the ambivalent ‘gentleman-thief’ Lord Lister, the criminal hero of the series, could influence young people to confuse right and wrong. The novels by the popular Dutch writer Ivans, ‘the Dutch Conan Doyle’, were received more positively. Ivans, who explicitly positioned himself between ‘low’ and ‘high’ culture, countered the ongoing complaints against popular fiction by offering novels that defended moral and societal norms and strived towards a harmonious balance between human emotions and rational thinking. His attempt to provide a ‘healthier’ and national kind of detective fiction was in line with the wishes of critics who functioned as mediators between contemporary literature and the common reader and were concerned with the social and mental effects of reading too much (imported) popular fiction."

"The Lord Lister series was generally regarded as the lowest part of popular culture and as very dangerous because the ambivalent ‘gentleman-thief’ Lord Lister, the criminal hero of the series, could influence young people to confuse right and wrong."

And that I read between 8 and 10 years old Wink

As I wanted to add an elaborated message about our workload, I will start a new message for fear to lose it all again...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 08 Jul 2018, 22:13

Lady,

Found it:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raffles_(Lord_Lister)

Kind regards from your equivalent Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 08 Jul 2018, 23:04

Lady,

"One of the reasons I was away from the website for a few days was that I had a time-consuming job to do.  It was not difficult of itself but there was a lot of it.  I am trying to limit the time I spend on the internet.  For instance, I don't want to lose touch with reality (which there is a danger of via nutty YouTube videos - and I'm not saying ALL YouTube videos are crazy) and also there are things I need to do in real life which spending a disproportionate amount of time on the internet can delay. "

" I am trying to limit the time I spend on the internet."

So I do, my lady...I try to spent only 3 hours a day on the internet...a five minutes to see if there is something interesting on Historum, another five for the same reason on Passion Histoire...and the rest overhere...

"For instance, I don't want to lose touch with reality (which there is a danger of via nutty YouTube videos - and I'm not saying ALL YouTube videos are crazy)"

In my case, no danger...only looking to documentaries on my hard disc of the TV distributor...nearly all from Arte and in French as I prefer French above German. (as you have the choice on Arte). And if it is not interesting enough I accelerate the speed to 24 or even 64 the limit to still see what happens...

"and also there are things I need to do in real life which spending a disproportionate amount of time on the internet can delay. "

Lady, have a lot to do in real life...preparing meals for both of us, while my wife is not "swift" in the household, pushing the weelchair, while she is not able to do long distances...for the moment refurbishing an appartment and putting a new kitchen in it (I agree with help)...this morning the garden while it was not yet that hot...this afternoon the ritual of the daily "café" today near the coast as there is there more wind and in this hot weather... as there were no papers today, a large ice cream and lots of coffee...at the end some aqua con gas...and as said now three hours...strict time table...so have to leave you...

OOPS and I forgot, when I was thinking at my workload, thinking also about what my dear "das" had to do...the former daughter in law, with whom we have still a very good relation...running a B and B in Bruges...(official one)...three rooms...only breakfast, no meals as I suppose MM does, but doing the washing and ironing...I suppose MM don't do that as this is really a workload...and perhaps are the washing and ironing shops less expensive in the South of France than overhere...and a short undertaining with the guests...and the paperwork...a really feel with MM...but he is young... Wink

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 10:28

@PaulRyckier wrote:
OOPS and I forgot, when I was thinking at my workload, thinking also about what my dear "das" had to do...the former daughter in law, with whom we have still a very good relation...running a B and B in Bruges...(official one)...three rooms...only breakfast, no meals as I suppose MM does, but doing the washing and ironing...I suppose MM don't do that as this is really a workload...and perhaps are the washing and ironing shops less expensive in the South of France than overhere...and a short undertaining with the guests...and the paperwork...a really feel with MM...but he is young... Wink

MM does do the washing and ironing ... also cleaning the rooms and changing the sheets, mowing the lawns, maintaining the swimming pool, household repairs, paperwork, shopping, and breakfasts ... but he tries not to do evening meals unless he really has to. And he's not actually that young anymore! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 10:50

Oh, I've had a window break in the front room.  I think the frame has rotted and although the house is not right on the road there are some heavy lorries that go past to and from a factory and since two large housing estates have sprung up on what was previously green fields further down the road the rush hour traffic has got busier.  I think the traffic passing - and the putty coming loose - has caused the window to rattle about in its somewhat rackety frame and come out.  I know this is nothing compared to what MM has to do though there is much work needed on this house but I can only afford to do it incrementally unless I win the lottery or something (and I haven't partaken in the lottery for quite some time).  And is Paul also a landlord who has to maintain property?  I think in this instance I will ask a professional to fix the window.

MM left out walking the dog from his list of things he has to do!

Regarding PR's post about pulp fiction, I realise now that Lord Lister is Raffles.  At one time the BBC radio station Radio 4 Extra broadcast some of the Raffles stories.  They also aired some Dorothy L Sayers "Lord Peter Wimsey" tales with Ian Carmichael in the title role.  These were probably repeats because Ian Carmichael died in 2010.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 11:21

Dear MM,

Wink  from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 11:30

LiR see you this evening...have yesterday cut an electric cable under the ground in the garden with a sharp spade...it is well protected with an iron strip wrapped around the electrical cable...but against a sharp spade...stupid me had to have protected it from the first time with yellow glassfiber covers...will do it now after phoning around and looking on the computer where they have such things...
Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 18:20

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
MM left out walking the dog from his list of things he has to do!

Actually that is one job I rarely have to do during the busy summer holiday season. Guests often go for a walk up the lane - sometimes just a few minutes, sometimes further along the river for several km - and the dog usually trundles along with them, or when there are families with children they can be playing ball with him in the garden for hours. Then when the neighbouring Belgian family are in residence in their holiday home, about 500m away up the lane, Doggy-Dog frequently invites himself round there for breakfast ... and dinner too if he can get away with it. Once, when they were hosting a troop of scouts in their house (they have no electricity so it's much like camping, it's just holiday home after all) Doglet happily stayed with them for several days; swimming in the river, 'helping' build a field oven, and then sharing the resulting home-made pizza and sausages cooked over an open fire. When I eventually went round to bring him back it was clear he'd been having a great time and was very reluctant to come home.

Even outside of the holiday season he sometimes goes walkies on his own, occasionally going absent for several hours or even more. I will only know where he's gone when perhaps the village shop telephones me to say he is having a biscuit on their terrace, or maybe he's at the local bar/restaurant, having a pastis and reading the newspaper. Or he returns on his own but usually with un cadeau - which is more often than not something like a child's shoe, someone's underwear, or a small kiddies' toy - which rather suggest he's been to the village (3km away) and has stolen a trophy from someone's doorstep or washing line!
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 09 Jul 2018, 23:31

@PaulRyckier wrote:
and now the Belgian "Swifts" against the French...? Is that then the demi-finales...?

It is indeed and it is also the first time in the history of the tournament that there has been no South American or Iberian or Italian representation among the last four. So in order to make up for this, here's a song from 40 years ago dredged up from the depths of one's auditory cortex. By Italian singer Raffaella Carrà and originally recorded in her native language, she re-recorded it a couple of years later in English with it becoming a hit and the unofficial anthem of that year's World Cup Argentina'78:

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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 09:49

Oh, is MM's dog a friendly dog like Belle from Belle and Sebastian?  I went through a phase of looking (briefly) for updates about old TV shows and read something that the little boy from the series (Mehdi) who played Sebastian is now in his early 60s.  Belle and Sebastian took place in the Alpes-Maritimes so the other side of France from MM and Doggy-Dog but a mountainous region nonetheless.  I hadn't realised before that the book on which B&S was based was written by the late French actress Cecile Aubry.  She retired from filming in 1959 saying (according to Wikipedia) that she had chiefly enjoyed filming for the travel opportunities it provided her and went on to write "children's books and scenarios for children's television with considerable success" (c.f. Wikipedia).  Of course one can't rely 100% on what one reads in Wikipedia but I was a little heartened by the idea that somebody would give up the rat-race in a way (I suppose I've been feeling somewhat jaded hearing about the things that have come out about the hoops some directors had young hopefuls jumping through in the hope of securing a part).  Though I guess no-one absolutely has to jump through a hoop.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 12:24

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Oh, is MM's dog a friendly dog like Belle from Belle and Sebastian? 

I thought Belle was a Pyrenean Mountain Dog (un Patou), which aren't generally a particulalrly friendly breed. They are a type of sheep guard dog, raised to live among the sheep flocks to protect against wolves and rustlers, and accordingly they are very loyal and protective of their charges, but rather aggresive against any strangers or predators. The mayor of our village has a few which live year-round amongst his flock of some 500 head of sheep up on the mountain. Whenever I drive past they bark furiously to warn me to keep my distance, and in the back of the car Doggy-Dog lies flat and hopes they won't realise he's there (he's not very brave). DD is a Golden Retriever and as he's actually white rather than golden, he does resemble a Pyrenean (indeed he may have some Pyrenean in his ancestry), although as a retriever he's much calmer, quieter, he rarely barks and thankfully is very gentle with people, whether they are little kiddies, bouncy teenagers, or elderly and rather frail.

Doggy-Dog and companion:



PS - the little boy who played Sébastien in the French TV production, Mehdi El Glaoui, was Cécile Aubry's son.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 13:16

I guess Cecile Aubry used dramatic licence to make Belle a friendly member of her breed.  I suppose it is not so very bad to have had her son act in the dramatisation of her story.  I seem to remember Hayley Mills played a part in Whistle down the Wind which was based on a story by her mother, Mary Hayley-Bell.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 13:26

On a different tack, I decided to try and read up on The Song of Roland.  Not found anything online which is not too scholastic for my level yet but I did read that JRR Tolkien may have based some element of Lord of the Rings on part (not all) of Song of Roland.  I heard some of the radio version of LoTR back in the day but never could get into the book as a reader.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 18:04

Well, today I finally managed to do the first part of the piece about Jeanne de Clisson that I had printed off from the web with the French conversation group I attend .  It's a bit long so hopefully we'll finish it next week (then the group breaks until September).  Somebody had pre-empted me on doing anything about Bienvenue aux Ch'tis (spelling?) as suggested by MM but when I take something fresh into the group in September I might take something about learning Platt as a minority language - or another of France's minority languages.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 20:30

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
On a different tack, I decided to try and read up on The Song of Roland.  Not found anything online which is not too scholastic for my level yet but I did read that JRR Tolkien may have based some element of Lord of the Rings on part (not all) of Song of Roland.  I heard some of the radio version of LoTR back in the day but never could get into the book as a reader.

 Lady,

"too scholastic"
The translation of the Oxford version is simply the translation, but now I hesitate...from an Anglo-Norman text or was it Old- French?
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/roland_crosland.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland
"Set in the Carolingian era, it was written much later. There is a single extant manuscript of the Song of Roland in Old French, held at the Bodleian Library at Oxford[2]. This copy dates between 1129 and 1165 and was written in Anglo-Norman.[3] There are also eight further manuscripts, and three fragments, of other poems on the subject of Roland.[4]
First wiki says the manuscriptfrom Oxford is in Old French and then  it says the copy dates between 1129 and 1165 and is in Anglo-Norman?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_French
"Old Norman, in Normandy, whose principal cities were Caen and Rouen. The Norman conquest of England brought many Norman-speaking aristocrats into the British Isles. Most of the older Norman (sometimes called "French") words in English reflect its influence, which became a conduit for the introduction into the Anglo-Norman realm, as did Anglo-Norman control of Anjou and Gascony and other continental possessions. Anglo-Norman was a language that reflected a shared culture on both sides of the English Channel.[3] Ultimately, the language declined and fell, becoming Law French, a jargon spoken by lawyers that was used in English law until the reign of Charles II of England. Norman, however, still survives in Normandy and the Channel Islands, as a regional language;

Interesting for AngloNorman and MM:
Ultimately, the language declined and fell, becoming Law French, a jargon spoken by lawyers that was used in English law until the reign of Charles II of England. Norman, however, still survives in Normandy and the Channel Islands, as a regional language;
In the wiki about translations:
"A Latin poem, Carmen de Prodicione Guenonis, was composed around 1120, and a Latin prose version, Historia Caroli Magni (often known as "The Pseudo-Turpin") even earlier. Around 1170, a version of the French poem was translated into the Middle High German Rolandslied by Konrad der Pfaffe[8] (formerly thought to have been the author of the Kaiserchronik). In his translation Konrad replaces French topics with generically Christian ones. The work was translated into Middle Dutch in the 13th century.
It was also rendered into Occitan verse in the 14th- or 15th-century poem of Ronsasvals, which incorporates the later, southern aesthetic into the story. An Old Norse version of the Song of Roland exists as Karlamagnús saga, and a translation into the artificial literary language of Franco-Venetian is also known; such translations contributed to the awareness of the story in Italy. In 1516 Ludovico Ariosto published his epic Orlando Furioso, which deals largely with characters first described in the Song of Roland.
There is also Faroese adoption of this ballad named "Runtsivalstríðið" (Battle of Roncevaux).[9] The ballad is one of many sung during the Faroese folkdance tradition of chain dancing. "

In Middle Dutch: Het Roelantslied:
https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_roe001roel02_01/_roe001roel02_01_0004.php
There are the same translations mentioned as in the wiki and no Middle-English version, but well a Middle-Welsh version Wink
Campeo Charlymaen

https://archive.org/stream/campeucharlymae00unkngoog/campeucharlymae00unkngoog_djvu.txt

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 23:32

@Nielsen wrote:
I recall having wondered about "a Parliament of owls".

A wonder indeed. Chaucer's Parlement of Foules (mentioned by LiR) is probably closer the mark. Owls are, after all, supposed to represent wisdom which is not a word one would associate with the current shower in the UK parliament. And as long ago as the 1720s it was noted that 'ignorance, idleness, and vice, are the proper ingredients for qualifying a legislator' who in assembly formed 'a knot of pedlars, pick-pockets, highwayman, and bullies'. Those were the words of the Irish satirist Jonathan Swift. Yes - Swift.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Wed 11 Jul 2018, 05:53

As a principle, Vizzer, I at least attempt to not pass judgement on the Parliamentary customs of any other country than the ones in which I may choose to cast my vote, which includes the EU one.

But again I wonder ...
Fisticuffs in some, shootings in others, with brainless whizz-kids spouting excell bottom lines to the so called political leaders and their Ministries as some kind of New Priesthood all over the place as if those were The Answer to all problems on this Earth.

Still, ordinary people go about, do their chores, raise their kids to the best of their ability, get along - or not - with the neighbours, and life goes on.
They're the ones in who I trust, they and their questioning, in which I hope to share the ability to help people ask their 'betters', whether something is done as good as possible.

Pheew, that was this mornings sermon from yours truly, rant over, I hope.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Wed 11 Jul 2018, 09:36

Well I can't get inside politicians' heads and know if they are acting out of a sense of duty to their constituents or out of self-serving ambitions.  The original meanings of the words "Whig" and "Tory" were pejorative.  (The Whig and Tory parties are now the Liberal and Conservative parties respectively). A "whig" was a country bumpkin according to this link https://www.etymonline.com/word/whig and according to the next link a tory was an outlaw.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30899534  I seem to have a memory of "tory" meaning a bandit in Irish; not that I'm a one to tease or anything but for a time in the 1980s I worked in a place where most of my colleagues were very conny-onny and I used to say I didn't think much had changed that the tories were still a load of bandits.  Not that I was sure the other lot were the great red hope either.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Wed 11 Jul 2018, 19:46

@Vizzer wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:
and now the Belgian "Swifts" against the French...? Is that then the demi-finales...?

It is indeed and it is also the first time in the history of the tournament that there has been no South American or Iberian or Italian representation among the last four. So in order to make up for this, here's a song from 40 years ago dredged up from the depths of one's auditory cortex. By Italian singer Raffaella Carrà and originally recorded in her native language, she re-recorded it a couple of years later in English with it becoming a hit and the unofficial anthem of that year's World Cup Argentina'78:


Yes indeed Vizzer, yesterday a demi finale...end of the dream pale .... and now England winning?...and finale England-France?...and at the end England gold...? And thanks for the info on the Romance people in the world...and for the lady...and her song...



Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 12 Jul 2018, 16:15

@PaulRyckier wrote:
finale England-France?...and at the end England gold...?

Alas not this time Paul. Belgium and England will now have to contest the bronze match between themselves. 'The Swifts v The Young Lions' - again!

This Englishman is delighted for Croatia. They thoroughly deserve their place in the Final. And one has to go right back to the 1950s for the last time a country with such small a population (4,000,000) made it to the last match when the likes of the 'Magic Magyars' of Hungary (population c. 9,000,000) made the Final in 1954 and Uruguay (population c. 2,000,000) beat Brazil (in Brazil!) to lift the cup in 1950.

P.S. That 1970s video of the original Italian version of A far l'amore comincia tu made me chuckle. It reminded me of another term I haven't heard for a while - 'As camp as a Brazilian scout jamboree'.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 12 Jul 2018, 23:04

Vizzer,

just at home from a visit outdoors...

you Englishmen have such "special" terms, expressions...
"As camp as a Brazilian scout jamboree."
had not the slightest idea about what it meant...
and even the internet gave mixed directions...as I first thought that it was a "scout's camp"...
but then:
https://www.definition-of.com/camp+as+a+row+of+tents
Of course in our Dutch dialects we have myriad of expressions for it...but that was rather my time...as nowadays people are more normal to the phenomena and that's a good thing, while in the past there were many real problems...
Having in the close circle one who commited suicide, because he came not on terms with his leanings...and perhaps also with the public appreciation...
Having now also some male family member married to another male and having an adopted child...perhaps better that the appreciation is changed...
See Temperance, even in the "café" we can talk about serious stuff...

As for the Brazilian Jamboree
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interamerican_Scout_Jamboree

Now Vizzer and correct me if I am wrong Wink , what I made of it:
 a crazy situation, meeting?...
Correct mle if I am wrong MM...in French: "un sacré bordel"?

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Thu 12 Jul 2018, 23:31

Sought for the term "un sacré bordel" (a damned (holy Wink ) brothel)
http://context.reverso.net/translation/french-english/Sacr%C3%A9+bordel+de
From the site:
a potty-mouth chaos

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Fri 13 Jul 2018, 02:23

Hi Paul

None of those three links really accurately relates to the concept of the word 'camp' (although the second link is probably closest). The first link claiming to give a `definition` of camp is in fact badly incorrect. The word camp is in no way interchangeable with the word homosexual or vice versa. That is a misconception.

Camp refers to an attitude or mannerism which has a high sense of glamour or drama and which can verge on the comic or even the ridiculous. An authoritative book on the subject is Camp: the lie that tells the truth (1984) by the late Philip Core. In it he lists a whole range of people, objects and cultural icons from over the centuries which have to a greater or lesser extent exhibited camp characteristics. It is, however, more of a feeling than a precise science.

I hope that helps.  Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Fri 13 Jul 2018, 23:10

@Vizzer wrote:
Hi Paul

None of those three links really accurately relates to the concept of the word 'camp' (although the second link is probably closest). The first link claiming to give a `definition` of camp is in fact badly incorrect. The word camp is in no way interchangeable with the word homosexual or vice versa. That is a misconception.

Camp refers to an attitude or mannerism which has a high sense of glamour or drama and which can verge on the comic or even the ridiculous. An authoritative book on the subject is Camp: the lie that tells the truth (1984) by the late Philip Core. In it he lists a whole range of people, objects and cultural icons from over the centuries which have to a greater or lesser extent exhibited camp characteristics. It is, however, more of a feeling than a precise science.

I hope that helps.  Wink

Thanks again Vizzer for puting me on the right track...but what then with the Brazilian scout jamboree?  A ridiculous organized scout manifestation, bordering mannerism? and now you let me think about certain British army films...with the saluting and all that...and other mannerisms...I hope I have now not hurt some British army men...

And btw, a whole part of the evening discussing at "Le salon géopolitique" about the perception of nowadays new cleavages, while i was trying to prove that it were old cleavages as in the Thirties...now a Trump and a Putin..Italian nationalism, Catalan nationalism, the "Vlaams Belang (Blok)" fervent adepts of Trump...the ridiculizing of democracy as incompetent...by malignant populists...and stupid people say then: look that are now the guys, who say it as it is...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:15

@PaulRyckier wrote:
what then with the Brazilian scout jamboree?  A ridiculous organized scout manifestation, bordering mannerism?

The imagery here is not one of ridicule but of comic endearment. The scout movement was a product of British imperialism in the 1900s and was founded by a British army officer in order to promote patriotism. So its adoption by other countries (outside the British empire) is somewhat perplexing. Yet it has indeed been a global movement for more than 100 years with seemingly unlikely countries (such as Brazil) embracing it. With Brazil being the home of such things as the Rio Carnival (a camp icon if ever there was one) then this particular juxtaposition is what is endearing.

@PaulRyckier wrote:
let me think about certain British army films...with the saluting and all that...and other mannerisms...I hope I have now not hurt some British army men...

They’d have to be pretty thin skinned to feel hurt by that Paul. The British army (and the other branches of the UK armed forces) has long provided rich source material for cinematic comedy and indeed ridicule. Films such as Carry On Sergeant (1958), and television series such a Dad’s Army (1968) and It Ain’t Half Hot Mum (1974) spring to mind to name just a few. Needless to say that camp imagery also abounds in those productions.

P.S. Sid James (one of the lead actors in the Carry On films) was by all accounts a great authority on the question of ‘cleavages’:

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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:54

Well done for your explanation of the concept of "camp" Vizzer. I was tempted to butt in to try and offer my own interpretation ... but then realised I couldn't define it in words. All I could think of was a collage of mental images: Canivale in Brazil, Notting Hill, and Venice (all different of course); 'Priscilla, Queen of the Desert'; 'La Cage aux Folles'; Gilbert & Sullivan's 'HMS Pinafore' as performed by Essgee of Australia; Mr Humphies in 'Are you being served?' ... but none of them really nail it down.

But staying with the flamboyant, colourful, military theme ... I've just watched on TV, Le Défilé de Quatorze Juillet.

Over breakfast this morning we were chatting about the Bastille Day Parade in general terms, and so once everyone had finished eating I put the TV on. Accordingly there ended up four of us in a line on the sofa watching the live broadcast of the parade: an elderly French couple, me, and the dog. It was interesting ... on TF1 they always give loads of background information about the history of the units, or technical details of the vehicles and aircraft, as they march past: like why the Foreign Legion always march at a slower pace than everyone else; why the Paris and Marseille fire brigades are military units while every other fire brigade is civillian, the significance of the colours and symbols on the uniforms and flags, etc. Watching and commenting together was fun too: "oh dear, Mme Macron's skirt is way, way too short, especially when she is sat high up on that platform" ... "you'd think a colonel of the military school of dentistry would get his own teeth sorted - his smile looks like a row of tombstones in an old abandoned cemetry" ... "that big pile of horse shit is still there, so somehow they've nearly all managed to avoid marching through it", ... etc.

One thing we particularly noticed was the number of female recruits mixed in amongst the men and in particular the number of senior officers who were women. For instance the commanding officer of the St Cyr military academy (that's the senior French army college - basically equivalent to Sandhurst) is now a woman, and she was by no means the only senior female officer leading whole units.

Anyway it all passed off without incident ... except that, in a very complicated choreographed, dressage-type, manoevre by the Garde Républicaine involving foot soldiers, motorcycles and lancers on horseback, two motorcycles clipped each other and the riders came off, directly in front of the President and his guests. No one was hurt - other than bruised pride - and once the accompanying military band had seamlessly adjusted the music by inserting a few extra bars, the show carried on. But I thought it was actually quite nice to see that, when, during then final salute, the unit's officer shrugged and apologetically rolled his eyes, Macron gave a sympathetic knowing nod and sympathetic smile back.

Oh, and I would imagine one particular airforce armourer will also get extra fatigues this evening. The Patrouille de France (that's the Fench airforce acrobatic team - like the British Red Arrows) leading the flypast, swooped over the Arc de Triomphe and the Champs Elysées displaying the national colours: red, white and blue - then red again - because the last plane's smoke came out the wrong colour, oops.


But hey, whatever, n'importe quoi, never mind, tant pis, who really cares ... France is now officially en vacances.

Smile
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 14 Jul 2018, 23:04

@Vizzer wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:
what then with the Brazilian scout jamboree?  A ridiculous organized scout manifestation, bordering mannerism?

The imagery here is not one of ridicule but of comic endearment. The scout movement was a product of British imperialism in the 1900s and was founded by a British army officer in order to promote patriotism. So its adoption by other countries (outside the British empire) is somewhat perplexing. Yet it has indeed been a global movement for more than 100 years with seemingly unlikely countries (such as Brazil) embracing it. With Brazil being the home of such things as the Rio Carnival (a camp icon if ever there was one) then this particular juxtaposition is what is endearing.

@PaulRyckier wrote:
let me think about certain British army films...with the saluting and all that...and other mannerisms...I hope I have now not hurt some British army men...

They’d have to be pretty thin skinned to feel hurt by that Paul. The British army (and the other branches of the UK armed forces) has long provided rich source material for cinematic comedy and indeed ridicule. Films such as Carry On Sergeant (1958), and television series such a Dad’s Army (1968) and It Ain’t Half Hot Mum (1974) spring to mind to name just a few. Needless to say that camp imagery also abounds in those productions.

P.S. Sid James (one of the lead actors in the Carry On films) was by all accounts a great authority on the question of ‘cleavages’:


Vizzer,

"The imagery here is not one of ridicule but of comic endearment."
Now I understand. You have a rich vocabulary, Vizzer. And I see now the link with Brazil too...

"The scout movement was a product of British imperialism in the 1900s and was founded by a British army officer in order to promote patriotism."Yes I read for the first time about Baden Powell in a short weekly history of four pages in the Tintin weekly, but now I see that the wiki differs from what I read in the Tintin weekly now some 60 years ago (such old visual rememberings are fresher than the recent ones Wink )
But as it is a bit complicated I will make a new thread of it...


The scout movement was a product of British imperialism in the 1900s and was founded by a British army officer in order to promote patriotism... then this particular juxtaposition is what is endearing...
"endearing" is in Dutch more "vertederend" (entendering) ...I understand it then according to your explanation as:
"this particular juxtaposition is at the same time comic and endearing"? and that makes a real sense to me now...this juxtaposition is a camp one...

"Films such as Carry On Sergeant (1958), and television series such a Dad’s Army (1968) and It Ain’t Half Hot Mum (1974) spring to mind to name just a few. Needless to say that camp imagery also abounds in those productions."
I saw it all except this first Carry on...I tried to find the full movie during quite some time...but the times are gone that one could find the old films for free on internet...now it is moneey money at the end...or you end in a porno site instead of your film...and yes I loved those films all of them, especially "Dad's Army"

"P.S. Sid James (one of the lead actors in the Carry On films) was by all accounts a great authority on the question of "cleavages""

First I didn't understand, but suddenly I remembered something from my research in my Collins paperback dictionary...:
informal: the separation between a woman's breasts (and that short paperback gives even details: esp. as revealed by a low cut dress)...no we haven't even a word for it, nor in Dutch nor in the Dutch dialects to define "it"...the nearest but it is rather denigrating in our dialect is: between (tussen) the "têtes" (French of "heads"(breasts)) also more decent "in her "décolleté"" (they translate it in my Dutch dictionary by "low neckline" but in our local slang it means exactly what it means as "cleavage"
Although: "un beau clivage entre ses seins" in French sounds also rather decent?

Ladies in your absence...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sat 14 Jul 2018, 23:17

Meles meles,

"Over breakfast this morning we were chatting about the Bastille Day Parade in general terms, and so once everyone had finished eating I put the TV on. Accordingly there ended up four of us in a line on the sofa watching the live broadcast of the parade: an elderly French couple, me, and the dog. It was interesting ..."

It seems to be rather "gemütlich" (gemoedelijk (cosy)) in house Badger...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 15 Jul 2018, 05:03

Re the talk on cleavage/-s, in Danish there's a word "kavalergang" which describes that part of the female body. Wikipedia suggest that the word formerly was considered [rude - my interpretation] slang, but no more is.
In my time I have heard various explanations for the purpose of this part of the female anatomy, which I shall not delve into here.

Otoh wiki gives a reference to a Swiss-German word "Studenten-Gässli" which my Google translator doesn't recognise, but, if I understand it right, the "-Gässli" part - as a parallel or synonym to the above mentioned Danish "-gang",  may mean something like a narrow passage, street or perhaps a gate. 
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 15 Jul 2018, 08:25

@PaulRyckier wrote:

Although: "un beau clivage entre ses seins" in French sounds also rather decent?

My Collins English/French Dictionary, while again giving no direct one word translation for a woman's cleavage, does give as an example this rather delightful expression to describe, say, a dress that revealed her cleavage:

... une robe qui laissait voir la naissance des seins (literally, a dress which allowed one to see the birth of her breasts). How charming.


Last edited by Meles meles on Sun 15 Jul 2018, 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 15 Jul 2018, 11:18

I think I already mentioned the time when I was looking at a foreign language sewing patterns online and got a message that a certain pattern rather than being -bust size x in, waist y in, hips z in - was udders size x!!!!  Oh the joys of internet automatic translation.  I belonged to the Girl Guides at one time  (Girl Scouts in some lands) which is the female equivalent of the Boy Scouts.  A schoolfriend who I am now mostly in touch with through Xmas cards and birthday cards was a helper with the Guides while her daughters were younger.  When her daughters grew older and became wives and mothers she said it was harder to get out of helping with guides than it was to get into it.

When I was still working full-time I can't remember the exact context for the discussion but I mentioned having known a male secretary and that he wasn't gay.  (He said he trained as a secretary because it was a line of work where there was usually work - he was the only lad in his class at college).  A colleague said he had worked with a male secretary who was gay and used the expression "as camp as Christmas" but said that the person was a really nice bloke.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Sun 15 Jul 2018, 17:10

@Meles meles wrote:
on TF1 they always give loads of background information about the history of the units, or technical details of the vehicles and aircraft, as they march past: like why the Foreign Legion always march at a slower pace than everyone else; why the Paris and Marseille fire brigades are military units while every other fire brigade is civillian, the significance of the colours and symbols on the uniforms and flags, etc.

Very informative - unlike the clot on the BBC today commenting on the World Cup Final. Just after kick-off he stated that this was "the fourth World Cup Final in a row to be an all-European contest". I seem to recall only 4 years ago the Final being between Germany and Argentina.

@Meles meles wrote:
you'd think a colonel of the military school of dentistry would get his own teeth sorted

That comment certainly produced some bright smiles and laughter over hear. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Tumbleweed Suite   Mon 16 Jul 2018, 21:53

@Meles meles wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:

Although: "un beau clivage entre ses seins" in French sounds also rather decent?

My Collins English/French Dictionary, while again giving no direct one word translation for a woman's cleavage, does give as an example this rather delightful expression to describe, say, a dress that revealed her cleavage:

... une robe qui laissait voir la naissance des seins (literally, a dress which allowed one to see the birth of her breasts). How charming.

Meles meles,

excuses yesterday busy with the refurbishing of the appartement, as I already told about...
Yes the French they can say it in their natural charming way...in Dutch I would say: die juist het begin van de welving van de borsten liet zien (which let just see the beginning of the curbing of the breasts) agreed, much less poetic than the French...

Kind regards from Paul.
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