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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 06 Nov 2019, 07:27

@PaulRyckier wrote:
And I have the impression, as I see it, that the UK will have its exit with a deal before the Belgians have a federal government.

Ah but the 'deal' that everyone is currently haggling about is only the initial Withdrawal Agreement covering what happens immediately on the day the UK finally leaves. Negociating the real deals and managing the fallout will only start then and will go on for many years, possibly decades. While there already seems to be a lot of 'brexit fatigue' settling in, I think all those demanding "just get it done" (whatever 'it' exactly is) are going to be in for a very nasty shock as 'it' continues to drag on, dominating politics and creating turmoil in everyones lives. But Pandora's box has been opened: there's no way back now.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 06 Nov 2019, 07:42

Yep - absolutely - but people seem to be cottoning on to that. Boris and the Gang may be in for a very nasty shock too. Just wish Jo Swinson didn't come across as an enthusiastic Girl Guide.

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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 06 Nov 2019, 08:40

An interesting opinion piece by Raphael Behr in today's Guardian The monstrous ugly tangle of Brexit will be ignored in this ‘Brexit election’ also refers to Brexit, and specifically its role in the upcoming general election, in mythological terms:

"... Brexit is like the mythical Gorgon that turns to stone all who meet its gaze. It must instead be stalked indirectly, using the monster’s reflection in their polished shield.

That is why the election will be only obliquely about Brexit. It will not feature rational evaluation of Britain’s relationship with the rest of Europe. These campaigns never do. The referendum drove big red and blue buses down every social fault line in the country without arriving at a functional definition of Brexit. The 2017 election was more animated by fox-hunting and dementia care than customs unions and regulatory alignment. Even when politics appears to be about Brexit, it conspires to be about something else: jostling for position in a Tory leadership race; pro-remain guerrilla manoeuvres in the remote hills of Commons procedure.

With parliament dissolved, anything relating to the substance of negotiation in Brussels will fall off the agenda because it is a boring subject for most voters and always has been. Meanwhile, neither of the two candidates to be prime minister is going to offer an honest appraisal of why leaving has been so difficult and why it brings no material benefit to the country.

Elections used to bring us solutions. The 2019 general election won’t.

There will be ample talk of something called Brexit, but that word will continue to be a proxy for grievances only tangentially connected to EU membership. Or it will be a tint on the lens through which other issues – the NHS, crime, education – will be projected. If British politics was capable of sustaining a focus on the banal reality of continental integration it would have happened by now. And of all the climates in which to cultivate measured debate on the subject, a frenzied, polarised election campaign is the least hospitable. We will get to the end of it and, whatever the result, the monstrous tangle of ugly Brexit choices will still be there. The Gorgon will not be slain."


As he says, this general election is all about Brexit but neither of the main players dare mention it too explicitly as the politics of aborting Brexit are as gruesome as the economics of going through with it. There is no good outcome now, only different routes to realising that it was a stupid idea in the first place.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 06 Nov 2019, 21:33

@Meles meles wrote:
While there already seems to be a lot of 'brexit fatigue' settling in, I think all those demanding "just get it done" (whatever 'it' exactly is) are going to be in for a very nasty shock as 'it' continues to drag on, dominating politics and creating turmoil in everyones lives. But Pandora's box has been opened: there's no way back now.

Yes MM, but as you say: There is no way back now. In my opinion, the most important now is that there is a deal. And how nasty the consequences may be, it will, again in my opinion, much less nasty than a no deal with two blocks of nearly equivalent weight, who are figthing perhaps each other even to a point of civil disorder. I read today in the newspapers overhere about some 6? women (with their photos), who didn't want to participate in the elections for fear of the turmoil?

I hadn't read your second reply with the Guardian article this morning, as I only lurked in a hurry to the board, and had prepared in mind only the former paragraph.
But as I understand the article and your comments, correct me if I am wrong, the elections will not bring anything new and they will go the difficult way of the deal, that is not that different from Theresa May's deal? But in Theresa May's time the DUP was "incourtonable" (unescapable?).

Overhere about the forming of the Belgian government things are perhaps worser, as there is no sight of a compromise between the right wing Flemish region and the left wing Francophone Brussels/Walloon regions., perhaps because in the Flemish region they are afraid of the far right and in the Francophone regions they are afraid of the far left. If there is no deal, there will be new elections and in my humble opinion that will solve nothing, even a smaller possibility for a compromise, while the extremes will gain again and the left-right differences will grow to such a degree that no compromise is possible anymore.

Kind regards, Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 12 Nov 2019, 09:34

Yesterday I attended a talk given by a ranger from Forestry England about forestry on Cannock Chase (which is situated in my home county).  He mentioned that Forestry England is part of what used to be the Forestry Commission.  What the heck has that to do with "Salute the Flag" you may ask.  Well, I can't remember exactly but he mentioned that the Welsh arm of what used to be The Forestry Commission was in a complicated state of affairs because of matters concerning the EU.  I didn't have time or opportunity to ask him about that but I wondered whether the Welsh successor entity to The Forestry Commission has taken money from the EU in the form of grants etc.  People who voted Leave have tended to think along the lines of the UK paying an inordinate amount of money into the EU but I o wonder where we stand on awards that have been made to UK causes from the EU.  Will they have to be repaid?  I might send an email to the local branch of Forestry England asking about this matter.

I know that Forestry England was mentioned in the "Who Owns England...who owns my parking space" thread (going from memory so sorry if I have slightly paraphrased) but I decided to put my post here because it related to the EU.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 22 Nov 2019, 18:15

Deleted - no more politics from me.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySat 23 Nov 2019, 15:59

I know how you feel. Temps. And to get people to vote it is important that we see how each leader does the Waltz, Quickstep, American Smooth and of course the Passe Double-talk to music now. 

People are highly paid to spout rubbish speculation which is very annoying because I bet I could do the same very well but no one has asked me.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 27 Nov 2019, 03:13

This is nothing to do with the EU or Brexit (which we in NZ are heartily sick of so how the British pblic manage with your much more vicious newspapers is a mystery to me), but I am just harking back to a mention of Cannock Chase. We visited there on the last day of one of our visits to Britain. It has a cemetery with the graves of 73 NZ soldiers (and others) from the first world war and I was keen to see it.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 13 Dec 2019, 01:20

@Priscilla wrote:
I know how you feel. Temps. And to get people to vote it is important that we see how each leader does the Waltz, Quickstep, American Smooth and of course the Passe Double-talk to music now. 

People are highly paid to spout rubbish speculation which is very annoying because I bet I could do the same very well but no one has asked me.

And Priscilla, a Brexit deal before next year?

Kind regards, Paul.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 13 Dec 2019, 11:55

@PaulRyckier wrote:
... a Brexit deal before next year?

Probably (if by 'deal' you mean the already agreed by EU, Withdrawal Agreement), but then after that the fun will really start as I don't see a comprehensive Trade Deal being agreed anytime soon. However at least from a European perspective we can all hopefully move on without having to deal with a troublesome UK that wants to leave but then still doesn't seem to actually know where it wants to go, and since it hasn't actually gone, still, correctly but frustratingly, has to be treated as a full member.

Johnson reckons he now has a mandate "to get brexit done" [whatever that actually means] ..."because this election means that getting Brexit done is now the irrefutable, irresistible, unarguable decision of the British people." He can't stop lying can he? The Conservatives took 43.5 percent of the total UK vote share (though only 25 percent in Scotland, and 47 percent in England), with Labour taking 32.4 percent of the UK vote share. The Liberal Democrats had 11 percent of UK votes, the SNP 3.9 percent of UK votes, while 2.7 percent of UK voters chose the Greens and two percent chose the Brexit Party. 

So actually the remain parties (Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens) at 53%, got a bigger share than the brexit parties (Con and BP) at 47%. One can argue the exact figures but nevertheless to my mind, while Johnson does now have a clear majority of seats in the Commons - there really is no clear mandate from the electorate for brexit. It just isn't there ... and I'm pretty sure that this substantial proportion of the active electorate - half - will not simply evaporate and disappear just because of Johnson's spin, lies and bluster. After three years of political wrangling, about as many people still seem to be as vehemently opposed to brexit as are for it ... with also, one should note, roughly as many having no professed opinion either way.

Brexit aside, it should also be noted that 43% of the votes have given 57% of the seats: the so-called first-past-the-post system really does need changing. Although the trouble is when the system gives you a disproportionate majority, like Tony Blair had in 1997 and now Boris has, you are hardly going to use it to change the voting system to prevent that happening again, are you? Overall though I reckon is wasn't so much Johnson winning the election, as Corbyn losing it.

However with all the new Tory seats in former staunch Labour heartlands he is going to have to deliver more than just rhetoric and bluster. And his majority also dilutes the influence of the hard-brexit ERG, so maybe Johnson will have political room to ameliorate the effects of brexit by pursuing a closer relationship with the EU than Theresa May was ever allowed to go for because of the ERG control on voting numbers. It's either that or, emboldened by his Commons majority, push for a hard brexit. But that raises the stakes and of necessity he'd have to be prepared to ditch the whole idea of a 'United Kingdom', in the way that they do rather seem prepared to dump Northern Ireland. 

By "one-nation Conservatism", I assume Johnson really means England: it certainly does not seem to include Scotland and Northern Ireland. Scotland in particular can't keep voting for one government and getting a completely different one - it is not democratically sustainable. Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish Nationalists) does seem to have played a blinder there, although I wonder how much her party's gains were more about defeating brexit, than about Scottish independence. Far from "getting brexit done" it rather looks to me like it's Britain that's been 'done', all in the name of the billionaire tax dodges and fiscal fiddles called Brexit. 

But the election result is what it is: there is no going back and Britain now has a government in place that has no problem in transparently lying to the people and blatantly manipulating the media, has no problem breaking numerous laws, and has openly voiced the intent to re-write everyone's rights. But at least the Tories have been well and truly left holding the Brexit baby and they'll have to start coming up with workable stuff pretty soon - unless they intend to keep blaming everyone else when reality means they can't actually deliver on their promises. I suspect brexit and its repercussions will continue to dominate British politics for years yet. Johnson may try to "get brexit done" and create "one nation" again, but I fear many in Britain, whether they voted for Johnson or not, are going to be in for a rough ride of disappointment: more austerity; a diminuation of general living standards, and even deeper division in society - not just between 'brexiters' and 'remainers' but also between the regions and the cities; the north against the south; the old against the young; those with inherited wealth and private health insurance, and those disabled, destitute or on benefits -  generally a division between the 'haves' who have a say, against the 'have-nots' who are expected to remain largely abandoned and voiceless. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I guess we'll see. The Tory's have had nine years to try and address these serious divisions in society ... but in all that time, at least as far as I can see, they have only succeeded in widening them.

... Well, for what it's worth, that's my take on the whole sorry affair at the moment, and I speak as a British citizen, albeit now resident in France but acutely affected by brexit, and yet denied any vote in the 2016 referendum or the subsequent general elections. 

I just hope this doesn't earn Nordman another vitriolic online attack.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 13 Dec 2019, 22:34

@Meles meles wrote:
Johnson reckons he now has a mandate "to get brexit done" [whatever that actually means] ..."because this election means that getting Brexit done is now the irrefutable, irresistible, unarguable decision of the British people." He can't stop lying can he? The Conservatives took 43.5 percent of the total UK vote share (though only 25 percent in Scotland, and 47 percent in England), with Labour taking 32.4 percent of the UK vote share. The Liberal Democrats had 11 percent of UK votes, the SNP 3.9 percent of UK votes, while 2.7 percent of UK voters chose the Greens and two percent chose the Brexit Party. 

However with all the new Tory seats in former staunch Labour heartlands he is going to have to deliver more than just rhetoric and bluster. And his majority also dilutes the influence of the hard-brexit ERG, so maybe Johnson will have political room to ameliorate the effects of brexit by pursuing a closer relationship with the EU than Theresa May was ever allowed to go for because of the ERG control on voting numbers. It's either that or, emboldened by his Commons majority, push for a hard brexit. But that raises the stakes and of necessity he'd have to be prepared to ditch the whole idea of a 'United Kingdom', in the way that they do rather seem prepared to dump Northern Ireland. 

MM, thank you very much for your in depth analysis.

You said that 43% of the votes gives 57% of the seats by the so-called first-past-the-post system. And I agree it is perhaps not proportional and fair. But the system is what it is. The US elections are with the "swing states?" perhaps not fair either. Proportional Clinton had more votes than Trump but with the US system it was Trump, who won. You can even say that the seats of the EU parliament aren't proportional either, as small countries as Malta, Luxemburg, Cyprus, Estonia have the minimum of six seats, while only Germany has the maximum of 96 seats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment_in_the_European_Parliament

And now, and that was the analysis of papers and TV overhere too, he has the mandate and he will have to start to deliver what he promised and as you said with more than half the voters against him it will not be an easy mandate. And yes here too, they said: and now Scotland?

But I wanted as a comment broaden the scope to Europe and yes perhaps to the whole Western world...with a small comparaison with Belgium, that I know best and which has no new government yet and if there are new elections the solution for a "federal" government will become surely more difficult.

I have the impression that it is not a British fenomenon (not sure about Scotland?) where the "Conservatives/Right wing governments are gaining (exception Portugal?), the US, Brasil, Australia to call but some? And at the same time the extreme left and extreme right is winning too?

And am I wrong, but the middle parties are everywhere too split to form a real counterweight to the rather populist conservative/extreme far right/extreme far left...

I give an example of the last news in the Belgian federal government formation. It is because the traditional middle parties as the Christian-Democrats, the Liberals and the Socialists can't agree on support for the "soft" Flemish Nationalist and the more seen as Socialist Greens, that it is possible that we end in Belgium with a right to far right-wing Flemish region and a left to far left wing Francophone Walloon/Brussels region, instead of a national Belgian mix of right-middle-left. For me as a Belgicist, not a nice perspectif. And it remembers me as about what I read about the "interbellum" (the period between the two WWs). Perhaps in the world too...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySun 15 Dec 2019, 13:10

@Meles meles wrote:
By "one-nation Conservatism", I assume Johnson really means England: it certainly does not seem to include Scotland and Northern Ireland. Scotland in particular can't keep voting for one government and getting a completely different one - it is not democratically sustainable. Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish Nationalists) does seem to have played a blinder there, although I wonder how much her party's gains were more about defeating brexit, than about Scottish independence. Far from "getting brexit done" it rather looks to me like it's Britain that's been 'done', all in the name of the billionaire tax dodges and fiscal fiddles called Brexit.

Yes. Historian Professor Peter Hennessy was on the radio yesterday saying that the implications of the results in Scotland and Northern Ireland are far more historically significant than even the UK leaving the EU. I would tend to agree with this. I haven't yet had the chance to fully study and digest the statistics relating to each of the member states of the UK but at first glance it does indeed suggest that the outlook for the union as a whole is dire.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 10:57

As predicted and as ever with no written constitution in place the Mother of Parliaments etc has been sorted. To what end we have yet to see. 

If it Scotland leaves the Union - and somehow stays with the EU, how much would her financial contribution to it be? There must be an applied formula. And how many seats awarded for Strasburg? To break from what is seen as constraints but cling to  others with considerable power seems odd but I assume that has been thought through by the SNP. 

This election revealed how much virulent hatred there is knocking about - much based on stuff that happened long ago yet fed to new generations so it is ever ongoing. Knowing is important, reviling is dangerous an hatred  belittles all who foster it.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 13:04

@Priscilla wrote:
As predicted and as ever with no written constitution in place the Mother of Parliaments etc has been sorted. 

Is that "sorted" in much the same way that brexit is about to be "done"?

But sadly I agree with you about the virulent hatred, although I'm not surprised when a 43% voter share wins 53% of the seats and furthermore that 53% is then claimed as a clear mandate for brexit. All I think it shows is that the country is as divided as ever. Especially so as the "get brexit done" election was won on the basis of an "oven ready" withdrawal agreement, that is essentially Theresa May's repeatedly-defeated withdrawal agreement, meanwhile there still doesn't seem to be any concensus in government about what they realistically want from brexit or where they hope to end up when it is indeed finally "done". To my mind The Mother of Parliaments seems to be setting itself up for more years of confusion and muddling through - but perhaps that is indeed its "strength". And at least for the rest of the EU anything that is finally agreed looks likely to be fairly raîdly passed by the Tory-majority government. But as you say: to what end we'll just have to wait and see.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 19:04

Priscilla and MM,

a picture that I just saw (from the geopolitical site from the French forum Passion Histoire)

Saluting the flag - Page 5 80107353_10163070068140085_7876499051930189824_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ohc=Nnd-pVHAf_4AQnRwdbXW_3LGWAVUpvolJ2fjxekWljV_0adX09dhxm-yQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fcdg1-1

Is the future for Labour?

Kind regards, Paul.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 19:13

As I saw it,MM, the Tories were upfront about their Brexit policy ie Leave. The Lib dems were likewise clear, Remain but Labour's policy was non committal so % arguments cannot be clear cut. The voting mandate seems clear enough indication of the public mood. People seem to have voted on a clear understanding of their make of it all. 

I recall the Liberals for many years screaming for proportional representation. As an ideal that sounds good but formulating it more difficult. It means voting for a party  and not candidates who, or so I assume, would be chosen by the party according to the vote. Have I got that all wrong?

I do recall tha %'s are dragged up by all losing main parties who lost out at elections in the past.Democracy as we apply it cannot please everyone...…… it is usually the disgruntled stance


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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 19:33

Surely it has always been thus, Paul. I was astounded when my daughter wrote from University that she had joined the Conservatives. Several letters later and the odd activities of this group gave way to the understanding that she could not spell Conservationists. Even Boris did no promise to clear the ditches of Yorkshire.... or perhaps he did. 

I met up with a school fellow for lunch - last seem 50 years ago he was very Labour at the time and socially deprived in many sense yet he and his four brothers, with no father's support all got very good degrees. I was astounded by his far right stance.... he said he had worked hard for what he had etc etc

This graph is not a wind of change indication, I suspect just a reflection of how it is as ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyTue 17 Dec 2019, 22:09

@Priscilla wrote:
Surely it has always been thus, Paul. I was astounded when my daughter wrote from University that she had joined the Conservatives. Several letters later and the odd activities of this group gave way to the understanding that she could not spell Conservationists. Even Boris did no promise to clear the ditches of Yorkshire.... or perhaps he did. 

I met up with a school fellow for lunch - last seem 50 years ago he was very Labour at the time and socially deprived in many sense yet he and his four brothers, with no father's support all got very good degrees. I was astounded by his far right stance.... he said he had worked hard for what he had etc etc

This graph is not a wind of change indication, I suspect just a reflection of how it is as ever.

Wise words, Priscilla.  I just checked a study from a university about the profile of the voter in the Flemish region of Belgium in the 2014 elections. For me the only serious conclusion was that the Green ones had a higher level of education, especially the women, against the rest. Between right and left in my opinion, no clear cut differences. And perhaps a particularity of the region, that there is no sizable rural area anymore and that it is nearly completely urban. So to compare regions or countries is perhaps difficult, as about urban to rural relationship? Perhaps for Turkey would that be relevant?

You said: "I was astounded by his far right stance.... he said he had worked hard for what he had etc etc"
That is a recurring story I heard overhere too. 
From the right leaning ones I heard the same: I have hard worked for what I own and there are too many, who can work and are offered work, who prefer to live from the solidarity of those who work. If it were only the people, who really needed it by accident or illness I would agree...and I forgot all those migrants, who want to profit from our solidarity system and don't want to work, because they have no skills and language difficulties...
From a lot of left leaning ones, who had to live nearly in basic circumstances I heard the same.
As the example I gave last Christmas about the lady I met in the cafetaria of the clinic my partner was in. She had worked from 14 on and with the man gone with another woman, she had to hire at 600 Euro a month, perhaps 700 with all the costs of electricity and gas. It was just enough to live and without a car...but in retirement she would only receive 900 Euro...She said to me: and those illegal immigrants they become pampered...the last is not true, but that is the impression from the "autochtones" in need...

Priscilla, how important is the immigration question in Britain? Is it that relevant as in the rest of Europe? (the last sentence, was a Brexit one Wink)

Kind regards from Paul.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 18 Dec 2019, 08:43

Quote :
I was astounded when my daughter wrote from University that she had joined the Conservatives. Several letters later and the odd activities of this group gave way to the understanding that she could not spell Conservationists. Even Boris did no promise to clear the ditches of Yorkshire.... or perhaps he did. 

In these dark and somewhat uncertain days, that gave me a real out-loud laugh - thankyou Priscilla.  Smile

And like Paul I was also struck by your comment, "I was astounded by his far right stance.... he said he had worked hard for what he had etc". There is also this element of 'pulling up the drawbridge once one personally has succeeded' in the anti-immigrant stance of several prominent Conservative MPs, who were themselves immigrants. 

Priti Patel (currently Home Secretary) was born in London to a Ugandan-Indian family: her paternal grandparents were from  Gujarat, India, who emigrated to Uganda; and then her parents emigrated to the UK. This was several years before President Idi Amin came to power, but I would imagine others of her family and friends were not so lucky and were subsequently forcibly expelled from Uganda in 1972, mostly to Britain. But she is now very vocal in denying others the same sanctuary, asylum and assistance the she and her family benefitted from. Likewise Sajid Javid (Chancellor of the Exchequor) is from a Pakistani family who emigrated to the UK, also in the 1960s. While his father worked as a bus driver, Javid has risen through banking to also now hold one of the highest offices of state. Yet at the same time he has been very vocal - in support of the Conservative line and his career - in trying to demonise immigrants especially those of the muslim faith ... which he, or at least his parents, originally professed to. Then there is Dominic Raab (Secretary of State in the Foreign office), the son of Jewish parents who fled as refugees to the UK from Czechoslovackia in 1938. He's another one that has been consistently prominent in vilifying immigrants and repeatedly trying to deny them their basic, legal, rights ....although let's face it, mentally he's as thick as a whale omelette.

I'm not saying that immigration does not need to be addressed - although for all their dog-whistle politics over the the past nine years, successive Conservative governments have singularly failed to use the legal powers available to them to do so - it's just the sheer callousness and hypocrisy of their attitude that amazes me. They seem to be smugly saying: "we made it but we are special, and we don't want anymore of our/their sort to benefit in the same way that we did". (And I say that as an immigrant myself).


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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 18 Dec 2019, 10:00

There are rogues of course who tell hopeful people in overseas lands that everything is wonderful here and there are loads of jobs in the UK which isn't exactly true at the moment and may get worse after Brexit (which I think will happen).  When I was in London (which is 9 years ago now) I helped in a very minor way in a local homeless shelter periodically and some of the people who ended up there were folks who had come to this country lured by empty promises and had sometimes paid for the trouble too.

I have long suspected that Boris Johnson's buffoonery was an act but the fact that he has lied in the past doesn't make me have much faith in him.  I hope his statecraft is better than I deem it to be. Some people I've talked to who voted Conservative said they knew he was a liar but they thought he could "get things done".  The Labour party was in turmoil of course so that helped the Conservatives to win I feel.

If things are going to get austere maybe I need to start looking out recipes from the Second World War and for examples of how people made do and mended then.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 18 Dec 2019, 14:32

I suspect your last sentence was largely in jest, LiR, but as I know you are vegetarian, adapting to a true 'wartime' rationed diet would probably cause you far, far fewer problems than for many others. However should you really want some inspiration from 70 years ago, there are these ... taken from the Ministry of Food: 'Good Food in Wartime' series of booklets:

Foods Past and Present - Wartime recipes from the Ministry of Food

That link opens with 'War Cookery Leaflet No. 12', about cheese - but scroll down for the links to other wartime government recipe leaflets, many of which were of necessity essentially meat-free. And in the wider terms of 'make do and mend', there are also links to the government pamphlets featuring 'Mrs Sew and Sew'. 

Saluting the flag - Page 5 Mrs-sew-and-sew

Bon apertit.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyThu 19 Dec 2019, 09:37

Only half in jest, MM.  I was very depressed last Friday.  I didn't burst into tears literally but I felt very "down".
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyThu 19 Dec 2019, 23:10

MM, thank you very much for your review about the immigration question. 

And yes, as overhere, if they just apply the existing rules to immigration, that would already solve a lot.
And yes overhere too, the former immigrants as the Italians and even Moroccans don't like the new arrivals as the Syrians, Afghans...it can be that even they vote for the moderate right, perhaps even the far right.

If I recall the WWII occupation, from my parents, uncle and grandmother, they said that it all turned around food. And for the rest reading books and going to the cinema as entertainment. There were three cinemas in the small town of that time (some 5,000 inhabitants).
But all in all I think that the Brexit will be better in food distribution than expected.

LiR, I hope you are a bit cheered up now...no local cinema in the surroundings?...with comforting friends...and a small café around the corner afterwards...OOPS, perhaps too much looking to my "own" personality...

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 31 Jan 2020, 12:57

Actually an old cinema has re-opened its doors in my hometown.  It's offering seats (all seats) at £5 a go at present.  Whether that offer is a "loss leader" and will go up in time I don't know.  It was offering some modern films last time I looked.  There is a de-luxe Odeon that opened last year which has many screens but it is costly though it does have more than one screen - it also offers films of opera etc.  I missed Dame Judy Dench in "The Winter's Tale" - that was broadcast to the small theatre in my hometown though.  The broadcast of that play (actually being produced in a London theatre) was on 19th January.

Getting back on point with the thread, "today's the day" as they say.  If I buy anything online I try to purchase from UK suppliers - and some Ebay UK suppliers ship free within UK borders.  If any of those suppliers purchase their materials from outside the UK of course prices could creep up (or even leap up?).  I'm thinking of how today's event will affect me personally of course - I hope I don't come across as selfish.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 31 Jan 2020, 19:08

LiR, thanks for your message about your very personal concerns about the "brexit".

As I think to recall that Temperance mentioned and I certainly, that a lot comes down to emotion and feelings (not rational ones) as symbols and the "national curriculum" (in French le roman national) most emerged in the 19th century, flags among others and even songs

As now the hour of "leaving" (although as MM said, it is just a beginning of "leaving") emotions between Brexiteers and Remainers go up the high stage...as today midnight England time...the contest for the first place...
https://slippedisc.com/2020/01/looks-like-andre-rieu-will-have-a-brexit-1/




And the opposite:
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20200130_04827976

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=f2zJ8vaB5jo&feature=emb_logo

The youtube copy from the journal don't work...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyFri 31 Jan 2020, 23:14

Well, that's it. We took careful aim at what we were told were our shackles, and fired. Probably blown our foot off. I hope the Bre*****ters are right, but I have seen absolutely zero evidence of that.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySat 01 Feb 2020, 11:59

@Green George wrote:
Well, that's it. We took careful aim at what we were told were our shackles, and fired. Probably blown our foot off. I hope the Bre*****ters are right, but I have seen absolutely zero evidence of that.

Gilgamesh,

thank you for your message. As usual short and powerful.
As I understand it, while I didn't immediately saw where "what we were told were our shackles" comes from
https://genius.com/Patrick-park-life-is-a-song-lyrics



Yes I agree and perhaps with all that turmoil about the "Brexit" it is perhaps a "godsgeschenk" (godsend) for the more emotional unity of the remaining Europe...Emotional unity which can end in more practical unity... The old adage of a common ennemy?

And as I mentioned the "emotional" by Temperance and certainly by me...perhaps now that European Anthem will now spark some emotion between the remaining peace of Europe, sadly for me perhaps against England. Sadly as for me a Belgian, who today saw the ultimate appointment by the king of Belgium of a negociator to seek for a compromise between the right wing Flemish region and the left wing Brussels/Walloon regions. Otherwise it will be new elections after more than one year negociations and perhaps the end of Belgium...

As I said by me and perhaps by Temperance too: emotion...no ratio...
I didn't know that there were own lyrics to the European anthem, but by all that Nigel Farage "vlaggen zwaaien" (flag waving?) in the European parliament...

http://www.andrerieutranslations.com/Lyrics/Ode-to-Joy.html

The Shiller/Beethoven version in German is: Alle Menschen werden Brüder (All the humans become brothers) and the English translation title is Ode to joy...

And in the European anthem it is and will bring perhaps at the end tears in the eyes of the listeners...as I said emotion...



Kind regards from Paul.

PS: And glad to see you once again on this board, Gilgamesh.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySat 01 Feb 2020, 18:06

@PaulRyckier wrote:
As now the hour of "leaving" (although as MM said, it is just a beginning of "leaving") emotions between Brexiteers and Remainers go up the high stage...as today midnight England time...the contest for the first place...


Kind regards from Paul.


I generally prefer the more traditional renderings of 'Ode to Joy' or 'Ode an die Freude', but I'll freely admit that your posted one (ie Rieu's) was an impressive performance and an absolute joy to listen to ... (where was it, Vienna perhaps?).

I'm always impressed at how many ordinary people actually know all the words too, and so they are able to joyfully sing along ... and I've often observed that to be so, not just in German-speaking countries, but elsewhere around the world. I have sung it, in German, in a school concert when I'd have been about 14 - and later I've performed it as part of an orchestra (I played trumpet) accompanying a full choir with professional soloists ... but sadly I still really struggle to remember the words. However the events of yesterday have prompted me to look up the original words ... if for no other reason that, should I ever be surprised, I can at least sing along too. Such as with this wonderful 'flashmob' performance in front of Nurnberg cathedral:

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySat 01 Feb 2020, 19:29

MM, thank you so much for sharing this with us. If one speaks of "emotional" that's emotional...

You said:
"I generally prefer the more traditional renderings of 'Ode to Joy' or 'Ode an die Freude', but I'll freely admit that your posted one (ie Rieu's) was an impressive performance and an absolute joy to listen to ... (where was it, Vienna perhaps?)."


Yes I said: "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" but of course you are right (and I hear you performed it two times in your life) and indeed it is "An die Freude". I thank you for that as I in my ignorance was on the wrong foot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Joy




Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySat 01 Feb 2020, 21:01

Spent the day at the West Midlands Green Party Winter Conference. We finished by singing the Billy Bragg words to the "Ode to Joy" led by our recent ex-MEP. We wre offered a choice of that or Auld Lang Syne. Personally I prefer this to the latter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYzblJ_MDeM
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 13:48

Little known fact but they had cameras at his first ever performance of the ditty ...

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 18:04

The Discworld book Soul Music mentioned that most composers have gone deaf by the time they die, this being the gods' idea of a joke. The joke is on the gods, of course. Deafness doesn't prevent a true composer from hearing the music; it prevents them from hearing the distractions.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 19:00

Thank you Nordmann. It is (c'est) "magnifique" (magnificent? splendid?). Perhaps not a highlight as film
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copying_Beethoven
but this particular sequence is nearly as one of best of the first Phantasia Disney film. Really an unbelievable  blend of sound, movement and pictures...in my very personal humble opinion...

Thanks again and kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 19:10

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptySun 16 Feb 2020, 22:17

Will Bojo now curtail the BBC?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/feb/16/no-10-launches-attack-on-bbc-as-licence-fee-comes-under-threat

As in Belgium the forming of a new federal government is in turmoil, I hope that never ever the Far right Flemish Nationalists will come to power to form an independent Flemish state, as in the time you could perhaps be obliged to salute the Flemish flag...

Saluting the flag - Page 5 Flemish_Flag_%288611811632%29

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 01 Apr 2020, 11:19

I wonder if the Covid-19 crisis will impact the finer details of the UK leaving the EU.  I know technically the UK has left but as was pointed out upthread there is still some organising to go on and I can imagine it's possible things take longer.  I know conferences can take place by Skype/Zoom or similar applications but if some of the members of both the UK Parliament and the EU Parliament and the administrative staffs of both have to social distance or maybe have to take time off for illness will it affect how smoothly (or not) the nuts and bolts of leaving the EU takes place.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 01 Apr 2020, 12:13

Ah but Bozo got elected by promising to "get Brexit done" and can't really claim to have done that till the transition period is over. The lack of resources to negotiate a deal in time could just be the opportunity that Rees-Smogg and its adherents have been waiting for to secure a hard Brexit.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 01 Apr 2020, 13:37

@Green George wrote:
Ah but Bozo got elected by promising to "get Brexit done" and can't really claim to have done that till the transition period is over. The lack of resources to negotiate a deal in time could just be the opportunity that Rees-Smogg and its adherents have been waiting for to secure a hard Brexit.
 
GG, will the lack of time to negociate not be used by the EU too to look for a compromise on a kind of adapted transition period?

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 01 Apr 2020, 17:32

Probably, Paul, but there's a significant euroseptic group in the Tory party who are looking for a means of going to WTA rules rather than a deal. They'd be demanding you wash your mouth out with soap for using the "c" word.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 5 EmptyWed 01 Apr 2020, 19:10

@Green George wrote:
Probably, Paul, but there's a significant euroseptic group in the Tory party who are looking for a means of going to WTA rules rather than a deal. They'd be demanding you wash your mouth out with soap for using the "c" word.

GG, thanks for the suppositions.  Of course you, better than me, know what there "plays" there at "your" side of "our" Channel...

Kind regards from Paul.
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