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 Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 14:51

Very welcome, LadyinRetirement!

I think that if PG said that 4+4 made 5 or that Iceland was in the Pacific Ocean, all her fans would agree. Have we been unfair to her on this thread, do you think? I hope we haven't - but if I'm honest, I don't care if we have. The woman's arrogance is beyond endurance. Hilary Mantel, on the other hand, who is a genius, is the most unassuming of people. Never claims to be Dr Mantel the Historian either - grrr.

And I hope you will post some more. Are you fond of Richard III? There's me, Minette and Gran who are; the rest of the mob around here don't believe he ever existed. Smile

EDIT: I put a comma instead of a semi-colon.


Last edited by Temperance on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 16:24; edited 1 time in total
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 14:53

Crossed posts!

Nordmann is the Boss, LiR: he is our Eternal Leader and is also known as the Benevolent One (sometimes).Smile 
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 14:55

I never said he never existed - simply that the poor nun they dug up in Leicester is deserving of a little respect (personally I think she should be buried in York Cathedral - that'll teach them northerners).
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 15:15

Mmm, Sister Mary Richard, Nordmann? 

Welcome LadyinRetirement and I agree, the lady is a fraud.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 15:27

Hello All,

Temperance, if I'm honest I have experienced some wicked glee reading the spikey comments here about PG. The comment I made about fairness was regarding myself as I haven't read her books and don't think I particularly want to. Maybe shooting Ms G is a tad extreme - one doesn't have to love her though. As for Richard III, I read Josephine Tey's "Daughter of Time" many years ago.  I thought it was a good light read but that was all. It's hard for me to judge how good or bad he was so I guess I'm "on the fence". I don't take Shakespeare's history plays as fact - but considering Henry VII's grand-daughter was on the throne for most of his working life I can understand why he went with the version of history that would keep the then sovereign happy as people could still be deprived of their heads then..
Nordmann, I hadn't considered the point you made. Just have to hope that doesn't come to fruition.
I am logging off now but will come this way again
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 16 Sep 2013, 15:33

Of course we know he existed Temps - we just wonder why he bothered.
 Welcome to LIR. it's quite a friendly p lace really - even when we disagree. People who get miffy can get free handknitted miffs at the bar: also  biodegradable huffs  for anger in short spells. Apply for High Dugeons by pigeon post.

Minette and I have wonky spelling it be noted.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 16:24

Do I need to mind my ps and qs around Nordmann if he's the main man, then?  Nothing to do with the Boss Man, but this afternoon I was at the first meeting since July of a sub-group of the local U3A I belong to [not a history group].   The group leader asked what we'd been doing and I mentioned that I had had my TV fixed after quite some time and then made a quip about that now I could watch tosh like "The White Queen".  A very nice lady who is a retired languages teacher was adamant that the book was better than the show - I said something about it being inaccurate - she said that Ms PG does loads of research and that she's quite open that she bends the facts in her books.  I must admit that is not my understanding of the case but I didn't want to start an argument so just said Ms PG is not my cup of tea.  But it appears that there are clever people who are great fans of Ms PG.  I think I shall have to take Temperance's advice from earlier in the thread to go and lie in a darkened room.  I do indeed have a headache at present but to be fair to Ms PG I think that is due to sinusitis.

I did preview this before  posting but realised belatedly that "made a quip about that" is very bad English.  Could I write bad enough English to write a historical  "romp" and make pots of money I wonder? Mmmm................
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 18:01

Of course, but first you must do loads and loads of meticulous research - enough to regard yourself as an "expert for hire" for Channel 5 - and then blithely ignore it all. (Tip: Don't introduce the bodice until the third chapter)

Oh - and inconsistencies, loads of inconsistencies! Spot this one from "The White Queen"

"At the threshold he turns and takes my hand. He
bows his fair head low and, deliciously, turns my hand. He presses a kiss into my palm
and folds my fingers over the kiss as if to keep it safe. When he comes up smiling, I see
that he knows perfectly well that this gesture has made me melt and that I will keep my
hand clasped until bedtime when I can put it to my mouth. He looks down at my entranced face, at my hand that stretches, despite myself, to touch his sleeve."

Oh, dem hands. Washed 'em today and now they just won't behave!
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 18:14

LadyinRetirement wrote:
Do I need to mind my ps and qs around Nordmann if he's the main man, then? 
Gawd no, LIR. That'd be no fun at all Smile
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 18:38

Nordmann's quotation has made me go all shivery. I feel a song coming on:



The bloke with the guitar isn't exactly Keith Richards, is he?
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 18:42

Well Nordmann, Ms PG does aver that Elizabeth Woodville was magic so maybe she could do two contrary things at once and the object of her affection by association was able to be up and down simultaneously.  Well, the darkened room suggested by Temperance beckons - maybe I will get inspiration for my money-spinner while I'm there.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyTue 17 Sep 2013, 19:44

Won't delete above, but this perhaps goes better with the quotation.



If you thought The White Queen was a bit soppy, just wait till you see The White Princess.

It's a corker (not that I've read it).

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 10:06

I should explain that the title of this thread was inspired by the presence on the web of a US-based blog called "Should Philippa Gregory Really Be Shot?". This was a heartfelt attempt by a fan to challenge what she then experienced as massively unwarranted criticism of her favourite (favorite?) author that she saw as just a little too prolific on the net at the time. She made an impassioned defence (defense?) of Gregory's style and ouvre (bilge?) and invited the world to rally to her cause. When her comments section was immediately inundated by mainly British responders who all contributed with variations of a simple "yes" by way of an answer to her question she closed it down. Some even suggested that the execution be facilitated by sharing intelligence about her movements - which even to me seemed slightly too great a step from the ironic and sardonic to the moronic and downright litigious. I went looking for the link but can't even find a cached version of it.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 10:35

There is a young lady on Youtube who put up a couple of videos (posted about two years ago) on the topic "Why P___  G_______ sucks" - I think "sucks" is American slang conveying that something is not very good.  The poster makes some valid points (though she does use the "f" word which is mildly shocking to staid old me).   She seemed to have mixed reactions to her video ranging from persons saying how dare she criticise the fragrant Ms PG to other folk who agreed with her.

Nordman (and I do apologise if I am telling you something you already know) - both of your alternative spellings are correct depending where you live - "favourite" being British English, "favorite" being American English.   The same applies respectively to "defence"/"defense".  I have often seen examples of American spelling used by British people in latter years (I think they have not changed their computer spell-checkers to UK English from American English).  Mind you a young lady who typed a menu offering "plumb pudding" used a spelling that was wrong in both American and UK English in that she went for the spelling as in "plumb line" rather than "plum" the fruit.


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sat 25 Jan 2014, 15:39; edited 1 time in total
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 10:40

Plum puddings are heavy enough. Plumb pudding however .... (shudder)

Peter Cook was once presented with that very point concerning alternate spellings of words between Britain and the USA, namely that both are correct depending on where one lived. He responded in the affirmative saying this was completely true. If one lived in America then one version was of course quite correct, if one lived however where people could actually speak English then the correct spelling was correct.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 10:51

I don't want to go too far off topic - which after all is the "divine" Ms PG - but, while I hate to say so, I suppose the American version of "got" i.e. "gotten" is more historically correct than the version we use nowadays in Blightey "got".  As you will be well aware we use the phrase "ill-gotten gains" still though it is rather archaic and we still use "-gotten" in compounds of "got" e.g.  " I have forgotten".  We are not likely to say "Charlie was begotten of Eddie" these days though.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 10:58

They have a few archaic words ("Fall" for example is just what lower society types in 17th century England would have said when referring to Autumn). This does not however excuse "tire" as descriptive of an inflatable rubber wheel protector or "fanny pack", which we had better just leave without embellishment.

I gave up trying to explain to them why "I could care less" was the exact bloody opposite to what they were trying to convey, using semantic parsing and logic in as much as they could understand it. They nodded obligingly and even expressed verbal sympathy for my obvious plight - marooned in a land where everyone and everything they said were just a notch away from actually making sense and therefore made no sense whatsoever - but I reckon they really couldn't have cared less.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 18 Sep 2013, 12:05

I suppose strictly speaking in my earlier post I should have specified I was referring to the past participle of "got".   I've never been to the USA (though I would very much like to see the Grand Canyon before I depart the planet) so my knowledge of American English is largely derived from American TV programmes, though I have worked with a few American people in my time.  One American young lady who had married an Englishman (hope I'm not being coarse here) used to burst out laughing at "knickers" for ladies' unmentionables, as they are, I believe, knee-breeches in the USA.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 01 Nov 2013, 09:10

Be afraid .... be very afraid.  I was looking at a different website about another topic yesterday and read that the American (I think) company that were behind "The White Queen" were in negotiations with Mrs PG to produce "The White Queen Part II".  The good news was that the BBC only ever signed up for one series and wouldn't be involved in the sequel ... that doesn't mean that the programme won't be shown on British TV of course.   What a wonderful invention the TV remote control is ... I can switch off programmes I don't like without leaving the comfort of my chair ... before anybody jumps down my throat I know inventions are a different thread .... and of course I don't have to tune into a programme I think will be a "turkey" in the first place.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 19:24

Title changed as ordered politely requested by the PG Web Team  Cheers

Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 Gregor10
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 19:59

Why don't you rename the thread 'should Philippa Gregory be strenuously persuaded give up writing such bilge?'
Dear Lord, have they nothing better to do than - oh hang on, trawling the web for perceived 'threats' must beat reading her stuff.  'Unjust' is a strange word to use; I might suggest that the sentiment expressed in the title might, at a stretch, be considered by the paranoid to be a tiny bit extreme but the choice of that particular word suggests that, were her books somewhat worse, it would in fact be perfectly just.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 20:03

Oh my, what an aggressive and threatening missive that is also.  affraid

Edit. Not yours ferval, the other one.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 20:12

Gosh they're a bit "up" themselves!  Not much sense of humour there.  This thread had gone quiet but the PG team have awoken it. If they'd ignored it then it might have faded away.

They might have taken the time to capitalise "Sirs" in "Dear Sirs"....
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 20:26

Nordmann,


We don't live in a sack ("we leven in geen zak": our dialect expres​sion(I found on the entire world wide web only one!! entry with that expression pale )): expression for "we have to be aware that we don't live in isolation and that all our deeds are watched. We use still also the expression from WWII, when we want to warn to not let it heard in public: "Feind hört mit" (the enemy listens in (is monitoring??)...

But one thinks with such an harmless ironic title...but fanclubs  can be sectarian...or is that also too strong a word...?

Kind regards and with esteem,

Paul.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyThu 09 Jan 2014, 20:44

I thought first that it might be sufficient to change it to "Philippa Gregory - should she not be shot?". However since the "Web Team" obviously are not actually so web-savvy as to understand the original reference this I fear would simply have accelerated them all the more in the direction of Messrs Slow & Bideawhile.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 10 Jan 2014, 08:48

A pal once advised me to "keep off religion and politics" if I didn't want to have arguments with people. Perhaps she should have added "and Philippa Gregory".  I have come across people who consider Mrs Gregory's works to be masterpieces - not stupid people (some with degrees, though not history degrees).  When I've queried her accuracy they say "but she does loads of research". Of course I do not know Mrs Gregory as a person so I cannot comment on her character - I can just say her books aren't "my cup of tea".  My understanding is that Mrs PG was a journalist who turned to writing fiction so possibly she does have the ability to spin a yarn that intrigues certain readers.  I was wondering if the problem is that history is perhaps not taught as well as it should be in schools?  (Here I would not blame the teachers but would blame the way successive governments have interfered with the education system). I'm sure I mentioned earlier in the thread that when I saw an extract from "The White Queen" I thought something didn't tally with my recollection of my dim and distant school history lessons.  There does seem to be a fashion currently [when adapting sources] for chopping and changing things both pertaining to "real" history and to myths and fictional works. For example the TV series "Merlin" (which I enjoyed in a "guilty pleasure" kind of a way) bore little resemblance to the Puffin Book by Roger Lancelyn-Green about King Arthur and his knights that I enjoyed as a child (the Puffin Book didn't mention Mordred being a product of incest - being a book for children).  The Jerry Bruckheimer film "King Arthur" likewise differed from the source material - I didn't like that film.  I suspect that the recent series "Atlantis" would have a classical scholar reaching for the smelling salts [do they make smelling salts anymore?].  If Bram Stoker was alive would he reach for the smelling salts if he saw the way they have changed his "Dracula" story - they've made Lucy gay!!! (N.B.  I am not homophobic but I don't like it when people try to be clever-clever by changing source material radically). 

Hope this wasn't too long but will just add before leaving the thread that Nordmann has managed to comply with the "Web Team's" request without seemingly quaking too much in his boots.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 10 Jan 2014, 09:11

The notion that one does "lots of research" only to then blithely ignore what one has learnt during that exercise is not one that would recommend a person to even the most lax of academic institutions. It might be deemed acceptable by certain people with regard to historical research ("certain" probably meaning very "uncertain" people in this respect) but let us simply thank our lucky stars that the same attitude is not adopted by nuclear physicists, surgeons and plane designers.

I am not exactly sure what a "web team" is, Lir, or whether one should wear quake-proof boots when in receipt of messages from one. However the request, however badly worded and written (now why did that surprise me?) is in fact reasonable, I feel. We would not want a repeat of that whole sad Salman Rushdie episode again, would we? You know what those historical fundamentalists are like - one word from their spiritual leader Starkey and they'd all be out oiling their rusty arquebuses with mad glints in their eyes!

(Can one oil anything with a glint, however mad it is? Not sure. I'll check Ms Gregory's ouvre for verification).
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 10 Jan 2014, 09:38

I know, I need to get out more, but I was curious about PG's 'web team' so googled a bit. Her website was constructed by 'Betterbrand' agency and here's a quote from their blog.

Our Blog

That means poking your head above the parapet to get shot at.
We have opinions and ideas we'd like to share so here's our most
recent blog posts


Ironic or what? But then PG and her devotees don't really do irony, do they?



http://www.betterbrandagency.com/2013/09/better-featured-in-net-magazine-for-work-on-philippa-gregory-official-website/
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 10 Jan 2014, 18:04

We need an appropriate song, but I'd better not...

Quake Your Booty perhaps.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 10 Jan 2014, 19:25

I note the PG site also has the headline 'Contributing to the Conversation. That's Better'.

As you say ferval, they obviously don't do irony.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 11 Jan 2014, 08:11

Nordmann alluded to not wanting another Salman Rushdie incident.  I'm sure that the kerfuffle about the "Satanic Verses" resulted in more people buying that book than would have done so otherwise.  This thread had gone quiet and might have stayed thus had not the PG web team sent their "request".  There has been a flurry of activity on this thread over the last few days which would not have happened without the name of the thread having been changed. I don't think any of us in reality intended to sneak into one of Mrs G's talks with our arquebuses concealed about us. I did think the tidbit earlier in the thread about "real" historians infiltrating her talks was funny. I followed the link to the PG site where there was some mention of an essay by Mrs G "History -v- Herstory".  I've not read the essay but I recall when I did History "A" level at night school the tutor said "Think of it (history) as man his story, woman her story", so it's not like Mrs G is the first person to think of that ...... Also "The White Queen" TV series was nominated for Golden Globe awards. They are American awards and have definitely gone down in my estimation now. (I think last year "Breaking Bad" which I haven't seen won the lion's share of the awards). It does surprise me that more of the general public don't notice the inaccuracies but then I know next to nothing about football except one team of players  kick a ball one way and the other kick it towards a goal the other way so somebody could tell me a load of rot  about football and I might believe them. I hate football but  I'd  rather watch it than a re-run (better not tempt Providence) of  "The White Queen".
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 11 Jan 2014, 09:27

This thread is becoming a bit like a chocolate box for me - I know I shouldn't but I keep coming back.

Memo to self:  Trace and cut out pattern for fleece thingy that has been in my fabric stash since Autumn 2012
Fit the new cat flap have had for x-z months
In the interests of fairness try and read a full PG novel to make own assessment - thus far have only read extracts (which haven't been to my taste or prompted me to read the whole kaboodle of her work).

Will report back to forum on how the third part of memo goes.  Before I ever realised there was controversy about Mrs Gregory's work I did flick through some of her novels at the library to see if they might do as light reads (I loved Dostoevsky when I was younger but I don't want to read hefty tomes like that all the time).  What I skimmed did not appeal to me.  Then I love (mostly) Dr Paul Docherty [Doherty??]'s historical who-dunnits.  He does have a Master's degree in History.  They are faithful to the spirit of the period though I don't think Dr Docherty  claims that everything panned out exactly as it did in his murder mysteries [he uses fictional characters as well as historical ones]; for instance I don't think there is actually any evidence that Isabelle (Edward II's Queen) was abused by her brothers {Dr Docherty was trying to find a reason why Isabelle "had it in" for her brothers, like when she later revealed her sister-in-laws' adultery}.  Anyway, I'm not going to the library today but will report back on my reading experiment in due course - though it may not be next week or even the week after.  I've never watched "Downton Abbey" because it really has never appealed to me [and one actor forenamed Julian's implication that people like myself are too dim to appreciate Shakespeare has NOT endeared the series which is his "baby" to me] but then can I really say I don't like it never having viewed it? When I was in my (early-ish) teens I read the late Dennis Wheatley's historical novels and (maybe more my mid-teens) Frank Yerby's, neither of which I think would be considered to be fare for study at a University. but I just grew out of them as I got older.  So ..... in time I'll let you know whether my reading experiment confirms my present feelings about Mrs G or whether unexpectedly I go all "fangirl" on her.  I know which I think is more likely but you can never tell the future ......


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sat 25 Jan 2014, 15:32; edited 1 time in total
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 11 Jan 2014, 10:14

I'm reading about Henry VIII's Treason Act of 1534 at the moment which stated that it was treason to:

"maliciously wish, will or desire by words or writing, or by craft imagine, invent, practise, or attempt any bodily harm to be done or committed to the king's most royal person, the queen's or the heirs apparent [Elizabeth], or to deprive them of any of their dignity, title or name of their royal estates, or slanderously and maliciously publish and pronounce, by express writing or words, that the king should be heretic, schismatic, tyrant, infidel or usurper of the crown..."

I think Parliament had to fight long and hard to get the word "maliciously" included - there had to be proof of "evil intent".

But "malicious" or not,  just thinking - "imagining" - what you'd like to do to Henry became a capital offence. One of Cromwell's nastier bits of legislation. Orwellian stuff - and not very English. "It was," said Lord Montague at the time, "a strange world as words were made treason."

The Act was repealed as soon as the old king died.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 11 Jan 2014, 11:37

Temp, I was going to try and "private message" you but I've quite forgotten how - not because there is anything terribly secretive about my query.  I'm trying to ban myself at least temporarily from this thread but I wondered where do you find out about all the books you read about history - not just that one referenced above?  Do you just find them "on spec" in your local library - if so I think you have more selection as regards historical "fact" books in your local than I have in mine (not that I've gone through the selection with a fine tooth comb recently).  Since getting internet access at home about 18 months ago I have tended to look things up on the internet whereas before I would have gone to the reference section of the library.  I've seen a few books recommended on blogs that I want to try - not necessarily pertaining to the War of the Roses but the books you reference as belonging to your reading matter are different again.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 11 Jan 2014, 12:06

I buy a lot of books, LiR. In fact I'm thinking of leaving my collection of Tudor/Richard III material to the nation. Seriously, it is an addiction for me. I love bookshops. Amazon though has been my downfall: I'm a bit like an alcoholic let loose in a giant liquor store on that site. I buy a lot of historical DVDs, too.

I'm not good with the concept of delayed gratification - ie going to the library and then having to wait about three weeks until a book becomes available. I want what I want when I want it, I'm afraid  Embarassed . That satisfying click on the "Place order now" button, knowing the desired reading matter will be delivered next day, is always too great a temptation for me. I'd rather have books than butter, you see. But there are worse vices, and I don't think this one will kill me.

EDIT: Sorry - you actually asked where do I find out about the books to read...

From books - bibliographies and lists of sources. Bookshops. Reviews in the papers. People. Sites like our Res Historica...

EDIT: added a comma. Will probably remove it later.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 09 May 2014, 15:23

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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 14 May 2014, 09:02

Triceratops wrote:
The latest news about Wolf Hall;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27323119
Is the source novel worth a read?  I've heard differing opinions.  Some people really like Hilary Mantel; others say that she does a hatchet job on Anne Boleyn to make Cromwell look more sympathetic?  Has anybody read this book and have an opinion about it?
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 14 May 2014, 10:03

It doesn't seem right discussing a real author on this thread but I can only say that I enjoyed Wolf Hall and didn't think that Hilary Mantel either sanitised Cromwell or demonised Boleyn to any significant degree. Both characters in her story have good and bad about them and where each side is revealed it fits the narrative in terms of their motives having already been presented, sometimes with extremely clever subtlety - it's one of those books that if you have read it once and then re-read it in light of what you have learnt a lot of stuff reveals itself which you might have missed first time round.

This as opposed to Gregory's stories which simply reveal their structural flaws if one is silly enough to repeat the exercise.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyWed 14 May 2014, 10:11

nordmann wrote:
It doesn't seem right discussing a real author on this thread .

Mea Culpa; saw the news article on the BBC site and posted it on the first thread I could think of.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 16 May 2014, 04:57

All of Wolf Hall (more or les) was seen through the eyes of Cromwell in a novelistic way - first-person narratives (which this was in fact if not in the words used) do tend to bolster the narrator. But, while the reader did have their sympathy with Cromwell, it was a muted sympathy with his obvious ruthlessness seen clearly.  Anne Boleyn read much as I have heard her described in other books, fact and fiction.

No time to wander this site (our computer has gone kaput and I am using my husband''s work one and we are just off home now) so will say here I am away to Britain tomorrow morning.  Four days in London then a day in Brighton, then a week in Cornwell with all our family.  And another 5 weeks after that. And 8 days on Britrail passes, probably one to Aberdeen. Maybe one to south Wales. 

We don't need tube strikes or heatwaves or disappearing aeroplanes or snarl-ups on the motorways, please.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 16 May 2014, 09:30

Caro wrote:
a week in Cornwell
Caro :
You'll have to look Sharpe!  Fighting
Unless you mean Patricia? Rolling Eyes 

Have a good trip!
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 16 May 2014, 18:06

Caro wrote:
All of Wolf Hall (more or les) was seen through the eyes of Cromwell in a novelistic way - first-person narratives (which this was in fact if not in the words used) do tend to bolster the narrator. But, while the reader did have their sympathy with Cromwell, it was a muted sympathy with his obvious ruthlessness seen clearly.  Anne Boleyn read much as I have heard her described in other books, fact and fiction.

No time to wander this site (our computer has gone kaput and I am using my husband''s work one and we are just off home now) so will say here I am away to Britain tomorrow morning.  Four days in London then a day in Brighton, then a week in Cornwell with all our family.  And another 5 weeks after that. And 8 days on Britrail passes, probably one to Aberdeen. Maybe one to south Wales. 

We don't need tube strikes or heatwaves or disappearing aeroplanes or snarl-ups on the motorways, please.


Yes Caro, have a good trip.

Your Belgian friend, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyFri 16 May 2014, 19:11

BTW - never did buy the "history / herstory" business myself, partly because the false etymology makes my hackles rise, partly because I find it an inelegant and unnecessary neologism, mostly because it postulates what I consider a fraudulent dichotomy, but perhaps it provides a partial answer. Let us re-label PG as a herstorian. That way there is no possible implication of accuracy in her scribblings.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 12 Jul 2014, 11:45

Is there any way of knowing for certain which Boleyn sister was the elder?  I've always thought Mary B was the elder but I read something (sorry can't find the link now) recently which stated that it was hard to establish for certain that she was.  The fact that Mary B was stated to be the elder sister wasn't the reason I disliked Mrs G's novel about her though - I was irritated that Mrs G thought the public at large was so historically unaware that they (it? [public being singular - memory on the grammatical rule has gone a bit hazy]) would not know Anne B had a sister (so I was probably predisposed not to care for the book).  The little that I have experienced of Mrs G's writing style is not to my taste and I really thought she did a hatchet job on Anne B.  I don't necessarily think Anne B was all sweetness and light, very likely not, but not the monster depicted by Mrs G.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 12 Jul 2014, 13:53

Professor Eric Ives is the Anne Boleyn expert; he confirms that there has been a long-running historical dispute about the date of Anne's birth and the relative ages of her brother and sister. However, he notes that Mary Boleyn's grandson, Lord Hunsdon, petitioned in 1597 for the Boleyn earldom of Ormonde on the ground that his grandmother had been the elder sister. As Ives points out, if Anne had been senior to Mary, any claim to the earldom belonged to her daughter, Elizabeth I, not her sister's heirs. On such a delicate matter, Hunsdon must have been pretty sure of his ground. Ives concludes therefore that Mary was indeed the elder of the two girls.

Ives actually puts Anne's date of birth around 1501 (not 1507 as some historians have claimed): Mary, he suggests, was born in 1499.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySat 12 Jul 2014, 17:02

Oh thank you, Temperance.  I shall have to see if I can borrow Professor Ives' book from the library.


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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySun 09 Aug 2015, 19:51



Take cover, folks, here comes another one...........

Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 61OuViGQqnL._SX325_BO1,204,203,200_

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Taming-Queen-Philippa-Gregory/dp/1471132978
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySun 09 Aug 2015, 20:35

Oh crumbs Ferval - has the lady sort of filched (almost) a title from the playwright Nordmann called Willy Wobbleweapon (as in "The Taming of the Shrew").  Well, I for one won't be reading it though I'm sure that won't worry Mrs G as she laughs all the way to the bank.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptySun 09 Aug 2015, 21:05

Well, I for one won't be reading it though I'm sure that won't worry Mrs G as she laughs all the way to the bank.

So you're waiting for the TV version then? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 10 Aug 2015, 10:03

ferval wrote:
Well, I for one won't be reading it though I'm sure that won't worry Mrs G as she laughs all the way to the bank.

So you're waiting for the TV version then? Wink
Oh Ferval, will there be one?  It doesn't bear thinking about.  It would be ironic if this was a novel which didn't play fast and loose with the truth.  Radio 4 Extra did a couple of "What if" sort of series about crime-solving with the background of the days when Charles Dickens was a newspaper reporter called "Dickens Confidential" and I'm pretty sure they were made up and somehow they didn't irritate me the way I was put out when I tried to read a Mrs G book.
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PostSubject: Re: Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper?   Philippa Gregory - Philippa Gregory - historian or bodice-ripper? - Page 6 EmptyMon 10 Aug 2015, 10:27

Addendum:  I suppose TWQ when it was on TV (I watched about ten minutes of it) did provide work for some members of the acting profession for a while.  TWQ having been one of those programmes where it is much more fun to read the reviews than to watch the actual show, one critic observed that Rebecca - not the singer - Ferguson was attractive and that "even pretty girls have to eat".  I suppose it's true that not every actress can secure a gig playing Hedda Gabler every week.
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