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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 28 May 2019, 23:36

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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 29 May 2019, 12:26

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
The Brexit party won where I live.  It didn't get my vote - mind you, this sort of vote is a protest vote really.  In a general election people would probably go back to voting Conservative if they didn't want Labour to get in or Labour if they didn't want Conservative to get in.

Dear LadyinRetirement and other British users,
I take profit of a short break to tell you that there is something about  the Brexit that I have difficulty understanding.

What I have a lot of difficulty understanding is how anti-Brexiters can be knocked out when they seem to be in the majority in the last elections and you seem to accept the Brexiters' perspective on this European election when you could try to impose yours.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/remain-hard-brexit-what-uk-european-election-results-tell-us

It seems that you are submitting to the will of a party as if it had won the parliamentary elections and was governing your parliament.
It's something I don't understand at all.
In your country, can a party with 35% of the vote impose its will on the 65% of voters who did not vote for it under the pretext that it came first?
Could a Briton be kind enough to explain to me this deep mystery, among others, of the Britishness?
Kind regards,
Abelard
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 29 May 2019, 19:09

Dear Abelard,

perhaps Dirk, Dutch born but residing now in the North of England, or MM British born residing in the South of France,  and of course GG, LiR, Vizzer, Temperance, Priscilla can much better answer than I the Belgian from outside.
But as I still think with what I know from the news sites, my British encounters and 17 years discussions on British fora and analogues, that they as I said don't differ that much in this particular question from the other Europeans and indeed from the Americans of Trump affiliation, or have I have to say Steve Bannon...

Perhaps, I ask the Brits, they use also the tradtional church and their historical links to the greatness of the UK in the world?
I wish Temperance was here again...
In any case in France there seems still a groundswell of traditional Christians linked to the far-right.
In a discussion on the Forum Geopolitique of Passion Histoire I lately discovered that link and that is my last message, while nobody seems to want to go further in the discusion:
http://geopolitique.passion-histoire.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1218&sid=75d38303cfeb1e18de845c4e7cda67e8&start=110
And I added some material from this site in English to my reply
"And see I read today in a critical magazine about the links with:
https://www.apache.be/2018/03/08/een-sc ... -586738160
A school which is homesick to the Third Reich
Neonazi’s, antisemieten en geradicaliseerde geestelijken vinden elkaar in het Oude Klooster Maleizen (Overijse). Dat biedt onderdak aan een fundamentalistische school en herbergt een extreemrechts, ultra katholiek netwerk.
Neonazis, antisemites and radicalized ecclesiastics meet each other in the Old Convent Maleizen (Overijse). It accomodate a fundamentalistic school and is the seat of an ultraright, ultracatholic web
Neonazis, antisemites et des écclésiastiques radicalisés se se rencontrent dans le Vieux Couvent Maleizen (Overijse). Il héberge une école fundamentaliste et est le centre d'une réseau extrème droite et ultra catholique.
J'ajoute dans un des artilces en néerlandais qu'on pointe vers la différence dans l'église belge entre les ultra catholiques et les éveques (dans mes yeux) vrais catholiques de Gand et de Bruges"

Abelard, have to stop, as promised the help is there to fix my computer...µ

Kind regards from Paul.
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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 29 May 2019, 21:06

Dear Paul,
Thank you for your information about Orban.
Even if the link posted in my message was actually quite nuanced in submitting also the idea that the Hungarian party Fidesz was a liberal party of eastern European anti-immigration but not extreme right-wing, Orban's recent statement and the information you posted to me clearly shows that it is a populist party close to the British Brexit Party, the Italian Liga and the French RN.

As far as the RN score in France is concerned, the media underline that it is in fact a maintenance and nothing more or a symbolic prestige victory if you prefer.
The RN does not do better than in the last European elections of 2014, it has one seat less and the gap with its immediate challenger is only 0.9% whereas it was 4% 4 years ago.
The RN is usually considered a worrying part of the political landscape but not a party capable of taking power,despite some vehement statements from Marine Le Pen that don't impress much.
The French media rather highlights the rise of centrists who almost tripled their score compared to the last elections of 2014 and the rise of greens which also increased significantly.
They also mention the collapse of the right and left.
The EU is considered rather strengthened by these elections because of the high turnout.

For those interested, here is a video commenting on the results in France and Europe.
It seems to me to present a balanced political point of view and the machine translation into English is quite good.


I look forward to the messages from the British in this forum on the outcome of the Brexiters in these European elections.

Kind regards,
Abelard
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 29 May 2019, 22:43

Dear Abelard, sorry but I have a lot of trouble to have my mailbox back. It is still on "explorer" but on "chrome" they ask to make a new account and I have to have another contact, but I have no other e-mail account...will ask the neighbour again how that can be solved. In the meantime lost a lot of time that I could use overhere. Have still a lot to say where I halted my message and ask the British for their opinion too.
Saw your link and want to comment that too.
And if Tim reads this, I owe a reply to him too.

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Edit 'shall we say' not 'shall be say'   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 30 May 2019, 10:35

Abelard, I'm not sure I can answer your question about why the Brexit party did relatively well in the recent polls.  There is a section of the British population that has the right to vote but are too apathetic to do so.  A lady I know had not exactly an argument but shall we say an animated discussion with her son when he averred that the senior part of the population were to blame for "Leave" faction winning rather than the "Remain" faction in the 2016 referendum on whether the UK should stay in the EU.  The lady told her son that the reason "Leave" won then was because some of the population took it for granted that it would be a walkover for "Remain" and were too idle to vote.

If I am surmising, it is possible that people voted for the Brexit party as a protest vote because they find the current state of the two major political parties (Conservative and Labour) abhorrent.  Then the people who voted "Leave" before do at least seem to bestir themselves to go out and vote so they may have voted for the Brext party because they are annoyed that there have been moves afoot to try and nullify the 2016 vote.  The Brexit party didn't get my vote - the vote is secret for a reason but the party I voted for may have something in common with George or Gilgamesh's new name.


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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 30 May 2019, 12:02

@Abelard wrote:
In your country, can a party with 35% of the vote impose its will on the 65% of voters who did not vote for it under the pretext that it came first?
Could a Briton be kind enough to explain to me this deep mystery, among others, of the Britishness?
Kind regards,
Abelard

It's no longer really 'my country' as I no longer have a vote, nor do I currently live there, but as no-one else has yet picked up the baton, I'll answer, for what it's worth:

Yes ... but only up to a point. The current Conservative Party only got 34% of the overall vote at the last General Election in 2017, and they have continued to 'govern' (I use the term somewhat guardedly) ever since, although they had to bribe - sorry promise investment of a few billion pounds in Northern Ireland to secure the support of the DUP - in order to get enough votes in Parliament to get any legislation passed. Even now - after the resignation of the Prime Minister, with all cabinet ministers fighting amongst themselves like rats in a sack, and after their abyssmal showing in the European Elections - the Conservative Party are still the party of government. Not only that but with May's departure they are actually in the process of deciding, amongst themselves, who will become the next Prime Minister (and all that entails: finger on the nuclear button etc.). 

(Her Majesty's 'Loyal Opposition', the Labour Party, could table a Parliamentary vote of no-confidence in the Conservative administration - but they too are so deeply split over brexit that they might not even win that vote, let alone be able to form a stable government themselves - or there again, maybe, and quite understandably, they just don't want to inherit the current pile of steaming manure that is brexit).

And so, just to reiterate the point, the decision of who will become PM is a matter for the Conservative Party alone, no-one else ... so that's the 160,000 paid up party members, ie about 0.003% of the UK population - and while I don't like playing the old-against-young card, particularly as I'm no spring chicken myself - all the evidence suggests that the current mean average age of the Conservative Party is 57 or more, that more than half of its members are aged over 55, and that about a third are over 65 (the exact figures are unknown as the party refuses to publish the information). As its name rather suggests, it's not a particularly youthful, future-looking party. Also note the supreme irony that, just days after an equal Europe-wide plebisite, many of the top Tory candidates currently fighting each other up the slippery-pole, still continue to call the EU an "unelected dictatorship".

But back to your question, Abelard, ... it's basically because the UK doesn't have a form of proportional representation, other than during EU elections when the d'Hondt system applies (with some typical UK opt-out modifications such as in Northern Ireland). The British system is not used in any other European country although I think it is still in operation in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It is often, albeit somewhat missleadingly, referred to as the First-Past-the-Post, or FPTP, system. In short by this system, within each electoral district it is a simple matter of which candidate gets more votes than any single other. So if for example you have, within an electoral district, three parties all doing as good, or bad, as each other such that the each are on about 33% of the vote ... the one that gets 34%, perhaps by just a handfull of votes, wins out-right and so gets to send that party's candidate to Parliament. Multiply that across all districts in the country and you can easily see that a party may have the majority of members in Parliament, but with most of the population having actively voted for someone else. (The referendum was conducted in the same way: a simple majority with no requirement for a minimum turn-out for the vote to be accepted - and that to potentially over-turn decades of UK foreign policy and internationally-accepted trade, treaty, finance, security, infrastructure, legal-procedure, citizens rights, and other legally binding agreements). However to actually get anything done, to pass legislation in Parliament etc, a minority government will almost certainly have to do deals with other political parties or independent MPs, just to get enough MPs 'on their side' to get the required majority votes in Parliament if they are to get any legislation passed.

This has been the situation in Britain for a very long time: it is thought to favour "strong, decisive" government, rather than the supposedly "weak coalition" governments that run, say, the Netherlands or Germany (err ... they ain't dong so bad!). As a system it tends to result in alternate Labour (centre left) and Conservative (centre right) governments, and generally keeps all other parties excluded. Not surprisingly the two main parties, Labour and Conservative, have always been against any Parliamentary reform that would introduce proportional representation. The Liberal-Democrat Party (fairly centralist - nothing extreme either way), whilst they were a significant force during the 19th century (originally as the 'Whigs', the later evolved into the 'Liberals') they have never gained enough seats to form a government since 1915 (under PM Lloyd George they were the government in power at outbreak of WW1; were replaced by a war-time coalition government; but thereafter failed to gain sufficient support again). Acccordingly they have been in favour of parliamentary reform for proportional representation for many decades. In 2011 there was a referendum to possibly replace the current system with one based on proprtional representation but under lobbying from the two main parties this was rejected.

But now with Brexit, perhaps people are finally seeing how completely unfit the UK's system is. For the past three years a single 'minority' party has been pushing its agenda on this issue - and an agenda that they themselves do not agree over - with no attempt to find a wider concensus of what the majority of people want, or think is important, or will accept, or will utterly reject. Moreover they have known all along that in Britain it is Parliament that is Sovereign. This is important because in Britain Parliament, not the people, is Sovereign: thus MPs are representatives of the people, not delegates, and so they are honour bound to do what they think is right for the country as a whole and not necessarily just to follow the views of their own constituents. MPs are suposed to serve the best interests of all, to try and enact the wishes of those that did vote but also to protect the interestes of those that did not or could not, vote. 

So ultimately, whatever the party games in Parliament, any international deals, treaties, agreements, unilateral actions etc, such as major trade agreements with the EU, or the USA, or China, or indeed the Vatican, Nepal or Fiji, ... including 'brexit', whatever that term actually means ... will have to be ratified by Parliament. Following a narrow 52%-48% referendum split in 2016; the Conservative's loss of seats in the 2017 General Election; and now the European Elections - the results of which, however anyone tries to spin them, show the UK as still bitterly split on the issue - the government still have absolutely no clear mandate for any sort of Brexit at all. 

Britain is in existential crisis - there's no concensus of what people (realistically) want not where they would like to go - not even, so it now seems, what it is to be 'British'. Are the brexiters really prepared to lose Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in pursuit of their WTO hard-Brexit aims ... but then it's not really their decision anyway, is it?  A lot of the blame for all the malaise in society can surely be laid at the feet of Parliament - and I mean the whole system not just the current government's policies of austerity, xenophobia, help the rich but penalise the poor and disabled etc, ... but rather the whole traditional, antiquated, parliamentary processes: no constitution; no proportional representation; an inherited thoeocratic head of state, unelected lords and bishops (but Anglican only); no perceived need to engage with the local electorate; combatative rather than consultative party politics; party before country; indeed individual MPs blatantly promoting their own interests rather than those of the rest of society, little accountability, hypocrasy, and blatent lies, whether to Parliament or to the electorate - all are now just treated as "political stunts" (that's Boris Johnson's current excuse for lying) ... while a biased media under the control of big business, and foreign-government meddling, while both proven, are somehow just ignored, "cos it woz, like, democracy and da will of the people, innit." 

Perhaps, though, things are now changing ... the old two-party system has had its complacency thoroughly shaken up by the European Elections, and some unlikely bed-fellows have emerged that are not along traditional party lines, such as conservative big businesses allying themselves with the Greens in wanting to defeat Brexit. And although Farage's Breixt party (it's actually a private company with only one controlling member - himself) wants to forge a strong right-wing aliance with parties in France, Germany and Italy, none of them actually want to leave the EU; they want to change it to their viewpoint, but not actually leave. This is somewhat ironic seeing that, brexit, ie leaving, is the only policy Farage's group has. At the same time he, as an MEP, is hypocritically still happily picking up his, not inconsiderable, salary and pension. Part of me actually would quite like like to see Farage win a Parliamentary seat - he's tried seven times, I think, but has always been defeated - just so that for once he has to own and take personal responsibility for his lies, boasts and false promises - rather than just sniping from the sidelines. And then maybe, finally, he'd be revealed as the chancer, liar, and manipulative spiv that he truely is.


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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 30 May 2019, 20:41

Dear LadyinRetirement and Meles meles,
Thank you very much for your informative and comprehensive posts.
Now I've "understood everything", "everything is clear"...um, uh, cough, cough, cough.
Saluting the flag - Page 2 Forced-windows-10-upgrade-starts-during-gaming-live-stream-with-120k-viewers-503728-2

Just one last question, and then I won't bother you anymore.
I would like to know which higher authority controls the respect of the British constitution by political parties?
Kind regards,
Abelard,
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 30 May 2019, 21:18

Ah well, umm, cough splutter ... there is actually no 'British Constitution' as such ... and so the basis of law in Britain relies mostly on 'precedent' (ie what was agreed previously) and so it is a mix and a muddle of ancient, and often conflicting, documents, legal rulings, and customs. 

Magna Carta is often quoted as a foundation of British law but actually it was all about balancing the kings power against that of the nobles (it says nothing about the common man, the 90% of the population). The only bit of Magna Carta that is still relevant in law is the guaranteed independence of the Church from the State - which is itself fairly meaningless as after Henry VIII the head of state, ie the king, was the head of the church too. Even the much acclaimed Bill of Rights (1689) is not 'entrenched' in UK law as it is a normal statute law, and so as such can be modified or repealed by the legislature at will. 

In my opinion that is partly why the UK has got itself into such a bind over brexit ... it has no formal constitution and hence no formal means of changing - in the absence of a constitution - its fundamental policy and raison d'être (and before anyone says it, I don't mean that one cannot change things but rather that there should be a formal way to do so, and without contradicting or compromising other fundamental issues (such as, for example "all citizens shall be represented in government" but I have a UK passport but I was denied a vote in the 2016 referendum). We have discussed 'constitutions' here before and I know some contibuters to his site think that Britain's laissez-faire, make-it-up-as-you-go, we'll just muddle through, dodge-and-dive ... approach, is a positive strength, but I remain to be convinced. 

That's a quick response .... I'll cogitate and come back.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 30 May 2019, 23:50

Meles meles, Abelard and Lady in retirement,

MM thank you very much for your extended review of the British system.
More than one hour and a half to learn to work with Google Chrome and up to now I can go out my post a reply and return as I here do after seeking and copying something in google. The neighbour's daughter, which installed it all, spoke to make a new "tab page" "window" but it doesn"t work because I probalby do it wrong. Tomorrow I will ask her again. In the meantime started just again on the old "explorer"...

MM, as said you described, very well how the "system" worked and will explain now th "constitution" question (we have already a thread about it (perhaps in the other Brexit thread)).

But as I started already in former messages, you have perhaps as LiR mentioned, real Brexiteers, perhaps nostalgy for  the Empire from the olden days, some "fundamentalist" old christian values, as I mentioned about the thread from the French site mentioned above, the same in Belgium in the old convent of Maleizen in Overijse. I wonder and I wished that Temperance were here again, if the "Christians" she mentioned, looking to their dogmatic texts and lacking the Christian feelings of emphaty and love, weren't such ones as the French and Belgians I mentioned and linked perhaps also to the far right Brexiteers?

But as I mentioned it already, perhaps one as to ask, and again that is common for the whole of Europe and common for all the right wing of Europe, perhaps less in the latest polls of the Netherlands, the municipals and the European ones (Dirk?) the question:
Why is it that above all the "normal" right wing stuff, there is from the "common man in the street" that much dissatisfaction about the system and the traditional (at least on the continent) parties, the Christian-Democrats, the Liberals and the Socialists? (perhaps for France an equivalent for the Christian-Democrats?)

This afternoon in Ostend speaking to a "common man" living on the border of a nearly "muslim" quarter (ghettho?); it becomes time that they make tabula rasa with their mosques (some three? and no minarets) and their special "customs", they have to behave on street as we...And these people come from the border of Brussels, were they say it is worser and where they fled from...
And I read today that even some "old settled" muslims, who had made it here, (I don't know how they knew it from the polls?) have also voted for the far right against the new "migrants" from the Middle East and Africa.

Already heard in short time two women that I met, who said that they had to work all day long, especially to earn enough to have an appartment, while those "so-called" "asile seekers", but in reality "migrants" in their eyes, receive an appartment from the "government"...

Isn't this dissatisfaction and the frightening of "real" or "supposed" dangers, the "red thread" now in the whole of Europe, the US, (Australia?) Caro? (although New Zealand? seems to not be Australia? Caro?) and yes the UK too?

I was now more than 45 years ago in one of the factories of our group in England, above London. In the factory, they worked with Pakistani (bl...Pakistani) It was each time a "team" led by a "fore master?", a Pakistani leader of the group. there was a small accident and I went down with the guy together with the "master" to the cleaning rooms to look how bad it was. In that time I wasn't that clever as I guess MM was in his time. And I had to know that that was "not done"...when I returned home, I heard not directly, but via hear say, that there had been a complaint from London about me. And it hampered me a lot of time to grow (also in money) in my career...
I wonder if it is after fifty years any better?

I don't remember Temperance's term, but I have a bit to "breed" about all the new information, before I can elaborate a more equllibrated and coherent answer about this information.

Kind regards to everybody from Paul.
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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 06:16

@Meles meles wrote:
Ah well, umm, cough splutter ... there is actually no 'British Constitution' as such ... and so the basis of law in Britain relies mostly on 'precedent' (ie what was agreed previously) and so it is a mix and a muddle of ancient, and often conflicting, documents, legal rulings, and customs.
??????
Saluting the flag - Page 2 Koala-bear-is-astonished
??????

Thank you again for this additional information on this very rare political system.
wikipedia. Constitution
wiki wrote:
As of 2017 only two sovereign states, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, have wholly uncodified constitutions.
Kind regards,
Abelard
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 08:33

While it is technically correct to say that New Zealand does not have a single codified constitution in the traditional sense, there is still a world of difference between what it actually has and what Britain refers to as its own "unwritten constitution". For much of its early existence NZ closely mirrored the UK in matters of constitutionality, but since the 1970s the country has spent considerable effort in passing parliamentary Acts which, when taken as a constitutional framework for further legislation, together function almost identically to any series of clauses in most standard written constitutions.

The principal Acts that play this role have been (details copied from the NZ government website):

The Constitution Act 1986 is a key formal statement of New Zealand's system of government, in particular the executive, legislature and the judiciary. The Act recognises the Queen as the Head of State of New Zealand and the Governor-General as her representative.

Other laws that outline the powers and functions of the three branches of government in more detail include the State Sector Act 1988, the Electoral Act 1993, the Judicature Act 1908 and the Supreme Court Act 2003.

Other important legislation includes the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, Ombudsmen Act 1975, the Official Information Act 1982, the Public Finance Act 1989, the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, the Human Rights Act 1993.

Some British laws, such as parts of Magna Carta 1297 and The Bill of Rights 1688, and the Act of Settlement 1701 and the Royal Marriages Act 1772, have been incorporated into New Zealand law by the Imperial Laws Application Act 1988.


The Treaty of Waitangi is probably the most important element of all these - despite some failed attempts to incorporate it into the Bill of Rights in the 1990s it remains, very largely at Maori insistence, an independent definition of sovereignty and common rights which, in another more conventional constitution, tends to appear before any clauses and through which the ethos governing all subsequent clauses must be legally interpreted and to which they must conform. Most crucial of all in terms of comparison with the UK is that the Treaty of Waitangi confers the notion of the state's sovereignty, at least to some extent, on its constituent citizens. So, while the UK monarch retains her position of "head of state", it is a head without any provision for over-ruling the other essential components of the state as defined within the other Acts, and most fundamentally of all, is head of a state parliament which does not exercise sovereignty on its monarch's behalf but, at least in some crucial ways as Waitangi secures, embodies a sovereignty derived also from the people it represents as a whole.

While it is by no means a perfect arrangement when compared to more legally compact constitutional devices, it does allow New Zealanders an advantage over their UK counterparts in that it has at least helped the country evolve a legal structure around referendums, and what role referendums can play in a country without a written constitution per se. In fact compared to some other more traditionally constitutional states NZ has evolved in fact two distinct referendum processes and now emulates some of the most democratically constitution-bound societies currently defined in terms of granularity of responsibility for expression of a sovereignty invested fundamentally in the people themselves. It could do this because, by definition with no constitutional clauses to amend (and therefore no automatic implication of fundamental changes to standard law), referendums - unless specifically dictated by their architects to be otherwise - will always tend to be non-binding. This allows two avenues by which they can be formulated, one conventionally parliamentary in origin and one through what are called CIRs (citizens initiated referendums), which are effectively triggered based on petition subscriptions.

This is a very important point of comparison with the UK. a country which has absolutely no conventional manner of formulating referendums whatsoever, let alone a constitutional method, and nothing beyond the whim of the government of the day then dictating whether or not any referendum, even atrociously badly worded ones like the Brexit referendum, will be deemed "binding" or not. Under the NZ system, such an obviously "populist" originated political policy, would almost definitely have come to a point of national referendum on the issue (if it even survived the petition phase) via the CIR route, and its result would then almost certainly have been regarded throughout the process as in no way binding whatsoever. The folly of making a policy decision binding before its manner of execution and potential effects had been ascertained would have been addressed (and nullified) by the process itself, even if it had actually reached the point of referendum and even if the proposition had received a majority.

None of this of course is better than a sovereignty explicitly invested in the citizens, and lawmakers constrained within a framework designed to respect that sovereignty, all of which a written constitution is normally designed to guarantee in so far as political guarantees can extend within any well run society. However, despite the obvious flaws in the NZ system as things stand, it is still a considerably safer and more intelligent framework in which to operate politically than what, in recent years, has now been shown up in the UK as the extreme danger of attempting to accommodate populist stupidity within a citizenship denied a stake in their own sovereignty, a system which has traditionally worked principally in the interests of a ruling elite within that country and which has been intentionally perpetuated therefore by that elite - one principal manner of achieving this being an outright refusal to adopt any measure that further democratises those citizens to the point where they can in fact exercise sovereignty through plebiscite, be it refusal to codify law or respect that law's "constitutionality" except when it suits that elite, or by committed opposition to adoption of a voting system designed to convert parliament from a delegatory to an actual representative function.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 09:34

I know nordmann believes the UK constitution has its limitations.  I wonder if the present state of the UK Parliament will spur a reform of some sort in British politics.  I know has already been an attempt to challenge the Brexit referendum in the courts.  Now (and this is LiR's opinion and not an established fact) I feel that when the Brexit referendum took place none of the people who were in a position to consider the possible ramifications really thought that the "Leave" vote would be successful.  David Cameron didn't stay to see things through and Theresa May, whatever her faults, had a very unpleasant, poisoned chalice to pick up.  I see that nordmann believes that the New Zealand system would have avoided that "The folly of making a policy decision binding before its manner of execution and potential effects had been ascertained would have been addressed (and nullified) by the process itself, even if it had actually reached the point of referendum and even if the proposition had received a majority".
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 09:54

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I know nordmann believes the UK constitution has its limitations.

No, LiR, that is not my belief, and in fact mere belief does not come into it, just as "limitations" hardly expresses the collection of crimes against its own citizens that the current UK "non constitution" facilitates. What I know, from what I see, is that only pretending to have a constitution is a recipe for disaster, and that the scale of this disaster is determined only by the extent to which unscrupulous agents duplicitously exploit the vulnerabilities of citizens disenfranchised, by the very same pretence, in the crucial role of expressing the sovereignty their so-called "representatives" claim to protect and serve on their "behalf".

What compounds these crimes, of course, is a citizenship not only disenfranchised in such a crucial respect, but one also intentionally groomed to accept this restriction on its function and value, and which will therefore even defend this impotence (and consequential ignorance) inflicted on it for no better reason than to perpetuate a critically undemocratic division of power and ownership of wealth that underpins the body politic in which they exist - as subjects, not citizens.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 12:06

Oh, my mistake, one shouldn't assume one has knowledge of what goes on in another person's mind, so sorry is I made an incorrect assumption about nordmann.

When I was a child I swallowed the line that the monarchy was good for us.  Now, I don't think members of the British royal family are automatically evil - I know the goldfish bowl existence would not suit me but I think the money they have helps sweeten the pill.  I've had disagreements with people in real life over the years - i.e. those who say "They work very hard" - re: the royal family - well don't most of us.  I have sometimes wondered if all the "hard" work was/is necessary work.  Then again, some people get a fillip if they are in hospital and a member of the royal family (British royal family) visits.  I think there are less people now who blindly worship the royal family just because they are there - some people have changed their opinions because they thought the late Princess Diana was hard done by.

Well, whether parliamentary/political reform comes about in the wake of Brexit will be interesting to find out.
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PostSubject: An   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 31 May 2019, 23:40

Abelard, Meles meles and Dirk,

as you mentioned about the European polls, there is no immediate danger for a European take over of the right wing parties, even if they can stick together.
But as I mentioned about Belgium about its national polls, if the traditional parties stick together they haven't yet a majority anymore and they have to seek for a partner or the more soft Flemish nationalist party or the Greens...I mentioned it to Dirk, it is not yet that far in the Netherlands, but they haven't only had a provincial? elections in october (I had the link yesterday, but could put him overhere. If Dirk likes a discussion on The Netherlands in the European and Brexit context?) and not yet national ones. In the European polls the far right was not that high, but steady growing if I recall it well.
Dirk pointed to this link:
https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAC5OvN?m=en-gb&ocid=News
And yes I mentioned it already in this thread about the joke: that the "nationalist" parties wanted to go "international", but in fact it is not a joke, as they want to make alliances for their nationalist far right parties, as the others do for their party "families". I still call them: religious/humanist democracies, liberals (some specificities in France I agree Abelard, but will they not be downgraded in the future?) and the Socialists. The Communists have also again a come back. (The Thirties: The middle also weakening and the extremes gaining)
OOPS and I forgot about Nigel Farage from Dirk's link. I said before in this thread that Salvini tried to form a coalition of the far right but that Le Pen seemingly wanted to form a second coalition, but now they seem to become closer together, but who will be the Leader? And will Nigel now to hold the UK in the EU as he has to play a role in the European Far-Right Wink ...perhaps he can take the French citizenship to join Le Pen and try to "make Europe great again"?

Being sarcastic is perhaps a kind of self defence, but "alle gekheid op 'n stokje" say our Dutch neighbours (Dirk can you make an equivalent in English?) the Far-Right is steadely gaining in Europe and if the traditional parties don't find a resaonable solution to parry the troubles that the average citizen of Europe worries about, I think these dangerous parties will steadely gain in Europe and if they succeed to stick together and to form a big European Far-Right party they will be even more dangerous.

If the North of Belgium is an example for other countries...The poll prognoses haven't detected the big gain of the Right wing (as the gain of the Left in The Netherlands) I suppose because most people, when asked in a pre-poll don't mention their meanings as more extreme pointed by the general voter. It is only in the dark of the voting booth that they say what they really think, via their vote on the paper or on the computer...

I read today in the paper about a poll: for the far right it were most the young "secondary" (baccalaureat) males who voted for them and for the greens it were the higher study females...

And if you hear the reactions everywhere, the "Wir schaffen es" from Angela Kasner was in the beginning not the right approach?

Kind regards from Paul
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySat 01 Jun 2019, 00:37

alle gekheid op 'n stokje - nearest English equivalent I can come up with is "joking aside" or perhaps (but less common) "all joking aside"
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySat 01 Jun 2019, 06:45

Paul,

about your :

"but "alle gekheid op 'n stokje" say our Dutch neighbours (Dirk can you make an equivalent in English?)"


George has given the right English version ( a 10A and a apple George).


But to carry on with the topic under discussion, the movements and attempts of the Nationalist and right groups in Europe to form some kind of coalition/alliance  and then continue to do so in the European Parliament can only lead to big problems and troubles.

Are we looking at the total breakup of the European Union over the next decade or two?

Yes, as you mentioned in your previous topic a few months ago, are we going back to the 1930's.


Interesting times ahead.


Dirk
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySat 01 Jun 2019, 11:04

Dirk, one lady I know voted to "Leave" in the 2016 British EU membership referendum because she thinks it will implode, though most of the people in my acquaintanceship (I know I've said before) in my age bracket who I've discussed the subject with have voted "Remain".  I prefer internationalism to isolation.  Most people living in the UK now were born after the UK ceased to have an Empire so obviously we don't get raw materials from "colonies" anymore.

I read something recently about a machine being invented to pick raspberries.  Fruit picking was a seasonal (though not particularly well paid job) that people could sometimes do when fruit was ripe, though of recent years a lot of the people working in the UK fruit harvest have been from eastern Europe.

There's always been an ultra right wing faction in the UK. When I was younger they were headed up by the late Oswald Moseley.  One thing, Tommy Robinson who is one of the cluster of ultra right wing known names in the UK at present, was a candidate in the recent British EU Parliament elections and didn't do very well.

The UK's relationship with the EU (or the EEC or "Common Market" as it used to be known) has always been strange.  When the EEC first started Britain did not want to participate (or at least its political representatives didn't), then it wanted to join and eventually did so in 1973 after a couple of knock-backs, there was a referendum in the UK back in 1975 about belonging to the EU/EEC and on that occasion the "Remain" vote won the day.  Fast forward to 2016 - well we all know what happened then.

In continental Europe do you have any people spouting the "freeman on the land/sovereign citizen" rubbish?  As far as I can tell it's an idea which came from the USA - in the UK there are some people who appear to be of the view that they can change British government by invoking the Magna Carta (they don't seem to realise that most of the Magna Carta has long been superseded by other laws).  Whether they are right-leaning I am not entirely sure.  They do seem to want the UK to be politically removed from the EU as far as I can tell.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySat 01 Jun 2019, 22:44

Dirk and George, thank you very much for the translation of the proverb.

About the brexit again and the danger of a large far right group in the EU parliament.

It seems that the US of the moment with Trump backs Boris Johnson as MP of the Tories for now...make the Tories great again...and perhaps a hard Brexit?...
https://www.ft.com/content/7332154e-844b-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2
Steve Bannon, who helped in the Trump campaign, wants also to help to make a large far-right party in Europe to wreck it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Movement_(populist_group)
"Bannon initially discussed his plans for the organization with The Daily Beast, saying he wanted to create a populist "supergroup" bloc that could win up to a third of all 700+ MEP seats. He said he thought of the idea when he was invited to speak at an event hosted by Marine Le Pen.[9] Bannon also believes that Sweden's 2018 elections created the perfect timing to launch The Movement.[10]
The Movement stands as a counterpoint to George SorosOpen Society. Bannon has referred to Soros as "evil but brilliant", and expressed a desire to promote nationalism instead of globalism.
And John Bolton says: Trump administration wants UK to leave the EU
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48481309

Dirk, to come back on the Brexit and leaving without deal. I told some fortnight ago (before the 26 May election) to an academicus of my inner circle, who has a lot of discussions groups within his academic branch of sciences and a lot in the UK, that from the Brexiteers here the impression is that it is more the common man in the street of the lower strata of society, who say: leaving without deal? And so what? He said that during academic discussions also politics came on the surface and that his UK "brothers" of that higher level some said exactly the same...

And here about the far right Flemish party...they hadn't expected that much votes...and to be "salonfähig" as the other parties an had put some women on the list...and many had now the vote as first one...but there were some non expected categories female elected ones...but these elected one suddenly gave their elected seats to men...is it really as supposed a men's party, with women on the second plan to not say more as in the time...

And as I all read it from interviews with Americans, even backing the trade war with the world (that Trump is really someone who "do" something and "schudt aan de boom" (no time to seek for translation)). And it can be that we next year have Trump again...sigh...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySun 02 Jun 2019, 09:47

Paul,

 Literally translation of " schudt aan de boom"  would be "shake the tree" but freely translated it would be something like " ruffling feathers".

About your question about Trump next year I would not be surprised at all, and I am NOT a Donald Trump fan , if the American public voted him in for a second term.

And btw, the meetings/ discussions between the European Union's  nationalist and right parties/groups to form a coalition or alliance between themselves to have a stronger opposition in the EU parliament could well lead to a lot of problems and ……...a breakup of the European Union within the next two decades.


Dirk
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySun 02 Jun 2019, 21:22

@Dirk Marinus wrote:
Paul,

 Literally translation of " schudt aan de boom"  would be "shake the tree" but freely translated it would be something like " ruffling feathers".

About your question about Trump next year I would not be surprised at all, and I am NOT a Donald Trump fan , if the American public voted him in for a second term.

And btw, the meetings/ discussions between the European Union's  nationalist and right parties/groups to form a coalition or alliance between themselves to have a stronger opposition in the EU parliament could well lead to a lot of problems and ……...a breakup of the European Union within the next two decades.


Dirk

Dirk,

thanks for the translation and yes I hope that the Americans will use their brains...and I hold still the Americans for a country working along democratic rules...not the Chinese or the Russian way...and yes India with his "Hindu" party...

And yes, with one united far-right party in Europe, it can lead to the break up of the EU...north/south? west/east? the worsest scenario would be the break up of the German-French couple, the couple married on the ruins of WWII...
And already trouble in Germany...the Christian-Democrat/Socialist coalition...and they have no Liberals in the middle...at the end will England have more Liberals than Germany perhaps...? But I hope always for the best...

Last week I read about a questioning with a professor of a Belgian university about the question if the far right could have been taken in the government, because then they would have to "prove" themselves (here they call it "le cordon sanitaire" both in Flemish and in French Wink ) and he had some ideas about it but had the end he said, but to remember:  the Nazi party entered also legally and at the end with the "Ermächtigungsgesetz" with some tricks became a dictatorship...perhaps better to hold the "cordon sanitaire" and expose in what they are wrong and in what we have to be better...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySun 02 Jun 2019, 21:40

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySun 02 Jun 2019, 23:16

Dirk,

thank you very much for the link. I read it all. It is worser than I thought...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyMon 03 Jun 2019, 05:56

Dear Paul and Dirk,
I think you're a little alarmist.
Indeed, even if I agree  we can make some links between the fascist discourse of the 20th century and those of the populists of the 21st century *, this does not mean that the latter are as dangerous on the international level as the former.
We are not living in the same era and the political failures and weaknesses of populist parties should not be underestimated.
On closer examination, the Italian Liga has not succeeded in allying itself with the "5 stars" who have a more sovereignist than extreme right populist ideology , the French RN is in a "political cage" limited to 20 or 25%, from where it will not come out and you can be sure of that.
Orban's party may have influence, but it is limited.
As for the Brexiters, if I am not mistaken, they are trapped in their own pitfall by the postponement of an unfeasible project, under penalty of economic and social disaster, which may not or never be achieved.
All in all, populists have the right to express themselves and they represent only 20%, they are part of the political landscape and will always be isolated and thus doomed to impotence.

Moreover, their incessant critical speeches tire the public opinion and we see extreme right-wing political figures disappear like Geert Wilders and replaced by others who do not succeed in breaking through, either.
In short, populists exist, they are present on the political scene but do not do much more than bark sterilely and I think it will remain that way. jocolor

* Some examples that I can consider as ideological connections between fascists and populists: Hitler's speech of 10 Dec 1940 on deceiptive democracies or a 1932 speech on multiparty system or speech on the relations between capital, the economy and the people on 30 January 1937.
These themes are echoed in current populist discourses.

Kind regards,
Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyMon 03 Jun 2019, 22:50

Dear Abelard,

as it is nearing midnight I have to stop. Tomorrow more comments.
But to start with: I hope "from the bottom of my heart" (uit de grond van mijn hart) that you will be right with your prognose.

PS: It seems that a person, who had defended, Angela Kasner's "Wir schaffen es" his shot dead. One don't know yet by whom...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Abelard
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 06:07

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Dear Abelard,

as it is nearing midnight I have to stop. Tomorrow more comments.
But to start with: I hope "from the bottom of my heart" (uit de grond van mijn hart) that you will be right with your prognose.
..
Kind regards from Paul.
Dear Paul,
Yes, it is, indeed.
I too hope not to be mistaken in my prognosis, which is only a personal opinion.
However, I am based on what I have seen in the EU over the past few years.
For me, populists are a bit like different political waves that emerge and retreat after a while, and I bet it will be the same in Great Britain, as it was the case in Austria for example.
After all, wasn't UKIP severely defeated in two elections in 2017 and isn't there an ambiguity about the real electoral weight of the Brexiters in terms of voters in 2019?
I am not sure that politicians like Nigel Farage can get out of the posture of the speech and resist the test of putting into practice what he advocates.
I am also not sure that Boris Johnson's image was not damaged by his recent legal troubles in relation to his false slogan in the 2016 referendum.
However, now there remains the unknown about the future of Brexit and who will be the next British Prime Minister.
Wait and see. study
Kind regards,
Abelard
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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 15:06

Abelard,

  with ref to your :

"For me, populists are a bit like different political waves that emerge and retreat after a while, and I bet it will be the same in Great Britain, as it was the case in Austria for example."

Yes ,
 they may retreat after a while but by then they may have caused a lot of upheaval.
Men  like  Adolf Hitler Germany) , Benito  Mussolini Italy) , Ferdinand Marcos ( The Philippines) ,Robert Mugabe (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe) and quite a few others in different parts of the world, especially Africa and some south American countries, were very popular in their heydays , but when once in power well...... you should know what happened to their country  when once they obtained the power to rule.

Yes, they did not last ( either died, got killed or were removed ) but whichever way you look at it they left their country in total ruins. 

Am I right in thinking that it is usually the uneducated section of the population who tend to be in favour of populists? 



Dirk
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 17:28

Well, it seems this afternoon there is yet more discord in Parliament* in the wake of Brexit - it transpires that six MPs have left the "Change" party, which is less than a year old, being composed of MPs who had left longer established parties in the wake of the debacle following the pro-Bexit vote.  The said party only had 11 members before the split.  www.lbc.co.uk/news/change-uk-splits-six-mps-leave-independent-group

One prominent member of "Britain First" (a very right wing group in the UK) is a lady called Jayda Frensham who has a law degree so she has had an education.  I think even the longer established parties are guilty of making promises they can't keep when they want to win an election.  Before the 2010 election in the UK the Lib-Dems here campaigned that they wanted to reduce university fees - of course they didn't expect to be in a position as they were post-election to form a coalition with the Conservatives, but of course they were unable to fulfil the promise about reducing students' fees and they lost a lot of popularity because of it.  Then the late Baroness Thatcher trotted out the formula about returning to Victorian values which some people agreed with, yet they didn't think through what horrendous poverty existed for a part of the population in Victorian times - and everybody in Victorian times had only been sexually active with a marriage partner there wouldn't have been any prostitutes for Jack the Ripper to murder.

* I know discord in Parliament is not brand new.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 20:10

@Abelard wrote:
Dear Paul,
Yes, it is, indeed.
I too hope not to be mistaken in my prognosis, which is only a personal opinion.
However, I am based on what I have seen in the EU over the past few years.
For me, populists are a bit like different political waves that emerge and retreat after a while, and I bet it will be the same in Great Britain, as it was the case in Austria for example.
After all, wasn't UKIP severely defeated in two elections in 2017 and isn't there an ambiguity about the real electoral weight of the Brexiters in terms of voters in 2019?
I am not sure that politicians like Nigel Farage can get out of the posture of the speech and resist the test of putting into practice what he advocates.
I am also not sure that Boris Johnson's image was not damaged by his recent legal troubles in relation to his false slogan in the 2016 referendum.
However, now there remains the unknown about the future of Brexit and who will be the next British Prime Minister.
Wait and see. study
Kind regards,
Abelard

Abelard and Dirk,

first my PS of yesterday:                                                                                             
"PS: It seems that a person, who had defended, Angela Kasner's "Wir schaffen es" his shot dead. One don't know yet by whom..."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48496972
In the BBC article they say:
"However, a council spokesman told Süddeutsche Zeitung that the threats against him had fizzled out"
In my collins paperback stays for "fizzle out": "die out"
But in the Telegraph they say:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/03/cdu-mayor-german-town-kassel-found-dead-bullet-wound/
"Two German mayors almost lost their lives in attempted assassinations in the wake of the refugee crisis."


I will start again in another reply to answer with my comments on your statements.


Kind regards to both from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 21:52

Abelard and Dirk,

Abelard said:
"All in all, populists have the right to express themselves and they represent only 20%, they are part of the political landscape and will always be isolated and thus doomed to impotence."

"Doomed to impotence". It can be, but  the far-right (excuses, but I see a far-right party or government in the US too) isn't perhaps the old "populist" rough model anymore, they got more sophisticated and have perhaps by this approach more influence on the centrist parties, but in my opinion they always stay the same old foxes as their old examples (wolven in schapevacht (wolves in sheep clothes/skin?))
This Bloomberg article seems to support your statement, but I doubt if the EU far-right finds a charismatic Leader, who can unite the diverse far-rights (but that is the big question) it can't grow first in the individual countries and then in Europe, if it isn't split already.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-05-25/eu-vote-thierry-baudet-of-fvd-is-new-face-of-dutch-nationalism

And that will be an answer to LiR too about her message. Perhaps it aren't all dummies, who support the far-right, but perhaps the educated ones are the future leaders, who will make the strategy. But in my opinion you don't want to have the high educated diplomas to become a charismatic figurehead, who seduce the masses, already prepared by some misfortunes in politics and become critical to the traditional parties, as LiR said, because they too long negligated, what lived in the broad public. (I hope it is that what LiR meant?) There are examples in the UK today...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 04 Jun 2019, 22:53

Lady,

about your last paragraph, I tried to answer to you in my previous message;

About your link about the split in the "Change UK" I prefer the BBC one, if you read the reactions of the public on the LBC article even two hundered and "items" from Twitter (which I don't even know what it is)...as I would never be a good politician as I don't know the modern "media"...
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48515505

And as you know I always look to the "about us". In this case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LBC
"Originally owned by a consortium led by the Canadian Selkirk Communications with a 46% stake, LBC was sold in 1987, beginning a turbulent commercial history. The new owners were media company Darling Downs, later renamed Crown Communications, owned by Australian entrepreneur David Haynes. Crown sold the station's original base in Gough Square near Fleet Street in the City of London and relocated to Hammersmith; and in 1989 split the station into two separate services, the news and comment station LBC Crown FM, and the phone-in London Talkback Radio on AM. The transition was not initially well received, and substantially increased costs, pushing the company into the red. In 1993 the company was sold to Shirley Porter's Chelverton Investments, after Crown got into financial difficulty.[2]

And about this present owner Shirley Porter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Porter

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 13 Jun 2019, 10:22

Was Rory Stewart the person of whom Temperance had a good opinion?  I see he has tossed his hat into the ring regarding the choice of the next leader of the Conservative Party and thus Prime Minister.  I don't know if he is well known enough but I prefer him to Boris.  This is linked to Brexit at least tangentially because the state of the Conservative party at present is linked to Brexit.  And the unfortunate Mrs May became leader of that party when David Cameron retired as Prime Minister after the "Leave" vote prevailed in the Brexit referendum circa three years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 20 Jun 2019, 12:41

Whatever my personal thoughts on the matter may be it looks like BoJo is going to end up Prime Minister - and I don't think he'd been there if not for the Brexit debacle.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 20 Jun 2019, 14:53

The whole Conservative leadership contest rather reminds me of Roger McGough's poem, The Leader: 

The Leader

I wanna be the leader
I wanna be the leader
Can I? I can?
Promise? Promise?
Yippee I'm the leader
I'm the leader

OK what shall we do?
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 04 Jul 2019, 23:00

All above very interesting but not the stuff that fills the daily round here for the most part. it's difficult to fit it in what with the world One Day cricket fixtures. women's world cup football. now Wimbledon pushing in and Harry and Megs grabbing headlines about wanting privacy and that son's godparents must be kept secret..….. did anyone even want to know? All that and we have summer and gardening - and how much pay vapid talking heads get on BBC. You really have to live here to believe this place - understanding is something else again. of course the Brexit vote happened during the Glastonbury festival so many sorted priorities in accordance.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 04 Jul 2019, 23:53

@Priscilla wrote:
All above very interesting but not the stuff that fills the daily round here for the most part. it's difficult to fit it in what with the world One Day cricket fixtures. women's world cup football. now Wimbledon pushing in and Harry and Megs grabbing headlines about wanting privacy and that son's godparents must be kept secret..….. did anyone even want to know? All that and we have summer and gardening - and how much pay vapid talking heads get on BBC. You really have to live here to believe this place - understanding is something else again. of course the Brexit vote happened during the Glastonbury festival so many sorted priorities in accordance.
 
Priscilla,

all the same overhere...don't worry too much about an apart British identity...I read today the papers...also about more and more women football...I find that normal..why can't they run after a ball the same as men...and the partner looking to her favourite soaps in the evening and not at all interested in politics as a lot others of my inner circle...while the country is on the brink of separation if they can't form a coalition between the soft Flemish Nationalists of the North and the leading Socialist party from the South...one event perhaps to mark the last days in politics: our Liberal prime minister, chosen for the post of president of the EU council
https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/59912/outgoing-premier-chosen-to-lead-european-council/
You never know that it can have an influence on the forming of a new government by reconciliating the opposing parties...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptySun 14 Jul 2019, 21:37

I saw this morning the défilé of the 14th July. Bastille Day. It seems to be this year in the sign of the Common Euroepean Defence proposed last year by Macron.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-defence/european-defense-coalition-launched-in-paris-idUSKCN1NC291
And Britain gave also green light for the coalition now joined by Finland.
https://thepublicsradio.org/article/france-trumpets-shared-european-defense-on-bastille-day
Although British troops were present, but not a Theresa May
http://en.rfi.fr/france/20190714-macron-put-show-united-european-defence-bastille-day-14-july
Outgoing British Prime Minister Theresa May had been expected to attend but Britain will instead be represented by senior cabinet minister David Lidington, the Elysee said.
Perhaps to understand in the light of the recent past and her imminent replacement. But how will it evolute in the light of the future Brexit policy...? Some Europe under a more French prominent role, seconded by the Germans? And the Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg)?
https://www.lesoir.be/236478/article/2019-07-14/charles-michel-present-au-defile-du-14-juillet-la-dimension-europeenne-est-tres
Saluting the flag - Page 2 B9720262400Z.1_20190714142554_000+G6PE2G6PG.2-0

Mark Rutte (Premier ministre des Pays-Bas), Angela Merkel (chancelière allemande) et Charles Michel, premier ministre belge - Belga


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 16 Jul 2019, 12:24

Yes Paul, I watched the 'defile du quatorze juillet' too ... but then I'm always a bit of a sucker for a man in uniform Wink.

 I also picked up on the big message of pan-European collaboration. And not just in the ceremonial, multi-national units - marching along the Champs Elysées in comaraderie and proudly displaying their national flags alongside each other - but also in some of the seriously heavy material on display too: such as in the flypast of a British Typhoon jet fighter flying in close formation with a French Rafale and a Danish F16. OK, it may well have all been somewhat contrived pro-EU/pro-French/pro-Macron propaganda ... and with as always a canny eye aimed principally towards the domestic audience (especially seeing as he isn't the most popular person at present, having been booed by a few groups of protesters as he drove down the Champs Elysées). Nevertheless such pan-European military cooperation still makes a lot of sense to me; particularly so when there's a fickle, unstable, narcissistic president of the USA, who is somewhat less than fully committed to NATO, nor indeed to many of the old post-WW2 political alliances.

On the French TV channel, TF2, as well as the live coverage of the whole parade, they also had some interesting outside broadcasts, analyses and interviews, some of which were about this new(ish) European Defense coalition. In particular there was a discussion about how Britain's major contribution was in "heavy lift" aircraft, such as Chinook helicopters (there was an RAF Chinook in the flypast too) and the Airbus Atlas A400 big transport aircraft - both are expensive aircraft and not generally needed operationally on a regular basis ... and presumably that's why the French Armée de l'Air has tried to manage without them at all (Chinooks, or similar very big helicopters), or has bought only a few (the Atlas aircraft) .... and accordingly why for the 2013 French military intervention in Mali they had to ask for some British and German aircraft to help fly vehicles and troops down to Africa (although before anyone gets too jingoistic bear in mind that neither Britain nor Germany have enough such aircraft induvidually to "go it alone" in a major military operation either). Accordingly cooperation between allies does seem to be eminently sensible. 
 
Of course various multi-national military units have existed for many years and not just operating under the NATO umbrella either ... bearing in mind that France only formally rejoined NATO in 2009, there's been a unified Franco-German brigade in existence since at least a decade before that. Nevertheless I realise the whole idea of an "EU Army" is still a rather sensitive subject and is anathema to British Brexiters. Just today (16/07/19) the address by Ursula von der Leyen to the EU Parliament, which just mentioned this subject almost in passing, immediately prompted a violent, rude, insulting, foaming-at-the-mouth, rabid response from the Brexit Party MEP, Nigel Farage (... although of course his actions are primarily aimed at pleasing his domestic English audience,  and anyway he is essentially just Trump's - or rather Bannon's and/or Putin's - gobby mouth-piece and compliant, fawning lap-dog).

PS - Paul: As well as Mark Rutte (NL), Angela Merkel (Ger) and Charles Michel (Be), I also noted the presidents - or at least senior ministers - from Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Portugal, Denmark, and Spain ... as well as Jean-Claude Juncker for the EU, and David Lidington (Cabinet Office Minister, aka Theresa May's unofficial deputy) representing the UK.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 16 Jul 2019, 22:45

MM,

thank you very much for the comments.
"As well as Mark Rutte (NL), Angela Merkel (Ger) and Charles Michel (Be), I also noted the presidents - or at least senior ministers - from Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Portugal, Denmark, and Spain ... as well as Jean-Claude Juncker for the EU, and David Lidington (Cabinet Office Minister, aka Theresa May's unofficial deputy) representing the UK."

Yes quite normal, as it were just these ten countries, which want to join the coalition: Belgium, the Netherlands, Finland, Estonia, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Germany, France, the UK.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-defence/european-defense-coalition-launched-in-paris-idUSKCN1NC291
https://thepublicsradio.org/article/france-trumpets-shared-european-defense-on-bastille-day

Saluting the flag - Page 2 018b7f1926284c62918f59adecea4097_1000

From the left, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Portugal's President Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa , French President Emmanuel Macron, his wife Brigitte, French Prime Minister Edouard Philippe and Finnish President Sauli Niinisto attend Bastille Day parade Sunday, July 14, 2019 on the Champs Elysees avenue in Paris. (AP Photo/Kamil Zihnioglu)

And if you look the card, it is like a barrier against Russia. And as I see it Finland seems to have left its historical neutrality course...?

Saluting the flag - Page 2 Europe-map

"an "EU Army" is still a rather sensitive subject and is anathema to British Brexiters. Just today (16/07/19) the address by Ursula von der Leyen to the EU Parliament, which just mentioned this subject almost in passing, immediately prompted a violent, rude, insulting, foaming-at-the-mouth, rabid response from the Brexit Party MEP, Nigel Farage (... although of course his actions are primarily aimed at pleasing his domestic English audience,  and anyway he is essentially just Trump's - or rather Bannon's and/or Putin's - gobby mouth-piece and compliant, fawning lap-dog)."


Well said MM, I certainly couldn't have said it better. yes Bannon was here in Brussels too to wreck the union and after Putin's links with Marianne Le Pen, now it is Salvini pointed to as links with Putin. You can of course understand that the two big ones aren't pleased with the underdog of 500 million "first world countries" of Europe, playing an apart role in the world. At least from the US side: the Bannon party.
And Europe starts already today with the position towards Iran and the US sanctions...
And again in the news a Brexit MP linked to Cambridge Analytica and that CA thought to have inlfuenced the poll in Kenya...and the leak in Facebook Zuckerberg has to pay...and haven't they influenced the polls in the US in favour of Trump?


MM, see you tomorrow for further comments from me.


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 17 Jul 2019, 22:01

MM and Nielsen,

what I wanted to add. The British army would be the third pillar in a quasi European army working within or without NATO. Quid with the British outside the EU? Will they float between the NATO, the US and the new European Army? I don't know with a future PM as Boris Johnson?

And the Commision has now Ursula Albrecht as leader
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen


More unity in Europe against the far right nationalists?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyFri 19 Jul 2019, 11:50

I couldn't resist when I read this on the French language "teletext" of the RTBF (Francophone Belgian TV)
https://www.ft.com/content/1ba5b9c4-a954-11e9-b6ee-3cdf3174eb89





Is he always that accurate with his statements? Some Trump allures?

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 23 Jul 2019, 13:21

The above is quite funny, Paul.

It's recently been announced that we have a new PM (in the UK).  I'm pinching myself and I'm like - "Tell me it's a bad dream and I'm going to wake up".
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyTue 23 Jul 2019, 22:27

Lady,

and on the Isle of Man  (now I see that they say the adjective "Manx"?) the authorites have thanked Boris for his unwilling advertisement stunt. It was in our paper but I find nothing in English...

My uncle, also a fishmerchant lived in a house with in the annex a big "rokerij" (smoke house?). I was there many times in childhood talking to the "smoker?", but not about "smoking"...
Much later and I already married...my father wanted to make also "kippers" as in that old smoking house...and I had to prepare it...with a rotating grinding disc a iron cast bath puting in two halves...one half for the oven...and then above that half bath tub...fire resistent bricks laid in special heat resisting ciment..then above in normal bricks build a complete chimney first vertical to hang the herring and then conical to make a kind of ventilation...a hell of a job...and at the end after several probes and adaptitions not the right "kippers" said my mother...and my father had to agree...although the mixture to burn with oak "schavelingen" and with sawing powder to make a constant smoking was the right one...
My opinion: the chimney not high enough and the smoking had to be continually watched...that was a continuous task as in the "smoking house"
https://www.thefishsociety.co.uk/manx-kippers.html
And as I see it in the film:

 it is the height above the smoking compound that counts...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyWed 24 Jul 2019, 11:56

Paul, I'm sure I've mentioned this before but when I did a history evening course in the 1980s I'm sure the teacher said that one of the contributory factors to one of the altercations between the Dutch and the English in the seventeenth century was that the English wanted to know the Dutch method of smoking herrings.  I'm going from memory so if I can find anything more precise on the internet I will report back.  I recall the teacher saying something to the effect that at that time relations were somewhat tense between the Dutch and the English.  Although on the whole these days the English and the Dutch co-exist reasonably well we still the odd expression which was probably pejorative originally.  For instance if something is unintelligible people might say it sounded like "double Dutch" (think of a similar meaning to "gobbledegook").
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 11:21

Paul (and any other fellow Res Historians who chance on this) - I haven't been able to find anything online to verify that the English and Dutch were ready to commence hostilities because the English wanted to know the process for smoking herring. I did find a blog entry from 2012 (so 7 years ago at the time of typing) saying that the English became miffed because at one time Dutch shipping fleets were fishing in waters the English considered to be their preserve.  (Centuries before the "cod wars" of the 1970s).  https://shkrobius.livejournal.com/376104.html  Of course, Britain and the Netherlands were both maritime nations and both had an eye on overseas nations.  I seem to recall New York was called New Amsterdam at one time.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 11:22

Deleted - double post.


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:25; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 11:23

Deleted - redundant post.  (I was asking if anyone could delete the extra copy of my double post and then remembered I could edit it and delete it myself).
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 12:41

Before the nineteenth century the term 'kipper' very often just meant a male fish after spawning, whether it be herring, salmon, trout or whatever. For example the 1848 'Chambers's Information for People' has; "The adult fish [salmon] having spawned, being out of condition, and unfit for food ... are ... termed kelts; the male fish is sometimes also called a kipper, and the female a shedder or baggit."  Kippers, in the specific sense of brine-soaked and then smoked herring, probably take that name as the general technique was a suitable method for the edible storage of mature 'spent' herring, which during the spawning season can be caught in vast numbers in a short time, but which are generally no longer in their peak condition.

Preserved herring was of course a medieval staple. As well as the whole of Lent, all Saturdays, Fridays and Wednesdays were fish days, in addition to numerous other religious fast days, and so overall about half the days of the year were obligatory meat-free days. For ordinary people who lived away from the coasts, or without their own fishponds, fish meant salted, pickled or smoked herrings, or stockfish (dried cod). Britain’s herring fleets off the east coast caught thousands of herrings throughout the summer (the herring season) and there was a big salting and pickling industry to process them for transport inland which had been in operation since before the Norman Conquest. 

At first they had been preserved in a very primitive fashion by salting in heaps on the shore without even being gutted. But in the 14th century improved techniques were introduced by Dutch entrepreneurs: the herrings were gutted and soaked for a day in brine before being barrelled up in rows between layers of salt to produce ‘white herrings’. In a further refinement shortly after, the fish were first soaked in brine and then strung up and smoked for many hours, and finally barrelled as ‘red herrings’. Again note that at the time they were rarely called 'kippers'.

It seems that the improved techniques for preserving herring were introduced by Dutch fishermen operating out of England. However although they were no doubt keen to corner the English market and keep their methods secret as long as possible, there is nothing to suggest they were ready to go to war over the issue, nor that they didn't eventually impart their practical experience to their fellow English fishermen (brining before smoking the fish became fairly standard in England soon after its introduction). Indeed at about the time these improvements were being introduced the Netherlands were part of Spanish dominions - which were allied more often than not with England (against France) - and then slightly later in the 16th century the Netherlands - now fighting Spain for its independence - was actively supported, militarily, by England. It was only nearly a century later, following the schism resulting from the Cromwell's Commonwealth and then the restoration of Charles II, did relations between England and Holland deteriorate into open warfare. But that had very little to do with kippers - although admittedly access to the rich North Sea fishing grounds was mentioned, by both sides, as an on-going grievence.

From 'Punch', 26 May 1920:

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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 22:25

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Paul (and any other fellow Res Historians who chance on this) - I haven't been able to find anything online to verify that the English and Dutch were ready to commence hostilities because the English wanted to know the process for smoking herring. I did find a blog entry from 2012 (so 7 years ago at the time of typing) saying that the English became miffed because at one time Dutch shipping fleets were fishing in waters the English considered to be their preserve.  (Centuries before the "cod wars" of the 1970s).  https://shkrobius.livejournal.com/376104.html  Of course, Britain and the Netherlands were both maritime nations and both had an eye on overseas nations.  I seem to recall New York was called New Amsterdam at one time.
Lady,

I will try tomorrow to reply on your two messages. But while it was a bit cooler this night I had to water the bushes and potflowers, 9 buckets in total from my rain reservoir. First time in my life that I saw 43° Centigrade on the thermometer of the car, but perhaps as the measuring point is some 6 inches above the road, in reality in the air it is a bit cooler, I think. And now a cooler prospect and nearing midnight it is thundering overhere...
I have to go up early in the morning (7 o'clock Wink ) but I will try to say something coherent before I leave to MM.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Saluting the flag   Saluting the flag - Page 2 EmptyThu 25 Jul 2019, 22:55

MM,

as always I learn something new from your historical reviews. And as it is of my parents' souvenirs it is the more interesting.
"At first they had been preserved in a very primitive fashion by salting in heaps on the shore without even being gutted. But in the 14th century improved techniques were introduced by Dutch entrepreneurs: the herrings were gutted and soaked for a day in brine before being barrelled up in rows between layers of salt to produce ‘white herrings’. In a further refinement shortly after, the fish were first soaked in brine and then strung up and smoked for many hours, and finally barrelled as ‘red herrings’. Again note that at the time they were rarely called 'kippers'."


Yes in our local dialect we call them also "kippers" and we say also "vis gutten" (remove the entrails of the fish) I don't know a Dutch word for it.
http://www.vliz.be/cijfers_beleid/zeevisserij/photo_gallery.php?album=1274&pic=59209
https://www.facebook.com/236588343090898/videos/gutten-van-vis-aan-boord-van-de-o29/1726762127406838/

I will look for "white herrings"...I think it was as we did..."brine" (pekelen?) in salt in a plastic barrel and then in another barrel with layers of salt in between...will look up it tomorrow how we did it from my memory now some 70 years ago...

Kind regards from Paul.

PS: yes and the Brugean Charter from Charles II to fish in British waters up to the Seventies...?
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