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 Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim

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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 28 Mar 2018, 12:56

Hi Nordmann

A long time ago you queried what I had posted concerning what Richard Dawkins had written about Lord Kelvin in The God Delusion being unable to find it in your Norwegian edition, I think.  I said I would get back but never did as my local library very inconsiderately did not have a copy and I had no intention of buying one.  However, while looking for some books on Plato and Socrates in the philosophy section of the library for an assignment for my history degree, I noticed a copy of Dawkins book and so noted down the relevant part as below. 

‘Lord Kelvin, who tried to demonstrate that evolution was ruled out for lack of time.  The great thermodynamisist’s  erroneous datings assumed that the Sun was some kind of fire burning fuel which would run out in tens of millions of years , not thousands of millions.’

This is from the Black swan paperback edition 2007 p124 in the Chapter 'Arguments for God's existence: The argument from admired religious scientists'.

Dawkins is wrong on a number of counts.

1. If the Sun were really burning fuel - H2 - then its lifespan would be about 7,000 years, enough for Bishop Usher, the time up to Darwin and not a lot more.

2. Kelvin did not believe this anymore than astronomers of the time did, but based his argument on the then prevailing astronomical theory as to how the Sun generated its energy. This was by gravitational contraction and, on that basis, it was calculated that the Sun would last about 17 million years.  

3. Even though evolutionary biologists did not then realise how long it would take life to evolve, they knew 17 million years was far to short.  There answer was that the Sun must rely on some unknown means of generating energy - correct but hardly scientific - and that astronomers were always getting things wrong, which was certainly true.

My original point, which I stand by, was that Dawkins distorted Kelvin's argument, which was perfectly valid at the time, either because he was unaware of the prevailing scientific view concerning the Sun or (if he was aware) to deliberately paint Kelvin's argument in a bad light.

Happy Easter and apologies for taking so long to come back

ps I shall be in Oslo in about a month
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 28 Mar 2018, 13:10

Thanks for that, Tim. Kelvin's error, as Dawkins was claiming (I think), was that he used the extensive and at the time largely undisputed knowledge he had accrued in one discipline to draw scientific conclusions in another in which he was not actually qualified, and as a result allowed his interpretation of the relevant data to be exaggeratedly influenced by non-scientific sentiments he had acquired through his religious beliefs. This can happen - it's not a crime in most cases, science has a habit of finding out such aberrational deduction, refuting it, and simply moving on. However, as in Kelvin's case, it can act as a retardant in the general pursuit of knowledge, purely because of the prestige and respect enjoyed by the person whose mistake it is. Gainsaying reputable people's commentary is not undertaken lightly by rational people and even in science - where empirical data rules supreme - can seriously slow down theory development.

I'll wish you and yours also a Happy Easter (even if the phrase jars a bit given the details of the narrative it celebrates). Have a good one.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 02 Apr 2018, 14:46

Thanks for your response Nordmann, however I feel the need to disagree at least to an extent (now there's a surprise).  Dawkin could have made the point you have made while being entirely accurate about what Kelvin was actually saying instead of distorting it to give the impression that Kelvin was a fool.  Also Kelvin's argument was not actually one for the existence of God but one against Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection.  There were atheists before Darwin and, even from the start, there were Christians who had no problem with Darwin's theory.  Henry Wentworth Ackland was supportive and Frederick Temple, later archbishop of Canterbury, preached a sermon that was taken as being supportive of the theory of evolution at the time of the Oxford debate.  And then of course there is Alfred Wallace.

On the subject of Easter, in 1980 I was in Oslo on Easter Saturday desperately looking for a food shop that was open, they all seemed to be shut.  We were touring Scandinavia on a rail pass, youth hostelling on a very tight budget and could certainly not afford eating out in Norway.  It was quite a shock to find nearly everything shut.

 Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 02 Apr 2018, 20:48

Tim of Aclea wrote:
Dawkin could have made the point you have made while being entirely accurate about what Kelvin was actually saying instead of distorting it to give the impression that Kelvin was a fool.  Also Kelvin's argument was not actually one for the existence of God but one against Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection. 

I actually thought that this was precisely Dawkin's point, and that he did not call Kelvin a fool, only incorrect. His criticism was that Kelvin could not easily entertain the possibility that he might be wrong, and that this intransigence damaged the progress of scientific enquiry, which was a trait and consequence that he was discussing in the chapter.

Norwegians use Easter to devour murder mysteries and other assorted crime novellas in their hytta refuges up the mountains. An exceedingly civilised practice, though one that does unfortunately lead to something of a complete civil shut-down for a few days and for which one has to have had the foresight to stock up on essentials beforehand. Tourists who haven't done their research in advance are at something of a disadvantage, I agree. I like it however - Oslo reduced to a population of three and a half people and a dog is a peculiarly peaceful place. It all ends tomorrow alas ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 09 Apr 2018, 11:33

Dawkins stated that Kelvin 'assumed that the Sun was some kind of fire burning fuel'.  Dawkins was wrong as Kelvin did not assume this but merely pointed out that the then current astronomical view of how the Sun generated its energy was not compatible with the time span Darwin's theory.  Dawkins did not do his homework.  Mind you he could have been even more wrong it he had started that Kelvin either assumed that the Sun was a lump of hot metal or a god but, even for Dawkins, that would have been too wrong.

By the way, the reason for my original post was that you stated that what I had written Dawkins had said about Kelvin was not in your Norwegian edition of the book.  I wondered if you had either missed it or had someone pointed out to Dawkins his error and he had corrected his homework in time for the Norwegian edition.

On the subject of historians not doing their homework, you may remember a post I did on the 1860 Oxford debate between Bishop Wilberforce and Huxley.  According to a book I am reading, there was a letter written only 4 days after the debate by John Richard Green in which he refers to the exchange between Wilberforce and Huxley that does not accord with claimed account from 40 years later.  Green, by the way, was dead by then and so, like Wilberforce and Huxley, not in a position to point this out.

Thank you for your explanation as to the lack of shops open on Easter Saturday in Oslo.  Now it is quite easy to do one's homework and check on the web (I just did out of interest), but in 1980?  My current guidebooks don't mention it and neither did the Norwegian Tourist Board when I went there in 1980 (doing my homework).
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 09 Apr 2018, 11:46

The omission regarding Norway advertising its closed shop policy over Easter is probably down to another Norwegian trait which takes a little getting used to - the assumption that because they do it then the whole world does it too. I've had reason to correct them on this a few times (as I'm sure you'd appreciate is my wont).

I checked the Norwegian version of Dawkins' book again and it seems you are correct - they changed the text considerably (I checked against an English version in which Dawkins does indeed use the phrase you allude to) and not just there but in several other places too where a claim is made without annotation. It would appear that he had either been taken to task in the meantime regarding this lack of annotation or had himself been dissatisfied with how he phrased things, so it would be interesting to see if the text has also been adjusted between English editions too. Mind you, having myself translated English into Norwegian I am no stranger to discovering factual errors and evidence of "loose" editing in original texts which simply cannot be translated in good faith and which I have referred back to publishers. One I remember was a feminist publication in which it was stated "we do not know at which university Mary Anning acquired her palaeonthological learning but it would be wrong to assume that her tutor was necessarily male". That was wrong on so many levels that it led to the publisher changing their mind on proceeding with the edition completely, which meant I didn't get paid either. But "probity above annuity", as Erasmus advised More! At least I was in good company in my self-induced impoverishment.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyFri 27 Apr 2018, 10:25

Hi Nordmann

Thank you for your response.  When I had a chance to look at Dawkins again, I did assume that it must be missing from your Norwegian edition as it was so easy to find the reference.

Concerning translations into Norwegian, I thought the norm was to translate into one's own language?  My second wife's father (my first wife died in 2007) was an eminent professor of translation theory with a number of books published on the subject - A Textbook of Translation (1988), Paragraphs on Translation (1989), About Translation (1991), More Paragraphs on Translation (1998).

regards

Tim

ps I mentioned on my first post that I was getting some books out on Plato and Socrates for my history degree and now having ploughed through them (although I did find The Trial of Socrates quite interesting) and having finished my essay, I will be posting a query on Socrates on the philosophy page when I get back from my next trip.  My next essay is on the 18th C evangelical revival in England which is more in my area.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyFri 27 Apr 2018, 11:41

The more usual arrangement here in Norway is that one translates into whichever language in which one is proficient, whether one's mother tongue or not, and that the result is then "washed" (as they say here) by an editor - not a foolproof system either but does allow for a greater scope in commission than if one is restricted to a particular language.

Theory regarding translation is complex and often quite subjective - the amount of variables in deciding for oneself, and also in relation to others' work, regarding what constitutes a "good" translation makes it a minefield, both in terms of engaging in it as a job and indeed in cobbling together worthwhile advice for others to follow. Most of what I have translated has been thankfully technical and therefore less open to interpretation or in need of drastic rephrasing to retain sense, but even the driest academic document can still contain quite challenging phraseology and vocabulary that can severely test the person entrusted with retaining its semantic integrity from one language to the other. Some people in fact actually prefer florid fiction (and there's a lot of it about) - purely because its semantic integrity is all too often so damaged to the point of incomprehensibility anyway, even before translation (especially American English works as we all tend to agree upon at this end), that it actually frees the translator up considerably. Indeed the result can in fact be a better constructed work than that which landed on one's desk in its original form. We suspect here that the same is true for Jo Nesbø in reverse.

Look forward to a thread about Socrates - a much misunderstood person in the modern era, I reckon, especially when he's lumped in with other "philosophers" as if he shared the same background and motives for his philosophising - I'm sure you'll appreciate after reading up on the guy that he was something of a one-off, though not quite to the extent that he was "permanently pissed", as the Python song maintained. However one gets the notion that maybe he wasn't too far off it either.

The fact that we know him only through others' references from the period, but that they show rather remarkable consistency in their praise, citations and criticisms, means he is one of the less arcane characters from ancient history despite his apparent aversion to writing anything down himself! And he looked like a boxer too, which always helps get an argument going in the academy/taverna ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyThu 31 May 2018, 16:05

Hi Nordmann

another thing I came across in Norway that they do not do elsewhere - or at least certainly not in England.

In Trondheim, and it was not May 17th, the complex, of which our hotel was part, was full of Norwegians, most of whom were dressed in National Costume.  On enquiring at reception we were advised that they were attending what as described as a 'confirmation' for young people, but a secular one related to 'coming of age'.

One thing that has not changed since 1980 is that trains are as slow as ever, Norway is as expensive as ever but the ethnic mix, especially in Oslo and Bergen, is quite different.

regards

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyThu 31 May 2018, 21:57

Tim of Aclea wrote:
Hi Nordmann

another thing I came across in Norway that they do not do elsewhere - or at least certainly not in England.

In Trondheim, and it was not May 17th, the complex, of which our hotel was part, was full of Norwegians, most of whom were dressed in National Costume.  On enquiring at reception we were advised that they were attending what as described as a 'confirmation' for young people, but a secular one related to 'coming of age'.

One thing that has not changed since 1980 is that trains are as slow as ever, Norway is as expensive as ever but the ethnic mix, especially in Oslo and Bergen, is quite different.

regards

Tim


Tim,

"coming of age" is that then 12 years?
I did myself research and it is more complicated than that, I see. On the first sight the Europeans both the Christians and the humanists and I see also the Jewish have it at 12...Overhere there are more and more the Humanis t"Lentefeesten". The Christian feasts and confirmation at 12 are more about tradition for most parents, and they have more pomp and ceremony than the competition. But there are also those who do it out of conviction at both sides. My confirmation by a bishop was at 11 due to my birthday and one year earlier at school...and last week as it is the season both with the Catholics and the Humanists, the grandson attended a "Lentefeest" of a daughter of a friend...But the term "Lentefeest" (spring feast) as it was first the equivalent of the "First Communion" at seven is now also used as alternative for the Holy Communion, the confirmation, and also called "Lentefeest" or second Lentefeest...and they also try to compete with pomp and ceremony Wink
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_age

"Norway is as expensive as ever but the ethnic mix, especially in Oslo and Bergen, is quite different."

Yes expensive as ever in Oslo...the grandson was there already several times, while visiting the Karolinska...
https://ki.se/en/startpage
And perhaps in the near future a post-doctorat overthere...and already two times 6 months at Kopenhagen...another expensive city...and the granddaugther at Zurich als such a...and already two times six months at New York , as expensive as Zurich...the only solution is share an appartment with four...some 1500 Euro a month pro person (6000 the whole)...
Yes the three are in the top ten...as I read in the newspaper today in the "café"...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/these-are-the-most-expensive-cities-in-the-world/


Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyFri 01 Jun 2018, 08:06

Tim of Aclea wrote:
Hi Nordmann

another thing I came across in Norway that they do not do elsewhere - or at least certainly not in England.

In Trondheim, and it was not May 17th, the complex, of which our hotel was part, was full of Norwegians, most of whom were dressed in National Costume.  On enquiring at reception we were advised that they were attending what as described as a 'confirmation' for young people, but a secular one related to 'coming of age'.

One thing that has not changed since 1980 is that trains are as slow as ever, Norway is as expensive as ever but the ethnic mix, especially in Oslo and Bergen, is quite different.

regards

Tim

Hi Tim - yes, I was a guest at one of those civic confirmation ceremonies last year in the Rådhus here in Oslo. It obviously meant a lot to the kids, and the ceremony managed to generate the right mix of solemnity, celebration and even some good advice from invited speakers about civic responsibility, personal behaviour and maturity etc etc. The year before I was guest at the Lutheran version in the Cathedral here which in fact wasn't all that much different - it began with a hymn instead of an anthem at the Rådhus, had a cursory bit at the end implying that God wanted them all to be good Christians, but otherwise was more or less the same as the civic version with invited speakers going on about being good citizens etc. The real point in both was for the guests to show off their bunads and the kids to rake in a few bob, I reckon, and for my taste both were a little too artificially constructed as pageants go - I'm not a pageant person I suppose.

Not sure about the trains being slower than elsewhere - people from outside probably underestimate the distance and terrains involved in getting round this place (all kids learn in school that if you stuck a pin in Oslo and swiveled the land around on it then Nord Kåpe ends up just south of Sicily). What I will say about the trains here though is that the scenery on some of the intercity routes is breathtaking in places, especially mid-Winter.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyFri 01 Jun 2018, 19:52

nordmann,

"Hi Tim - yes, I was a guest at one of those civic confirmation ceremonies last year in the Rådhus here in Oslo. It obviously meant a lot to the kids, and the ceremony managed to generate the right mix of solemnity, celebration and even some good advice from invited speakers about civic responsibility, personal behaviour and maturity etc etc. The year before I was guest at the Lutheran version in the Cathedral here which in fact wasn't all that much different - it began with a hymn instead of an anthem at the Rådhus, had a cursory bit at the end implying that God wanted them all to be good Christians, but otherwise was more or less the same as the civic version with invited speakers going on about being good citizens etc. The real point in both was for the guests to show off their bunads and the kids to rake in a few bob, I reckon, and for my taste both were a little too artificially constructed as pageants go - I'm not a pageant person I suppose."

Had first to seek for "bunad" in my Collins paperback dictionary, and the word wasn't mentioned and now I understand why:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunad

"bob" I understand already from the praxis on the English language boards (fora)...

" I was guest at the Lutheran version in the Cathedral here which in fact wasn't all that much different - it began with a hymn instead of an anthem at the Rådhus, had a cursory bit at the end implying that God wanted them all to be good Christians, but otherwise was more or less the same as the civic version with invited speakers going on about being good citizens etc. The real point in both was for the guests to show off their bunads and the kids to rake in a few bob, I reckon, and for my taste both were a little too artificially constructed as pageants go - I'm not a pageant person I suppose."

Yes it is the same overhere as I mentioned with the "Lentefeest" and the Holy Communion, as we call it overhere (the confimation?) . Pomp and ceremony...I received a new "costume" and as "bob" my first clock...
And now I suddenly remember from some 74 years ago, that probably the "confirmation" is our "vormsel". I didn't find it in my Dutch-English dictionary (but it is a "van Dale" supposed to be Dutch, but mostly having not Southern-Dutch words as it is from "The Netherlands"). But in a very thick, same author van Dale, Dutch-French dictionary I found for "vormsel" "la confirmation"...
And now I remember again the Holy Communion was apart from the "confirmation" done by the Bishop...Not sure anymore if it was on the same moment...

"and for my taste both were a little too artificially constructed as pageants go - I'm not a pageant person I suppose." Wink
 I am not one too, but I appreciate what the Brugean Holy Blood procession brings for Bruges and especially a few bobs for the local "commerce"...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyFri 01 Jun 2018, 20:14

Addendum to the previous message.

I forgot to add a film about the Holy Blood Procession....

"Yes it is the same overhere as I mentioned with the "Lentefeest" and the "Holy Communion", as we call it overhere (the confimation?) . Pomp and ceremony...I received a new "costume" and as "bob" my first clock..."

I wanted also to add a question to Meles meles if it is the same in his neck of the woods there in the South of France? As I know it is the same in the North of France, I suppose it is not otherwise in the South?

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptySun 03 Jun 2018, 09:17

Thank you for both your responses Paul and Nordmann.

I recently went to the first communion of my nephew and godson who is Roman Catholic, he would have been 10 at the time.  It was obvious from the quality of the singing of the hymns that most of the congregation were not regular church attenders.  The priest was surprisingly young for a Catholic priest in England and the sermon I thought was quite good - being a preacher myself (in addition to giving talks and lectures on the history of the wartime pipeline network) I tend to be quite critical of sermons.  Confirmation in the Anglican church tends to be at a bit older age but can vary.

On the subject of train times.  when we caught the train from Kyoto to Tokyo it took 2 hours and 10 minutes (trains for Tokyo were also arriving every 3 minutes) - distance 450km.  Train from Oslo to Bergen took around 6 hrs and 45 minutes - distance about the same (4 trains a day). Agree about the scenery though.

regards

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptySun 03 Jun 2018, 20:01

Tim of Aclea wrote:

I recently went to the first communion of my nephew and godson who is Roman Catholic, he would have been 10 at the time.  It was obvious from the quality of the singing of the hymns that most of the congregation were not regular church attenders.  The priest was surprisingly young for a Catholic priest in England and the sermon I thought was quite good - being a preacher myself (in addition to giving talks and lectures on the history of the wartime pipeline network) I tend to be quite critical of sermons.  Confirmation in the Anglican church tends to be at a bit older age but can vary.

Tim,

"It was obvious from the quality of the singing of the hymns that most of the congregation were not regular church attenders."

I think it is the same overhere in Belgium and even while the autochtone population is more than 90% Roman-Catholic, at least in name...and they only murmur the songs with the church chorus, who have to do the "work"...
But I guess in a "normal" mass, where it are only the true practizing Christians, who attend the singing would be quite otherwise...the time of the Fifties and even before, when people went to the mass not out of conviction, but for the eyes of the people are far away...

"The priest was surprisingly young "

As overhere, as there are nearly no new priests anymore, the priests of the new generation have to be distributed over several parishes, some have four or five parishes and as there are no oldies anymore they have to demand the scarce young ones...some parishes have even a black priest from the former Belgian Congo...and as the remaining Roman-Catholics are really the convicted ones and much less than in the Fifties, their task is easier too...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptySun 10 Jun 2018, 17:59

Tim of Aclea wrote:
On the subject of train times.  when we caught the train from Kyoto to Tokyo it took 2 hours and 10 minutes (trains for Tokyo were also arriving every 3 minutes) - distance 450km.  Train from Oslo to Bergen took around 6 hrs and 45 minutes - distance about the same (4 trains a day).

That's slightly unfair as it doesn't really compare like with like. Norway is a sparsely populated country and Oslo and Bergen (the 2 largest cities) are little more than overgrown towns. It would be better to compare Japan to, say, France. But then France is still a lot less densely populated than Japan. Better still compare it to Britain. In fact England is even more densely populated than Japan is.      

The distance between Tokyo and Osaka (the hub route of the Shinkansen) is 225 miles while the distance between London and Newcastle-upon-Tyne is longer at 250 miles. And the distance between Paris and Lyons (the hub route of the TGV) is 250 miles while the distance between London and Glasgow is longer at 350 miles (which is also longer than the 280 miles between Tokyo and Kyoto). It takes about 4 hours 50 minutes to travel by train from London to Glasgow. So bearing this in mind the Oslo to Bergen time (over and through very mountainous terrain) compares quite favourably in this.

The TGV in France is nearly 40 years old, while Japan's Shinkansen is over 50 years old. In other words, even if 'HS2' is opened in 15 years time, then the UK will at that time still be 70 years behind Japan. And 'HS2' won't even reach Newcastle-upon-Tyne let alone Scotland. Those of us living in glass-houses ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 11 Jun 2018, 21:45

Vizzer,

"The TGV in France is nearly 40 years old, while Japan's Shinkansen is over 50 years old. In other words, even if 'HS2' is opened in 15 years time, then the UK will at that time still be 70 years behind Japan. And 'HS2' won't even reach Newcastle-upon-Tyne let alone Scotland. Those of us living in glass-houses ..."

"And 'HS2' won't even reach Newcastle-upon-Tyne let alone Scotland. Those of us living in glass-houses ..."

Vizzer it is perhaps because of my poor knowledge of English or of my understanding of British circumstances...?

What do you mean by "living in glass-houses"?
Or "HS2 won't reach Newcastle..." Why not?

Kind regards from Paul.
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Meles meles
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Meles meles

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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 11 Jun 2018, 22:12

The full expression, Paul, is: "People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" ... or words to that effect.

And the reason the HS2 won't reach Newcastle is simply because of budget constraints and penny-pinching: accordingly there are currently no plans to extend the high-speed network that far.

Bear in mind that every major infrastructure project in Britain - be it railways, ports or extra airport runways - always seems to take decades to put in place. Meanwhile in the rest of Europe, as you are well aware, we generally just get on with it. Where I am the project to link up the French and Spanish high-speed rail networks via a route through the southern Pyrenees between Barcelona (in Spain) and Perpignan (in France) went from proposal to finished project - including boring a 15km long tunnel under the mountains - in just over ten years. It still, as it did decades ago, takes about 3 hours to drive from Perpignan to Barcelona along the E15 motorway, but by train it's now 50 minutes, ..... and of course the route also links direct to Madrid, Lisbon, Paris, Brussels, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw, Rome etc.
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PaulRyckier
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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 11 Jun 2018, 23:24

Meles meles,

thank you very much for explaining in depth the questions that I had. Of course I understand it all now...
Meles meles as I explained here before I at least understand now where "meles meles meles" stands for...
Of course, if I wasn't a stupid Belgian, I could have understood it that the photo of your avatar was hinting to meles meles...
Perhaps to the discharge? relief? of that stupid Belgian it can perhaps be said that he never heard of meles meles...and certainly not in relation with animals....had you said to him that "meles meles" was a "das" he would have never believed you....

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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Tim of Aclea

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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyTue 19 Jun 2018, 17:12

Nordmann

A quick question concerning the change in ethnic mix in Norway (especially Oslo and Bergen) since 1980.  Friends of mine who had been in both cities 5 years ago said they had not noticed this.  Looking online it said that immigration started taking of c1990; so were they just not very observant or is the change between Europeans and non-Europeans more recently.

As per my 'Only a Servant' posts when my father brought home a West Indian friend from Ruskin College, one of my sisters (I was not yet born) asked if she could touch his skin because she had never seen a black person before.

regards

Tim
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nordmann
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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 20 Jun 2018, 06:14

Are you asking me to measure ethnicity by skin colour? Seems silly.
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Tim of Aclea
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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 20 Jun 2018, 13:48

No. I just noticed that there were a lot more non-Europeans there than when I was in Oslo and Bergen in 1980.  My friends had not noticed this 5 years ago and so I wondered whether it was primarily as a result of a very recent surge in refugees?  I noticed the same in Stockholm when we were there last year.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 20 Jun 2018, 14:01

The full breakdown from the last census is:

Africa                                           127,155       ...           93,735         ...           33,420     ...         2.4
Asia including Turkey                      304,042       ...         227,631        ...            76,411     ...         5.7
North America                                     11,404         ...         10,580           ...              824       ...       0.2
South and Central America                   25,519      ...            22,171         ...             3,348     ...         0.5
Oceania                                              2,252         ...           2,169           ...                83      ...        0.0

The first total is a total of immigrants and Norwegian-born children of immigrants
The second total is immigrants only
The third total is children of immigrants only
The last figure is their respective percentage of the total population (immigrants and their Norwegian-born children)

There has been no real "surge" of refugees as such - however the percentage of Africans has climbed as that of Asians has declined in recent years.
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PaulRyckier
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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyWed 20 Jun 2018, 22:02

Tim and nordmann,

About Belgium:
I agree it is from wiki but it was the best I found for the moment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Belgium
But it seems to be an old wiki as for the foreign population.
After three quarters of an hour searching on the net I give up...
As there is so much controversy about the Muslim population it seems not to be easy to find recent statitistics from a reiable source...
As the foreign population of European descent seems not to be a problem all is focused on the Muslim population, in Belgium mostly from Moroccan and Turkish descent...
I don't know if this source is reiable:
https://www.worldatlas.com/about.htm
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/largest-ethnic-groups-and-nationalities-in-belgium.html
As I read about the Flemish and Walloons as different ethnic groups, they have the same ethnie and only differ in language Dutch and French.
Was also surprized about characteristics of Flemings and Walloons  Wink
From the site: Future trends:A growing Muslim population in Belgium is predicted to reach 10.2% of the total population by 2030.
I read on another site for the Turks nowadays 140,000 on a total population of 11.5 million...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Belgium

There is a growing friction between the population of European descent and the Muslims and officials try to mask this reality, but each day there are new indices as the latest vote for Erdogan. The Turkish population of Belgium the highest vote for him of all the European countries. People see it now, they are not Belgians but Turks in Belgium...
It seem that the Moroccans are more Belgian friendly, but I hear from all kind of sources, among them someone working in a French fries factory that they many times on basis of their belief try to escape the work on the back of others and I didn't nearly believe it: citing the Koran...and that is West-Flanders were there are not that much Muslims...and yes perhaps the better ones have to suffer for the bad ones, but once it is in the common mouth that the Muslims...
I hope for the best, as the Roman-Catholics adapted also in Belgium since now seventy years ago...with a ratio of ten to one of the European population that predicts trouble for the Muslim population and for the autochtone one...sad, sad, very sad...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim Empty
PostSubject: Re: Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim   Dawkins. Kelvin and the Sun's lifespan - message for Nordmann from Tim EmptyMon 25 Jun 2018, 16:01

Returning to train times

London to Newcastle takes under 3 hours or nearly 4 hours less than Oslo to Bergen, I fully understand why Norwegian trains are slow but that does not alter them being slow when one is wanting to travel by one.

Tim
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