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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 22:55

MM,

as always I learn something new from your historical reviews. And as it is of my parents' souvenirs it is the more interesting.
"At first they had been preserved in a very primitive fashion by salting in heaps on the shore without even being gutted. But in the 14th century improved techniques were introduced by Dutch entrepreneurs: the herrings were gutted and soaked for a day in brine before being barrelled up in rows between layers of salt to produce ‘white herrings’. In a further refinement shortly after, the fish were first soaked in brine and then strung up and smoked for many hours, and finally barrelled as ‘red herrings’. Again note that at the time they were rarely called 'kippers'."


Yes in our local dialect we call them also "kippers" and we say also "vis gutten" (remove the entrails of the fish) I don't know a Dutch word for it.
http://www.vliz.be/cijfers_beleid/zeevisserij/photo_gallery.php?album=1274&pic=59209
https://www.facebook.com/236588343090898/videos/gutten-van-vis-aan-boord-van-de-o29/1726762127406838/

I will look for "white herrings"...I think it was as we did..."brine" (pekelen?) in salt in a plastic barrel and then in another barrel with layers of salt in between...will look up it tomorrow how we did it from my memory now some 70 years ago...

Kind regards from Paul.

PS: yes and the Brugean Charter from Charles II to fish in British waters up to the Seventies...?
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 26 Jul 2019, 22:59

Lady and MM,

I looked a bit further about the smoking of herring. I learned today that the Dutch have a difference in name between cold smoked and warm smoked herring.
Instead of the Dutch special name we call the cold smoked one just "gerookte haring" and the warm smoked one also. And now I start to hesitate, I think we have never bought cold smoked one. I will ask an expert. Or perhaps MM, there in the South of France they have two different ones? And kippers are the same as wht the English call kippers. And seemingly the dried herring don't exist anymore? or just as dog food...

And from your link lady, I learned that indeed the first Anglo-Dutch war would be sparked by the herring...
https://shkrobius.livejournal.com/376104.html

And MM I found for "white herring"
http://www.mouthofthetweed.co.uk/whiteherrings.html
And I recall to have seen the wooden barrels as on the photo. And now I recall that it as I said were replaced with plastic drums, but no two drums as I said, buth just the whole procedure in one drum as you described and we call that "pekelharing" (pickled herring) (pekelen-pickle, pekel-brine).
And now I see that in my first film about herring smoking it was if see it well the whole herring thus warm smoked herring and not kippers.
I found one of the last British smokeries (it is in Dutch but the photos speak for themselves)
And the owner says the herring as only lay for 20 minutes in brine, otherwise he is too salt
https://www.vice.com/nl/article/pgvz4v/binnenkijken-in-de-laatste-traditionele-haringrokerij-van-groot-brittannie

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySat 27 Jul 2019, 21:42

Addendum to the former message:

"And the owner says the herring as only lay for 20 minutes in brine, otherwise he is too salt"
Correction:
"And the owner says the herring has only to lay 20 minutes in brine, otherwise he is too salt"


Kind regards, Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 09:06

Maybe this should be on the development of a language thread, but I haven't come across "salt" used as an adjective for ages.  I think the last time was in a Norwegian folk tale I read at primary school Why the  Sea is Salt (the story - much simplified - was that a sea captain took a (small) mill which ground salt on board his ship. It must have been an automaton because the mill ground so much salt that the ship fell to the bottom of the sea and is still grinding to this day which is why the sea is salt - though we would probably say "salty" today).

Getting back to Brexit, the new UK Prime Minister is promising so many things - HS2 (I personally don't mind if that never comes to fruition but I digress), good social care and all while cutting taxes and that he'll go with a no-deal Brexit if push comes to shove though I THINK he's saying he would prefer a deal.  Trouble is, the UK needs the goodwill of the other EU countries to get a deal about leaving Brexit.  I hope something can be agreed but I am not 100% optimistic.

I thought yesterday about putting up a poster in one of my windows saying something like "Come back Theresa all (well some of it) is forgiven".  I decided not to though.
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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 14:49

Paul,

 Your :

Yes in our local dialect we call them also "kippers" and we say also "vis gutten" (remove the entrails of the fish) I don't know a Dutch word for it.


About" vis gutten "

Dutch word is "haring kaken"


Dirk

http://www.vliz.be/cijfers_beleid/zeevisserij/photo_gallery.php?album=1274&pic=59209
https://www.facebook.com/236588343090898/videos/gutten-van-vis-aan-boord-van-de-o29/1726762127406838/
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 19:44

Dirk, thanks for the enlightenment. I heard many times the term "haring kaken" in lessons history (the Golden Century and all that), but never connected it with our "gutten". In the time I wasn't yet interested in details as I am now Wink...
And BTW do you know something about "dried" herring? It seems to be now dog food in Holland and I guess in the rest of the Benelux too...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 20:24

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Maybe this should be on the development of a language thread, but I haven't come across "salt" used as an adjective for ages.  I think the last time was in a Norwegian folk tale I read at primary school Why the  Sea is Salt (the story - much simplified - was that a sea captain took a (small) mill which ground salt on board his ship. It must have been an automaton because the mill ground so much salt that the ship fell to the bottom of the sea and is still grinding to this day which is why the sea is salt - though we would probably say "salty" today).

Getting back to Brexit, the new UK Prime Minister is promising so many things - HS2 (I personally don't mind if that never comes to fruition but I digress), good social care and all while cutting taxes and that he'll go with a no-deal Brexit if push comes to shove though I THINK he's saying he would prefer a deal.  Trouble is, the UK needs the goodwill of the other EU countries to get a deal about leaving Brexit.  I hope something can be agreed but I am not 100% optimistic.

I thought yesterday about putting up a poster in one of my windows saying something like "Come back Theresa all (well some of it) is forgiven".  I decided not to though.

Lady,

yes "salty" it has to be. But I think nordmann or was it MM said already on the language board, that one has not yet the complete grasp as during one or more years to be embedded in a new language, when one comes in a hurry situation, one uses the first word that comes to mind to a similar word in the new language or one uses literal translations from the own language.
Normally we say in Dutch: the kaas is zout (the cheese is salty). The word as adjective exist also: "zoutig", but is never I guess used in that context...
https://www.encyclo.nl/begrip/zoutig
1) Bepaalde smaak 2) Brak 3) Hartig 4) Smaak 5) Zilt 6) Zout 7) Zoutachtig 
Gevonden op http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/puzzelwoordenboek/ZOUTIG/1

"Getting back to Brexit, the new UK Prime Minister is promising so many things - HS2 (I personally don't mind if that never comes to fruition but I digress), good social care and all while cutting taxes"

"good social care while cutting taxes" The far right Flemish party for a Flemish Republic has won  a lot of votings in the last elections, which happened the same time as the European ones...and all by the same promises...a lot of people seems not to see the discrepancy...they can ask nordmann for some lessons in logical thinking...
At the one o'clock news o'clock news on TV (1PM) a former leader of the Liberals was invited for an interview to comment the difficult forming of a federal government sparked by the events of the elections...the interviewer saying that those of the far right had inside their far right program also a big chunk of social supporting measures...on that the Liberal replied: they had the same programs in Germany in the Thirties, that meant nationalist and socialist, and it was therefore that they were called National-Socialists...

Kind regrds from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 21:25

"Salt" as an adjective may be old-fashioned now, Paul.  However, there are occasions where it is still used "salt water" (as opposed to fresh water) and "salt beef" (as in beef preserved in salt).  I'm linking to something I found from a forum dating from a few years ago (an online discussion on the subject of "salt" and "salty").  https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/salt-vs-salty.2009416

I lost something of my post so am editing to try and reinstate it.  I will link something about the Wild Range Readers (books used in the 1950s and I think into the 1960s and 1970s as reading material for children who had gone past the initial learning to read stage - I liked them).  https://cultreading70s.blogspot.com/2007/02/wide-range-readers-series.html and the story I read was "Why the Sea is Salt; if the words were slightly different it being so long since I read the story the word "salt" was used as an adjective was used.

Getting back to Brexit I hope the issue of to which country certain waters belong (in the sense of who has the territorial right to fish there) does not become a bone of contention.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 28 Jul 2019, 23:14

Lady,

thanks for the link about "salt". I see that they have in English the same problems as in Dutch.

As about the link
https://cultreading70s.blogspot.com/2007/02/wide-range-readers-series.html
I am a little bit envious, start of the Fifties there was not yet, perhaps due to the war, that much teaching material...
Saluting the flag - Page 3 1649955

We had to do it with the Tintin (Kuifje) weekly, from the Fifties , which was very educational in that time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_(magazine)
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Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyMon 29 Jul 2019, 22:07

Lady,

and what I said yesterday to you:
"At the one o'clock news o'clock news on TV (1PM) a former leader of the Liberals was invited for an interview to comment the difficult forming of a federal government sparked by the events of the elections...the interviewer saying that those of the far right had inside their far right program also a big chunk of social supporting measures...on that the Liberal replied: they had the same programs in Germany in the Thirties, that meant nationalist and socialist, and it was therefore that they were called National-Socialists..."
 
And now the right wing chairman thinks to make juridical mesurements against the Liberal because of the comparison
https://www.hbvl.be/cnt/dmf20190728_04531769/tom-van-grieken-vlaams-belang-dient-klacht-in-tegen-karel-de-gucht

I don't know what the best approach is? demonize the far right, but then the party can gain in popularity among the followers and intended ones by taking a victim's role, but from the other side one has to say where it is all about too?

Is there at the other side of the channel also that much turmoil?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 28 Aug 2019, 23:02

Have to say it becomes more and more Greek to me...
Has the Queen now decided about the "no deal"?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49493632

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2019, 10:26

I'll probably be shouted down but I feel reinforced in my belief that whatever her limitations Mrs May was preferable to Bo-Jo.  I know I discussed Mrs M vs Bo-Jo with someone I know in real life and the other lady opined that in her discussions with the EU bigwigs Mrs M had given away too much of the UK's bargaining power in trying to get a workable deal with the EU upon the UK leaving.  The other lady (who I think voted Remain) said that Bo-Jo had had something to do with the UK obtaining the 2012 Olympics because he spoke in Greek to some of the people who had deciding power.  I can't remember all that well.  I know Bo-Jo did study the classics (and was quite surprised to learn he was born in the USA).  Although the 2012 Olympics were staged during post-2010 coalition government's period in office (which I always considered a Tory government in reality) they were obtained during a period when the Labour Party held the most seats in Parliament.  There was one school of thought that the UK got the Olympics by default because some of the people voting didn't want the French to get them.  (I remember I thought they would go to France).
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2019, 10:36

Gosh, an awful lot of twisted knicker elastic around Westminster and the BBC this morning. Lessons galore here for us Brits and  for our ideas about "democracy" - or should that be our ideas about "res publica"?

How Dom must be laughing at them all: everything is going nicely to plan.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2019, 11:46

PS Dominic Cumming's favourite bit of light reading is Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I don't think those nice ladies from the Lib Dems and the Green Party stand a chance...




  • “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” 

  • “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."

  • “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”




Crikey.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 29 Aug 2019, 23:06

Temperance,

where to start...?
I first looked to your Dom...and later you repeated with Cummings...and so...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_Cummings
is that in the UK the Steve Bannon from the US?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Movement_(populist_group)
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37971742

Cummings and Bo-Jo can be right that they go to a clever strategy of confrontation, which will in any case end in an emotional blame for the "others". The ones that brought England by their indecision into the shit. I say "emotional", while the campaigners don't work on the "ratio" of the "subjects" but on their "emotion".
I wonder, why they haven't introduced history yet, as WWII for instance...but perhaps that is too exagerated and could work contraproductive...?

I think, Temperance, that we in the past in such a discussion agreed, that in such situations it is mostly the emotional approach, which prevails above the rational one...and yes in history it weren't mostly not the diplomats, who could prevent war...? And they were mostly called in again when the war was stalemated...?

I searched this morning if the Boris Johnson trick could work in Belgium too...and I found a link, where exactly that question was posed...but I could only read the start that said that it was, despite our "constitution", with some old texts of the constitution also possible to do it...(Priscilla, was perhaps right, when she said in our debate about "constitution" that she knew events where despite constitutions...)
But then I had to subscribe to the paper and probably pay...and this information is up to now not valuable enough for me to pay for...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 30 Aug 2019, 18:31

Can you spot Steve Bannon surveying the scene in Cold War Steve's latest offering?



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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 30 Aug 2019, 18:39

Just spotted the Buck's Fizz woman too: she's going to run as a Brexit party candidate in the coming election. (Any bets for the date?) I  really do feel as though I'm in a nightmare and I'm never going to wake up.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 30 Aug 2019, 18:44

Talking of nightmares...


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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 30 Aug 2019, 19:31

Temperance, you becomes better and better (or was you good from the beginning? Just that I didn't see it?)

I will not try to start, as I only know from the continent perception such personallities as a Bercow and a Boris and yes perhaps that Socialist guy...
I thinking yesterday about the Northern Irish border in the case of a no deal...
And wanted to start today with a title: No deal: The Northern Irish border the biggest (smokkel) trafficking route in Europe?
And it seems it was not only I, who thought about the matter.
And seemingly reasonable....
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-must-consider-revisiting-the-northern-ireland-only-backstop-1.3972177
James Anderson is Prof Emeritus of political geography at Queen’s University Belfast

Of course it is The Sun, the equivalent of the German Bild Zeitung, but perhaps between all the fuss there is always a core of reality?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8633108/northern-ireland-open-border-smuggling/

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyTue 03 Sep 2019, 11:29

I tuned in for the 11 a.m. "Sky News" on YouTube and there was a caption "Is the Constitution in Crisis?".  Earlier in this thread nordmann explained more expertly than I ever could the lacunae in the British Constitution and the question of whether it can accurately be described as a "Constitution".  It's disheartening.  While I'm left-leaning (politically) on several matters I'm not convinced that the Labour Party is the "great red hope" in its present form.

Very belatedly, MM thanks for the information about the etymology and history of the term "herring".
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 04 Sep 2019, 08:14

Following Alexander Boris de Pifflepaffle Watermelon Letterbox Johnson's abyssmal showing in yesterday's Parliament, when he opened his report on the G7 meeting with "We are on the verge of taking back control," only for the Tory MP Phillip Lee to rise from his place on the Tory benches, cross the floor of the house to join the Lib Dems, and thereby in that moment lose the Tories the last of their miniscule majority ... this little snippet was posted in the comments section of The Guardian online:

Our father who art in heaven, schadenfreude be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Bojo will be done in the Commons as he will be in the Lords. Give us this day our daily Brexit headlines and forgive us our Jacob Rees-Moggs as we forgive those who Jacob Rees-Mogg against us. And lead us not into the WTO and deliver us from Dom and Dommer. Amen.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 04 Sep 2019, 14:07

Temperance, I feel I ought to, but don't, know the original of the Brexit picture above. 

It's not Hieronymous Bosch is it?
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 04 Sep 2019, 14:38

The original painting is called, in English, 'The Triumphant Return of Death' or more simply, 'The Triumph of Death'. It's by Peter Bruegel the elder, painted circa 1562 and it's in the Prado museum in Madrid.

It's not a particularly 'happy' picture, is it?

Saluting the flag - Page 3 Pieter-Bruegel-the-Elder-The-Triumph-of-Death-via-wikimedia

However I can't work out the original for Temp's one above that where she comments about Steve Bannon overseeing all the chaos in Parliament, although I feel I should recognise it. I suspect it's one of those Victorian romantic, pre-Raphaelite type representations of key historic events that were, despite their historical inaccuracies, so often used to illustrate secondary-school, O-level history books, throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s ... such as those paintings by Millais, Rossetti, Holman-Hunt or Alma-Tadema.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 13:14

The original is "Five Members" by Charles West Cope, Hatty. MM is spot on - a Victorian painter of historical subjects. I had to look it up too!

I wish Cold War Steve had shown Cummings as Matthew Hopkins looking scary and mad, wearing a Puritan big black hat: Private Eye are now calling the adviser-in-chief to Her Majesty's government Witchfinder General.


PS Dom and Dommer  (loved the bit from the Guardian, MM) must be busily revising some of the advice in his Game Theory for Dommies this week.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 13:41

Oh well done, Temp, for identifying Charles West Cope's "Five Members", depicting King Charles I's entry into the House of Commons in 1642 in his attempt to arrest five Members of Parliament for defying him:

Saluting the flag - Page 3 Attempted-Arrest-of-the-Five-members-by-Charles-West-Cope

Funny that you should liken Cummings to Matthew Hopkins. I was going to make the same comment after you'd posted the 'Disection of the British Body Politic' image (or whatever Cold War Steve calls his pic) that Cummings facially resembled Hopkins ... but alas when I searched around the internet it appears that no-one really knows what Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder-General, actually looked like (no accurate contemporary images exist). Perhaps Evil Dom looks like one of the actors who have represented Matthew Hopkins, and so that's just what's become imprinted in my memory?

PS : The "Dom and Dommer" reference originally comes from The Guardian's daily satirical 'Political sketch' by John Crace , although, such are the mad times we live in, Crace's sharp, jokey satire is increasingly a simple mirror of the same paper's factual political reporting.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 14:23

Here's John Crace on yesterday's farce:



Boris Johnson’s speech at a police academy in Wakefield was the shitshow to end all shitshows. It made his dystopian performances at the dispatch box over the previous two days look like models of sanity and coherence.


I wish I could do trendy things with a computer and conjure up a picture of Hopkins with Evil Dom's head - I've looked to see if any clever Tweeter has produced such an image, but no one has so far.


I know we have to be careful (sign o' the times) here with our comments on Brexit, but Private Eye, in a powerfully absurd piece, has produced a guide - similar to the old Protect and Survive publication - giving useful advice as to how we should all be preparing for the nightmare possibiity of a No Deal Brexit. One suggestion - there are several - is that every UK household should build its own backstop.


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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 21:37

Found one.



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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 21:48

Re Brexit and the English Civil War - this is an interesting piece from the LSE. The maps are fascinating:


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/09/brexit-has-the-semblance-of-a-new-english-civil-war/



The political map of the Brexit vote resembles the regional distribution of support for the King, Court and Tories against Parliament, Merchants and liberal Whigs. The geography of narrow conservatism and open-minded liberalism does not seem to have changed for centuries...
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 06 Sep 2019, 22:36

Temperance,

I think that we agreed yet that the people don't think so much with their "ratio" but more with an "emotional" approach. And you can guess, who I see as thinking with their ratio. But perhaps I, we? would better abstain and wait and see as it are such "emotional" times. I think it was MM, who mentioned in the beginning (2016) about the judges, who declared that the parliament had to have a say, that they had to be hanged by the mob? Even a photo from a paper, if I recall it well.

I still hope that Bo Jo will opt for the Northern Ireland only backstop Wink and that would be an option for the EU to make a deal too...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySat 07 Sep 2019, 11:21

I hope you will open and read my link, Paul. It is not "emotional" at all, but a lucid and scholarly comparison - Civil War and our current Brexit Uncivil War. I just wish I knew more about the 17th century.

I found Professor Collignon's comments about Ireland and Scotland particularly interesting:




Shall we see a similarly decisive role for Scotland and Ireland in the Brexit negotiations? The Scottish Government is now forging ahead with its own EU Withdrawal Bill – despite being told it is beyond the Scottish Parliament’s powers. Scottish nationalists wish to stay in the customs union and the single market and aim for a Norwegian option. A constitutional conflict seems inevitable. And the danger of locking people up behind borders is nowhere more obvious than in Ireland. The UK government has repeatedly stated that it does not want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and Britain, but a hard Brexit is simply not compatible with that option.
While history may not repeat itself, geography imposes constraints on what political actors can do. Scotland and Ireland have saved England from itself in the 17th century. It may well turn out, once again, that Scotland and Ireland will keep Britain open and defeat little England.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySat 07 Sep 2019, 13:16

MM, have you seen this - Benedict Cumberbatch as Evil Dom in Brexit: The Uncivil War? I don't know if you can access it in France. The drama caused quite a stir when it was shown here in January.




My favourite bit is Dom as helmeted urban warrior, tearing around London on his trusty bike, obviously fancying himself as the new Alexander the Great, ready to take on the idiots (old and young) who just haven't got a clue. Not a knot so knotty but can be sliced through by this man with a bike, an Oxford history degree* and a mobile phone.

But have the gods, ever just, cut him down now - hubris and all that? "He's not Alexander the Great: he's just a very naughty boy." 

Actually, that's probably more Boris than Dom.


PS *Cummings graduated from Oxford with a First in Ancient and Modern History; during the drama he was forever quoting chunks from his favourite military strategists of the Ancient World. Johnson, of course, read Classics. Makes one wonder if there could after all be some truth in Henry Miller's remark: “Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy to the human race."
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySat 07 Sep 2019, 22:39

@Temperance wrote:
I hope you will open and read my link, Paul. It is not "emotional" at all, but a lucid and scholarly comparison - Civil War and our current Brexit Uncivil War. I just wish I knew more about the 17th century.

Dear Temperance, I read your link, but my comment was more in general about the British "people", and perhaps any people in such circumstances. They don't react mostly not along rational lines, but more emotional. Irrational toughts as we aren't treated well, "they" seek to hamper "us"...
And in that they are stiffened by the British tabloids. I read this afternoon an article in a Belgian paper about those tabloids, far worser than on the continent (a German Bild Zeitung is only a bleak equivalent of them). It was an interview with a certain Green... formerly from the Sun and now teaching journalisitc or something like that...Most seem to be right wing conservative, only the Daily Mirror left wing...
And pictures that here would condemn the paper in Belgium, could pass in England. As for instance the picture that I mentioned yesterday to you on 4 Nov 2016

Saluting the flag - Page 3 CwX7oYTXgAAnHEA


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptySun 08 Sep 2019, 12:55

When looking at the British tabloids, Paul, one needs to apply critical thinking (not critical in a pejorative way - but sensible thinking).  They sometimes try to persuade their readers of a point of view without being too obvious about it.  A late neighbour of mine once said something to me about the price of the BBC licence because of something he had read in The Sun newspaper.  I'm not sure who owns The Sun currently but at one time it was part of "the Murdoch Empire".  I looked online to see the prices of various offers for Sky TV (also at one time owned by the Murdoch Empire - again I'm not sure who owns it presently).  This was a while ago and working the price of a BBC licence out per day/month at that of the cheapest Sky offer I could find at the time, the BBC licence worked out cheaper.  But a lot of people wouldn't check the figures and would take what the paper said as accurate.  I can see one inaccuracy or at least hyperbole in the first paragraph of the front page Paul has inserted into his post above where it mentions ".....frustrate the overwhelming verdict of the British public." - (emboldening is mine).  When 52% voted "Leave" and 48% voted "Remain" I would hardly call a difference of a mere 4% "overwhelming".  Also, how the heck would the writer of the piece know that all the Remain supporters in Parliament are "embittered".

There might be a better way to finance the BBC than a television licence but that's not the point of this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyTue 10 Sep 2019, 09:44

Paul, knowing you to be a bit of a fan of the Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow, you might be interested to learn that he has suddenly announced that he will be stepping down. As ever his timing is very shrewd. The Tories under Johnson had wanted to use Bercow as an anti-Parliament electioneering battle cry and now they can’t. What’s worse for them is they’ll get another Speaker elected by the opposition that they won’t be able to touch. They are getting defeated yet again by a heady mixture of their own appalling political advice, arrogance and incompetence.



And that wasn't all the drama as later that night/this morning Parliament was finally prorogued by Johnson's government to prevent any further discussion about Brexit and so to force the UK to crash out of the EU on the 31st October (the date Bercow clearly stated as when he will step down). In scenes reminiscent of the occasion in March 1629 when King Charles I forced the closure of the Commons, several MPs tried to physically prevent Bercow leaving the chamber and so keep the session open.



In 1629 Charles I had grown tired of a parliament which would not support his disastrous and expensive foreign policy errors and ordered its dissolution. The MPs were so incensed when speaker John Finch announced the closure of the session, they promptly left their seats and sat on him. Holding him in the chair meant that he could not rise from his seat, and thus close the house. While he writhed under at least five members, the MPs passed a series of motions condemning the king’s policies. The closure of parliament in 1629 led to ten years of extra-parliamentary rule in England and Wales – known variously as Charles I’s Personal Rule or the 11 Years’ Tyranny.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyTue 10 Sep 2019, 20:13

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
When looking at the British tabloids, Paul, one needs to apply critical thinking (not critical in a pejorative way - but sensible thinking).  They sometimes try to persuade their readers of a point of view without being too obvious about it.  A late neighbour of mine once said something to me about the price of the BBC licence because of something he had read in The Sun newspaper.  I'm not sure who owns The Sun currently but at one time it was part of "the Murdoch Empire".  I looked online to see the prices of various offers for Sky TV (also at one time owned by the Murdoch Empire - again I'm not sure who owns it presently).  This was a while ago and working the price of a BBC licence out per day/month at that of the cheapest Sky offer I could find at the time, the BBC licence worked out cheaper.  But a lot of people wouldn't check the figures and would take what the paper said as accurate.  I can see one inaccuracy or at least hyperbole in the first paragraph of the front page Paul has inserted into his post above where it mentions ".....frustrate the overwhelming verdict of the British public." - (emboldening is mine).  When 52% voted "Leave" and 48% voted "Remain" I would hardly call a difference of a mere 4% "overwhelming".  Also, how the heck would the writer of the piece know that all the Remain supporters in Parliament are "embittered".

There might be a better way to finance the BBC than a television licence but that's not the point of this thread.

Yes Lady, you are right, but perhaps these tabloids have also a role in society as a wake up call for those felt asleep and need some controversy. I like more the cartoons of the serious papers, but the articles of the tabloids stirr many times also a bit of sane talking?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyTue 10 Sep 2019, 20:38

MM,

yes John Bercow is my hero. And today he had his column with photos and comments in all the serious Belgian papers, be it liberal, socialist, centre right.
And what a speech, and he has my price for good articulation. If you don't understand "that" English...it is worth a theatre act...I will not say Shakespeare or Molière...

The second youtube "says": this video is not available. This video is a private one. (in Dutch as my computer stands in Dutch)
So I can not enjoy the act of Bercow, reenacting the 1629 scene. But thanks nevertheless for the historical context.

My humble bet, but with those comtemporaneous Brits you never know...
As Boris Johnson met Varadkar
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/sep/09/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-clean-break-brexit-irish-pm-varadkar-warns-johnson-video
"And seemingly reasonable....
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-must-consider-revisiting-the-northern-ireland-only-backstop-1.3972177
James Anderson is Prof Emeritus of political geography at Queen’s University Belfast

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 09:24

I don't know if this video will work, Paul, (some videos will only work on the YouTube platform itself and not from an embedded video).  I don't know if the saying "I don't give a flying flamingo" was in existence before Mr Bercow said it, but I can see it making its way into popular speech now.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 09:55

Admittedly I had seen this on Youtube before, but here it was once again. 
I admire this Speaker's ability to say those long and consistent sentences while keeping an eye on who may - or not - act disrespectfully towards or against other members.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 10:48

From BBC News website :

Boris Johnson’s suspension of the UK Parliament is unlawful, Scotland’s highest civil court has ruled.
A panel of three judges at the Court of Session found in favour of a cross-party group of politicians who were challenging the prime minister's move.
The decision overturns an earlier ruling from the court, which said last week Mr Johnson had not broken the law.
But it will not immediately affect the current suspension of Parliament, which started in the early hours of Tuesday.
This is because no order has been given by the court to cancel the suspension ahead of a full hearing at the Supreme Court in London which starts on Tuesday of next week.

Oh joy unconstrained. Yet another twist in the tangled web of Bre***t
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 20:10

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I don't know if this video will work, Paul, (some videos will only work on the YouTube platform itself and not from an embedded video).  I don't know if the saying "I don't give a flying flamingo" was in existence before Mr Bercow said it, but I can see it making its way into popular speech now.

MM and LiR,

thanks LiR, this video works...
And yes "I don't give a flying (f**k) flamingo will become history I suppose
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/flying-flamingo.3613142/

MM, in LiR's video I don't see anyone oppressing physically John Bercow...
Did they in your video? Or did I miss something?

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 21:32

Can we change the title of this thread, or at least bring it round to some form of historical discussion? The amount (and tenor) of the extramural "input" from self-proclaimed anonymous English potential history fans is rather overwhelming for a one-man sewage valve like myself, and a little too overwhelming for a hopefully intelligent Irish one at that. I really want to think the best of you lot, but ...
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 23:28

@nordmann wrote:
Can we change the title of this thread, or at least bring it round to some form of historical discussion? The amount (and tenor) of the extramural "input" from self-proclaimed anonymous English potential history fans is rather overwhelming for a one-man sewage valve like myself, and a little too overwhelming for a hopefully intelligent Irish one at that. I really want to think the best of you lot, but ...
 
nordmann,

as I now have learned Wink how to change a title and as I started the thread. Have you a suggestion for an historical title? (oops: in English the "h" is also aspirated as in Dutch: a historical, it is my dialect, which brings me in failure)

"om tegemoet te komen aan je verzuchtingen"  ("verzuchtingen" don't seem to exist in Dutch and there it is "verwachtingen" (expectations). I think you will meet it only in Southern Dutch)
But "verzuchtingen" they translate by "concerns" hence then:

To meet your concerns.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyWed 11 Sep 2019, 23:41

How about the stage direction from "A Winter's Tale" 'Exit, pursued by a bear'? Better, perhaps, to omit "Exit" and just use "Pursued by a bear", Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 07:48

Finding an historical title (one can indeed use "an" there, Paul) for a discussion about contemporary events might be a little disingenuous.

Which is not to say that I didn't give the matter some thought. I have in fact researched as much as I possibly could for historical precedents in which the lunatics took over the asylum but apart from in Britain, it appears, the rest of the world is content that the phrase remains a simple euphemism for an unconscionable state of affairs and not an actual recommended course of action in any sane circumstances.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 09:15

Did we have a thread about current history or history in the making once, nordmann?  I'm sorry you are having to endure (off site) unpleasantness.  In the worst possible scenario I suppose you could close the thread though that goes against the hard won freedoms of the average man or woman in the street.  Makes me think about that saying of Oliver Cromwell's about everyone wanting freedom but once they have it they will want to take it from everyone else.  It's not against the law to hold a differing opinions the majority one yet in the UK (or in Europe as far as I understand).

Editing.  I was looking online to find the exact wording of Cromwell's saying and I have had no luck.  I'm sure a teacher at night school mentioned it.  Or is it an urban legend?


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 16:40; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit: I had forgotten to close brackets.)
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 15:03

If men within themselves would be governed by reason, and not generally give up their understanding to a double tyranny, of custom from without, and blind affections within; they would discern better what it is to favour and uphold the tyrant of a nation. But being slaves within doors, no wonder that they strive so much to have the public state conformably governed to the inward vicious rule, by which they govern themselves. For indeed none can love freedom heartily, but good men: the rest love not freedom, but license: which never hath more scope, or more indulgence than under tyrants.



The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates  (John Milton)



I had a discussion the other day with someone who knows a lot about the Civil War. I was astounded when he told me that it is important to realise that Parliament emerged the victor in that sad conflict. I replied that Parliament did not win: the Army won. He told me I was just being contrary, which comment baffled me somewhat. So who did win the Civil War?




I am saddened to think that we find ourselves hesitating to discuss any topic that is of interest. The Elephant thread is perhaps the place for this discussion - or perhaps we had better all just shut up and stick to gardening.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 15:46

If I understood correctly, Temperance*, nordmann has been receiving unpleasant emails to the address where one asks about joining the website - or contacts nordmann if one can't get access to the site - that sort of thing.  Such emails I thought were coming from people who don't belong to the site.  There is a law (in the UK at least) against malicious communications but internet law is still in its infancy so it takes a long time for case law to be established.  It's a shame if we have to be careful on this site (which is a lot smaller than say Historum) and doubly a pity if we let the trolls win.

Gilgamesh's suggestion is sound and has some humour in it.  I just looked on "Power Thesaurus" for alternatives to "Elephant in the Room".  Some suggestions given there were (though I don't think they are exactly the same as E____ I___T___R___) 'Gorilla in the Room', 'Taboo Subject', 'Bull in a China Shop', 'Thorn in the Flesh' and 'Matter of Discord'.  Can the B word thread be migrated into the Elephant thread?  If so, Temperance's suggestion could work.  I wonder where the trolls are coming from.  Do they just type "Brexit" into whatever** search engine they use and happen upon Res Hist?

* Temperance, I know you're not silly so you likely realised that.

** or should the word be "whichever"


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 18:06; edited 1 time in total
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 18:01

LiR wrote:
Temperance, I know you're not silly so you likely realised that.

I probably am a bit on the silly side, LiR - I'm certainly confused by all this troll nonsense. Why on earth are they targeting the site manager when he rarely posts anything here on our pathetic little Elephant thread?  Anything remotely controversial has been deleted. All seems a bit odd to me, to be honest.

Been reading Diane Purkiss on the English Civil War: she is said to be an expert on the topic, despite being a professor of English Literature at Oxford.  She's probably pretty silly too, and should stick to discussing Wuthering Heights and similar stuff. She's a bit gloomy about our prospects:

"If we get out of the current impasse without shots being fired we will be doing better than I ever expected. The question from here is whether we can at the last hour muddle together some kind of final British compromise."

Ah - muddle together and compromise - now there's an old-fashioned word: those were the days, or at least we thought they were. They were probably nothing of the sort.

I'm very interested in the economics of the 17th century conflict and of our own: an awful lot of money was up for grabs four hundred years ago, despite all the guff about freedom and God. Both sides were fond of shouting, "God with us!" - now the hypocritical rallying cry is: "Democracy with us!"

It's a bad business - always was, always will be - money-grabbing, I mean, not freedom or democracy. And on that cheery note I sign off - at least for the time being.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyThu 12 Sep 2019, 19:48

@nordmann wrote:
Finding an historical title (one can indeed use "an" there, Paul) for a discussion about contemporary events might be a little disingenuous.

Which is not to say that I didn't give the matter some thought. I have in fact researched as much as I possibly could for historical precedents in which the lunatics took over the asylum but apart from in Britain, it appears, the rest of the world is content that the phrase remains a simple euphemism for an unconscionable state of affairs and not an actual recommended course of action in any sane circumstances.

nordmann,

sorry to have not immediately understood, what you said. Lady in retirement opened my eyes. She is such a clever girl. My only excuse is that English is not my mother language and that I am from the European peninsula. I even didn't understand Caro's message and she is from New Zealand...

I did also some research for historical precedents that are neutral and perhaps have from far some relationship...

What about the neutral title: Saluting the flag.

In this case it comes from the First Anglo-Dutch war.
As a start it can act as a deterrent for "them"?
http://bcw-project.org/church-and-state/the-commonwealth/first-anglo-dutch-war
"As a further irritant, the Commonwealth continued the traditional claim to sovereignty of the "British Seas"—from the German Ocean (the North Sea) to Cape Finisterre—and required foreign ships in these waters to strike their flags to English men-of-war as a mark of respect."
And there is a lot to talk about: Republicans versus royalists (Orangists) and a William III...oops and there we sit again in the Irish question Embarassed

Perhaps better to start with just "saluting the flag" as we already discussed it with the Roman salute and the stuff of the Thirties.
But typing it in Google the first entries of course American...
Yes I know the Americans a bit already I was three times in the US I think a 7 weeks altogether and a bit allover the place...
https://homeofheroes.com/flag-of-freedom/saluting-flag/

But in any case: "Saluting the flag", whatever it means.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 13 Sep 2019, 09:32

I think there are some parties who don't consider me particularly clever, Paul.

Temperance, I don't think people who "troll" on the internet have a reason to do so, not a sensible reason anyway.  Maybe they just have too much time on their hands.  I've read about a couple of internet "trolls" being jailed but I don't want to go into detail about that case because it is somewhat strange and has people with odd ideas associated with it and I don't want to attract such people to this site.  Katie Hopkins, TV personality, was fined because she falsely accused someone on Twitter of damaging war memorials.  (She may have made a genuine mistake - confusing names - and she did eventually delete her Twitter, but the damage was done).  Good natured teasing is different.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 3 EmptyFri 13 Sep 2019, 14:09

Paul,

 with reference to your:
"

MM, in LiR's video I don't see anyone oppressing physically John Bercow...
Did they in your video? Or did I miss something?"

 posted on Wednesday September 11th.

There was NO physical oppression at all . It was all about  a few MP's standing on each side of the Speakers Chair just to pretend stopping him leaving.

More than likely just a symbolical gesture.


Dirk
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