A discussion forum for history enthusiasts everywhere
 
HomeHome  Recent ActivityRecent Activity  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  SearchSearch  

Share | 
 

  Cold War Katanga

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
PaulRyckier
Censura
PaulRyckier

Posts : 4226
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptyFri 05 Jul 2019, 22:46

As Dirk mentioned Mad Mike Hoare:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Mike_Hoare
seemingly a South African mercenary aiding Tshombé in Katanga 1961
and he helped also with Tshombé to counter the Simba revolt in 1964 and then already with the help of the Americans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simba_rebellion

And about the dead of Dag Hammarskjöld and the involvement of Jan Van Risseghem with a Fuga Magister
I mentioned two articles for the Dutch speaking Dirk
https://www.demorgen.be/nieuws/weduwe-piloot-spreekt-voor-het-eerst-over-crash-vn-baas-in-1961-mijn-jan-heeft-het-niet-gedaan~b6f083d0/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.
https://www.hln.be/de-krant/-belgische-piloot-bekende-moord-op-vn-secretaris~a2d3ab80/
In the meantime I found an English language article that don't say all of the Dutch content articles
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/12/former-raf-pilot-shot-down-un-chief-dag-hammarskjold-1961-plane

But yesterday I looked more to the role of the CIA in the new Congo republic, as together with the Portuguese in the neighbouring Angola.
They even tried to poison Lumumba, but in the meantime he was murdered in Katanga
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483553?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
The wiki about the CIA in Congo is an interesting revue, but in my opinion try to emphasize that Lumumba wanted to be neutral and it was only by the actions of the CIA that he was driven in the hands of the Soviets. At least I understand it that way. I think there is much more research needed than mentioned in the Wiki. And there seems to be also left wing and right wing "interpretations". So it is not easy to find the reality, if that can ever found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo
In any case it was a part of the Cold War.

As for Angola:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Angola
 
Zambia
But I ask Dirk if Kenneth Kaunda hadn't the best approach to the Americans in the Cold War? I remember that he once visited our factory and as there was a huge transaction of our goods were possible, we had to honour him as much as we could. I remember having had to stay at a gate to make that when the presidential cortege passed all would run smootly. And so I saw Kaunda once in face. In the briefing about the visit we learned that he wrote also poems.
https://aaregistry.org/story/zambia-gains-independence/
https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/kenneth-kaunda-the-united-states-and-southern-africa-9781474267632/
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14682740701284132

I hope I will receive some input from Dirk, especially about Northern Rhodesia.

Kind regards from Paul.
Back to top Go down
Dirk Marinus
Consulatus
Dirk Marinus

Posts : 246
Join date : 2016-02-03

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptySun 07 Jul 2019, 20:26

Paul,

 there is not that much to say about Kenneth Kaunda. He had great ideas and was the right man to lead Zambia but also had enemies.

Yes, he was instrumental in bringing independence to Northern Rhodesia but it was much a much more peaceful build up compared to the Southern Rhodesia independence movement headed by Robert Mugabe /Joshua Nkomo what turned out to be a very brutal war.
Much can be said about that also.

Will do some thinking and then come back to this topic hoping of course that I will not be labelled as a racist.
It always amazes me how people who have never ever been to Africa, and more than likely could not even point out on a blind map the location of the African continent, are very quick to mention the word racism.

Anyway enough said before I get banned from the board.

And Paul, mentioning "Mad Mike Hoare .

Did you know that he is still alive , he turned 100 last March and actually lives in Ireland.




regards

Dirk
Back to top Go down
PaulRyckier
Censura
PaulRyckier

Posts : 4226
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptySun 07 Jul 2019, 22:13

Dirk, 

just a quick reply because I am doing research for Nielsen about the Merovingians
Thanks for the reply and I recall the set backs to you from the BBC for in my opinion only saying your opinion about what happened. If you read the Dutch articles I mentioned...was it in De Soete house in Belgium that they found two bones of fingers of Lumumba and those Katangese Gendarmes hacked him in pieces and tried to let him disappear in acid...it was quite another world there in Africa...I remember some episodes of Pakenham's Scramble for Africa about the later Belgian Congo...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scramble-Africa-Thomas-Pakenham/dp/0349104492
 
Looking forward to your later replies in this matter, 

with kind regards from Paul.
Back to top Go down
Dirk Marinus
Consulatus
Dirk Marinus

Posts : 246
Join date : 2016-02-03

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptySat 17 Aug 2019, 12:54

Paul,

with further ref to the deathly air crash 1961   of Dag Hammerskjold have a read through another story which is attached hereto and was released recently.

Was a U.N. Secretary-General Assassinated to Cover Up a Sinister Plot to Spread AIDS Across Africa?
On Sept. 18, 1961, U.N. Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld died when his plane crashed in Ndola, Rhodesia. 


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/spotlight/was-a-un-secretary-general-assassinated-to-cover-up-a-sinister-plot-to-spread-aids-across-africa/ar-AAFTe3b?ocid=spartandhp

Dirk
Back to top Go down
nordmann
Nobiles Barbariæ
nordmann

Posts : 6838
Join date : 2011-12-25

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptySat 17 Aug 2019, 16:56

A "click-bait" headline, which refers to a theory rightly dismissed as daft even in the very article to which it refers, a review of Mads Brügger's latest excursion into documentary making based on rather dubious premise but executed in a manner likely to generate quite a lot of publicity due to the controversy that can be manufactured around both premise and execution. Brügger is a Danish director whose previous professional incarnation was as a rather sensationalist TV "journalist", also with a rather chequered reputation regarding his ability to distinguish between substantial and idle speculation, and rarely if ever actually going to the trouble of researching and identifying his subject beyond using impersonation and other subterfuges to "prove" a theory through entrapment of individuals which might suggest a theory as valid, along with anecdotal accounts and spurious "facts" elicited from often very unreliable witnesses. You seem to have a knack for bringing such charlatans to our attention, Dirk.

Here in Norway Brügger's treatment of the Hammarskjold incident received quite a lot of attention, and was particularly interesting to those journalists and authors who, in the past, have argued for the very real possibility that the UN Secretary General was the specific target of an assassination that had been orchestrated with the collusion of certain powers-that-be and some rather better attested involvement from mercenaries. However the consensus here was that Brügger's film adds nothing of consequence to what is already known, and in fact the inclusion of much that is so blatantly conjecture and fantasy of the highest order has even led to some commentators wondering if Brügger himself isn't maybe part of a conspiracy to prematurely end any hope of a proper official investigation by reducing such efforts to farce. Such theories aside however it is safe to say that the general consensus was simply that it is a crap film as documentaries go, and not worth wasting one's time watching.

Brügger uses his twitter page to shamelessly promote his work, and his hundreds of references to be found there linking to reviews, both good and bad, probably tell you as much about Brügger's priorities when it comes to accurate journalism versus popularity of his product as you'd ever need to know. Lately he's been concentrating on rather lower hanging fruit, namely an "exposé" about North Korea, which apparently he has deduced is a rather rotten state indeed. Can't see the Pulitizer committee being too excited about this one either.
Back to top Go down
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com
LadyinRetirement
Censura
LadyinRetirement

Posts : 2592
Join date : 2013-09-16
Location : North-West Midlands, England

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptySat 17 Aug 2019, 17:30

I'd heard that (conspiracy) theory some while ago, nordmann.  With the proliferation of the internet there seems to be somebody saying there was something sinister about the deaths of many well-known people.  Though I see you have mentioned that DH's death had previously been discussed by perhaps more serious journalists.  I won't mention the name of the person (as I don't want to bring any people with 'unusual' ideas to this site) but there are already (as you likely know) speculative theories abounding about the recent death of a somewhat (allegedly) dodgy financier.

It's so hard to know whether a person is a charlatan or a bona fide investigator* these days unless it is a matter one knows something about.  You know about what goes on in Norway being based there but it's harder for us who are further away from that country to sift the wheat from the chaf regarding such information.

* Well I'll add a rider that if someone starts attesting that the earth is flat I will believe them to either be a charlatan or a very much mistaken person.
Back to top Go down
PaulRyckier
Censura
PaulRyckier

Posts : 4226
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptyWed 05 Feb 2020, 19:48

Dirk,

while you mentioned in this thread Mad Mike, whose name I never heard...and thanks to you...

Dangerous life, but nevertheless became more than 100 years old...
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/03/world/mad-mike-famous-mercenary-death-scli-intl-gbr/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Mike_Hoare

Just an action film concerning him, but with great names as Burton
"Wild geese"
The "normal stuff" of action war films and perhaps will nordmann say that we haven't to glorify...by posting this film?...
But perhaps for you and others it is rather an entertaining action film...there were times that I...





 Paul.
Back to top Go down
Nielsen
Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Nielsen

Posts : 515
Join date : 2011-12-31
Location : Denmark

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptyThu 06 Feb 2020, 12:21

Re the above mentioned Mad Mike Hoare, he passed away earlier this month - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2020/02/02/mad-mike-hoare-mercenary-leader-obituary/
Back to top Go down
Dirk Marinus
Consulatus
Dirk Marinus

Posts : 246
Join date : 2016-02-03

 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga EmptyThu 06 Feb 2020, 19:17

He was actually not that mad as what people think/say.

He was quite intelligent and had the knack of convincing people listening to him.

Any way another legend gone and I am sure that there are not many of his Congo mercenaries left.
It is all now some 60 years ago.


Dirk
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




 Cold War Katanga Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cold War Katanga    Cold War Katanga Empty

Back to top Go down
 

Cold War Katanga

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Res Historica History Forum :: The history of people ... :: War and Conflict-