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 The Dutch sawmills

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: The Dutch sawmills   Wed 10 Jan 2018, 21:53

The inventor of the Dutch sawmill: Cornelis Corneliszoon from Uitgeest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelis_Corneliszoon_van_Uitgeest
https://wetenschap.infonu.nl/techniek/5170-corneliszoon-uitvinder-van-de-zaagmolen.html

It is in Dutch, but to interest the British readers to look further in the thread, some controversial stuff Wink  as the English against an industrial revolution coming in from Holland...Wink
While in the rest of Europe the sawmill was introduced the English "hand sawing?" carpenters rebelled against the mill and it was postponed for a century

https://calculating.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/forgotten-history-wind-powered-sawmills/





And also in Dutch but I put it here if there are further questions about the practice and the technique of the Dutch sawmill.
https://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Houtzaagmolens_praktijkhandboek


Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Wed 10 Jan 2018, 22:16

As there was controversy from a reader, even belittling the statements from  the author of this article
https://wetenschap.infonu.nl/techniek/5170-corneliszoon-uitvinder-van-de-zaagmolen.html


I found confirmed what the author said in this book:
https://goo.gl/oYQ46z

Page 156.
First sawmill erected in England in 1663 by a Dutchman.
The millwrights were scared by angry mobs of hand-sawyers armed with axes.
Only in 1767, 104 years later as the Dutch author of the article says, the first sawmill became working in England.

Kind regards, Paul.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Wed 10 Jan 2018, 23:33

So the "underdogs" prevented its adoption!
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Thu 11 Jan 2018, 12:55

@PaulRyckier wrote:

Page 156.
First sawmill erected in England in 1663 by a Dutchman.
The millwrights were scared by angry mobs of hand-sawyers armed with axes.
Only in 1767, 104 years later as the Dutch author of the article says, the first sawmill became working in England.

I'm very surprised by those late dates. There are records of water-powered, oscillating frame-saw mills from all around Europe as far back at the early 14th century - the earliest reference I've found (after Roman sawmills dating from the 3rd century) is for one at Toulouse in France in 1303. Water-power was certainly being used in Medieval England not just for grinding grain but for hammering flax and fulling cloth; crushing metal ores; driving blacksmiths' trip hammers, bellows and grindstones; and from the late 15th century powering iron blast furnaces and boring-out cannon barrels. I can't find any specific reference to English sawmills before that one you mentioned above in 1663 - which incidentally seems to be the date by which it had already ceased working - but I can't believe that it was the very first to be operated in Britain.

It does however seem that sawmills were not common in England before the beginning of the 19th century, and I've seen that put down to the fact that nearly all native English timber trees were hardwoods: oak and elm principally, which were difficult to mill-cut until mechanical improvements in the 19th century and the introduction of steam engines, whereas sawmills were much more common in areas where they mostly used to cut softwoods (eg Scandinavia, and around the Baltic and Alps). But yes, a 'luddite' attitude in rejecting the new technology does also seem to have played a role.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Thu 11 Jan 2018, 13:19

I think Paul is referring to Wind powered sawmills, which were introduced around this time. Specifically in the Zaan district where several hundred of these mills were built. The land being too flat for decent water power.

Wind Powered Sawmills
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Thu 11 Jan 2018, 13:25

Paul, had you seen this article?

Eighteenth Century Britain's Missing Sawmills ,  by EW Cooney (Construction History Vol.7, 1991).

In it there's reference to possible government legislation which may account for the relative absence of sawmills in 18th century England:
"The Builder's Dictionary of 1734 it states that, 'There are mills for sawing of wood, carried both by wind and water, which perform it with much more expedition and ease, than is done by hand.' After a brief description of the vertical frame saw used in such mills it continues, 'These are frequently found abroad and were lately begun to be introduced into England, but Parliament thought fit to prohibit them, because they would spoil the sawyers' trade and ruin a great many families.'"
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Thu 11 Jan 2018, 22:50

Sorry Meles meles, Triceratops and Gilgamesh I was busy tonight on my hobbyhorse language and nationhood on Historum...tomorrow back...with answers in this thread...
http://historum.com/european-history/133186-do-engnlishdutchand-nordicpeople-consider-themselves-part-wider-germanic-family.html

Look once to the maps of authun, if you have time...about the "Brits"...

Kind regards to the three of you, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Fri 12 Jan 2018, 22:32

Sorry again, still "jailed" in the link from Historum that I mentioned yesterday...
I couldn't resist... Embarassed

Your mutual friend Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Dutch sawmills   Sat 13 Jan 2018, 22:19

@Meles meles wrote:
Paul, had you seen this article?

Eighteenth Century Britain's Missing Sawmills ,  by EW Cooney (Construction History Vol.7, 1991).

In it there's reference to possible government legislation which may account for the relative absence of sawmills in 18th century England:
"The Builder's Dictionary of 1734 it states that, 'There are mills for sawing of wood, carried both by wind and water, which perform it with much more expedition and ease, than is done by hand.' After a brief description of the vertical frame saw used in such mills it continues, 'These are frequently found abroad and were lately begun to be introduced into England, but Parliament thought fit to prohibit them, because they would spoil the sawyers' trade and ruin a great many families.'"

Meles meles,

I did that much research on google up to just minutes ago, that google has blocked me (big brother) with a formular to prove that I am not a robot;;;and it would work again if I waited for some time to start again with my rapid research... Wink
I found all what you said in the previous message and that here before and it seems to be an hoax...
Indeed with "early water powered sawmill in England" even with "water powerd sawmill" "in England" I didn't find that much...I think the location for a watermill and the supply of wood was not that evident, while wind energy is nearly everywhere, also where there is an easy supply of wood?
That about the hard and soft wood seems not to be a difficulty for the Dutch wind sawmills...they could regulate the speed with which the wood was pushed to the saws...and there was according to the kind of wood the regular change of saws...

Stone sawing from the Romans:
https://www.academia.edu/7326869/Stone_Sawing_Machines_of_Roman_and_Early_Byzantine_Times_in_the_Anatolian_Mediterranean
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierapolis_sawmill


And it seems that the early water powered saw mills were earlier introduced in America than in Britain;
http://www.ledyardsawmill.org/history/early-sawmills-in-new-england

And here is it about your government legislation:
https://www.arct.cam.ac.uk/Downloads/chs/vol7/article2.pdf
OOPs now I see it is the same: two people searching in google for the same question come perhaps both on the same entries Wink Wink
I many times find my own previous research again because I introduce nearly similar terms in google Wink


http://www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk/about-us/press-room/press-room/news-2016/national-mills-weekend
But you see 1767-1850




Kind regards, Paul.
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