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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyThu 11 Apr 2019, 19:42

As it became a little bit calmer in the "vechtscheiding" (they don't know yet the word in my dictionary and on internet they make "scandalous divorce" of it, and also in my opinion more to the point: "hostile" divorce. I find personnally our "fighting divorce" more appropriate.

As said a little bit calmer for the moment in my humble opinion. And I promise to be as neutral as possible in the discusions that may be come up. As a subject of the Belgian Kingdom I am perhaps best placed to help the parties in their fighting divorce, as we have already a fighting divorce from the last half of the 19th century...

I said as a "subject" and I realized now for the first time that they always spoke in my youth, the Fifties, about in Dutch: "onderdaan"

And looking to a site from the Netherlands, because in Belgian Dutch it could be otherwise: they translate it by "subject" or "national". In my opinion it is more "subject", because it comes from the Latin "subjectus"
http://latin-dictionary.net/definition/35988/subjicio-subjicere-subjeci-subjectus

Again in my opinion Wink  it has more the meaning of "thrown under" "sub" under and "iacere" throw...in Dutch "onderworpene" litteral translation of: "the thrown under one".
And BTW: what is the difference between: discussing a "subject" and "being a subject of". I know you can make the same trick in French, as a lot of English is French (not such a trick in German and Dutch)...

All that said I come finally to my first question Wink

Especially for my friend MM in the South of France...

In the supposition, I say in the supposition, that the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland has to vote in May, will that then be on proportional voting as in Belgium or along the (Vizzer has it already explained two times to me and still some hesitation, one past the vote or something like that). And how will citizen MM have to vote there in the French Deep South? The former Aquitania?

BTW with all this Brexit turmoil, studying the EU rules and the EU parliament. I have the impression that there are "swing states" in that parliament as Belgium and I guess Denmark too, has proportional more votes than for instance the UK and NI...and if the UK has occasionally to vote in May it will have proportionally fewer votes than Belgium (and Belgium will not have its promised extra three votes Wink )

Kind regards from Paul.


Last edited by PaulRyckier on Fri 13 Sep 2019, 10:11; edited 2 times in total
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Green George
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyThu 11 Apr 2019, 23:15

Surely the whole EU has to vote according to D'Hondt
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 07:44

@PaulRyckier wrote:
And how will citizen MM have to vote there in the French Deep South? The former Aquitania?

I don't get a vote. I didn't get a vote in the referendum or the general election that followed. Under UK electoral law you only get a vote if you are resident in Britain or have left no more than 12 years ago (when you can have a postal vote in the electoral district where you last lived). My last registered UK address was in 2003 so I cannot participate in any UK vote. To participate in French elections I have to be a registered citizen with an identity card (possibly for European Parliament elections one just needs a residence card - droit de séjour). As a UK citizen I have never needed a residence permit and still have not got one although I'm now amassing the paperwork to get it. Hence no vote in France either. So much for the old adage; no taxation without representation.

Aquitania or Aquitaine is on the Atlantic side of SW France, from the Garonne river down to the Spanish border. I'm on the Mediterranean side, in the district of Vallespir (an historical Catalan 'Comarca', basically comprising the upper valley of the river Tech) within the départment of the Pyrénées-Orientales, part of the ancient county of Roussillon, and which was (with 4 other departments) part of the wider administrative region known as Languedoc-Roussillon. When the administrative districts of France were revised to decentralise (a bit over a decade ago) we briefly became part of what was known as 'Septimania', although I think that was always just a provisional title. Septimania was an old name which had long dropped out of regular use but which originally referring to the seven ancient cities of the western part of the Roman province of Gallia Narbonensis. Then in 2016 the divisions of France were again revised and now we are in what is officially called 'Occitanie' and which is made up of the departments in the old region of Languedoc-Roussillon and those in the region of Midi-Pyrénées (around Toulouse).
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 08:53

If the UK does end up voting for MEPs then it could be quite an interesting election with a much higher participation than last time.  The party that got the highest vote last time was UKIP but looking at the list of UK MEPs, those that were elected under the banner of UKIP have now split into 3 groups - UKIP, the Brexit Party (headed by Nigel Farage) and Independents.  

In terms of people clearly voting for Brexit then there will be UKIP and the Brexit party plus DUP (in Northern Ireland).  

In terms of clearly voting against Brexit there will be the Lib Dems, Change UK (set up by MPS who left Labour and Conservatives over Brexit), Green Party, SNP (in Scotland) Plaid Cymru (in Wales), Sein Fein in (N.Ireland).

Anybody wishing to vote either Conservative or Labour will have to make up their own minds as to what they are voting for in terms of Brexit.

Tim
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 21:11

@Green George wrote:
Surely the whole EU has to vote according to D'Hondt
GG,

"according to D'Hondt"...now I don't start as with the Lichfield cathedral Wink ...there are, I suppose, more than twenty D'Hondt's in the small municipality where I live...I know surely some 12 of them from two separate "families" (clans?)...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 21:21

Tim, thank you for the update about the coming struggle in the case of a European election. But nobody answered yet to my question about "proportional voting" or "first past the post". In my opinion it will be "proportional"...?

Kind regards from Paul.
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Green George
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 21:30

https://electoralreform.fandom.com/wiki/D%27Hondt_Method Think that's required by the EU.

It's depressing to see what our local voters made of the "Crime commissioner" elections, where they had a 2nd choice.

A distressingly high proportion voted for the same person in both cases.

Since the second vote only comes into play if your first choice is eliminated, that's scarcely sensible.
(can't see why we need a crime commissioner, myself. The criminals seem to be active enough without some party functionary commissioning them to commit more crimes)
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 21:34

MM,

thank you for your rather sad explanation of your particular case (although I guess it will be the case of everybody in your circumstances?) and yes I had already yesterday my doubts about Aquitania as I had still a map in my head about the Roman empire and Gallia Narbonensis and indeed Aquitania. And also the book that I read during my year kidney dialysis: Eleonor of Aquitaine. If I recall it well, mother from Minette's Richard III and the Plantagenets...but have to check...Lucky that I put a questionmark behind "Aquitania" in my original Saluting the flag Icon_wink .

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 12 Apr 2019, 21:54

GG, thanks for your immediate reaction and explanation. What one learns each day on this board...

And yes the key was "D'hondt method" in google
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method

And yes it had to be a Belgian, while one has them only in Belgium I guess (that written) and in the North and in the South Wink , perhaps also in the North of France, Detroit, Canada...?

Kind regards from Paul.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 13 Apr 2019, 00:15

I'm interested in MM's statement that he doesn't get a vote. New Zealanders seem to get votes all over the place. Here, residents can vote, though I don't know if there is a period of time they need to be here, but my husband has always voted and he is not a citizen. 

My son and dil are in England, and I think after three years away they lose their voting rights for NZ, but I am not sure there is much checking; I think they received voting papers for whatever we voted on last, and they have been away for more than three years now. Louis at least can vote in Britain since he has British citizenship (as well as NZ); not sure about his wife who is not a British citizen and I don't think has residency, though she might be putting in for it. They have adopted two British children but though they had to go through all sort of hoops to be allowed to, there was no mention of them being NZers and maybe wanting to bring the children back to Kiwiland. Which they are certainly intending to do sometime.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 13 Apr 2019, 08:09

The issue about who can vote is complicated. I have a friend who worked for a large British company and because of work had lived in several different European countries; never long enough to qualify for local voting rights (typically three years) but in total he had lived outside of Britain for more than the 12 year limit. So didn't get a vote in the referendum and had in fact been effectively disenfranchised in any country for many years. Similarly most European citizens who were resident in Britain, perhaps having lived there for decades, paying taxes, maybe married there and raising their children in a British school, also did not get a vote in the referendum (which could change their status and affect their rights). Meanwhile Commonwealth nationals, resident in Britain for as little as three years, did get to vote ... so nationals of Australia, New Zealand and Canada were eligible, but also those of Malta and Cyprus which are also EU states. When he was PM David Cameron had pledged to review the electoral system so that British citizens resident overseas could vote regardless of the time they had been abroad. But he never got around to it and the electoral commission said it was too complicated to implement before the referendum. And still nothing has been done.

In France, by the constitution, all citizens have to be included in national referenda and in the Presidential and National Assembly elections, and so regardless of how long you've been living outside of France, if you have a French passport or ID card, you get a vote. Indeed overseas citizens vote for and are represented in the National Assembly by their own députés (MPs); there are eleven constituencies for French residents overseas: Canada & US; South & Central America; Northern Europe; Benelux; Andorra, Monaco, Portugal & Spain; Liechtenstein & Switzerland; Central & Eastern Europe; Southern Europe, Israel & Turkey; North-West Africa; Central, Eastern and Southern Africa & much of the Middle East; and finally the really big one comprising Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Moldova, Oceania, most of Asia, Australia & New Zealand). And of course residents of French Overseas Territories, such as Reunion, Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Polynesia etc, also vote for and send representatives to the National Assembly.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 13 Apr 2019, 20:24

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Tim, thank you for the update about the coming struggle in the case of a European election. But nobody answered yet to my question about "proportional voting" or "first past the post". In my opinion it will be "proportional"...?

Kind regards from Paul.


Tim and GG,

I see now that GG already answered about that "proportional system" with the "D'Hondt system"...many excuses GG Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html


Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyMon 15 Apr 2019, 22:46

As I see taht GG is overhere.

GG,

overhere we have list votes as for instance for the Christian Democrats and we have at the same time the choice to vote also for candidates of that list. I am nearly sure it is the same for the European polls too.
As I vote mostly "for what a party stays for" and not  a particular candidate as for me that smells to populism, what do you recommend me and how can you motivate it? You knowledgeable one about the D'Hondt method and even, if I recall it well, taken part in a poll's rally? or organization?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyThu 18 Apr 2019, 22:05

Will Nigel Farage, make again noice in the EU parliament?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-election/farages-brexit-party-to-top-eu-elections-in-britain-poll-idUKKCN1RT1HM

I think Temperance was right, when she alluded that one has not to underestimate, if I recall it well, the British feelings.
The populist gut feeling from the man in the street against the threats and dangers of the outside world. Own Englander first.
But it is not only in England, also in The Netherlands you have such types and their followers..
As a Thierry Baudet...
https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-rutte-to-lose-senate-majority-after-dutch-local-elections/


We discussed this feelings a lot of times on Historum and everytime I contributed...the last one...
https://historum.com/threads/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-fact-that-a-lot-of-different-ethnic-groups-in-europe-have-their-own-state-s-right-now.177580/page-4
See also my message 23.

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 00:07

I know Brexit is important but I find myself only wanting to watch the main points of the news these days.  I haven't watched 'Question Time' for ages  because I HATE it.  When I have discussed the issue with acquaintances in real life and said I felt a certain sympathy with Mrs May because she has received a scant lack of backing I was very much a lone voice.  Some people feel she didn't consult enough with other members of Parliament.  There is another opinion doing the rounds that at the time of the vote many people took it for granted that the majority would vote 'Remain' and couldn't be bothered to take the time to vote.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 05:00

I sympathise with Mrs May too, because I don't see how anyone could have got through this quagmire, where no-one seems prepared to compromise at all. And she never seems to lose her cool. 
I felt the same about watching television or listening to the radio after the attacks on the Christchurch mosques. It sounds very callous and cold-hearted, but it was the only thing on our news and serious national radio and television for several days afterwards. And on the first day every other programme was suspended. 
In NZ we don't seem to have the same appetite for hashing over an issue as the British do: I noticed when we were living in Britain for 10 months in 2004 (and often later) how events or controversies could dominate the papers for months on end.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 08:54

The irony though is that, apart from Brexit, the UK's government has basically run out of business as there is no new legislation proposed and so Parliament has basically run out of things to be discussed ... other than Brexit. But Brexit, for all the need to get it resolved one way of another and as soon as possible, is now stalled with Parliament in Easter recess and looking forward to the summer hols'. That is not to say that there are not matters that urgently need addressing, but I rather gather that Brexit has so occupied government, that everything else has been pushed aside. May had been widely expected to schedule a Queen’s speech setting out the government’s new legislative agenda within a few weeks because she had announced a two-year parliamentary session in mid-June 2017. But she could ignore demands for a programme of new laws and so put off the Queen’s speech until later this year while parliament had not yet approved a Brexit withdrawal deal. Either way we're going to be hearing about Brexit for many years yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 20:18

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I know Brexit is important but I find myself only wanting to watch the main points of the news these days.  I haven't watched 'Question Time' for ages  because I HATE it.  When I have discussed the issue with acquaintances in real life and said I felt a certain sympathy with Mrs May because she has received a scant lack of backing I was very much a lone voice.  Some people feel she didn't consult enough with other members of Parliament.  There is another opinion doing the rounds that at the time of the vote many people took it for granted that the majority would vote 'Remain' and couldn't be bothered to take the time to vote.


Lady and Caro,

yes for me Mrs May is my favourite, while she stays cool in the middle of the turmoil. Everybody cries about her deal, but when left to find a solution "they" make a chaos. And Caro, they winge so long about it I suppose because it is one of the most important issues of the post war period both economical and political. At least in my humble opinion...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 20:21

And again the same phenomenon as mentioned
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 19 Apr 2019, 20:41

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Will Nigel Farage, make again noice in the EU parliament?
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-election/farages-brexit-party-to-top-eu-elections-in-britain-poll-idUKKCN1RT1HM

I think Temperance was right, when she alluded that one has not to underestimate, if I recall it well, the British feelings.
The populist gut feeling from the man in the street against the threats and dangers of the outside world. Own Englander first.
But it is not only in England, also in The Netherlands you have such types and their followers..
As a Thierry Baudet...
https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-rutte-to-lose-senate-majority-after-dutch-local-elections/


We discussed this feelings a lot of times on Historum and everytime I contributed...the last one...
https://historum.com/threads/what-are-your-thoughts-on-the-fact-that-a-lot-of-different-ethnic-groups-in-europe-have-their-own-state-s-right-now.177580/page-4
See also my message 23.


Addendum to this message

Vizzer, LiR and MM,

I would understand if Vizzer wouldn't answer to my message from yesterday, where I mentioned LT.Colonel Derek Wilford; Bloody Sunday and the Amritsar Massacre yesterday. And I understand more and more nordmann, who warned about the old wounds still raw and making the Brexit even more complex. It earned him a cyberattack on this Norwegian forum...
And my message was nearly sent or there happened this:
I first looked on my daily BBC world, but I found nothing...as I understand it is only world news for the foreign TV stations...I had to look at the "local" news to find it back:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47990464


yes nordmann was right when he foresaw these troubles and it will not make the Brexit easier in my humble opinion.

Kind regards to the three of you.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 23 Apr 2019, 07:52

The former Tory minister Ann Widecombe recently commented that in

Mrs May we have the worst prime minister since Eden

Jeremy Corbyn we have the worst leader of the Labour party ever

And the worst parliament since Oliver Cromwell - not sure I agree with that.

Mrs May's record is hardly wonderful

She became leader largely through default after all the other candidates either stabbed each other or themselves in the back.

She called an election with a commanding lead in the polls against a very unpopular leader of the opposition and managed to lose seats.

She has had more ministers resign in her short tenure than either Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair had during their somewhat longer period as leader.

Her government suffered the largest ever defeat in the House of Commons with regards to a major piece of legislation - Brexit - and then proceeded and failed twice more to get it through parliament.

She declared more than 100 times in Parliament that the UK would leave the EU on 29th March 2019 and failed to do so.

Tim
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 23 Apr 2019, 13:32

You make some valid points Tim but I'm really flexing my brain (and failing) to come up with any charismatic and honourable politicians at this conjuncture in time (on the Front Benches anyhow).  I don't want to make a blanket condemnation of all politicians.  Dennis Skinner is a colourful character of course but he's the wrong party and the wrong age-group to lead the country (not that I think he would want to).
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 23 Apr 2019, 13:32

Deleted - double post.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 23 Apr 2019, 14:32

L in R, if I could have chosen someone to have been a Tory PM in the past then it would have been Kenneth Clarke who is, in my opinion, the only chancellor of the exchequer since Roy Jenkins to have left with a creditable record.

regards

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyThu 09 May 2019, 23:26

GG and MM,

about the European elections...
As I understood it from you GG, it is proportional representation along the D'Hondt system...
And MM can you now vote for the EU elections?
And a question to you both and the others: is this now a new referendum?
I couldn't resist Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

PS: I hope I disturbed not too many people, we can also talk about Archie.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 10 May 2019, 13:51

I was looking for some YouTube clips about the old-time (well it did extend into my childhood) radio show "Educating Archie" (Archie was a ventriloquist's dummy and the puppeteer was Peter Brough).  The clips were either quite long (28 minutes) or just still photographs.  From a modern perspective a ventriloquist show on the radio may seem bizarre but in the 1950s not everyone had a TV set.  Archie is an unusual name for anyone in the British royal family but is that necessarily a bad idea?  One thing I have noticed from some online comments (not on this website) is that racism is still alive.  I've read some really nutty things - that Meghan is really a chap dressing up as a woman, that she wore a false baby prosthetic and used a surrogate (I don't think she did but would that have been so very bad if she did use a surrogate?).

As for Brexit, I feel quite depressed.  I really don't want violence to start again on the Eire/Northern Ireland border and before  Easter I felt really dejected when there was a young lady reporter caught and killed in the crossfire. Maybe, our (i.e. belonging to use in the UK) system of government does need a thorough overhaul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 10 May 2019, 21:25

There was a US radio vent show too. Edgar Bergen, and his dummy, Charlie McCarthy.

I'm currentlty 1/3rd the way through 3 elections, District, (where I became one of the first 3 Green Party councillors in my district, then the Euros, then a delayed District election for one ward, where a candidate died during the campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 10 May 2019, 21:28

@Tim of Aclea wrote:
L in R, if I could have chosen someone to have been a Tory PM in the past then it would have been Kenneth Clarke who is, in my opinion, the only chancellor of the exchequer since Roy Jenkins to have left with a creditable record.

regards

Tim
RAB Butler is frequently described as "The best PM we never had" I'd take him by a narrow margin over Clarke as I think he could heal the shattered state of the nation's politics better.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 18 May 2019, 12:36

Well, there is still some little time till the European Parliamentary Elections in the UK, but so far the only party from which any literature has come through my letter box is the "Brexit" party.  I still think that the "Leave" result in the UK Brexit vote came about because a lot of people didn't bother to vote - whether they took it for granted "Remain" would be successful or whether they were just lazy I don't know.  I know Brexit has not been cancelled, just postponed, but if the parties themselves can't be bothered to campaign, how do they expect to rally an already (in some part) apathetic voting public.

UK politics is in a mess at present (apologies to those who mentioned that upthread, I haven't been through the whole thread to marry comments with commenters).  I'm saddened by the state of politics at present - I can't think of any particularly brilliant MPs who could lead us (in theUK; I realise there are non-UK people who visit the board and I mean no offence) out of the existing quagmire.

I don't know what it says about the state of the world we live in but an online petition to have season 8 of Game of Thrones (the TV show finishes for good in a couple of days, though there are still books promised to appear in the series on which the TV show is based) remade has reached 1,000,000 million signatures.  Admittedly that's not limited to the UK - and 1,000,000 isn't that much I suppose when one thinks of the population of the world, but I found something puzzling about the fact that people would get roused by what happens in a fantasy (somewhat loosely based on history) show perhaps more than about what happens in real life.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 18 May 2019, 22:54

Lady,

I am not sure if the UK will be such an exception in the pantheon of the European community in the elections next week. Everywhere the far right nationalistic parties are growing, a bit as I described in my thread: Are we back to the Thirties?
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1294-are-we-back-to-the-thirties


Take now the example of Belgium, which has of course the particularity of three regions, each with a regional parliament: The Flemish one, the Walloon one and the Brussels one. And for the federal parliament: roughly 6/10 for the Flemings, 3/10 for the Walloons and 1/10 for Brussels.
But in all the polls they only refer to the regional predictions and nobody speaks about the prognoses for the federal parliament. They say in Flanders the far right increases, in Wallonia the Socialists are increasing again as still the biggest party of Wallonia. Though that don't interest me as I am a federalist. And I am perhaps the only person in Belgium Wink, who has done the painstaking exercise of putting together the three.
But everybody seems to forget that the mighty Socialist party in Wallonia in the federal parliament counts only for 3 tenths and the Flemish part of the Socialist family much lesser in the Flemish parliament, counts nevertheless for 6 tenths in the Belgian Socialist family. The same for the Liberal, Centre (Christian/Humanist) Democrat family or the Green one.
Today I read for the first time about possibilities in indeed the Federal parliament, and according to the latest poll if they want to avoid the extremes as the Far right and the Greens; it is not possible to govern with a tripartite the Liberals, the Socialists and the Christian/Humanist democrats. They will need or the mild Nationalist Flemish party to govern or what is less problable without those Mild Flemish nationlists and with the Greens...
Only to say that it is not THAT different from the UK...as we have our Flemish community 6/10 against 4/10 Francophone community it is perhaps not the same problem as in the UK with England, Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? Although for the far right we seem to be a bit the same in procent, although that far right is more represented in the North of Belgium. I will seek for the right polls, but that has to be a bit the same as the far right from Marine Le Pen in France and as in the Netherlands, I have no data for the moment of Germany.

And as I said the far right is mostly in that 6/10 northern region...surprisingly as it is now the far right thinking which is preponderant for the moment, a populist promising and allochtonephobe rethoric and forgotten "De Vlaamse Republiek"as I read some years ago on slogans, it could even be now a rightwing Belgian Republic Wink  as I saw the photos from the support of Marine Le Pen in Brussels. The same slogan
of "Eigen Volk Eerst" (own folk first, own Englander first) "Nos Gens d'Abord"
http://www.morsum-magnificat.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7732
Saluting the flag Vlaams_Belang_Marine_Le_Pen_Web.

I didn't find that much about the "about us", but I used this link for the photo, while it was in the national newspapers too, but I found nothing immediately...
And what wil the guy of "Schild en Vrienden" (that I mentioned in my Thirties thread) now say about his 1302, the so-called Flemish victory on those damned Frenchmen Wink 

NO all those far right want only one thing, as in the Thirties, conquer the power with all kind of populist tricks and once they have the power instore an authoritarian state, where the stupid common man, who voted for them is worser off than in the time when they could still say anything and use their democratic right...
But I don't think we are in Europe already that far and it is the task of that common man to avoid that...

I read today also a comment in the paper from a sociologist about unsure times, rapidly changing and were the common man has no grip on, and then charismatic leaders...it is as read I my "Are we back to the Thirties?" thread...

And as said it is the moment to resist...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 18 May 2019, 22:57

Addendum.

I see now that the photo of Marine is gone

Saluting the flag Vlaams_Belang_Marine_Le_Pen_Web.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySun 19 May 2019, 07:20

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Lady,

I am not sure if the UK will be such an exception in the pantheon of the European community in the elections next week. Everywhere the far right nationalistic parties are growing, a bit as I described in my thread: Are we back to the Thirties?
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1294-are-we-back-to-the-thirties


Take now the example of Belgium, which has of course the particularity of three regions, each with a regional parliament: The Flemish one, the Walloon one and the Brussels one. And for the federal parliament: roughly 6/10 for the Flemings, 3/10 for the Walloons and 1/10 for Brussels.
But in all the polls they only refer to the regional predictions and nobody speaks about the prognoses for the federal parliament. They say in Flanders the far right increases, in Wallonia the Socialists are increasing again as still the biggest party of Wallonia. Though that don't interest me as I am a federalist. And I am perhaps the only person in Belgium Wink, who has done the painstaking exercise of putting together the three.
...
Only to say that it is not THAT different from the UK...as we have our Flemish community 6/10 against 4/10 Francophone community it is perhaps not the same problem as in the UK with England, Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? Although for the far right we seem to be a bit the same in procent, although that far right is more represented in the North of Belgium. I will seek for the right polls, but that has to be a bit the same as the far right from Marine Le Pen in France and as in the Netherlands, I have no data for the moment of Germany.

And as I said the far right is mostly in that 6/10 northern region...surprisingly as it is now the far right thinking which is preponderant for the moment, a populist promising and allochtonephobe rethoric and forgotten "De Vlaamse Republiek"as I read some years ago on slogans, it could even be now a rightwing Belgian Republic Wink  as I saw the photos from the support of Marine Le Pen in Brussels. The same slogan of "Eigen Volk Eerst" (own folk first, own Englander first) "Nos Gens d'Abord"
http://www.morsum-magnificat.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7732

...

NO all those far right want only one thing, as in the Thirties, conquer the power with all kind of populist tricks and once they have the power instore an authoritarian state, where the stupid common man, who voted for them is worser off than in the time when they could still say anything and use their democratic right...
But I don't think we are in Europe already that far and it is the task of that common man to avoid that...

I read today also a comment in the paper from a sociologist about unsure times, rapidly changing and were the common man has no grip on, and then charismatic leaders...it is as read I my "Are we back to the Thirties?" thread...

And as said it is the moment to resist...

Kind regards from Paul.

Thank you for this interesting breakdown on politics in Belgium, Paul.

I tried looking at the Morsum Magnificat document you refer to above, among many words barely recognizble by me I saw this one, 'verachten' which if comparable to German - and Danish - could be translated as 'despicable'.
If I understood the context of the article correct, it was mostly an attack on Marine le Pen for intervening in internal Belgian affairs, here in the Brussels region on behalf of the French-speakers?

The News in the German radio station running behind me just mentioned, that following the present Austrian governmental crisis a new election is being called there. It is to be seen whether the present Right-Far Right coalition will retain the Government of that federal state.

Otherwise it is somewhat interesting to listen to that station, between the music - fairly old-fashioned to suit my tastes - there are varying stories on the coming EU elections and popular demonstrations against Right-wingers and racial, err, 'apartheid'.
One hesitates to use the word 'propaganda' when referring to a public-funded radio, but imho the smell is there.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySun 19 May 2019, 15:26

GG

I can see why you might have chosen Rab Butler but I am not convinced.  

In 1963 he was handed, as Enoch Powell put it, a loaded gun, but refused to use it.  If he had refused to serve under Hume than a quite a few other cabinet ministers would have followed him and Hume would have been unable to form a workable cabinet, but Butler instead said that he would serve under Hume and so Hume became PM.  I also think that if Butler had become PM that Wilson would have had him for toast, as he was to have Hume.

Both Butler and Hume were appeasers before WW2.

I was twelve at the time that Hume became PM and so have some memory of the events.  It was the last time that a leader of the Tory party was decided upon without a vote and, reading up about it, reminded me of the 2016 leadership with the other 3 contenders to Hume - Butler, Hailsham and Maulding all shooting themselves at the party conference just as in 2016 the other contenders to May either stabbed each other or stabbed themselves.  

regards

Tim
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyWed 22 May 2019, 22:33

Nielsen,

"I tried looking at the Morsum Magnificat document you refer to above, among many words barely recognizble by me I saw this one, 'verachten' which if comparable to German - and Danish - could be translated as 'despicable'.
If I understood the context of the article correct, it was mostly an attack on Marine le Pen for intervening in internal Belgian affairs, here in the Brussels region on behalf of the French-speakers?"

"verachten" is a verb and is indeed: "despice"

No not at all, Marine was welcome to try to win the French language Belgians to support the Vlaams blok because they stay both for the same "ideals" (nobody speaks about Flemish, but now about "Eigen Volk eerst"/Nos Gens d'abord"
But there was mentioned that Philip DeWinter wasn't there, he was in Antwerp...because he is the "old guard" a bit in conflict with the "new guard" (oude garde versus nieuwe garde)...

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyThu 23 May 2019, 09:09

The last few days I haven't done as much "work" either paid for or round the house/garden as I wanted to.  My sleep patterns have been a bit disturbed.  I know it was very silly, but I had a look at a gossip website I'd heard something about on a podcast (I didn't learn anything of great momentum), but there was something about somebody who was looking for a new job being worried about some fancy dress pictures from his/her past coming to light and scuppering his/her chances.  Someone had had a guess at BoJo.  I don't know if the guess was right or wrong, and I don't really believe that somebody should necessarily be condemned for something silly he or she did in his/her past.  Like if a lady had a baby at a young age and had it adopted (though nowadays a lady might keep a baby in those circumstances) - I don't think she should be condemned for it all her life.  I do want a sensible prime minister though.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 24 May 2019, 13:28

Robots are getting more realistic. This one has been programmed to cry:


Saluting the flag Mayout
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Green George
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 24 May 2019, 21:54

Oh be fair. They've made plastic dolls that can do that, and wet their nappies as well, for years.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyFri 24 May 2019, 23:26

Triceratops and GG,

I find that Theresa May did the job that she had to do. It isn't her fault that the Western World is sweeping to the right. Where will that end? Although I suppose we haven't yet reached the  point of no return, but with all that right wing autoritarian, we will at the end not be that far from the Russians, the Chinese and see now in India, again the Hindou party, are the Ghandi's finished? a clash with the 200 million Muslims?...
And Trump will meet May.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7066489/Donald-Trumps-state-visit-Britain-coincide-Theresa-Mays-days-Prime-Minister.html
From the article:
"US President Donald Trump said he felt sorry for British Prime Minister Theresa May, who has resigned today after three years of turmoil surrounding Brexit.
'I feel badly for Theresa. I like her very much. She is a good woman,' Trump told reporters on the White House lawn as he prepared to set off on a trip to Japan.
'She's a good woman. She worked very hard. She's very strong,' Trump said."


Would Trump with his "krokodilletranen" (crocodile tears) not better meet with his "evenknie" (equal? equal minded?) Nigel Farage? The ideas of the Republican Party in Europe? His man in Europe? Or is Nigel as Marine Le Pen the "divide et impera" from the Russians too?

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySat 25 May 2019, 10:25

I still prefer Mrs May to Bo-Jo.  May I ask where people feel Mrs May failed?  Do they think she was to autocratic and did not involve the rank and file of Parliament enough?  Trying to develop a satisfactory leaving agreement with the rest of the EU was always going to be a poisoned chalice (in my opinion anyway).  I certainly don't want things to go to the dark side in Northern Ireland.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptySun 26 May 2019, 06:24

Dear LadyinRetirement,
I found this hilarious video on the net that I think brings you the reasons for Theresa May's failure on this complex issue that is obscure to me.


I hope it won't shock you, but I find this video very relevant, at least for what I know about Brexit.
As far as I know, the current situation is so confusing that no one knows what to do anymore.
That being said, I confess to you that I do not understand anything about the motivations of Brexit.
I'll leave you to it, I have to go vote before a family meeting about 200 km away.
Kind regards,
Abelard
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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyMon 27 May 2019, 18:03

Dear all,
As a small reminder about the yesterday European election
Here is a graph showing us the actual power relations in the European Parliament in 2019 with a comparison on the previous parliament of 2014 (attenuated colors)
Saluting the flag B9597b6e-3cf1-4483-a39e-78edbbd60f3b
This is a thorough estimate that may still have some minor corrections.
The pro-European parties have a large majority (S&D+EFA+ALDE&R+EPP).
Note that the populist parties will soon lose the votes of the Brexit party because of the...Brexit (ECR+EFDD+ENF-Brexit Party).
The main lessons I have learned are the strengthening of the centrists, greens and temporary reinforcement of the right wings eurosceptics which will be further reduced by the departure of the Brexit party (33seats?).
Average decline in the number of seats from the "far left", left and right.
Kind regards,
Abelard
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyMon 27 May 2019, 22:16

Abelard,

thank you for your comments and the picture about the European elections of 1919.
I wanted to copy the picture from the BBC but see now that it is nearly the same.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48417191
from the link:
The right-wing and populist groups did best in Italy, France and the UK.
The odd thing is that the party of Orban as far right as the others and perhaps even more than the "Vlaams Belang" in Belgium. BTW it is not yet excluded from the European Christian Democrats but it is on the border...?
And the turnout of the UK is not that much smaller than that of the Netherlands.
But the turn out is not a "barometer" (guideline?) for a more realistic vote, as it is compelling in Belgium, the results are in my opinion not other than for instance the motivated ones of the UK, who chose to do the effort to go to the ballotbox...

"The pro-European parties have a large majority (S&D+EFA+ALDE&R+EPP).
Note that the populist parties will soon lose the votes of the Brexit party because of the...Brexit (ECR+EFDD+ENF-Brexit Party).
The main lessons I have learned are the strengthening of the centrists, greens and temporary reinforcement of the right wings eurosceptics which will be further reduced by the departure of the Brexit party (33seats?).
Average decline in the number of seats from the "far left", left and right."

The Liberals, Christian-Democrats and Socialists have indeed a large majority, but they are in decline, thus no strengthening of the centrists. In Belgium the Tripartite don't reach even the half of the seats in the Chamber? (Lower House), but I will later return on Belgium, while it there is a tragedy. I later return on the subject.

And perhaps for the UK it will be a drama too. As I think to remember, Temperance said in a former Brexit thread, don't underestimate the inner not expressed too overtly feeling of the average (wo(man) in the street, as happened yesterday in the election for the Flemish Region, the Federal Belgian parliament and the European elections.

I think Meles meles will feel with me, as he had a partner from Belgium, who was as I Belgian feeling, a bit as a Charles Michel from the Francophone Liberals. It is of course only a local Belgian catastrophy in the broader European Union and perhaps as local as in Hungary, or Italy...or the UK...but perhaps there it will be more mentioned because it are bigger countries...at the end a split between the far right Flemish region and the left wing Walloon region. Only if they stick together they end a bit in the European average or in the UK one

There are still possibilities...as the more moderate Flemish nationalistic party will perhaps govern with a tripartite without Francophone Socialist Walloons and with that they have still a majority...as the Greens are seen, at least in Belgium as more left than the Socialists...of course the Communists and far right Flemish are not welcome in a coalition...

But at the end I suppose that the Far right, will gain again in a next poll as they float on the wave of the so-called Flemish indentity (although they are not afraid of a marriage with the French Marine Le Pen, because the only thing that counts is to have local power in there respectively country, and that means the Flemish region in the case of the "Vlaams Belang" and yes the guy that I mentioned in my "Are we back to the Thirties" is there too...and secondly and perhaps meanly for the moment on the wave of the anti-migrants and anti-allochtones...

I will gave the data in addendum for fear of losing my message overhere.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyMon 27 May 2019, 23:49

Addendum to the previous message

I tried but could nowhere download a picture of a map about the federal results of the Belgian elections of 2019
Perhaps because they are interactif?
Here on wiki you have the results but no map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Belgian_federal_election

Here if you click on the link you have a map, and you see that Wallonia is clearly red and the Flemish region clearly yellow, orange, and greenish yellow of the "Vlaams Belang" even the constituency of Bruges, perhaps because of the trouble at Zeebruges of the transmigrants to England?
BTW: The Communists (Mao-Communists?) gain considerable both in the Flemish and Walloon region
https://nieuws.vtm.be/politiek/ontdek-hier-de-uitslagen-van-de-federale-verkiezingen

NVA: orange yellow: moderate Flemish nationalists
PS: red: Walloon Socialists
SPA: red: Flemish Socialists
Open VLD: blue: Flemish Liberals
MR: blue:Walloon Liberals
CDenV: orange: Flemish Christian Democrats
CDH: orange: Walloon Humanist Democrats
Groen: Flemish greens
Ecolo: Walloon greens
Vlaams Belang: Greenish yellow: Flemish Far Right

If someone is still interested I will add reasons why it all happened...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 05:45

Dear Paul,
Thank you for posting sources that allow me to discover the "impenetrable and fascinating jungle" of the Belgian political landscape.
I admit it's a little confusing for me, but I find it very interesting.
I promise you I'll buy a bush hat and a machete to see a little more clearly in there.

As an aside from the Brexit topic.
As far as I am concerned, I try to be as neutral as possible in these posts on the 2019 European elections, and to comment on the facts relating to the results from a historical perspective, even if I've already posted a comedy video on the Brexit that illustrates the big mess in the british political establishment related to May's failure.

I very much appreciate your comment on the political party of Orban (Fidesz).
Can we really consider it as an extreme right-wing party and therefore as an anomaly if it is placed in the EPP group?
After all, as far as I know, it is a party that claims a different political identity from that shaped by the West because it comes from Eastern Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#Views_and_public_image
kind regards,
Abelard
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 20:42

The Brexit party won where I live.  It didn't get my vote - mind you, this sort of vote is a protest vote really.  In a general election people would probably go back to voting Conservative if they didn't want Labour to get in or Labour if they didn't want Conservative to get in.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 21:48

I start now for the fourth time. Twisted Evil Each time when I click in my message on a link and return, my message is gone and again my start page or even a blanc page...tomorrow they come to look for my computer...I put now first the links before to start with my message...

Dear Abelard,

thank you very much for the immediate reply and the comments about Orban.
About my comments about Orban and the EPP
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-4762292
And from your wiki at the end they nevertheless say: under "views and public image"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#Views_and_public_image

"Orbán's blend of soft Euroscepticism, populism,[73][74][75] and national conservatism has seen him compared to politicians and political parties as diverse as Jarosław Kaczyński's Law and Justice, Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia, Marine Le Pen's Front National, Donald Trump,[76] Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Vladimir Putin.[77]

I first read more about Orban outside the normal daily stuff in the papers, when I did research in my thread "Are we back to the Thirties" for a guy, who is now one of the tenors of the far right Flemish party, which won that much on Sunday in the national elelctions.
A meeting with Orban as propaganda film. See also the youtube about the Gravensteen of Ghent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv2wSaqyyx8
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1294-are-we-back-to-the-thirtiesµ
From the 25th second on...
Orban speaking: Flanders that is the part that is working...and further from the Flemish one: my paraphrasing...family and women have to have children again...where have I heard that...

Abelard for fear of losing my message a fifth time, I will further comment what I read today, how it came that far on Sunday and about my own experiences...and perhaps it can be transposed to other European countries including the UK.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 22:06

@PaulRyckier wrote:
the European elections of 1919

I know it’s a typo Paul but 1919 was indeed 'the year of elections' across the world and particularly in Europe. Of the countries currently members of the EU no fewer than 13 held general or constituent assembly elections in 1919. Germany, Poland and Austria voted at the beginning of the year in the Winter, Finland and Estonia in the Spring, Portugal, Spain and Bulgaria in the Summer and finally Luxembourg, Rumania, Belgium, Italy and France in the Autumn – in fact those last 3 all went to the polls on the same day (16 November).

The previous year (1918) had seen Denmark, the Netherlands and Great Britain & Ireland hold general elections while Sweden had voted the year before that in 1917. And the following year (1920) would see Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Czechoslovakia, Greece and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats & Slovenes all hold their own elections.

It was this flowering in democracy - in neutral countries while the First World War was ongoing, in the UK immediately after the Armistice, across Europe in 1919 the year of the Peace of Versailles and even by some countries while still fighting for independence from Soviet Russia in 1920 - which is said to have inspired Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi to publish his book Pan-Europa in 1923 prompting the subsequent founding of the Paneuropean Union.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 23:22

Dear Abelard,

I read today (before it was a liberal daily, I don't know how it is now. I find it now a bit a tabloid) about the way the far right obtained that many votes. First of all from the poll among the VB voters, first the trouble with the immigration and a kind of test, which one could do to see for oneself what political affiliation one really belonged to. To make the silent mass aware of what they really wanted to vote for. So they voted for what they had discovered as their profile. (I haven't seen the questions, but my critique is already: it is the way the questions are posed...)
And the party had more than someone others tried to reach the youngsters via internet, and the usual nowadays mass media, as Facebook and the other stuff...what is it all: instagram and all that... they mentioned a lot of money to reach that goal...perhaps also more than the others...yes in the time the far right was also more modern than the others...

Dear Abelard I too try to stay neutral as you, but nevertheless I can't deny that my affilation is humanist democrat, perhaps more the Walloon CDH, perhaps that a bit more left leaning than their Flemish sister party: the Christian Democrats. And from the point of view of Belgium I regret it that the people of the nowadays Belgium lived together from the Burgundian times for some nearly 500 years and will now perhaps split to a Flemish entity or a Flemish confederalism with the Francophones...a Flemish entity that only emerged some 150 years ago with the Flemish movement against the Francophone tutelle in Belgium...

But apart of all this media stuff, there are real problems about the "new" immigration and the "old" in Belgium mostly the Maghreb and Turkey, who do it "their" way. And not integrated, differ too much from the "customs" overhere. And many times try to impose their customs overhere.
In the constituency of Bruges, the Vlaams Belang became the biggest party, I am nearly sure because of all the trouble with the transmigrants to Britain in Zeebruges (the same as in Calais). One of my immediate outer circle said some week ago. they aren't allowed to go to Britain, thus they have to do an application for Belgium or to go back to their "land"...
Today: a lady, who was independent has 450 Euro as widow "pension" and has to do two jobs to earn some money, the lowest appartment of  hire in Bruges 450 euro...but she don't lament about the "immigrants" having preference for hire...supported by the government...
I made already this mentioning on another thread about a woman who asked nearly at the end of her carreer in the cantine branch, how much she would have as retirement (pension). At the end, while she was divorced and living alone in Bruges, she had a hire of 700 Euro, meaning she would have to live with 350 Euro a month and when she said to the official that that couldn't work, the she official said, yes  I agree, but if you had earned more during your carreer you would have had a higher "pension" and otherwise you can always live from the Public assistance which they now want to bring to 1200 Euro or more. But then she said to me: and those migrants come here and are pampered and receive an appartment on our costs...at last that was "her" view...
I hope that the three traditional parties have learned something from this wake up call from both the far right and the far left, and I mean also on European level.

But that don't explain why to the right in the North of Belgium and to the left in the South...perhaps during the last 120 years since the North differenciated from the South, the North was always to the Right and the  South always to the Left...but as you can see on the map, it are only the two big city regions in Wallonia, which are to the Left, while the rest is Liberal and Humanist Democrat...
Perhaps you have the same differences in Germany between the "Länder" for instance between "Bayern" and "Rheinland-Westfalen"?

And to understand better what happened on Sunday in Belgium I will add a link in addendum, which I received from the Dutch born Dirk.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PaulRyckier

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 23:29

Vizzer,

crossed posts. That is indeed interesting about the elections of 1919. I learned from it, but I read somewhere already about that Pan-Europa. I will try to search more about it tomorrow. And if I recall it well, there was also a Pan-German movement...or was that in the 19th century?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 23:36

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