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 Roman Empire disintegration

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Caro
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Caro

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PostSubject: Roman Empire disintegration   Roman Empire disintegration EmptyTue 01 Oct 2019, 02:30

I am sure we have had many threads on the history of the Roman Empire but I am reading a book called The Medieval Centuries which despite its title begins with the 2nd century AD. This book by Denis Hay written in 1953 and obviously part of my university stage I history course begins by saying that despite received wisdom and the Roman's own idea at the time the idea that the Empire collapsed suddenly under the invasion of the "barbarians from Germany and the central Asian plains" is wrong. "In fact the Romans of the third century deluded themselves. The outward structure of their society was to some extent preserved, its inward spirit was already dead. The wonder is not that the Empire finally disappeared but that it managed to survive for so long." 
He seems to be saying that Rome by that time was not a trading place, but survived mostly on usury. It had earlier been a conqueror where its main motive was products - weapons, precious metals, slaves. But by the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD taxes were collected with less efficiency and more corruption, "fatal for a commercial, let alone an industrial economy. But Rome had never known either. Commerce was largely concerned with luxuries...and land exploited in big estates worked - very inefficiently - by slaves; but only a handful of great landowners regarded their estates as economic enterprises..." He said the Roman roads, often quoted as evidence of Roman grandeur, are pathetic monuments to a society which knew little real trade. "The borders were protected by enlisting the barbarous tribes on the frontiers and the regular forces were concentrated on for garrison duties in the vulnerable towns. Paid now in doles of flour and wine, the "Roman" soldier was usually not Roman or even Italian by descent."  He praises some of the general-emperors but "their attitude to the decrepit society they were called upon to govern was essentially military." Caste systems took over and even the army was provided by "rough provincials, wild warriors from the perimeter of the Empire." He also praises some of the emporor notably Diocletian and Constantine. 

 He says it survived mostly because of its language and religion. (Not literature, but the language itself which spread to other areas.) And Christianity grew from appealing to Jewish people to other areas of the Mediterranean. He then goes on to explain how this happened, even mentioning Mithras, who I had never heard of before the thread on it. He puts its force down to the Edict of Milan mostly and the acceptance of the Nicene Creed. 

Is this still an accepted view?
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Roman Empire disintegration   Roman Empire disintegration EmptyTue 01 Oct 2019, 10:15

I hadn't come across Denys Hay's book before - sounds just the kind of historical analysis that appeals to me most, and well done to Hay for being so far ahead of the sociological revisionist posse in 1953. And he liked Diocletian too!

Any economic analysis of imperial Rome has to acknowledge (as Diocetian also did) that it was a complete basket case - everything from how wealth was created to how it was distributed and all points in between pointed to the state's imminent destruction, and Hay is correct to surmise that the real achievement was in keeping the thing chugging along as a viable entity for as long as it did.

I see on the 'net that the book was originally called "From Roman Empire to Renaissance Europe", and was changed by a publisher in 1964. The old title sounded perfectly adequate and I'm not sure the new one is much better. However his view that Christianity (which incidentally was indebted to much of Diocletian's revised power structures which it adopted hook, line and sinker, despite doing such a consistent and prolonged hatchet job on the man's reputation later) was the sole unifying denominator among European states up to medieval times sounds a little too simplistic so I look forward to reading the book myself and seeing if this particular summary (I read it on the publisher Routledge's site) is fair.

Milan and Nicea were certainly major steps towards establishing the Christian church as a major political force as well as sorting out its internal theological differences, so I can't see how anyone would contradict this view, if that's what Hay also maintained. Emphasis on this political aspect to the church's growth and acquisition of power and influence has certainly been judged as "revisionist" in historical circles over the last few decades (and even dismissed on that basis though never with well argued cause) but I've always personally reckoned such emphasis is entirely justified in any honest historical assessment of Christianity, and if Hay beat the revisionists to the post in adopting the same attitude way back in '53 then fair play to him.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Roman Empire disintegration   Roman Empire disintegration EmptyTue 01 Oct 2019, 21:19

Caro and nordmann,

I will try to buy the book from Denys Hay, because, as nordmann said it so colourful, he seems to be ahead of the sociological revisionist posse of 1953.
I have still to read the two books I mentioned in
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1403-merovingian-monasteries-motor-of-wealth


MM, Nielsen and LiR,
I read now through the thread on Passion Histoire about the decline of the Western Roman empire in the 5th century, some say collapse and fully related with the thesis I mentioned here. On the French thread they speak about Peter Brown: The world of Late Antiquity
https://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Late-Antiquity-European-Civilization/dp/0500330220
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brown_(historian)
From him I read also:
https://www.amazon.com/Body-Society-Renunciation-Christianity-Columbia/dp/0231144075
The body and society: Men, women, and sexual renunciation in early Christianity.
I discussed it with the late Canadian endocrinologue, while I was surprised with the similarities with what we learned in the religion lessons in a Catholic college Ostend in the late Fifties. The name escapes me now, but he was till his death on Jiglu...Can find it back if someone wants...
And that new book is a welcome addition to what I already mentioned:
http://theses.gla.ac.uk/1373/1/1991samsonphd.pdf
The Residences of Potentiores in Gaul and Germania in the Fifth to Mid-Ninth century and:
http://bit.do/eZMzG
The Merovingian Kingdoms 450 - 751 by Ian Wood
https://www.amazon.com/Merovingian-Kingdoms-450-751/dp/0582493722
And I would say about the controversy about continuity or collapse: rather a "transformation"...
I will try to mix this with the French thread and see what the honourable contributors say there...

For those, who understand French, I want to reply especially to Pédro, who seems to be a bit tired of all the balderdash as from a Spanding and consorts. see message 1 July 2019.
And as such, when I enter the thread again, I have to come with something reasonable and supported by serious historians. And as I have not yet read the two books in depth...always lacking time...

I studied already the centuries mentioned by Denys Hay for the French board (and also Historum) in connection with the Litus Saxonicum and the Roman settlements in the Low Countries of that time. So I learned a bit the evolution that you described from the book. And as I see it this book will be a welcome introduction for the later centuries, as indeed it all started already in the second one. I will see if I can obtain the book second hand on internet with the help of the granddaughter. Or perhaps one can read it on academia.edu or on Jstor.

nordmann, I think it all started with Gibbon Wink
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Decline_and_Fall_of_the_Roman_Empire
and I have the impression that that sociological revisionist posse, I don't know who you design by that, has brought a new more in depth researched vision, that rebuked the "fall" theory?

Kind regards to both from Paul.
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