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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyFri 26 Apr 2019, 22:08

Dirk, as said in reply on your message in the other forum, Abrahamic religions are not in my opinion related to the monotheism of Echnaton but more Zoroastrianism. I did already in the time research on the old BBC as I was struck by the similarities with what I was learnt 7 years old in a Belgian nunschool about Christianism and what I later learned about Zoroastrianism...

First about the solar monotheism of Echnaton in comparison with the other worships of solar deities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_deities
And most seem to rule out the link between the old testament Moses and Echnaton
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-near-eastern-world/akhenaten-and-moses/
From the article:
Did Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten’s adamant worship of one deity influence the Biblical Moses, leader of the Israelite Exodus? Was Akhenaten’s monotheism the progenitor of Israelite monotheism? According to BAR author Brian Fagan, we are talking about two different kinds of monothesisms:
“Israelite monotheism developed through centuries of discussion, declarations of faith and interactions with other societies and other beliefs,” Fagan writes. “In contrast, Akhenaten’s monotheism developed very largely at the behest of a single, absolute monarch presiding over an isolated land, where the pharaoh’s word was divine and secular law. It was an experiment that withered on the vine.”

And about the link between Zoroastrianism and the Jewish religion and of course with the later Christianity, hence when I read about Zoroastrianism I remembered the nun's teaching of our Belgian school, me 7 years old in the start of the Fifties, and I was seeing the apparent similarities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

And perhaps only an American military, but he seems better than Jackie Ferris
http://www.sullivan-county.com/main.htm
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jud_zor.htm
And a discussion seemingly among academici:
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Do_you_think_Zoroastrianism_influenced_Judaism
Although the conclusions of the American military's site seem in the same line as the discussion among academics, I will stick mainly to the academic one
I found especially revealing the article from:
Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions Jack_Son6

2nd Feb, 2018
Jack Son
V.O.Chidambaram College, Tuticorin
From here on:
"The simplest answer to the first question is, yes, there is a great deal of Zoroastrian influence on Judaism and Christianity, but the problem is that it is hard to document this exactly, at least in the early stages of Judaism. The evidence is there, but it is all "circumstantial" evidence and often does not stand up to the rigorous judgment of scholarship. Nevertheless, I will dare to present these ideas assertively, with the qualification that there will likely be no definite way to prove them either true or untrue.
In 586 BCE, the forces of the Babylonian Empire conquered the Jews, destroying their Temple and carrying off a proportion of the Jewish population into exile. The captives consisted especially of educated and upper-class people as well as the royal family. This "Babylonian captivity" lasted almost fifty years. In 539 BCE the Persians, under the leadership of the Achaemenid King Cyrus, conquered Babylon, and in 538 Cyrus issued a decree stating that the Jews would be allowed to return to their homeland. Not only were the Exiles released, but Cyrus, and to some extent his Achaemenid successors, also supported the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. Cyrus' policy was motivated not only by his religious tolerance (he also encouraged other, pagan peoples to maintain their own religions) but by statesmanlike wisdom; people treated generously are less likely to rebel.
But not all the Jews wanted to go home. In the years of Exile, the adaptable Jewish people had established themselves in Mesopotamia, settling there and engaging in business and even politics. Many Jews, while remaining devout Jews, did not go back to their homeland. They carried on their lives in their new home, and as the Persian Empire consolidated its rule, some Jews even rose to high positions of service in the imperial court.
It was during the end of the Exile, among the Jews now living in the Persian Empire, that the first significant contact was made between the Jewish and Iranian cultures. And it is evident in the Bible that Jewish thinking changed after the Exile. The question is then: are these changes the result of the cultural meeting of Jewish and Iranian thinkers, or are these changes due to the shock of Exile? During the Exile, Jews had to change not only how they worshipped, since they no longer had their temple or the animal sacrifices which had been at the center of their faith, but also how they thought about God. The Jewish concept of God as their tribal protector, who would save them from being conquered or exiled, had to undergo revision.
I believe that both factors are present, inspiring the changes in post-exilic Judaism: not only the Jews thinking new thoughts about God and humanity, but also contact with the Zoroastrian religion of the Persian Empire. But then another question arises: how did the ancient Jews learn about Zoroastrianism? It is highly unlikely that Jewish scholars and thinkers ever directly encountered Zoroastrian scriptures such as the Gathas (the founding text of the Zoroastrian faith, attributed to the Prophet Zarathushtra himself) or the Yashts (hymns of praise to various intermediate deities and guardian spirits, adapted from pre- Zarathushtrian mythology). The priestly usage and archaic language of the Avesta scriptures would be a barrier to Jews. But most of Zoroastrianism, known and practiced among the people, existed in oral tradition: through word of mouth, not by the study of written scriptures. This oral tradition included stories about God, the Creation, the ethical and cosmic conflict of Good and Evil, the divine Judgment and the end of the world. The tradition would also include the well-known Zoroastrian symbolism of fire, light and darkness, as well as stories and prayers about the yazatas or intermediate spiritual beings and the Prophet Zarathushtra. These are all elements of what might be called "classic" Zoroastrianism (as it developed from the "primal" Zoroastrianism of the Gathas)."

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyMon 29 Apr 2019, 07:54

Hi Paul 
While Zoroastrianism had some influence on Judaism in areas such as the concept of angels and demons and in apocalyptic literature, I not think it impacted on the development of explicit monotheism in Judaism.  Pre-exilic prophets see Yahweh as ruling the entire world with nations such as Assyria and Babylon as his instruments.  It is II Isaiah who takes this view to its logical conclusion in Yahweh being the only God and II Isaiah predates the adoption of Zoroastrianism as the national religion of the Achaemenids by Darius I.
regards
Tim
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyMon 29 Apr 2019, 22:26

@Tim of Aclea wrote:
Hi Paul 
While Zoroastrianism had some influence on Judaism in areas such as the concept of angels and demons and in apocalyptic literature, I not think it impacted on the development of explicit monotheism in Judaism.  Pre-exilic prophets see Yahweh as ruling the entire world with nations such as Assyria and Babylon as his instruments.  It is II Isaiah who takes this view to its logical conclusion in Yahweh being the only God and II Isaiah predates the adoption of Zoroastrianism as the national religion of the Achaemenids by Darius I.
regards
Tim


Tim,

I read the whole evening texts related to this question and can say that my horizon is broadened.
As in our Catholic education, there were no talks about the Bible, more about the New Testament and even more how to behave as a Christian, I had to search for your Isaiah II. I found now that it was the second Isaiah book.
I started with a timetable to compare the Babylonian, the religion of Cyrus and the time of Isaiah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great


And I found here a discussion from the corner of Hebrew studies:
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_188.pdf
And the source:
https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/jhs/index.php/jhs/about

And from the Persian corner about the link between Zoroastrianism and Judaism
https://brill.com/abstract/journals/jps/10/1/article-p26_2.xml
And the source
https://brill.com/abstract/journals/jps/10/1/article-p26_2.xml

And the BBC more neutral?:
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170406-this-obscure-religion-shaped-the-west


And as I all read it, it seems to be a bit a contorversy as the German Historikerstreit?
An article about this controversy:
Zoroastrianism: The Iranian roots of Christianity?

[url=http://www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/Rennie 2007 CSSR.36.1.3-7.pdf]http://www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/Rennie%202007%20CSSR.36.1.3-7.pdf[/url]

And an article from Barr mentioned in the above pdf from Jstor
But I have to do a long procedure to have access via the former university of the grandson...
The Question of Religious Influence.
The Case of Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1464919?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


I have to say that I have now a much better insight than in my thread about Zoroastrianism on the BBC now some 15 years ago Wink 
I still remember that I had to seek the term in English, while we mostly speak about Zarathushtra...

Kind regards from Paul.



[url=http://www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/Rennie 2007 CSSR.36.1.3-7.pdf]http://www4.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/Rennie%202007%20CSSR.36.1.3-7.pdf[/url]

A pdf seems  not to work overhere? I will seek to move it properly
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyMon 29 Apr 2019, 23:12

Tim, the only way I find is to put in google "Zoroastrianism: The Iranian roots of Christianity" to reach the pdf

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyThu 02 May 2019, 10:02

Hi Paul

I am currently busy with an essay on iconoclasm in Europe during the Reformation, I will get back on this after I have completed it.

best wishes

Tim
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyThu 23 May 2019, 19:58

Hi Paul

It strikes me that this is all speculation as there is no way to accurately date the relevant parts of the Hebrew bible as being with any certainty written before or after Jewish contact with Zoroastrianism.

Cougan dates the J part of the Pentateuch, which includes the creation story of Genesis 2, to the time of the kingdom of Judah which predates any Jewish contact with either Persia or Zoroastrianism, in which case Jews did not get their concept of a creator God from there.

regards

Tim
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyFri 24 May 2019, 23:32

Tim, sorry I prepared already yesterday in mind for an answer to your three replies, but here already again half past midnight overhere...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptySat 25 May 2019, 23:28

@Tim of Aclea wrote:
Hi Paul

It strikes me that this is all speculation as there is no way to accurately date the relevant parts of the Hebrew bible as being with any certainty written before or after Jewish contact with Zoroastrianism.

Cougan dates the J part of the Pentateuch, which includes the creation story of Genesis 2, to the time of the kingdom of Judah which predates any Jewish contact with either Persia or Zoroastrianism, in which case Jews did not get their concept of a creator God from there.

regards

Tim

 Tim,

the whole evening searching to answer to your statements...
https://www.academia.edu/10159599/Between_Egypt_Mesopotamia_and_Scandinavia_Late_Bronze_Age_glass_beads_found_in_Denmark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
https://syskool.com/zoroastrianism/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24049234?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptySun 26 May 2019, 22:33

Tim,

"It strikes me that this is all speculation as there is no way to accurately date the relevant parts of the Hebrew bible as being with any certainty written before or after Jewish contact with Zoroastrianism."

That is indeed the question. Because both the Hebrew Bible and Zoroastrianism are speculation, when they are written and to what "narrations" of what time they go back.
We together with nordmann agreed already on the "exodus" that the myth could have a "source" in the time it was attributed to, the so-called Mozes time?
But from written texts there is up to now only the oldest 7th century. I gave a link about it.

Up to some weeks ago I didn't know what Deuteronium was...as the Pentateuch...and see now...
As you mentioned the J part:
https://www.pathwaystogod.org/sites/default/files/files/CompositionOfPentateuch_0.pdf

But recently there seems to are alternatives to this interpretation of Wellhausen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist


"Cougan dates the J part of the Pentateuch, which includes the creation story of Genesis 2, to the time of the kingdom of Judah which predates any Jewish contact with either Persia or Zoroastrianism, in which case Jews did not get their concept of a creator God from there."
Tim, isn't it Coogan instaid of Cougan?

"with either Persia or Zoroastrianism"
But that link with Persia and Zoroastrianism as the birth of Zoroaster (Zarathustra) seems also as much discussed and controversial, as the Mozes myth...
https://www.academia.edu/1792246/On_the_study_of_Zoroastrianism
See about the clashes between academici: Personality clashes and Gloomy Pictures on page 569.


And there seems much to say about an earlier tradition collected later in the written texts, the same as it was in the Pentateuch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24049234?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
And from another link Mary Boys seems to see roots from 1500 BC on.
And an Indian link?
https://syskool.com/zoroastrianism/


And Tim why wouldn't it have been possible that there were links with the Pentateuch and Zoroastrianism before the 7th century BC, as there were even trade contacts between Denmark and the Middle East in the Bronze Age?
https://www.academia.edu/10159599/Between_Egypt_Mesopotamia_and_Scandinavia_Late_Bronze_Age_glass_beads_found_in_Denmark

 Or am I now not a real historian, a bit as a Graham Hancock or a von Däniken?

Kind regards from Paul.
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Tim of Aclea
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptyWed 29 May 2019, 16:15

Hi Paul

I do not think that the Persians appeared on the scene until quite late, relatively speaking.  The earliest reference to the Persians in the Bible are all in clearly post exilic books while there are a couple of references to the Medes in Jeremiah and Isaiah. 

Of course it could be that Zoroastrianism was influenced by the religion of Yahweh in the belief of a creator God, not the other way round.

regards

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions   Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions EmptySun 02 Jun 2019, 21:53

@Tim of Aclea wrote:
Hi Paul

I do not think that the Persians appeared on the scene until quite late, relatively speaking.  The earliest reference to the Persians in the Bible are all in clearly post exilic books while there are a couple of references to the Medes in Jeremiah and Isaiah. 

Of course it could be that Zoroastrianism was influenced by the religion of Yahweh in the belief of a creator God, not the other way round.

regards

Tim

Tim,

I don't say that you are wrong, but at least there are doubts up to now.
As I said in my former message it is all question of "dates"...up to now the "oldest" Pentateuch found is quite recently, the time of the Deuteronium 6th or was it 7th century BC? That was also the time of Zoroastrianism?
I mentioned it already in my message (but you said that wiki wasn't always right, but for lack of better for the moment)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist
"Julius Wellhausen, the 19th century German scholar responsible for the classical form of the documentary hypothesis, did not attempt to date J more precisely than the monarchical period of Israel's history.[12] In 1938, Gerhard von Rad placed J at the court of Solomon, c. 950 BCE, and argued that his purpose in writing was to provide a theological justification for the unified state created by Solomon's father, David.[13] This was generally accepted until a crucial 1976 study by H. H. Schmid, Der sogenannte Jahwist ("The So-called Yahwist"), argued that J knew the prophetic books of the 8th and 7th centuries BCE, while the prophets did not know the traditions of the Torah, meaning J could not be earlier than the 7th century.[14] A number of current theories place J even later, in the exilic and/or post-exilic period (6th–5th centuries BCE).[15]

Thus both at the 7th century or even after the Babylonian Captivity (captivity as Dirk and I both learned at school)?
And even if it is, or will be "found" (excavated or a translation dated from the 10th century), as I mentioned from my many links there too controversy, but serious academici, with links to the language, mention Zoroastrianism thinking already from 1500 BC on?

Kind regards from Paul.
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