Till now I thought that the musical theatre was an English invention and yes on my first trip to England, some 18 years, start of the Sixties, with the "mailboat" from Ostend to Dover and to London, 7 days with an all in bus/train/underground ticket. As I wanted to "smell" the British culture: two musicals, i still remember them as if I was there again. Quite an event for me...first 'A desert song" and then some days later "Oliver"...it was really a revelation for me.

But after a quick research, mostly on the first approach the wiki I found how wrong I was, Nearly international, even in Spain the "Zarzuela", France "L'opéra comique"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_opera
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_theatre

And later the "musical theatre" as film...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_film

Nearing midnight overhere my further comments will be for tomorrow...

Kind regards from Paul.

I spoke about the "Zarzuela" seemingly the Spanish equivalent of the "operette" or the light opera, the forebode of the nowadays musical.
As I said I thought that the zarzuela was only music and singing, as I saw it on a Spanish site about opera. I was years long following the site and even contributing to the webmaster in English, seemingly a lady, as I found it such an interesting discussing site about opera. But in the time it was free access and now you have to give seemingly a name and a password and I think I have never had one...
https://archive.is/www.operasiempre.es

With my new knowledge about the zarzuela I started yesterday some research on the net:
Polka de las callas-La Gran Via
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmbJ4xGt2g
From "EL NIÑO JUDIO"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqFh-TCtuuw
And the thirty best
https://planetamusik.com/blog/mejores-zarzuelas/
And for those, who want to know really "everything" about the zarzuela: an English language site:
https://zarzuela.net/text/tex_002.htm#nino01

To be honest, I was a bit disappointed, while I had expected a more higher literary deeper content of the libretto, but after all it is no opera, and the German and Italian ones, if you look closer aren't that better at all? I think...I ask...
But that would not say that the Spanish speaking world has not produced high level songs as this one:



Kind regards from Paul.

I spoke about the "Zarzuela" seemingly the Spanish equivalent of the "operette" or the light opera, the forebode of the nowadays musical.
As I said I thought that the zarzuela was only music and singing, as I saw it on a Spanish site about opera. I was years long following the site and even contributing to the webmaster in English, seemingly a lady, as I found it such an interesting discussing site about opera. But in the time it was free access and now you have to give seemingly a name and a password and I think I have never had one...
https://archive.is/www.operasiempre.es

With my new knowledge about the zarzuela I started yesterday some research on the net:
Polka de las callas-La Gran Via
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLmbJ4xGt2g
From "EL NIÑO JUDIO"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqFh-TCtuuw
And the thirty best
https://planetamusik.com/blog/mejores-zarzuelas/
And for those, who want to know really "everything" about the zarzuela: an English language site:
https://zarzuela.net/text/tex_002.htm#nino01

To be honest, I was a bit disappointed, while I had expected a more higher literary deeper content of the libretto, but after all it is no opera, and the German and Italian ones, if you look closer aren't that better at all? I think...I ask...
But that would not say that the Spanish speaking world has not produced high level songs as this one:



Kind regards from Paul.

I'm not sure that I correctly understand you Paul, but you seem to be trying to separate out all the various shades of 'musical theatre' into different distinct categories. I don't think this is possible, nor particularly desirable. Personally I see all the forms of 'musical theatre' (a good, succinct term, btw) as just different positions along the same spectrum.

Nevertheless it is quite a common paradigm. For example, why are Mozart's operas usually referred to as being "grand opera", whereas the immensely popular (both in their time and nowadays too) works of say Franz Lehar, Gilbert & Sullivan, or Rogers & Hammerstein, are all to often dismissed as  being "light" operas, operettas, or simple musicals? They were all - Mozart included - essentially written just as popular entertainment, and the formula for their success (whether immediately financial or in longer term appreciation) seems to be based on much the same things: a clever plot with an unexpected twist (babies separted at birth, identical twins, mistaken identities, or an apparent paradox, all seem to be recurring and successful themes); a love interest of course; some sort of big visual spectacle like a grand wedding, a festival or a parade; then maybe throw in a bit of fantasy such as a few supernatural beasts or magical beings; and finally add some topical references. Plus of course plenty of catchy tunes ... as after the ticket sales, printed songs and dances from the opera but simply arranged for the domestic piano, were always a lucrative money-winner for the composer, as well as being sound publicity.  And that seems to be the basic premise whether we're talking about Andrew Lloyd Weber's 'Cats', Gilbert & Sullivan's 'Pirates of Penzance'; Franz Lehar's 'The Merry Widow', or Mozart's 'The Marriage of Figaro'.

Yes there are some operas that deal with heavier themes and darker raw emotions ... such as betrayal, guilt, thwarted love, murder, suicide and death. But in this regard Bizet's 'Carmen' is not so very different from Bernstein & Sondheim's 'West Side Story', and yet the latter is usually dismissed as "just" a musical? Indeed as popular entertainment goes, is there really that much difference between the Disney spin-off musical of 'The Lion King' and Mozart's 'Die Zauberflöte'?  ... and I mean in overall style and ethos, not simply because they both feature talking animals.

But yes, Mozart did write much better music ...

"Carousel" had a dark aspect and looking at Wikipedia its source material (a Hungarian play called "Liliom" by Ferenc Molnar was even darker - won't go into details because of the possibility of spoilers).  And "South Pacific" is based on James A Michener's "Tales of the South Pacific" which I wouldn't describe as a light  read.  I've seen that there's going to be an open air production of "Carmen" in my hometown at the beginning of July this year.  I don't know if it is an amateur or a professional production yet but it might be worth a watch.

MM,

as I read your message, you are completely right. And to be honest I catched only the "heavier themes and darker raw emotions" of for instance: "E lucevan le stelle" when I for the first time, on the mentioned Spanish forum, saw the subtitles in Spanish, and later in English and later had a look to the libretto...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosca
Before I was only moved by the musical Italian language and the several tenors, who each in their particular way staged this song. My former stepmother, who invited me to the opera in Ghent, said that she only went to Tosca if it was a particular tenor.






And I started with the Zarzuela, while that was new to me and now I know nearly everything of it  
And as from the viewers there was no interest I decided to abandon the thread and thanks to your comments I am put on the right way and insight...and also could express my emotions ...

Kind regards from Paul.

I don't really like musicals, no matter what subdivision they belong to. These days it seems the spectacle is the thing, and the music, the singing and the acting are secondary at best. Recently I have decided that I prefer concert performances.

GG, concert performances of the great singers?
KInd regards from Paul.

No. "Concert performance" is not staged. No 200-kilo sopranos jumping off the wall onto the trampoline and bouncing back into view, just unadulterated music.

GG, thanks for your image-rich clarification.

(éclaircissement).
I wanted to use the translation of the Dutch "beeldrijk" (rich in image) (in my dictionary they translate it with "rich in imagery").

Kind regards from Paul.

After all those years English reading and many times speaking, as a non native, I still don't see immediately the anomaly when I write "stepmother" meaning to say "mother-in-law". Although there is quite a difference...
"My former "stepmother", who invited me to the opera in Ghent, said that she only went to Tosca if it was a particular tenor."

As said, my former mother-in-law, pushed me to go with them to the opera. I don't say that she didn't know about music and that she couldn't differentiate between the tenors performing in the opera of Ghent, but as I felt it, the most important for her was to be among the "beau monde" of Ghent during the pauze. As the daughter from a middle class with a bakery, she wanted to be there and be part in that little world. And perhaps as her son had married also in the middle class (tobaco business), she was perhaps pleased with the son of a fish merchant also middle class and hoping that I also would add to her prestige in that circle...but I had always the impression that I failed in her view...after a while...
As for her husband, humble official in a "bureau" somewhere in Brussels...he didn't exist...always after she had said something...she asked for confirmation...hé, XXXX (fill in the name you like)...but the poor guy said never something when  she was at word...and she was nearly always at word...

Kind regards from Paul.

Sounds like Richard & Hyacinth Bucket from "Keeping up appearances". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_Up_Appearances

Yes GG, I saw all episodes. The true British comedy. Can't go too much in detail, while the former sister in law, the one of the tobacco, is still alive. My ex-brother in law dead, their son dead, my former wife dead, what I find all by all a sad thing...
But back to Hyacinth. Saw also the George and Mildred series, but not in the Seventies, while I then was too busy, even on Saturday and Sunday many times...much later on video during a vacation on Tenerife...after the beach...I see now that it was a spin off of
"Man about the house"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_About_the_House
Never saw it or perhaps an episode of the American version of it and I wasn't interested while it is perhaps not that subtle as the British equivalent?
Yes that were the golden times of the British comedy series, which came all sooner or later on our national television...
I suppose they will die out? as the younger public is changed?

Kind regards from Paul.