Haven't a clue where to put this, but here seems as good a place as any. I thought it could be interesting to have a thread to share the history that is being uncovered, and has been uncovered, under our waters.

And without wanting to go anywhere near the whole Elgin Marble debate, this exploration has come to light over the past two summers here in Greece. And with the exciting prospect of more important artifacts yet to be discovered in the wreck

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/11/20/greek-antiquities-found-on-mentor-shipwreck/

A new investigation this past October at the site of the Roman wreck in which the Antikythera Mechanism was found has revealed that the ship is 160ft long, huge for that time and twice as big as originally thought. Excitingly, the ship has yet to reveal all of it's secrets

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/01/03/antikythera-shipwreck-survey/1804353/

Although the mechanism and statues largely overshadow other finds, here are two examples of the impressive glassware also found at the same site

I can't find your original thread ID, so I'll put this here.

As a local, have you heard this suggestion that the Antikythera wreeck may really be two ships? http://www.livescience.com/26009-antikythera-roman-shipwreck-two.html

Thanks ferval, an interesting read. It has been suspected that the wreck may have been part of a fleet, but I hadn't read before that there could be more than one wreck. The Aegean and Ionian Seas meet around Antikythera which create dangerous currents and unpredictable seas which are given to violent storms, so it is not unfeasible that more than one ship went down.

Then again, it is for this reason that the whole area is littered with ship wrecks and because of the depth of the water most are unexplored, it would be reasonable to also suggest that two wrecks could be unrelated.

I'm eagerly awaiting next summer's diving season to see what else comes to light!

The wreck of Columbus' flagship Santa Maria believed to be found.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/exclusive-found-after-500-years-the-wreck-of-christopher-columbuss-flagship-the-santa-maria-9359330.html

This is fascinating, lovely presentation with loads of information on an area we rarely hear about in Europe. The story of a coast that sank 1,000 ships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_8704/index.html

Probably a bit better known than the Vietnam wreck sites, the Skeleton Coast of Namibia;



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_Coast

This year's dive season on the Antikythera wreck site is complete. Permission was given this year for a 5 year study at the site, so now we wait until next year for the continuation. Edit. I think I've possibly put this on the wrong thread.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730404-200-divers-return-to-famous-antikythera-wreck-to-hunt-for-treasures/

And the initial summary of finds

http://www.whoi.edu/news-release/antikythera-shipwreck-excavation

Islanddawn wrote:

This year's dive season on the Antikythera wreck site is complete. Permission was given this year for a 5 year study at the site, so now we wait until next year for the continuation. Edit. I think I've possibly put this on the wrong thread.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730404-200-divers-return-to-famous-antikythera-wreck-to-hunt-for-treasures/

And the initial summary of finds

http://www.whoi.edu/news-release/antikythera-shipwreck-excavation

Thank you so much Islanddawn for this up to date. We discussed it already on another thread.

Kind regards and glad to see you once back on the board. Paul.

The University of Southampton's Black Sea expedition has found some well preserved shipwrecks;

Black Sea

The ancient Roman city of Neapolis, swamped by a tsunami in 365AD, has been found off the coast of Tunisia;



Neapolis

Finds suggest the Neapolis was a major producer of Garum, a fish paste popular at the time.

Interesting Trike, but heavens that woman is excruciating to listen to. And she is mispronouncing Neapolis, not nea-polis but ne-apoli (ne-ahpolee) is the way.

Interesting collection of remains from the seabed off Sicily including an unusual helmet.









Roman and Carthaginian Remains from the Balle of Egadi

USS Lexington has been found in the Coral Sea:

USS Lexington

14 October 1941:

And at a couple of miles down it's probably too deep for the usual salvagers, so she might stay untouched for a bit longer.

Yes, the Jutland wrecks have been the victims of scavenging:

Jutland pillaging

I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:

The Ballard pictures from "Iron Bottom Sound" - particularly HMAS Canberra - are the ones that most impressed me.

The French department for undersea archaeology (Département des recherches archéologiques subaquatiques et sous-marines – DRASSM) has announced it is going to conduct a new search this summer to try and find the wrecks of two ships that sank together during the battle of Saint-Mathieu on 10 August 1512 during Henry VIII’s war against France. The Regent was the flagship of  the English fleet while The Cordelière, was the largest ship of Anne of Brittany’s navy (Brittany was then still an independent state although closely allied to France). During the battle the Cordeliere exploded and sank, taking the Regent down with her.


La Cordelière et Le Regent

Despite looking on and off since 1996 the head of DRASSM is certainly being very upbeat about this new search: he’s quoted by Agence France Presse as saying "What we have under the water here are two of the most significant museums of the 16th century’s maritime history. It’s an underwater Pompeii. We might find something on the first day, or nothing for five years. But I am firmly convinced, one day we will find it."

Although the site is thought to be quite close to the shore, unlike the sheltered silty locations of the Mary Rose or the Wasa, it is still open sea off the rocky coast of Brittany so I’d imagine the wrecks have been well broken up and the remains widely dispersed.

Incidentally they are using a government research ship (the André Malraux) which is permanently dedicated exclusively to subsea archaeology. Does the UK have similar vessels? I rather get the impression that in Britain such archaeological work is just left to cash-strapped universities, wealthy sponsors and keen amateurs.


L'André Malraux

Triceratops wrote:

I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:

Sorry to be lowbrow but did anyone else think the front picture looked a bit like a dalek?

MM, I skimmed your post initially and was thinking that the writer Andre Malraux had been involved with marine exploration but I see it is the name of a boat.

This is an image from the book, it was on pinterest, which shows the bridge from a different perspective. The ship is the USS Quincy, as can be seen, her entire bow section has been blown off:

Meles meles wrote:

Incidentally they are using a government research ship (the André Malraux) which is permanently dedicated exclusively to subsea archaeology. Does the UK have similar vessels? I rather get the impression that in Britain such archaeological work is just left to cash-strapped universities, wealthy sponsors and keen amateurs.

There is no official vessel dedicated to marine archaeology in the UK. However there has traditionally been quite a range of scientific research vessels that could be chartered for this purpose - most privately run, some joint-funded by the EU and various HEIs, and some nominally "royal" or navy administered. There is quite a bit of concern at the moment concerning what will happen post-Brexit. The government has already quietly moth-balled (ie. cancelled) the few investment commitments to renew this ageing fleet that existed, and in fact the future of the UK's capacity to engage in even basic research (fish-mapping, exploratory trawling, bed sampling etc) in support of the fishing industry is a very moot point indeed. At this moment in time Scotland (which funds its own programme) has more dedicated research vessels partly or wholly publicly funded than England and Wales combined. And according to the MAT (Marine Archaeological Trust) the existing depleted fleet is now almost impossible to secure for archaeological purposes - the will and the funds have just dried up, it seems.

I think perhaps the key point is that in France, heritage, la patrimonie, is deemed to be of such national importance, that it should never be left to the vagaries of private individuals, whether they be keen, dedicated amateurs, or big business. That is not to say that local societies/enthusiasts/experts are excluded. I've visited the private collection of Roman remains found by a local diver ... and every amphorae or coin had a government registration number and he was proud to have contributed to the national 'patrimonie'. In France, at least at the moment, it remains unthinkable that nationally important museums, libraries or monuments should be controlled and financed by private individuals/companies. Yes, these cultural assets need to managed finacially, and yes sometimes the 'big state' doesn't understand the local, cultural importance ... but generally everyone accepts that these things belong to the state/the people, and are not to be exploited for anyone's personal gain.

Oh and by the way there quite a lot of people, including the local dive/archaeological group here...  who are currently lobbying for the Ministry of Arts and Culture - who have the eventual fiscal decision - to commision a second such subsea archaeological vessel. The current André Malreux and her crew would remain focussed on the Mediterranean, around her home base of Marseille ... while the new vessel, perhaps based in Brest, could concentrate on the equally important marine heritage of France's Atlantic coast. Well that's the idea anyway.

The Dutch are considering kitting out a vessel for archaeological exploratory purposes as well, as is Ireland I heard, and both have magnanimously offered to lease them cheaply to the UK if they want to use them in future. There is genuine concern not only in Britain but among many of its closer research collaborators regarding research funding in the UK from this point onwards - and it extends into every field, including marine archaeology (which is very tightly integrated with care of underwater designated graves etc, so remains very much a matter of national importance and state responsibility within the UK, whether it has the independent means any longer to pursue these exercises on its own or not now that it has voluntarily removed itself from EU projects and funding).

LadyinRetirement wrote:

Triceratops wrote:

I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:

Sorry to be lowbrow but did anyone else think the front picture looked a bit like a dalek?

MM, I skimmed your post initially and was thinking that the writer Andre Malraux had been involved with marine exploration but I see it is the name of a boat.

Lady in retirement, I did some time ago the research, but forgot hen the item while I was so busy with other threads.
And indeed as you say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek

I have never seen it of heard from it. I suppose while it was on no French, Belgian or Dutch channel.
But then the American Star Trek series was immens popular overhere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek


Kind regards from Paul.

Meles meles wrote:

I think perhaps the key point is that in France, heritage, la patrimonie, is deemed to be of such national importance, that it should never be left to the vagaries of private individuals, whether they be keen, dedicated amateurs, or big business. That is not to say that local societies/enthusiasts/experts are excluded. I've visited the private collection of Roman remains found by a local diver ... and every amphorae or coin had a government registration number and he was proud to have contributed to the national 'patrimonie'. In France, at least at the moment, it remains unthinkable that nationally important museums, libraries or monuments should be controlled and financed by private individuals/companies. Yes, these cultural assets need to managed finacially, and yes sometimes the 'big state' doesn't understand the local, cultural importance ... but generally everyone accepts that these things belong to the state/the people, and are not to be exploited for anyone's personal gain.

Oh and by the way there quite a lot of people, including the local dive/archaeological group here...  who are currently lobbying for the Ministry of Arts and Culture - who have the eventual fiscal decision - to commision a second such subsea archaeological vessel. The current André Malreux and her crew would remain focussed on the Mediterranean, around her home base of Marseille ... while the new vessel, perhaps based in Brest, could concentrate on the equally important marine heritage of France's Atlantic coast. Well that's the idea anyway.

Yes Meles meles you are completely right about France.
Perhaps a site about le patrimoine français interesting for you:
https://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/index.htm

And as an owner of a cultural site listed in the French patrimoine, you have not to laugh with it:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/patrimoine/2008/10/16/05001-20081016ARTFIG00652-comment-la-france-protege-son-patrimoine-.php
If the owners let their patrimonium degrade, the State can command restauration works, of which the bill can be added to their taks bill. And in the worsest case the State can expropriate the owners without compensation
Perhaps in Belgium it is the same: The house that we sold in Bruges some 100 years old, had after our restauration, a classified as historic
façade, and we weren't allowed to change anything at that facade. And when we sold it last year, there was an apart certificate from the city of Bruges for the new owner to be included in the act at the notary.

To come back to maritime research.
Also Belgium is involved for its small part of the North Sea...by the regionalisation it is now under the tutelle since 1999 of the VLIZ...it seems now that only the nowadays Flanders region has a coast...but perhaps that is a good thing because as the Region want to boast with his maritime achievements they put more money in it...?
They have also a ship, perhaps not the size of the André Malraux, but they seems also to have an underwater robot...
http://www.vliz.be/en
And the history:
http://www.vliz.be/en/history
I suppose the Netherlands with that more coast have even more state funded institutions

Kind regards from Paul.

Love this, they drained a canal in Amsterdam and uploaded everything that they found in chronological order.

https://belowthesurface.amsterdam/en/vondsten

Islanddawn wrote:

Love this, they drained a canal in Amsterdam and uploaded everything that they found in chronological order.

https://belowthesurface.amsterdam/en/vondsten

Islanddawn,

yes very interesting as it covers a whole period of history...
I had the same impression visiting the Caves of Han in Belgium, about the museum of underwater archaeology...
http://www.grotte-de-han.be/en/prehistohan
archaeology from 9000 years ago till now...
I saw even with my own eyes a safety pin! from the late Bronze Age..."amazing" would our BBC Thessalonican Greek engineer have said
...if you remember him...
I have before already sought for pictures...but nowhere yu can find them...and photographs were forbidden in the museum...

 I am also member (receiving news mails from them...not active... ) of the archaeological service of Bruges: Raakvlak. I started there when on the BBC they spoke about the "circles" in the landscape all over Europe...and there was one in Assebroek Bruges too...
The service do from time to time great discoveries and some lesser ones...as the content of a medieval cesspit...don't laugh...which gives an indication of what people ate at that time...their pottery...their contemporeous small things...even gold rings and mints were found..

Kind regards from Paul.

There are safety pins in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, I can't remember exactly what era but very very old anyway.

Cesspits are definitely no laughing matter, they are a literal mine of information about every day life for archaeologists today.

Islanddawn wrote:

There are safety pins in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, I can't remember exactly what era but very very old anyway.

Cesspits are definitely no laughing matter, they are a literal mine of information about every day life for archaeologists today.

Islanddawn, 

thanks for the reply and yes these safety pins were perhaps spread allover Europe as the Bronze culture


I started to dig (Dutch:delven) for the spread of the Bronze age culture, but came again at the endless discussions about the Hallstadt or was it the Atlantic fringe of Spain. Also the endless discussions about the origin of the Indo-European language....after an hour give up...
Can the academics not give once a clear survey of the several theories and their differences...or are they that entrenched that nobody can stand above it all?

From the wiki:




And as you can see on the map there was already "long range?" trade (Dutch: verreafstadshandel)

And one that I found occasionnaly during my evening's search...one for the ladies onboard...Ferval where are you...
https://people.howstuffworks.com/culture-traditions/cultural-traditions/bronze-age-neolithic-women-europe-spread-culture.htm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4850532/Women-key-spreading-culture-Europe.html

Kind regards from Paul.

Islanddawn,

had some quick research for the English of "verreafstandshandel" no translation on the mighty web...but one entrance in Dutch...
now on that mighty web there are two entries and from all over the world the second entry will lead to Res Historica...
nothing with "verre afstands handel" nor with "verre-afstands-handel"
But with "lange astand handel" "lange-afstands-handel" and "langeafstandshandel" more entries in Dutch and at the end a translation into English as:
LONG DISTANCE TRADE

Kind regards, Paul.

Islanddawn,

especially for you, but without comment, while already one o'clock in the morning overhere...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44806083

Kind regards from Paul.

Addendum to the previous message.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44806083

And it is the "André Malraux" surveillance ship that is involved in the search for the two ships, a French and an English one sunk together in a battle. I am sure MM mentioned the ship already in another context overhere.
https://www.vesselfinder.com/vessels/ANDRE-MALRAUX-IMO-9666302-MMSI-228353900


And the two ships searched for, if found ever, have great value both historic and archaeologic...
According to the BBC article:
"For the French, or rather for the people of Brittany, the Cordelière has mythic status. She was the flagship of the duchy's last independent ruler and revered heroine, the Duchess Anne.
And she was captained up until the moment of sinking (and his death) by another Breton hero, Hervé de Portzmoguer, a kind of patriot-corsair. His Frenchified name Primauguet is still given to vessels of the French navy to this day."
And the English one:

"The Regent was, in its day, every bit as important as its sister ship the Mary Rose, which was famously raised from the Solent 36 years ago and is now on display in Portsmouth.
If anything, the Regent was the bigger ship. And if Henry VIII's Mary Rose is anything to go by, then this would be a stupendous find indeed.
The trouble is no-one knows exactly where the Battle of Saint-Mathieu took place.
It was during one of the lesser-known wars between England and an alliance of France and a still-independent Brittany."



And while we are on ships...
I saw the Hermione in France some years ago when it was built...and walking on the ground near the ship being built I remember how tall that hull was...I guess some 10 à 12 metres (a bit the same in yards)...
https://www.francetoday.com/activity/the_hermione_the_replica_of_lafayette_s_famous_frigate_sets_sail/

https://www.rochefort-ocean.com/en/plan-your-stay/things-to-do/sightseeing-and-tours-in-rochefort-ocean/l-hermione-110657
https://www.hermione.com/accueil/


Ladies and gentlemen tomorrow journey to Zürich...see you again in some days...

Kind regards from Paul.

still an addendum about the construction of the Hermione from which I saw a sequence  during my visit...
It is in French but the images say it all...



 
Kind regards from Paul.

Good morning.

For those who like naval history and archaeology .....

https://www.huskyan.com/diving/hms-vanguard.php

The link takes you to the people who last year did a wreck survey on HMS Vanguard which blew up in Scapa Flow in 1917. You have to give them an email address but in return you get a fantastic wreck survey that absolutely fascinating and shows just how far sonography and computer imaging has come.


Hopefully somebody will enjoy it.

Another report of British warships wrecks being plundered :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-warships-plundered-scrap-metal-chinese-pirates-second-world-war-a8498026.html





Dirk

VF wrote:

Good morning.

For those who like naval history and archaeology .....

https://www.huskyan.com/diving/hms-vanguard.php

The link takes you to the people who last year did a wreck survey on HMS Vanguard which blew up in Scapa Flow in 1917. You have to give them an email address but in return you get a fantastic wreck survey that absolutely fascinating and shows just how far sonography and computer imaging has come.


Hopefully somebody will enjoy it.

Thanks Virtual Fletch for your link. I did as you said and it all worked...

After watching it I will comment one of these days....

Kind regards from Paul.

Dirk Marinus wrote:

Another report of British warships wrecks being plundered :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-warships-plundered-scrap-metal-chinese-pirates-second-world-war-a8498026.html





Dirk

Yes Dirk I read something in the same vein: as the battleships were located and then some years later they din't exist anymore on that place...some said sea currents but it is more likely that they are plundered by pirates up to the last bolt...

PS: I will tomorrow make my final comment on the Laconia...

Kind regards from Paul.

I saw something just now (I've just come in from the launderette) on Sky News saying that a 1,800 cargo ship has been found somewhere off the coast of Crimea.  I only caught the tail end of it so I'll have to wait until the news is repeated find out the information properly.

A Portuguese ship wreck found near Lisbon at Cascais:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/24/400-year-old-ship-found-off-portuguese-coast-Cascais

Kind regards, Paul.

Now that this thread has sprung to life again I see that I never said anything about the wreck in the Crimean that I mentioned in August - here is a very short (59 secs) clip though it is all in Russian (which I don't speak 

I will also link to an article again very short in Newsweek (dated 7th August 2018).  Newsweek asks you to allow it to set cookies before granting you leave to read the article so it's up to you whether you want to read it - as I say it's very brief.  https://www.newsweek.com/russia-finds-ancient-roman-ship-excellent-condition-botto...  The link has truncated - sometimes when that happens links down't work.  I haven't had a whole lot of luck with my links lately.  Somehow the building of the bridge from the Crimean bridge to Russia had passed me by.

LadyinRetirement wrote:

Now that this thread has sprung to life again I see that I never said anything about the wreck in the Crimean that I mentioned in August - here is a very short (59 secs) clip though it is all in Russian (which I don't speak 

 
Lady,

it says "Roman greetings at the Crimean coast"
I think it is about this one:
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/08/well-preserved-roman-ship-found-off.html#r7xyPJj95GGb2QkK.97


Kind regards from Paul.

LadyinRetirement wrote:

I saw something just now (I've just come in from the launderette) on Sky News saying that a 1,800 cargo ship has been found somewhere off the coast of Crimea.  I only caught the tail end of it so I'll have to wait until the news is repeated find out the information properly.

Lady,

can it be this one?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cargo-ship-crimea-coast-sink-russia-turkey-geroi-arsenala-sos-panama-kherson-ukraine-storm-a7690531.html


Kind regards from Paul.

That was an awful accident in the link, Paul.  The news item I mentioned a bit of time ago was about an  old-time wreck being found.  With doing some typing from home, I tend to have either very little work or a lot of work and today (and probably the day when I first saw the item about the wreck off the Crimean coast) have been quite busy.  So whereas some days I'll spend a fair amount of time on Res Hist today I have to pop in and pop out again.

Ancient intact shipwreck found in the Black Sea:

2500 year old ship
The vessel bears a striking resemblance to the ship depicted on the "Siren Vase"

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/worlds-oldest-intact-shipwreck-cant-be-that-intact-or-it-wouldnt-have-sunk-20181023178595

That is one way of looking at it.

Meanwhile, more finds at Fournoi. This area has yielded numerous ships over the years:
Fournoi

Fournoi II

Yep, and still more waiting to be discovered during next year's diving season and the years after that. The area was, and still is, a major shipping route from the east to the west and vise versa for millennia.

Triceratops wrote:

That is one way of looking at it.

Meanwhile, more finds at Fournoi. This area has yielded numerous ships over the years:
Fournoi

Fournoi II

Triceratops and Islanddawn, as usual I wanted to post the find from my daily entry BBC world, but now I see already too late, but nevertheless I insert the BBC entry, which don't say more than the messages from you.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45951132
My comment: By the modern technology they can search deeper and deeper and so find untouched wrecks. But perhaps the pirates have also that technology and can do the same... when money is at stake...but perhaps in this more and more interconnected and policed by satellites world there is little chance to hide it all? And yes as you need that much capital for such research the investment from pirate point of view is  not worth the benefits?

Kind regards to both from Paul.