No, not here that's ongoing - I mean WW2. Researching for something else I learned that the ARP - Air Raid Precaution outfit began in 1937 - was Britain expecting war by then? Was anyone else? (Apart from Mr Hitler)

Well, I read somewhere that the forerunners to radar was begun set up in the mid- to late 1930es as well.
I have a feeling that 'radar' is an abbreviation - for what?

Nielsen according to this link it comes from 'radio detection and ranging' https://www.thefreedictionary.com/radar  I know Priscilla doesn't 'do' links but the linked page explains it better than I can.

Thank you Lady, very informative.

Re Priscilla's questions, I suppose there were reasons why Mr. Churchill was labelled a warmongerer.

Besides that the German re-introduction of conscription, re-armament of the Ruhr, and along with fascist Italy the support of Franco's insurrection in Spain.

By October 1933, with the failure of the 'League of Nations Disarmament Conference' and fearing the worst, a so-called 'Defence Requirements Sub-Committee of Imperial Defence Committee' was appointed specifically to examine the worst deficiencies of the British armed forces should the UK and its Empire soon have to go to war. I don't think anything materially was done following the 1933 sub-committee's rather damning report - probably because the international-political situation soon rapidliy stabilized - for a while at least. Nevertheless in the 1935 UK Budget (presented by Chamberlain as the Chancellor of the Exchequer under the Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin)  - and going against much popular opinion at the time - huge sums of money and industrial resources were finally re-directed to towards the military; new ships, new aircraft, new tanks etc ... and to the industries that would build them. 

So British rearmament, at least in theory, started back as early as 1933 or 34 .... but in a rather casual way. And to be honest even at outbreak of war in September '39, Britain was still rather dabbling in re-armament - which tended to see as the business of capitalist, for-profit, privately-owned industry. While at the same time of course the German armaments industry - centrally controlled, financed, directed, and under full state control - was going at it full hammer and tongs.

Ah, thank you for that MM. The fog lifts. I had wondered what  kick started it. Was there no fear of what Germany was about anywhere?

Well Churchill of course had been warning against a resurgent Germany and pressing for re-armament from the early 1930s but his was rather a lone voice - although I think Lloyd George was another one who spoke out early on. Churchill's first major speech on defence was in February 1934 when he stressed the need to rebuild the Royal Air Force and to create a unified Ministry of Defence. In 1935 he was one of the founding members of 'Focus' which was a group which brought together people of differing political backgrounds and occupations who were united in seeking 'the defence of freedom and peace' and it later led to the formation of the much wider 'Arms and the Covenant Movement' in 1936. 

This was at about the time of German remilitarization of the Rhineland (March 1936) but in Britain there was little public opposition to this - Lord Lothian famously commented that it was no more than the Germans walking into their own backyard, while George Bernard Shaw similarly claimed it was no different than if Britain had reoccupied Portsmouth. In June 1936 in response to the Rhineland issue, Churchill organised a deputation of senior Conservatives who shared his concerns to see Stanley Baldwin (the PM), Chamberlain (Chancellor) and Halifax (deputy Foreign Sec.). He had tried to include delegates from the other two parties, and later wrote "If the leaders of the Labour and Liberal oppositions had come with us there might have been a political situation so intense as to enforce remedial action."  As it was the meeting achieved little, Baldwin arguing that the Government was doing all it could and that despite having started, tentatively, to re-arm, Britain still lacked the resources to enforce her treaty guarantees. Moreover, Baldwin said, the British public would not stand for military force anyway. Nevertheless the government reaction to the Rhineland issue showed that more Conservatives shared Churchill's views and he was less isolated then he had been earlier.

And on the wider issue of Britain's rearmament, it is worth noting that it was Neville Chamberlain - he of the policy of appeasement - who as Chancellor of the Exchequer under Baldwin introduced the critical 1935 budget that really kick-started Britain's rearmament.

MM, your message is a welcome addendum to my Hitler-Stalin pact thread and it is still raging on Historum although I don't intervene anymore as it is hijacked by people with a non historical hidden agenda...there is even someone from Hong Kong writing on line a book in defence of Chamberlain...
Regards, Paul.

From wiki:

The RAF Volunteer Reserve was formed in July 1936 to provide individuals to supplement the Royal Auxiliary Air Force which had been formed in 1925 by the local Territorial Associations. Initially the RAFVR was composed of civilians recruited from the neighbourhoods of Reserve Flying Schools, which were run by civilian contractors who largely employed as instructors members of the Reserve of Air Force Officers (RAFO), who had previously completed a four-year short service commission as pilots in the RAF. Navigation instructors were mainly former master mariners without any air experience. Recruits were confined to men of between 18 and 25 years of age who had been accepted for part-time training as Pilots, Observers and Wireless Operators. The object was to provide a reserve of aircrew for use in the event of war. By September 1939, the RAFVR comprised 6,646 Pilots, 1,625 Observers and 1,946 Wireless Operators

Initial ARP work had begun as early as 1935:

Air Raid Precautions

In September 1935, the British prime minister, Stanley Baldwin, published a circular entitled Air Raid Precautions, inviting local authorities to make plans to protect their people in event of a war. Some towns responded by arranging the building of public air raid shelters. These shelters were built of brick with roofs of reinforced concrete. However, some local authorities ignored the circular and in April 1937 the government decided to create an Air Raid Wardens' Service and during the next year recruited around 200,000 volunteers.

The Hyperwar site has an interesting article on pre-war British Rearmament:

British War Production 1934-38

My book 'Fuelling the Wars: PLUTO and the Secret Pipeline Network 1936-2015' spends most of the first chapter 'Protect and Survive' describing the preparations undertaken by the UK in terms of building up and protecting fuel stocks prior to the start of the war.

From the introduction to my book

'The GPSS originated as a result of the threat of war in the 1930s.  Up until 1932 the Government had exercised the ‘ten year rule’ that a major war could not possible occur in the next years.  Therefore preparation for such a war did not need to be undertaken.  As a result, in 1936 the RAF was inadequately equipped with mainly obsolete and obsolescent aircraft.  Only very limited stocks of aviation gasoline were held at a relatively few RAF airfields and its total reserves amounted to just 8,000 tons.  These reserves were estimated to be sufficient for no more than ten days of war.  It was in 1936 that the first test flight of the Spitfire took place and the RAF planned for large numbers of squadrons of Hurricanes and Spitfires.  However, these fighters would need fuel, which would require storage facilities that would need to be protected against aerial bombardment. 

In July 1936 the Air Ministry decided to build some new storage depots with a total capacity of 90,000 tons.  This was only the first of many increases in the requirements for much greater fuel reserves for all the three services and also for civil usage.  When the war started in 1939 the first of these new storage facilities were coming on line.  The outcome of the battle of Britain could have been quite different without them, as could the effects of bombing on petroleum storage tanks.  Only two 4,000 ton protected storage tanks were destroyed as a result of enemy action compared with over 500,000 tons of unprotected above ground storage destroyed.  Before and during the war the Air Ministry alone constructed 78 storage depots with a total capacity of over 1.6 million tons.  As the government lacked the expertise to construct such facilities the work was contracted to the major oil companies.'

Triceratops and Tim, thank you both for this interesting additional information.
Kind regards, Paul.

Trike, that site really was most interesting and the detail, fascinating. How much of that. one wonders, was known by the general public - or come to that, most members of the two Houses. Which brings to mind that many folk know little of the huge web of the EU we are trying to break free from - or who should have taken a deeper interest  when the terms of the Maastricht Treaty were being laid.

Trike, that site really was most interesting and the detail, fascinating. How much of that. one wonders, was known by the general public - or come to that, most members of the two Houses. Which brings to mind that many folk know little of the huge web of the EU we are trying to break free from - or who should have taken a deeper interest  when the terms of the Maastricht Treaty were being laid.

Priscilla,

"Which brings to mind that many folk know little of the huge web of the EU we are trying to break free from - or who should have taken a deeper interest  when the terms of the Maastricht Treaty were being laid."

I know that in the "general public" few make an in depth investigation about what matters, and most react only to the "slogans" from the "populists" as indeed in the Thirties we are discussing here. But what do you mean with "when the terms of the Maastricht Treaty were being laid"?
Perhaps better to discuss this in the Brexit thread (The elephant...)?

Kind regards, Paul.

Priscilla wrote:

Trike, that site really was most interesting and the detail, fascinating. How much of that. one wonders, was known by the general public - or come to that, most members of the two Houses. Which brings to mind that many folk know little of the huge web of the EU we are trying to break free from - or who should have taken a deeper interest  when the terms of the Maastricht Treaty were being laid.

I read this a little while ago:



The start of the book argues that in the 1920s the politicians had told the generals that there would not be another continental war in the foreseeable future, and as a consequence, the British Army. by the early 30s, had gone back to being the Imperial Police Force it had been 50 years earlier.

A propos of the original post referring to WW2 Air Raid Precautions, we have also discussed this in some detail (in 2016) here:

Res Historica - Air Raid Precautions

A relic of "preparedness for war" is being renovated and losing its link. For many years, the CeeDers Club has stood on the banks of the canal at Whitwick, on the outskirts of Wolverhampton. It was the old Civil Defence base, and when Civil Defence was disbanded it continued as a members-only social club, initally for ex-CDers (hence the name). It is now to be open to the public as the "Canalside Bar and Grill"

Much can be said if countries especially in Europe were expecting a war breaking out in the 1930's.
How much did they knew about the Japanese claims and invasions in China and its  surrounding countries?

But coming back to present times. does Britain and countries in Europe expect an armed conflict with Russia and is there a possibility of another world war in the near future? 


Dirk

Dirk Marinus wrote:

Much can be said if countries especially in Europe were expecting a war breaking out in the 1930's.
How much did they knew about the Japanese claims and invasions in China and its  surrounding countries?

But coming back to present times. does Britain and countries in Europe expect an armed conflict with Russia and is there a possibility of another world war in the near future? 


Dirk

Dirk too late for an elaborated reply. Will come back to you tomorrow.
Kind regards from Paul.

Dirk,

"But coming back to present times. does Britain and countries in Europe expect an armed conflict with Russia and is there a possibility of another world war in the near future? "

I don't expect an armed conflict with Russia, or it had to be pushed by the US on the expense of Europe. I rather fear more conflicts with China in the further future, as China is the  emerging giant, becoming again and now really the "Empire of the Middle" and as it is a dictatorship, it uses the most sophisticated, brave new world, technology, to control their population. I hope they will still be able at the end to hold to their human freedom. And they have a long term strategy, the new silk road (working on the politics of the transit countries on that way). A new silk route along the oceans...already in Greece the harbour of Athene and now a big harbour in Italy. Courting now Pakistan for  a route to the Indian Ocean...binding Africa with investments in infrastructure...I hope that the Europpeans will not miss this boat.
And also on an indirect way binding the "famous" nowadays president of the US, via North Korea. Don't he see that one dictator visit always the other dictator before the Korean leader acts...

At the end I think that after some time this big Chinese economy linked to political influence in the world, will cause conflicts among the global countries aroung that new political might of China, that land mass in the middle. Perhaps, even a Russia could become again an ally of Europe?
I don't understand why a nowadays US mkaes trouble in the Atlantic Alliance with Europe, why the European nationalists want to tear Europe apart in the light of the future Chinese domination.

I hope that future conflicts with China don't turn out in again a world war...and that the sense of "compromis" will prevail...

Kind regards from Paul.