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 Sword tradition

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Anglo-Norman
Consulatus
Anglo-Norman

Posts : 278
Join date : 2012-04-24

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PostSubject: Sword tradition   Sword tradition EmptyWed 23 May 2012, 10:09

I realise the following is a very specific question, and possibly requires a specific expertise, but research has failed to turn anything up and I'm reluctant to join another, specialist forum just to ask one question:

Those of you who have seen the Changing of the Guard ceremony (at least the one in Windsor - I assume it's the same in London) will know that at certain points the officers parade up and down in front of their men, holding their drawn swords. Reputedly this dates back to the 18th century, and was done before battle to demonstrate they weren't drunk! No idea if that's true. However, I was puzzled by the fact that with the Irish Guards they carried their sword just above the hilt, rather than by the grip. I asked a former Grenadier Guards acquaintance of mine, who confirmed this is a tradition specific to the Irish Guards, but did not know the reason for it.

I'd love to have an explaination for this seemingly rather hazardous activity - after all, the blades are sharp! - so I'm turning to the knowledgeable company here for help.
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Islanddawn
Censura
Islanddawn

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Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Greece

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PostSubject: Re: Sword tradition   Sword tradition EmptyWed 23 May 2012, 10:23

Interesting question AN. I can't help I'm afraid, know nothing about swords or how to hold them except that you use the pointy end! But I'd like to know the answer now that you've asked.

Pity Catigern hasn't been around lately, he seems to be a historical military/weapons expert and may be able to provide information.
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nordmann
Nobiles BarbariƦ
nordmann

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Join date : 2011-12-25

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PostSubject: Re: Sword tradition   Sword tradition EmptyWed 23 May 2012, 11:49

Holding the sword by the ricasso is not peculiar to the Irish Guards, I don't think. I have definitely seen this style of presentation in other countries.

What might be relevant to the Irish Guards' adoption of the style is that it was also the style used by the Royal Irish Constabulary on parade duty. It is very possible that the custom transferred with personnel originally drilled by the RIC when the Irish Guards regiment was set up after the Boer War?

Only guessing ...

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Anglo-Norman
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Anglo-Norman

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Join date : 2012-04-24

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PostSubject: Re: Sword tradition   Sword tradition EmptyWed 23 May 2012, 16:52

nordmann wrote:
Holding the sword by the ricasso is not peculiar to the Irish Guards, I don't think. I have definitely seen this style of presentation in other countries.

Perhaps. However, I've seen the Guard Change at Windsor numerous times, and I've never noticed officers from any other Guards (or indeed Line) regiments carrying their sword in that manner.

The possible RIC connection is an interesting one.
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Vizzer
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Vizzer

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PostSubject: Re: Sword tradition   Sword tradition EmptyTue 20 Sep 2022, 23:16

nordmann wrote:
What might be relevant to the Irish Guards' adoption of the style is that it was also the style used by the Royal Irish Constabulary on parade duty.

It does seem to be quite rarified even within the Irish Guards because I’ve only knowingly seen officers of that regiment holding drawn swords by the handle. It could be that it applies only to some officers and then only on specific occasions.

Some of the peculiarities of the military are fascinating. For instance during the BBC’s coverage of the state funeral of Queen Elizabeth yesterday, David Dimbleby mentioned that the Grenadier Guards don’t ever drink a toast to the monarch because their loyalty is undoubted. This reminded me of story an acquaintance told me years ago. He was an officer on the Queen’s Own Hussars and was talking about the time he spent in West Berlin in the 1980s. At that time the 3 Western Allies (French, British and American) lived in close proximity to each other in the divided city and they would often entertain each other socially in their respective zones.

On one such occasion the newly-arrived Hussars were invited by the officers of a US Army battalion to a formal dinner. When it came time for toasts and anthems, the American mess president proposed a first toast, all stood and the American officer said “Gentlemen, the Queen” while the band played God Save The Queen. The Hussars, however, immediately sat down as the words “the Queen” were uttered and began chatting among themselves to the shock and bewilderment of their still-standing hosts. Once the bars of GSTQ had finished, the Colonel of the Hussars then proposed a second toast to the President of the United States. All the Hussars now stood up ramrod and loudly toasted the President and respectfully remained at attention while the band played the bars of The Star-Spangled Banner. It then fell to the Colonel to explain to his puzzled American counterpart that the regiment was excused both the loyal toast and standing during the royal anthem as privileges earned for services rendered to King George II and unquestioned loyalty shown during the 1745 Jacobite Rebellion.

Another peculiarity highlighted yesterday, although not necessarily a military one (except, perhaps in a Tolkienesque way), was the ‘breaking of the wand’ by the Lord Chamberlain at the very end of proceedings. This was billed as being the first time it had been televised. It’s not clear, however, how old this practice is. The last time it occurred was in 1952 when Lord Clarendon (the then Lord Chamberlain) ended his term in office upon the death of King George VI. Prior to that, however, the Earl of Cromer remained Lord Chamberlain during the latter part of the reign of King George V, thru the short reign of King Edward VIII and into the reign of King George VI.
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