I dont know if this would be the right place to place this...

I’ve been unable to partake in any of nordmanns quiz question this morning as I know nothing of French history… I’d at least guessed they were involved.

So I’d been googling trying to read up on the way the discussion was going… which lead me to ponder… if for any reason the French would like to restore their monarchy… is there anyone left of their royalty to be in line to the throne, or did they all get the chop. Or, did we inherit any into our royal family.

There are at least 4 pretenders to the French throne, one from the "Legitimist" branch of the old royals, one from the Orleanist branch, and rival (father and son) Bonapartists.

The French "aristocrats" never seem to get invited to our royal events, whereas the Greeks do. And the rather glamorous members of the family of ex-King Constantine of Greece, like Princess Marie-Chantel, are always appearing in "Hello" magazine (not that I ever read that publication, of course). I suppose the Greek ex-Royals are related to Prince Philip, so are seen as "family". Marie-Chantel's sister is married to Prince Alexander von Furstenburg - I have no idea who he is, but I expect he is a great-great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria.

King Constantine II apparently lives in Hampstead.

I wonder too about the Russians. Lots of rich Russians in London, of course, but are there any real aristocrats among them? Or did the Bolsheviks do a pretty good job of wiping them out?

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There are at least 4 pretenders to the French throne, one from the "Legitimist" branch of the old royals, one from the Orleanist branch, and rival (father and son) Bonapartists.

There’s also a Jacobite claim (based on descendents of Edward III of England’s claim to the French crown) going through James II of England, James Edward Stuart (the Old Pretender), Charles Edward Stuart (the Young Pretender, Bonnie Prince Charlie) and Henry Benedict Stuart (the Bonnie Prince’s brother), who died in 1807. These four all pursued their claim to the French throne – not necessarily the canniest of moves when they were also exiled from Britain. After 1807 I don’t think any of the Stuart line actively pursued their claim to the throne of France, but the line continued. Wiki gives the current heir from the Jacobite line as the Duke of Bavaria.

Living in France I’m regularly surprised how class-riddden French society is. It’s a long-established republic who beheaded much of its nobility, but now nearly everyone wants to be, or claims they are, part of la noblesse. People try to adopt double-barrelled surnames, or put "de" (ie of... like the German von) before their surname, or change their surname from, say, the more common Henri to the older spelling Henry etc. (This sort of thing is ripe for parody of course eg. in the film 'Les Visiteurs', the nouveau riche hotelier tries desperately to suppress his rather vulgar surname, Jacquouille, for the more refined sounding, Jacquard). And what is the first thing every socialist President does when he retires? Buys a huge chateau in a vast private estate and sets himself up as a comte or duc in all but name.

And they can’t seem to get enough Royalty. 'Paris Match' is certainly a notch, several notches in fact, above the likes of Hello! magazine, but its society pages are still full of the doings of the British Royal family… and all the other crowned (and uncowned) heads of Europe… including their own uncrowned French hopefuls. And they do have a sort of active French monarchy in Prince Albert of Monaco and all his Grimaldi family, who frequently get whole (fawning) articles devoted to them.

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The French "aristocrats" never seem to get invited to our royal events, whereas the Greeks do

I think French nobles rarely get invited to British Royal events for two reasons:

Firstly, France is a republic and while its citizens can use their titles as part of a surname the French state does not officially recognise aristocratic titles and thus I suspect it is a case of diplomatic protocol deeming it inappropriate for Britain to recognise them, unless they are closely related to the current British Royal family. That leads to the second point:

.... that, France dispensed with its monarchy and hereditary aristocracy in the 18/19th century well before nearly all other European states. And until the beginning of the 20th century France was generally regarded by Britain as a serious rival if not actually a foe. Nearly all the other european states remained monarchies, at least until after WW1. Inevitably these royal houses became related to the British Royals, many by directly marrying Queen Victoria’s children and grand-children. The current heirs apparent and claimants to many European states that are now republics eg. Germany, Russia, Greece, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Serbia etc.. are thus still quite closely related to Queen Liz... so they're family. The French aristocracy, generally, didn't have the connections to marry into the clique!

Temperance wrote:

The French "aristocrats" never seem to get invited to our royal events, whereas the Greeks do. And the rather glamorous members of the family of ex-King Constantine of Greece, like Princess Marie-Chantel, are always appearing in "Hello" magazine (not that I ever read that publication, of course). I suppose the Greek ex-Royals are related to Prince Philip, so are seen as "family". Marie-Chantel's sister is married to Prince Alexander von Furstenburg - I have no idea who he is, but I expect he is a great, great great grandson of Queen Victoria.

King Constantine II apparently lives in Hampstead?

King Constantine's sister, Sofia, is also Queen of Spain being married to Juan Carlos I. Isn't Prince Charles really friendly with the Spanish Royals? Anyway, this may explain (somewhat) why the Greek royal family is on good terms with the British compared to the French, Temp.

Queen Sofía is both a great-great-granddaughter (paternally) and a great-great-great-granddaughter (maternally) of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom and is, through several lines, her husband's third cousin. She is a first cousin of Ernst August of Hanover, and through her great-grandfather George I of Greece, she is a second cousin to Charles, Prince of Wales. Through Christian IX of Denmark and Queen Victoria, she is also related to Elizabeth II and thereby related to all the royal families of Europe. She is also a first cousin once removed of Elizabeth II's husband, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Queen Sofia is of Hohenzollern descent through her mother, Frederica of Hanover, and through her paternal grandmother, Sophia of Prussia, and of Romanov descent through her father's paternal grandmother, Olga Constantinovna of Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Sof%C3%ADa_of_Spain

Hi ID,

Thanks for that info about Queen Sofia. Gosh, I feel such a peasant!

Isn't there a Spanish duchess (very old lady, very, very rich, just married a much younger man) who is actually more royal - well, has more titles - than our Queen?

That would be Maria, duchess of Alba, otherwise known as: Doña María del Rosario Cayetana Paloma Alfonsa Victoria Eugenia Fernanda Teresa Francisca de Paula Lourdes Antonia Josefa Fausta Rita Castor Dorotea Santa Esperanza Fitz-James Stuart, Silva, Falcó y Gurtubay, 18th Duchess of Alba, 15th Duchess of Aliaga, 11th Duchess of Berwick, 17th Duchess of Híjar, 11th Duchess of Liria and Jérica, 11th Duchess of Montoro, 12th Countess-Duchess of Olivares, 17th Marquise of the Carpio, 10th Marquise of San Vicente del Barco, ….. this that and the other...... it goes on for more than 50 titles.

Needless to say she is related (usually several times over) to virtually every royal house and noble family in Europe. In October she married a Mr Alfonso Diez, who is 24 years her junior, much to the horror of the rest of her family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15183584

What wonderful accidental synergy, the box stating'Strong case for assisted dying' at the top right.

Temperance wrote:

Hi ID,

Thanks for that info about Queen Sofia. Gosh, I feel such a peasant!

I think I'd rather be a peasant any day Temp, all the Royals are too inbred!

On the subject of which… an interesting prog the other evening about the queens cousins locked away out of sight and mind for years in a mental institution… anyone see it, or make a comment on it. Many references to inbreeding there, and comments about three other royal family members with mental disorders in similar circumstances. I seem to remember reading a few articles about this a few years ago… I was surprised at the time it wasn’t hushed up as it didn’t show the royals in a very sympathetic light and quite right too.

Speaking to some friends in Australia the other day and they said the Danish royal family are considered to be the ‘father’ of all our royals… anything in it.

normanhurst wrote:

On the subject of which… an interesting prog the other evening about the queens cousins locked away out of sight and mind for years in a mental institution… anyone see it, or make a comment on it. Many references to inbreeding there, and comments about three other royal family members with mental disorders in similar circumstances. I seem to remember reading a few articles about this a few years ago… I was surprised at the time it wasn’t hushed up as it didn’t show the royals in a very sympathetic light and quite right too.

Speaking to some friends in Australia the other day and they said the Danish royal family are considered to be the ‘father’ of all our royals… anything in it.

Oh definitely badick, the Danish House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg have intermarried with just about every royal house in Europe. I think most European royals today are descended in some way from the Danish.

I had no idea, thanks…

As I understand it, Alfred becomes King of Wessex following the death of his brother Aethelred and I have it that QE II is the 32nd great granddaughter of King Alfred who 1,140 years ago was the first effective King of England who ruled from 871 to 899. He seems to have spent his life fighting the Danes, so where do they fit into the present day royal family…

Please forgive my ignorance, I’m having to relearn so many things… but I’m getting better, I hope.

normanhurst wrote:

I had no idea, thanks…

As I understand it, Alfred becomes King of Wessex following the death of his brother Aethelred and I have it that QE II is the 32nd great granddaughter of King Alfred who 1,140 years ago was the first effective King of England who ruled from 871 to 899. He seems to have spent his life fighting the Danes, so where do they fit into the present day royal family…

Please forgive my ignorance, I’m having to relearn so many things… but I’m getting better, I hope.

Not to worry bandick, we are both learning here.

The Danish connection doesn't go back to the Vikings, it is a very modern one really. The descent mainly begins with King Christian IX of Denmark who ruled from 1863 to 1906 and who married his 6 children into Europe's Royal Houses. There is list of where the various children married about half way down the page of this link, Alexandra who married Edward VII was also one of his daughters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_IX_of_Denmark

Can't help with the current Queens descent from Alfred though, but am very interested to hear the answer.

Thanks for that ID… and maybe this may interest you…

http://www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm

http://www.britroyals.com/royals.htm

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The descent mainly begins with King Christian IX of Denmark who ruled from 1863 to 1906 and who married his 6 children into Europe's Royal Houses

What a coincidence I've just spent several hours over dinner discussing Christian IX "the father in law of Europe" with the neighbours. The basic conclusion we came to was that virtually every European royal family is essentially German since Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is actually a German family (as were of course the Battenburgs, the Brunswicks, the Tecks, the Hesses, the Hanovers, the Oldenburgs, the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas etc.

We also came to the conclusion that Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (who is of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg family himself) is, ironically, considerably more "Royal" than the Queen in that he is more directly related and through more parallel lines to Christian IX, and Queen Victoria, than she is! (We think we even managed to establish his connections to the Habsburgs, Esterházys and Hohenzollerns but that might be the post prandial brandies speaking there!). Prince Philip is currently the oldest living great-great grandchild of Queen Victoria, and in the line of succession to the thrones of 16 countries.... but not of course to the British throne.

Meles… fascinating. I note your remark ref Prince Philip being considerably more ‘royal’ than the Queen, and it reminded me of something Allen D wrote on Englistory, I’m assuming there’s no copyright, and it’s ok to include it here? But it caught my eye and makes me wonder just who is who… and I suppose that’s the reason for that publication.

Allen D was writing on another thread about Princess Diana but continued…. This meant, of course, that far from being a "commoner" before her marriage the Princess had far more royal blood running through her veins than her husband whose only connection to the Stuarts was through the cadet branch of the Hanoverians who owed their elevation to both the Glorious Revolution of 1688-9 and the exclusion of the Catholic claimants to the throne by the Act of Settlement of 1701. It also means that when eventually her son, the Duke of Cambridge, ascends the throne he will become the first direct descendant of Charles II to do so thus enabling a second Stuart Restoration.

I was reading about Prince Philip fairly recently and was intrigued by the confusion surrounding what to call him when it became evident he was to marry the Princess Elizabeth. He appeared not to have a surname but adopted Mountbatten from his mother’s family.

Certainly haven’t seen anything about him being in the line of succession to the thrones of 16 countries.... I’d love to read more of that.

It all is very fascinating isn't it... although very tangled:

Another thing we worked out last night was that about a generation earlier than Christian IX of Denmark, the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, who was again a member of the same family group, married into the Romanov family. All Romanov Tsars from the middle of that century were descended from that marriage. Though officially known as the House of Romanov, they were really Holstein-Gottorp-Romanovs (ie German).

Another couple of points regarding Prince Philip:
Being a descendent of Queen Victoria and of the Holstein branch himself Prince Philip is very closely related to the Romanovs so close in fact that it was his DNA that was used to identify the bodies of the last Tsaritsa and her children.

Also, interestingly in relation to the original post, I stumbled across Prince Christopher of Greece (Prince Philip's father’s brother) who married Princess Françoise of Orléans who was the daughter of Jean d'Orléans, Duc de Guise and Isabelle d'Orléans who was herself the daughter of Philippe d’Orléans, Comte de Paris who was grandson of king Louis Philippe I of France ….. which therefore links Prince Philip into the French Royal Family too! By my reckoning Prince Philip’s uncle was married to the great-great-grand-daughter of the last Bourbon King of France.

And finally re the name Mountbatten:
Prince Philip (baptised into the Greek Orthodox faith as Philipos) was the only son and fifth and final child of Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark, and Princess Alice of Battenberg. So he wouldn’t have had a true surname but would’ just’ be called Philip of Greece. His maternal grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg, was a naturalised British citizen and, after long and distinguished service in the Royal Navy, had renounced his German titles and adopted the surname Mountbatten in WW1 as sounding less germanic.

After the abdication of his Uncle, King Constantine I of Greece in 1922, Prince Andrew and his family had to go into exile (Prince Philip was then only 1 year old) and they ended up in Paris, living on the charity of other royal relations. Subsequently Philip was educated in the UK using the surname of his maternal grandfather (Mountbatten), and of course served in the Royal Navy during WW2. His four sisters however all married German nobility some with rather dodgey Nazi connections (and so were not invited to his marriage to Elizabeth). On his marriage to the heir to the British throne he was required to renounced his Greek and Danish royal titles, convert from Greek Orthodoxy to Anglicanism, and become a British subject. So although his was born a Prince of Denmark and Greece he no longer appears in the succession of either country.

Regarding him being in the line of succession to the thrones of 16 countries.... I got that from wiki.

Blimey meles…. I’ve had to read through that a few times, a real mish mash of who’s who… and who’s been with who, and who’s done what to whom and with what.

Ref Phillip, yes I remember his DNA being used to identify the remains of the Romanovs….
Never read anything about Philip being related to the French, although I suppose when they ‘bred’ from such a small gene pool it’s hardly surprising, nor that a few more of them aren’t a bit, err… loopy.

Yes I was aware of Philip not having a proper surname, being known only as Philip of Greece, I thought I’d included that in a previous post, but perhaps not being able to find an exact quote thought better of it, I make myself look quite dumb enough as it is… I do recall reading though that the question of his name was an issue when as I think I said his marriage to the queen became likely, and he took the name of Mountbatten. What an almost fathomless pit of intrigue these royals have, it’s a good job there are so many people able to sort it out.

Mm yes I too read about his sisters not coming to the wedding as a result of there marriage to dodgy German nobility with Nazi connections… one could almost but not quite feel a twinge of sympathy for his highness, apart from being completely neutral during the war, no matter which side of the door he hung his coat, he was fighting family. But I suppose that’s the price one pays to live the privileged life they do as puppets to the constitutions whence they originate.

I wish I could find the article ref the 16 countries you mention… I want to know who they are.

It still remains interesting.

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His maternal grandfather, Prince Louis of Battenberg, was a naturalised British citizen and, after long and distinguished service in the Royal Navy, had renounced his German titles and adopted the surname Mountbatten in WW1 as sounding less germanic

.

He was hounded out of office despite the name change, clearing the way for "The Chink" to be resurrected.

Normanhurst,bandick (you are the same person aren't you?... I get a bit confused at the moment:

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I wish I could find the article ref the 16 countries you mention… I want to know who they are.

So do I... it's got me quite intrigued... As I said I took that statement from Wiki... but there's no citation so cannot follow it up directly, and when you look at the various lines of succession on wiki they end at the immediate family or else it gets horrifically bogged down in claims and counter-claims (just look at all the legal arguements over who might be the heir-in-waiting to the Russian throne):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_succession_to_the_Russian_Throne

But I have to say it all led to a fascinating and very animated discussion last night with the neighbours (one English, one German)... The other thing that we commented on was how often these "appointed by God" monarchs had got there only because they had happily renounced their (strongly held???) original faith whether it was Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox etc.. and adopted a new one. But let's not get into that, eh?

EDIT 1 : Just remembered I've got the BBC series "Fall of Eagles" on DVD :) ... I guess the evening's entertainment is sorted!

EDIT 2: Just realised that the "... 16 lines of succession..." question is a splendid excuse to have another meal with the neighbours to try and sort it all out. They do know their history.... and, more importantly, they have a very good wine cellar!

I can vaguely remember that, wasn't Gayle Hunicutt the tzarina? She was the most beautiful woman and a fine actress, I would love to see 'The Golden Bowl' again.
Sorry, sorry, I'm doing it again.

I remember that Patrick Stewart (Sejanus in "I Claudius", Capt Jean-Luc Picard in "Star Trek" etc.) was a dead ringer for Lenin! I've just looked - it's a four disc set so that should keep me busy for a bit. We had an elderly english couple staying here in our B&B last year... while her husband went walking everyday his wife just ploughed her way through our dvd collection of historical dramas, principally "I Claudius" and "Fall of Eagles"... she didn't quite complete the latter so I guess she they might come back this summer to finish off. I've now got "Henry VIII and his six wives" (Keith Michell) and "Elizabeth R" with Glenda Jackson if she fancies a bit of Tudor shennigans.

Oh marvellous, it's true they just don't make 'em like that any more.

Meles meles,

I've just ordered "Fall of Eagles" - £30 - it had better be good!

Have you come across the *ancient* BBC series "In the Shadow of the Tower" - all about Henry VII?


Dated, but brilliant.

Meles meles - just a quick word to thank you for mentioning "Fall of Eagles". Definitely worth the money - a real collector's set of DVDs! Believe it or not, I had never come across this series before (I suppose in 1974 I had other things on my mind - history on the TV wasn't one of them!).

I've just got up to Episode 6 - gosh, it's all so good, but how TV productions have changed. Very different from "The Borgias"!

There's a letter in the Radio Times this week very sensibly asking for "more vintage repeats". The BBC has a wonderful archive, but all we seem to get are repeats of antiques and cookery programmes shown a few weeks or months previously. Superb vintage productions such as "Eagles" - surely a much better daytime viewing option!

I'd love, for example, to see "War and Peace" (starring a young Anthony Hopkins) again.

And yes - doesn't Patrick Stewart look like Lenin! I'm enjoying spotting some of the actors (often in minor roles) who later became much better known. I had to giggle at Frank (Captain Peacock) Thornton's brief appearance as Prince Albert - alas no Mollie Sugden as Queen Victoria commenting on her feline companion.

Hi Temperance, glad you're enjoing it. I do remember watching it in 1974... I was doing O level British social and political history 1815 to 1914, and we were strongly advised to watch. Its focus outside of Britain and the Empire was thought particularly good as it gave us a wider background in which to see British politics.

I wonder if today's equivalent of the O level ever deals which such things ?

Funny you should mention "War and Peace", I was thinking of trying to get that on DVD if it's not too horrifically expensive. And I would like to get "The Borgias" too - but the 1981 version not the lastest "sexed up" offering. I am a bit of a sucker for classic historical dramas.

EDIT: Yes, "Eagles", since it has such a lot of characters does have a full cast of classic British actors and actresses... I kept expecting someone to say "Yes, Minister" to Plekhanov!

The fact that our history teachers would recommend a BBC drama as beneficial to our history studies, without them having seen it in advance, just goes to show how much confidence they had in the BBC. Can you imagine students trying to pass an exam on 16th century history based on "The Tudors" ?

Meles meles wrote:

Hi Temperance, glad you're enjoying it. I do remember watching it in 1974... I was doing O level British social and political history 1815 to 1914, and we were strongly advised to watch. Its focus outside of Britain and the Empire was thought particularly good as it gave us a wider background in which to see British politics.

I wonder if today's equivalent of the O level ever deals which such things ?

Good Lord, Meles meles, I can't imagine A-Level students these days coping with "Fall of Eagles", let alone kids doing GCSE history. Perhaps even some undergraduates would struggle!

The episodes written by Jack (I, Claudius) Pulman are particularly good.

The series is triggering an interest in me to find out more about Tsarist Russia. What an idiot Tsar Nicholas II was! I know little of the man, but is it true to say he had much in common with Charles Stuart - Charles I? Both seem to have been weak, stubborn, foolish rulers, too much influenced by arrogant, neurotic wives?

Meles meles wrote:

France dispensed with its monarchy and hereditary aristocracy in the 18/19th century well before nearly all other European states. And until the beginning of the 20th century France was generally regarded by Britain as a serious rival if not actually a foe. Nearly all the other european states remained monarchies, at least until after WW1. Inevitably these royal houses became related to the British Royals, many by directly marrying Queen Victoria’s children and grand-children. The current heirs apparent and claimants to many European states that are now republics eg. Germany, Russia, Greece, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Serbia etc.. are thus still quite closely related to Queen Liz... so they're family. The French aristocracy, generally, didn't have the connections to marry into the clique!

Good point.

It's all the more remarkable when one considers how closely linked dynastically France and England, and France and Scotland were at varying points in the Middle Ages. After the Protestant Reformation, however, it all just seemed to stop. That said - post-Reformation, Elizabeth I did entertain at least a couple of French suitors such as the Duke of Alencon. And later Charles I married Henrietta Maria of France. But Charles and Henrietta Maria are not ancestors of the current Queen.

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Also, interestingly in relation to the original post, I stumbled across Prince Christopher of Greece (Prince Philip's father’s brother) who married Princess Françoise of Orléans who was the daughter of Jean d'Orléans, Duc de Guise and Isabelle d'Orléans who was herself the daughter of Philippe d’Orléans, Comte de Paris who was grandson of king Louis Philippe I of France  ….. which therefore links Prince Philip into the French Royal Family too! By my reckoning Prince Philip’s uncle was married to the great-great-grand-daughter of the last Bourbon King of France.

With regard to the Queen's own ancestry then one has to go back to Mary of Guise (the mother of Mary Queen of Scots) to find a French-born ancestor. And even Marie de Guise was from Lorraine and so on that point her 'Frenchness' could be debated.

Similarly another ancestor of Elizabeth II, King Edward IV of England was born in Rouen in Normandy. So his claim to be the Queen's most recent French ancestor can also be questioned.

To find an unquestionably French ancestor of Elizabeth II then one probably needs to go right back to Catherine of Valois (1401-1437) who was the widow of Henry V and then wife of Owen Tudor. That's 600 years ago.