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 Republic of North Macedonia

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Republic of North Macedonia   Wed 20 Jun 2018, 22:57

In the BBC time I argued with a Greek engineer from Thessaloníki about Fyrom (The former Yugoslavian republic of Macedonia). We nearly discussed it to dead. And then another from Fyrom a certain Alexander discussed with me about languages and all that. Some said that it was Bulgarian and some that it was a separate language.  I think it was Alexander, whospole about the own Macedonian langauge. But, as they did as the whole Yugoslavian Macedonia was their country, I then asked them about the Albanians as nearly one third were albanian speaking...and perhaps language and religion was linked there...perhaps with the other two thirds also language and religion...but they both didn't answer that much...

And now all seems to be at the end soved in peace, as I mentioned in the endless thread on Historum in message 120 in answer on the Greek Solidaire...
http://historum.com/european-history/132195-fyr-macedonia-s-claims-ancient-macedon-herritage-12.html
Dear Solidaire,
I haven't read the thread. Had in the time of the BBC a never ending discussion with an engineer from Thessaloníki and a certain "Alexander" from FYR/ Macedonia. You can understand that it was a never ending thread. But I read today in the paper that it was all solved...
Kind regards from Paul.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/12/macedonia-agrees-to-new-name-after-27-year-dispute-with-greece


Perhaps can Islanddawn comment on all that? Why it needed 27 years to come to an agreement on an issue that was in my eyes, I agree from outside, not such a discussion worth? And as I discussed it nearly to dead with the Greek engineer and the two from Fyrom, I can perhaps at least say that I had "some"! information about the problem.

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Thu 21 Jun 2018, 10:32

I can't contribute anything of assistance, Paul, just commenting that it's an interesting topic.  Sometimes threads hold an interest for me (like the one about the frontier forts built by the settlers of what would become the USA) but I don't have enough knowledge to make a meaningful comment so I sometimes visit the site and "lurk" without posting anything.  I do remember the way everything almost seemed to "go to hell in a handcart" when Yugoslavia split into its component parts.  There had been peace under Tito - did people of different ethnic groups or different religions just tolerate each other in former Yugoslavia under Tito's rule and a resentment which had been simmering below the surface break out after his death?  I had known that there was an Islamic incursion into Europe which was pushed back many centuries ago but I hadn't realised that there had been indigenous people in many Eastern European countries who were of the Islamic faith for several centuries.
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Thu 21 Jun 2018, 18:17

There are no easy answers Paul, it is a hideously complicated problem much of which I still don't understand even after 20 years. But a few thoughts for now off the top of my head for now

a) The deal is by no means done or solved as it still has to pass through both Parliaments. There are people on both sides of the border who don't want it and the decisions are all going to be based on internal politics.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/229832/opinion/ekathimerini/comment/yes-to-north-macedonia

http://www.macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.7152

b) It isn't only about the name issue for Greeks. In fact the name is possibly the least of it as there is a large faction within 'North Macedonia' who openly claim Greek Macedonian territory, this is known as Greater Macedonia.



As there is a large faction within Albania who openly claim northern Greek territory (and in particular since oil and gas reserves were discovered in the Ionian) also known as Greater Albania.



And then there is Turkey whose government (not merely a faction within but the current Turkish government) openly claim a full half of the Aegean sea. This map was published by the Turkish Coast Guard.



So you see when one is bordered by 2 slightly hostile states and 1 fully hostile state fear plays a big part when one of those countries concerned begins laying claim to your name and history. Greek people do wonder what is going to be their next step in all of this.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Thu 21 Jun 2018, 23:05

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I can't contribute anything of assistance, Paul, just commenting that it's an interesting topic.  Sometimes threads hold an interest for me (like the one about the frontier forts built by the settlers of what would become the USA) but I don't have enough knowledge to make a meaningful comment so I sometimes visit the site and "lurk" without posting anything.  I do remember the way everything almost seemed to "go to hell in a handcart" when Yugoslavia split into its component parts.  There had been peace under Tito - did people of different ethnic groups or different religions just tolerate each other in former Yugoslavia under Tito's rule and a resentment which had been simmering below the surface break out after his death?  I had known that there was an Islamic incursion into Europe which was pushed back many centuries ago but I hadn't realised that there had been indigenous people in many Eastern European countries who were of the Islamic faith for several centuries.

Lady,

sadly my message is gone again, perhaps too long at the link I provided and when returning the sad "no mode specified" and that means post lost.

I start again:

I spent most of the evening with doing research for Islanddawn's comments and reading the whole long thread I mentioned here above from Historum about the question of the title of the thread.

"There had been peace under Tito - did people of different ethnic groups or different religions just tolerate each other in former Yugoslavia under Tito's rule and a resentment which had been simmering below the surface break out after his death?  I had known that there was an Islamic incursion into Europe which was pushed back many centuries ago but I hadn't realised that there had been indigenous people in many Eastern European countries who were of the Islamic faith for several centuries."

There was already trouble before Tito under Kingdom of Yugoslavia before WWII and even before WWI...after all Bosnia was one of the causes of WWI...
I discussed the Yugoslavian Civil War nearly to dead on the BBC with Darklight (he was here also till January 2012) as he was involved as radio operator for the European peace corps, he had some direct experience, but many times I said to him that it was not because he was there that he had the wider knowledge and background of the history of the conflict...and also in the clinch with the Greek engineer from Thessaloníki...
The best I read about the confilct among other sources was the Srebenica report of the NIOD (the Dutch institute for war documentation)
https://www.niod.nl/en/srebrenica-report
I read some parts in the time even till 2 o'clock in the morning...
Click on "report", click on "Appendix IV" History and reminders in East-Bosnia..page 1 till 61 the prehistory of the conflict...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Thu 21 Jun 2018, 23:20

@Islanddawn wrote:
There are no easy answers Paul, it is a hideously complicated problem much of which I still don't understand even after 20 years. But a few thoughts for now off the top of my head for now

a) The deal is by no means done or solved as it still has to pass through both Parliaments. There are people on both sides of the border who don't want it and the decisions are all going to be based on internal politics.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/229832/opinion/ekathimerini/comment/yes-to-north-macedonia

http://www.macropolis.gr/?i=portal.en.the-agora.7152

b) It isn't only about the name issue for Greeks. In fact the name is possibly the least of it as there is a large faction within 'North Macedonia' who openly claim Greek Macedonian territory, this is known as Greater Macedonia.
As there is a large faction within Albania who openly claim northern Greek territory (and in particular since oil and gas reserves were discovered in the Ionian) also known as Greater Albania.
And then there is Turkey whose government (not merely a faction within but the current Turkish government) openly claim a full half of the Aegean sea. This map was published by the Turkish Coast Guard.



So you see when one is bordered by 2 slightly hostile states and 1 fully hostile state fear plays a big part when one of those countries concerned begins laying claim to your name and history. Greek people do wonder what is going to be their next step in all of this.


Thank you very much for your comments Islanddawn and your links. I mentioned it already to LiR, spent my whole evening with research and reading the whole thread I mentioned above from Historum.
To start with your last link about the territorial waters, the six and twelve miles zones and also the economic 300 miles zones (I made a thread about it on this forum...as with the continental shelve and all)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute
It seems to be a bit outdated as it is not reckoning with the new Erdogan nationalism?
Some more actual link?
https://medium.com/@HellenicLeaders/the-importance-of-the-greek-exclusive-economic-zone-db4cc17c4669


See you again tomorrow and kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Fri 22 Jun 2018, 11:43

Thank you for the information, Paul and it was interesting to see what ID has to say also.  I'm not well - headachy today - so I'm going to try and rest but will hopefully return and reprise this information when I feel better and can take the information in.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Fri 22 Jun 2018, 19:58

Islanddawn,

addendum to my previous message to you:

And they start again on Historum...unbelievable but true...will there ever come an end to that trouble...two thirds of Northern Macedonia, together with Bulgaria and Greece are Russian related and nevertheless...sometimes one would prefer the Socialists and Communists above the Nationalists of all sides...
http://historum.com/general-history/136717-macedonia-greek-region-country.html
And while I think on it...the greater Albania...and the Turkish role in Europe...saw recently a documentary about Kosovo...an Albanian female teacher...it is schools we need to educate people to play their role in society...but instead with money of Turkey mosques allover the place...and they showed in the documentary perhaps also on an exagerated way photos of the beautiful white mosques. (one is never sure what truth one is looking to, propaganda with an agenda or not. I try to always check the source or the "about us", as one even renomated papers can't trust. But that is perhaps also a strategy, to produce that much fake news, that the alert citizen don't believe anything anymore and so is an easy pray for the populists?)

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Fri 22 Jun 2018, 20:25

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Thank you for the information, Paul and it was interesting to see what ID has to say also.  I'm not well - headachy today - so I'm going to try and rest but will hopefully return and reprise this information when I feel better and can take the information in.


Take your time Lady...I too some three or four hours on internet for my fora, if I have time...especially now for Res Historica...but the rest of the day quite other businesses...as for instance this afternoon...together with the wife...female coiffeur (coiffeuse)  first the whole scenario of my wife's hair...then cutting my hair, while it is too long and in preparation for the feast of Sunday, second feast for my 75 years...preparing for installing a new kitchen in an appartement for hire...the packets for the prefab kitchen are already on the appartement...saw now that the new boiler of 5L under the kitchen sink, needed a three way valve to avoid explosion...never heard about it...during our café and ice horn in the tearoom, I went to the nearby hobbycenter branch, where I bought the boiler...Lucky some employee was clever enough, perhaps working in plumbing after his hours, said that that small boiler was without overpressure valve as those of 10 L and more, where I was used too, but with a special pipe entering in the chromated valve above the sink apart of  the warm and cold pipe, which evacuated the overpressure of the hot water from the boiler in the sink...and bought such three way valve to install from Monday on...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Sun 24 Jun 2018, 21:49

Islanddawn,





Yes "Greater Albania" in the time on the BBC in my discussions with Darklight I mentioned that the Albanian UCK was as atrocious as the Serbs... he seemed to not believe me, as the US media perhaps under the influence of the Albanian US lobby and also overhere let believe that only the Serbs were the atrocious perpetrators. And yes the Serbs had already a genocide name since Srebenica. He was also sceptic about negociations between Croats and Serbians about a partition of Bosnia, until I mentioned the date and the place. I also mentioned that it was Germany who first recognized Slovenia...something to do with the pre 1918 links of the Austrian Empire...?

But back to the greater Albania...
Indeed about Macedonia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism_(Republic_of_Macedonia)
And as I studied the Kosovo war that in depth when it happened, I recognize it all about the UCK in Macedonia too...
And yes even in Greece...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_communities_in_Greece
According to the wiki they seem in Greece rather peaceful...? What is your opinion about this wiki?

About Kosovo, there where I mentioned the French documentary to LiR? about the present day situation in Kosovo. A female teacher, who said that they urgently needed schools in Kosovo, but that with the aid of Turkey they are building everywhere brand new mosques, which they showed in the documentary...I don't know how far this documentary is biased...but is Turkey stirring trouble in Europe via Kosovo?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Serbs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Kosovo
And there seems to be an agreement between Serbia and Kosovo: Brussels 2013. But as I read in the wiki the Albanian North Kosovars need protected buses to pass through Serb territory...perhaps the same as Serbs passing from the Serb enclaves to North Kosovo?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Republic of North Macedonia   Fri 29 Jun 2018, 00:35

Islanddawn,

was busy with the Greater Macedonia this evening:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia
And found also the book:
https://www.amazon.com/Macedonia-Greece-Struggle-Define-Balkan/dp/0786437677

As I always seek about the background and the author a certain John Shea I got gradually angry as I didn't found anything on internet till I found comments as funded by the Turks from Herin (have to search that again) and and found also about a doctor of medicine of an obscure university and gradually came to this:
http://archive.li/VfdIs

How can such a doctor write a book about the Greek...I will never forget his name as it took me up to one thirty in the morning to find it all and I see now that it is indicated in the amazon site too... Twisted Evil
And it is treated as a standard work on internet edited by earnest sites as amazon and noble... Twisted Evil
Can one trust the internet?

Kind regards from Paul.
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