Sadly with all the brexit malarky, it's not so much Britannia rules the waves, but waives the rules. 

Very witty, MM - worthy of nord, that riposte!

Temperance wrote:

Very witty, MM - worthy of nord, that riposte!

Or even of Nicanor Costa Mendez in the aftermath of the sinking of ARA General Belgrano.

I take it you refer to Admiral Sir Terence Lewin? Not that I know anything about naval history, ancient or modern.

I suppose Last Night at the Proms is now non-PC, so I had better shut up before I offend anyone else with my comments.

But I still like HMS Glowworm, so thanks to MM for that cheery little note on this dismal, rainy day.

When the Belgrano was sunk, outside the declared Total Exclusion Zone, the Argentine Foreign minister, Nicanor Costa Mendez, made the "waives the rules" comment. See http://www.thefullwiki.org/ARA_General_Belgrano

Actually, one of the "Insect" class was also called "HMS Glowworm", I think she was involved in the removal of Charles IV of Hungary, as the ex-Emperor styled himself when he tried to regain the Hungarian throne

btw - my error. "dry Ginger" was Le Fanu, not Lewin. He was 1st Sea Lord when the daily tot was abolished, and had red hair.

This is a pic of HMS Glowworm's sister ship HMS Cockchafer. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/HMS_Cockchafer_WWII_IWM_FL_022629.jpg These were listed as "Large China Gunboats" but were intended for service on the Danube (which they did sail on after the Armistice). The "Fly" class Small China Gunboats (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-class_gunboat ) were intended for the Tigris and Euphrates. Doubt we will ever see "HMS Greenfly" again, despite the RN habit of re-using ship names.

Re the British flouting of international law - "waives the rules" - didn't the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo, state that the sinking of his vessel "...was not a war crime. It was an act of war, lamentably legal."

That said, I am sure we all agree with his use of "lamentably" to qualify "legal".

This Guardian article may be of interest:


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/may/25/uk.world


PS I like the name HMS Greenfly too - but HMS Glowworm remains my favourite.

Yes, Invincible, Intrepid, Indefatigable ... Repulse, Renown, Reliant, ... Valient, Vanguard, Victorious etc, as ships names do project a certain aura. I'm not sure that HMS Duncan, currently deployed in the Persian Gulf (although named after Admiral Adam Duncan, hero of the 1798 Battle of Camperdown) has quite the same imposing ring to it.

HMS Rodney is worse (named after Admiral Lord Rodney) - but at least we don't have an HMS Del Boy. I always remember Del calling Uncle Albert "England's greatest sailor since Nelson lost the Armada."


We all seemed to laugh more in those days, even at the daftest things...

For non-threatening warship names, the Royal Navy's Flower Class of corvettes were, as their class name suggests, mostly named after common flowers. Accordingly there was HMS Bluebell, HMS Buttercup, HMS Candytuft etc, through to HMS Veronica, HMS Violet and HMS Wallflower. Some of them were transferred to the US Navy, who named them after human traits/emotions, and so as well as USS Courage, USS Fury, USS Restless, USS Tact and USS Prudent, there was also a USS Saucy, a USS Pert and a USS Vim. I bet their crewmen got some ribbing from the crews of other ships when they had 'Saucy' or 'Pert' clearly maked on their hatband.

Does anybody remember the fictional HMS Troutbridge in The Navy Lark radio programme?  It would probably seem very hammy nowadays but I found it funny back in the day.

Yes indeed. The cast formed quite a relationship with the real HMS Troubridge, and tried, in vain, to save her bell when she was scrapped. Still to be heard quite regularly on 4Extra.

The flowers (and the WWI version, the "Herbaceous Border" sloops) weren't the oddest names. The "24 Class" named after racehorses featured "Merry Hampton" and "Rocksand" whilst the "Dance" class minesweepers included "Fandango" and "Roger de Coverley".
btw - In wartime, RN cap tallies were anonymised, bearing only "HMS" or "HMS/M" with no ship name, so the story that the reason "Pansy" was renamed "Heartsease" was because of crew sensitivity over the cap tally is suspect to say the least.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Troubridge_(R00)

Thanks for that info GG ... yes indeed, HMS Quadrille, HMS Gavotte and HMS Minuet are surely the way naval warfare should go if we want a more peaceful world (although I'm not so sure about HMS Morris Dance - despite her competent service in the Baltic during WW1).

“Try everything once, except folk dancing and incest.” I've seen this quote (attributed to Sir Thomas Beecham) with "Morris" substituted for "Folk". In this case I think justifiably. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzEIB-lxR-E Far too energetic for me.

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the undervalued inventor thread or under the "history of mystery" one.  I apologise if this event has been covered before by a previous poster.  The last few days with having been debilitated by a cold I've been taking things easy and have been surfing the internet rather than devoting myself to lovely (ho, ho) jobs such as scrubbing the floor and ironing etc, etc.  I came across a channel called "ObsoleteOddity" on YouTube where the person behind the channel seems to cover unusual subjects.  I can't find the relevant video now but there was one about the disappearance from a train in France in the 19th century of an inventor Louis Le Prince.  I found an article on the subject which I'll link.  Of course there were conspiracy theories even then - Thomas Edison who was involved in similar research must have done it (or had someone do it).  I'd leave that just where it was in the realms of speculation.  Nordmann was explaining to me how spurious myths sometimes gain traction on another thread.  [url=The Disappearance of Louis Le Prince - ScienceDirect]The Disappearance of Louis Le Prince - ScienceDirect[/url]  This does seem to be a genuine mystery though I'm sure it has a natural explanation though whether that natural explanation will ever come to light I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.

As said been to Stockholm. Invited by the grandchildren to go with ship to Vaxholm. Lunched in a cosy cove(?) (Dutch:inham) at a typical Swedish old house. 
But to be honest I met such cosy coves in the neighbour's Netherlands too. But cosy is cosy, wherever it is situated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaxholm
And then surprise on the return with a real steamship from 1908
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Storskär

https://www.swedentips.se/old-swedish-steamships/
And the same interior nearly as you can see on the photo of the Diana


And the engine. I am in love with engines. Rememberings of the childhood when a friend of my father took the "motor" out of our car. Put it with some four men on a "kinderwagen" (child charette?) (pushchair?) went to the kitchen behind the house and put it there again with four men on thekitchen table to work at it...
And i was so lucky to find a film of the working engine as I saw it too, while the side door from the engine room was open (I think intentionally)




The six minutes are a bit boring and certainly not that interesting as Temperance's Bee's flight of Rimsky Korsakov, but if you only watch the first minute, you will have an impression by what I was inspired

Kind regards to all from Paul.

I didn't know where to pose the following question, so I'm asking here.

In today's paper is an article by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown which talks about museums and their contents, particularly the British Museum and the V&A. She says that many exhibits were stolen, or pillaged, by colonial imperialist oppressors. As such, they should be returned. Examples given are the Elgin marbles, some Jamaican carvings found in 1792 and exported to the UK, and some Nigerian bronzes exported to the UK in the 19th century. 

The author goes on to say that the British Museum was born and bred in Empire and is coming under scrutiny today. I think she is right - museums are coming under scrutiny, but is it right for items/collections that were purchased (as I believe were the Elgin Marbles) be returned to their country of origin?

To me at least the film is not disinteresting, Paul.  I noticed that the engine was made in Liverpool back in the days when the UK really had a manufacturing base.  I suppose there is still some light industry goes on but now we are buying cars made overseas rather than making them ourselves.  I sometimes wonder how the heck the manufacturing base in the UK was allowed to be run down - I suppose maybe some of the substances used to make the machines were imported from abroad.  Then Britain hasn't always treated its inventors well - John Kaye who invented the "flying shuttle" ended up moving to France.  But I digress, the steamer (ship) looks quite posh inside - it seems your grandson and his family know how to give you a treat.  The nearest I have been to Sweden is watching some of the Arne Dahl thrillers which were on British BBC4 a few years ago.  I read an interview someone had conducted with one of the female stars, Malin Arvidsson (the dark-haired one - there are two Malin Arviddsons in Swedish show business).  She described places of interest to visit in Stockholm and it's a city that seems to be within reach of certain small islands.

I'm sure mention was made at some time on the site of another Liverpool firm "Meccano" which produced metal strips for making models of various machines.  It may still exist but I don't think it's based in Liverpool anymore and maybe the components for making the models are made of plastic now.

Hatshepsut, YA-B gets on my nerves - I know it's not her fault but you know how some people can just rub you (or in this case me) the wrong way.  It's a difficult question.  I've heard one argument that the Elgin marbles were in danger of just crumbling away if they hadn't been purchased.  Then again, I'm not sure of the dates pertaining to the Ottoman Empire but was Greece under the suzerainty of that Empire when the marbles were purchased (thus preventing the citizens of Greece from having an autonomous decision in the matter)?  I know you are asking about museum acquisitions in general and not just the Elgin marbles but that's the only one I can think about at the moment.

I don't know much about the Elgin Marbles, but I think they would have been destroyed by the Turks if not removed. 

There are other examples of artifacts being disfigured or destroyed by occupying forces; the Sphinx used as target practice, the heiroglyphs and carved faces on temples (perceived as pagan) being vandalised by Christian visitors, and in our own time the desecration of Assyrian objects by ISIS.

You might be interested in the ding-dong discussion some of us had some years ago here regarding this very topic, Hatshepsut. It had all the usual ingredients - dudgeons and horses elevated to the max, huffs, miffs and other assorted exit vehicles, and even a few contributions from some sadly missed members of the site too ...

Elgin Marble Poll and Discussion from 2014

That looks interesting. I'll have a gander at that thread later.

LadyinRetirement wrote:

To me at least the film is not disinteresting, Paul.  I noticed that the engine was made in Liverpool back in the days when the UK really had a manufacturing base.  I suppose there is still some light industry goes on but now we are buying cars made overseas rather than making them ourselves.  I sometimes wonder how the heck the manufacturing base in the UK was allowed to be run down - I suppose maybe some of the substances used to make the machines were imported from abroad.  Then Britain hasn't always treated its inventors well - John Kaye who invented the "flying shuttle" ended up moving to France.  But I digress, the steamer (ship) looks quite posh inside - it seems your grandson and his family know how to give you a treat.  The nearest I have been to Sweden is watching some of the Arne Dahl thrillers which were on British BBC4 a few years ago.  I read an interview someone had conducted with one of the female stars, Malin Arvidsson (the dark-haired one - there are two Malin Arviddsons in Swedish show business).  She described places of interest to visit in Stockholm and it's a city that seems to be within reach of certain small islands.

I'm sure mention was made at some time on the site of another Liverpool firm "Meccano" which produced metal strips for making models of various machines.  It may still exist but I don't think it's based in Liverpool anymore and maybe the components for making the models are made of plastic now.

Lady,

glad that you was interested in that stuff as I am.

"when the UK really had a manufacturing base. "
I mentioned it all to VF in a recent thread about the death of British Leyland, but I have still no respons.
I think it is not only in the UK but worldwide. I still think that "family" factories are nowadays old fashioned. If they don't adapt quickly to the new style performances they are set aside by the competition, which use the new methods. Of course among the new CEOs there are also failures, but they are rapidly corrected in a competitive market.
I entered for one year still in a family factory, which was quite innovative in starting the latest machinery nearly copied from the US and improving the machines (day and night!) till it was one of the most robust machines in their kind. And that was excellent but they failed in their old style family management. After one year they changed to a "group" (hesitating between a US and a German group). Lucky they chose an American investment group, giving us the necessary management methods (and even the old style was during the years many times in conflict with the new US style)...But in the North of Belgium, we were lucky to have investments and assembly lines from the automotive and from the US, Germany with US brands and even France. But the skilled labour became skilled along the US-German methods and weren't mismanaged by local old fashioned methods. the only exception that I know is Van Hool and even that family...and now the Flemish nationalists are boasting as if it is their achievement and in the new Flemish regional parliament they want to vote for more "Flemish" history...that one starting with Clovis, or the real Flemish history starting in the second half of the 19th century?

Arne Dahl you say...in our house the partner looked at the Sandhamn Murders and when I had the time to look to her TV set, I found it an excellent series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxCwXoIXm0U

And yes Meccano...as usual you put me for the first time in contact with something that I didn't know...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccano_Ltd
At five years I received a Meccano as St. Nicolas present and I was so happy...in that time there was still that role model...my sister recieved some dolls and a doll house...not sure if it is already changed ...
As I remember it has to have been something like this...


Kind regards from Paul

My husband had three boxes of Meccano. He got them as christmas presents when he was 8,9 and 10.

He treasured them and was really pleased with the models he made. When he got to into his 40s, and we had no children of our own, he decided to give them to his two young nephews. They were of sentimental value only, and he thought young boys would enjoy the Meccano sets as much as he did at their age.

In conversation with his brother (the nephews' father) a few years later, he was told that all the bits were now broken or missing as that sort of toy meant not a lot to the Millennium generation. Too old fashioned . 

OH nearly cried.

What a pity, Hatshepsut. According to Wikipedia Meccano is still fabricated by a Canadian firm called Spin Master.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meccano_Ltd

I know things are often changing but I hope we don't lose sight of the importance of knowing how to make things with our hands.  I still dabble a bit in sewing and crochet etc (I can knit but I'm not very fast at that skill, crochet seems to grow more quickly).  There does seem to have been something of a sewing renaissance among young (well younger than me) women though I don't dabble in the "sewing blogosphere" (blogs where people blog about sewing and show their creations) much.  Though I never wanted a spirograph myself (it seemed like the toy did all the work for you) some of my friends from younger days liked them so I hope there are still a few "old-fashioned" toys around.

I haven't seen the Sandhamm murders, Paul.  There seems to have been something of a flowering of thriller writers among the Scandinavian peoples over the last few decades.  I have to be careful what I say about Jo Nesbo (I can't do the funny Scandinavian o with the line through it).  He's not my cup of tea or ("my cuppa" as we sometimes say the slang way in England).  I read a couple of his books though I don't know if he's been translated.  However, one of the ladies in the French conversation group I go to (which is presently on hiatus for the summer) thinks he is marvellous - I think that lady already questions my taste because I expressed a displeasure with the works of Philippa Gregory (suffice to say the lady had a far more positive opinion of Mrs Gregory's books than I do).

Of course, it's always possible a Scandinavian book has lost something in translation.  There is a "lost in translation" thread lurking on the site somewhere.  I know I've never been terribly keen on the works of Hans Christian Anderson and wasn't fond of his work as a child.  I have been told that his work suffered quite considerably in translation (it was translated into English from German where the German version was already a translation from the Danish).  Apparently The Princess and the Pea in the Danish has something of parody or satire in it - which certainly didn't (for me) appear in the English version I heard as a child.  That confounded princess whose delicate skin could feel the pea through all the mattresses!  But if the story had a satirical aspect that changes things considerably.  Maybe I need to see if I can find a more modern and more accurate translation, preferably one directly from the Danish.

Just enquiring whether anyone is aware of a scam (or possible scam) about government funding.  I had a phone call this morning from somebody - telephone number withheld -(I can't remember the company name and person's name now) but he said they'd been in touch with people in my neighbourhood earlier in the year about funding for works and that the government were releasing the money for works this time next year and would I be interested.  I said I wouldn't do business with a company that withheld its telephone number.  Maybe I'm being unfair or overly cautious but it sets alarm bells ringing if someone doesn't want to be traced.

Sounds like a variation of the "Government grant scam". You were right to tell them to piss off (I assume you did it with more grace than I would).

Pity you don't remember the company name - part of the scam is that they will direct you to a fake website that looks like a proper company or government agency. There are various ways such sites can be quickly closed down - if they get back to you let me know and I can trace their URL and set the wheels in motion to have it black-listed and blocked.

We don't get many telephone scams (I can't anyway on my old Nokia phone which is virtually never turned on) but my husband has taught me to just delete anything on the computer which is not from a .co.nz site and even some of those are dicey. I just delete anything that I don't recognise or which asks for money or my email address. Sometimes people (like my children) are wary of me donating over the phone to charities but several phone me every year and I recognise their voices. 

Re The Princess and the Pea, I always had sympathy for the princess since I could feel anything like that in a bed which would stop me sleeping properly. Probably not through layers of mattresses though.

Oh Caro! What would M. make of that if he ever deigned to look in on this site..... my regards to him if he does. And I still don't know if he ever managed to tackle that invasive weed in NZ. Farmers hereabouts mutter long about black grass invasion but I have yet to see it - or rather be sure of the plant I think it is.  Regards, P. Not posting much as I tend to bruise easier these days.

Priscilla,

"Not posting much as I tend to bruise easier these days."
Priscilla, what is that now again? For a Dutch and French speaking "continental"...if I understand, what I see in it...scratching the head...
"as I tend to tread (treden) easier on (op) the toes (de tenen) these days"?


Priscilla, you have never known the American Buckskin on the BBC (he was shortly overhere as Bloodaxe)...
Anyway, Priscilla, I am glad to see you once again overhere...in whatever manner you chose to behave


Kind regards from a, still using URL's, Paul.

Priscilla,

"Not posting much as I tend to bruise easier these days."
Priscilla, what is that now again? For a Dutch and French speaking "continental"...if I understand, what I see in it...scratching the head...
"as I tend to tread (treden) easier on (op) the toes (de tenen) these days"?


Priscilla, you have never known the American Buckskin on the BBC (he was shortly overhere as Bloodaxe)...
Anyway, Priscilla, I am glad to see you once again overhere...in whatever manner you chose to behave


Kind regards from a, still using URL's, Paul.

It's good to see a variety of posters though, Priscilla.  I know I sometimes may drive you batty with my tangential way of thinking, though I don't get up in the morning thinking "Now how can I infuriate Priscilla on Res Hist".  Being serious a moment though, it's good to see liveliness on the board.  If I post something in disagreement with another poster, I TRY to do it in a polite way (I may not always succeed).  There was a discussion on the board a few (a couple?) of months ago about us expressing our views in a lively way without shooting the other party down in flames too much.  'Twould be a dull world if we were all the same as the old saying goes.

If one is easily bruised when typing comments here then the Tumbleweed bar of course provides a wide range of anti-ecchymositic data accessories.

I recommend the "Plushy-Slushy" keyboard with genuine fake-synthetic fur-lined side absorbers and absolutely shock-resistant Chivers Jelly keys (vannilla pictured below, but other flavours are available). In fact being shock-resistant is recommended for all the bar's customers, especially those inclined to suddenly and without warning cast aspersions, climb high horses, leap to the tallest dudgeons, and otherwise risk injury to themselves and others.



If you find however that the bruising is being inflicted on rather more sensitive spots, such as to one's ego, pride, or indeed any other cranial-located soft-spots, then customers have found these helmet covers in particular to be very effective indeed - deflecting most slings and almost all arrows while tastefully fitting in rather neatly with the bar's decor:



Of course the best way to avoid occasional bruising is probably to avoid using one's keyboard inappropriately - the QWERTY design is not particularly suited for casting barbs, for example, which do tend to have a habit of then coming back at one with exaggerated velocity, not only inflicting severe bruising but also which can lead to severe cases of delusional, frequently psychotic, and very debilitating injury to one's "feign". Fixing feigns (or in French, "faux"), in fact, is prohibitively expensive so we recommend that you leave them with our door staff on the way in for safe-keeping.

For all those who still might find themselves repeatedly bruised here, despite having taken all of the above precautions, don't worry. A balm is available (competitively priced and available from all our trained staff - ask in the loo).

All I can add to this is:

"Discard what is useless, absorb what is not and then add what is uniquely your own."


Dirk

Nord, has anyone here ever told you to get stuffed? In the nicest possible way, of course. There must be one.
Dirk,  if I discarded what was useless I might never post again. And that is the on line flowers of arnica remedy for bruising. What is uniquely my  own does not go down well. I once offered to knit Greek island ID a replica of the Elgin Marbles when she got frothy on this subject - it didn't help any.

I did once fight a lengthy battle over your being banned from the BBC site with a spate of e-mails to them and that did nothing - in fact the site closed not long after. But I shall ever stand my corner - even bruised. 

Regards with sugary smile, P

Priscilla wrote:

Nord, has anyone here ever told you to get stuffed? In the nicest possible way, of course. There must be one.
Dirk,  if I discarded what was useless I might never post again. And that is the on line flowers of arnica remedy for bruising. What is uniquely my  own does not go down well. I once offered to knit Greek island ID a replica of the Elgin Marbles when she got frothy on this subject - it didn't help any.

I did once fight a lengthy battle over your being banned from the BBC site with a spate of e-mails to them and that did nothing - in fact the site closed not long after. But I shall ever stand my corner - even bruised. 

Regards with sugary smile, P


Priscilla,

Never knew you fought a lengthy battle with the BBC site on my behalf and therefore although it happened a few years ago 
VERY BIG THANK YOU.


Dirk

Dirk, I fixed the formatting of your post - you'd put your reply into Priscilla's quote.

Priscilla, stuffed nords are a delicacy these days and not to be sniffed at. Last I heard they shouldn't be confused or combined with common or garden sour grapes, which post-Brexit I hear will be one commodity set to be exported in some quantity from your shores so, since you express an interest, I'll see if I can arrange a reciprocal quantity of the stuffed stuff to be transported in the opposite direction, probably over that same customs border which young Boris reckons only needs to exist in his head (ie. with no reality to it, like everything else in several heads on the grapes side of the divide at the moment).

... sed libera nos am absurdo

Yes very likely - but there is no cal,l because I am British, to mention Brexit. Boris and borders and to bring them into a post  directed to me. Some of the bruising came from a post rant you quickly removed which so very strongly voiced your opinion on these matters and much more.

Really? I'll see if I can find the rant in our deleted items cesspit out back and check for anything that might personally have offended you. Unlike in Herculaneum as discussed elsewhere our own cesspit maintenance slaves are extremely unreliable so there is actually a good chance it is still there.

You won't believe the amount of excrement kindly donated by certain non-patrons of our establishment that I'll have to wade through to find it though (who have obviously assumed the "septic isle" jibe often directed at their homeland to be an actual geographical description of which they should be proud). You can peruse them too, if you're so inclined. With enough plastic lined jiffy bags I'm sure I could send them all to you by post eventually, though of course I'd expect P&P pre-paid, P.

It's a messy business, so bring to it an open mind and a good strong pair of Marigolds. Coprolite analysis can teach one a lot however, though admittedly some more than others I have heard. Probably not an exercise to be undertaken if prone to easy injury, in fact.

Now, I'll get back to being stuffed. In the nicest possible way, of course.

Where IS Frobisher when one needs her?

Rumour has it that Frobisher opened a tattoo parlour. 
I take it that we now - you and I, nord - are posting in truce. This may well not last for long, of course. As long as you are quite sure in your mind that Temp and I are not to be called to account for whatever happens in the Brexit show and that we both have differing concepts of spirituality from you. As for any one here suggesting in any context that science is a sure proof as far as human knowledge goes in any field as with Jon Snow, we know nothing and have such a lot more to know about every damned thing...… and not as in Oklahama - we ain't gone as far as we can go...… not by half we ain't.

And if you have no idea who Jon Snow is...… well, I rest my case - and handbag.

Did someone mention my name? I never said a word.

Who cares about Brexit and the Death of God when England is staring into the abyss at Headingley?

"England capitulate with an exhausted shrug."

That Guardian headline says it all somehow.


PS Re stuff and nonsense - for pity's sake, get the Sh*t Shifters in, and have a good clear-out. Life is too short to stuff a mushroom - or a nordmann.

No truces or non-aggression pacts or agreeing to disagree etc please - we're Res Historicans. 

I assert that the August Bank Holiday weekend is a time for syder.

The Sh*t Shifters in this establishment are all French actually. A fine example in fact of the French commitment to freedom of movements.

I've been told I'm in a truce situation (a bit like being called a "European friend" by Johnson, I suppose), so I'll postpone any exploratory trip into the cesspit for the moment. However a quick glance did indeed reveal that it's long overdue a flush so if no one needs to second any of their motions I'll give the égoutiers a tinkle and arrange for them to consider paying a wee visit as their number two priority - if they're not logged out, of course.

EDIT: Just seen your post Vizzer. Can't see any truce lasting anyway - we're talking British commitment to peace agreements here ...

I'm gonna have to put my foot down here. No flushing out of the cesspits or cutting back etc - that's for September. Right now let's wallow in the choking fecundity of late summer whose lease really does hath all too short a date.

British commitments to peace agreements are well known. One wonders when the mainland Europeans will ever learn. By co-incidence this year marks the 60th anniversary of the publication of The Darling Buds of May by H E Bates an adoptive Man of Kent. I'm sure that somewhere in the county we have an apple pressing called 'Perfick Perfidy'.

Vizzer wrote:

I'm gonna have to put my foot down here.

For God's sake, don't do that! Lord knows what you might catch - or what might catch you. This is no time for masculine - or feminine - bravado.

I'm not sure why Nordmann thinks the sh*t-shifters should be exclusively French. What about London's Roger the Raker who in the fourteenth century "did die monstrously in his own excrement". As a professional cesspit cleaner (a raker) Roger should really have known better than to trust the dodgey wooden boards over the pit. Or what about the accidental cesspit inspection of Andreuccio of Perugia, who, in Boccaccio's 'Decameron' was lured into the house of a pretty girl only to be pitched into the family's cesspit when the half-cut boards gave way. (Andreuccio survived and eventually managed to come out the winner when he subsequently cheated some thieves of a large ruby ring stolen from a recently interred bishop).

Meles meles wrote:

I'm not sure why Nordmann thinks the sh*t-shifters should be exclusively French.

Our premises' landlords and much of its fabric are French, including the cesspit into which we consign our waste and which the landlord kindly arranges to clean out now and again. They're not called ForuMOTION for nothing, you know.

As a matter of - slight - interest - weren't the contents of cesspits used in tanneries in earlier days?
Or does this belong in the Herculaneum thread?

I asked the landlord once before when times were hard - he said we wouldn't even get a tanner for ours. (that's a joke in old money)