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 Marine Archaeology, what is down there....

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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Wed 21 Nov 2012, 04:39

Haven't a clue where to put this, but here seems as good a place as any. I thought it could be interesting to have a thread to share the history that is being uncovered, and has been uncovered, under our waters.

And without wanting to go anywhere near the whole Elgin Marble debate, this exploration has come to light over the past two summers here in Greece. And with the exciting prospect of more important artifacts yet to be discovered in the wreck

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/11/20/greek-antiquities-found-on-mentor-shipwreck/
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sat 05 Jan 2013, 16:35

A new investigation this past October at the site of the Roman wreck in which the Antikythera Mechanism was found has revealed that the ship is 160ft long, huge for that time and twice as big as originally thought. Excitingly, the ship has yet to reveal all of it's secrets

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/01/03/antikythera-shipwreck-survey/1804353/

Although the mechanism and statues largely overshadow other finds, here are two examples of the impressive glassware also found at the same site

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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 13 Jan 2013, 15:23

I can't find your original thread ID, so I'll put this here.

As a local, have you heard this suggestion that the Antikythera wreeck may really be two ships? http://www.livescience.com/26009-antikythera-roman-shipwreck-two.html
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 13 Jan 2013, 16:09

Thanks ferval, an interesting read. It has been suspected that the wreck may have been part of a fleet, but I hadn't read before that there could be more than one wreck. The Aegean and Ionian Seas meet around Antikythera which create dangerous currents and unpredictable seas which are given to violent storms, so it is not unfeasible that more than one ship went down.

Then again, it is for this reason that the whole area is littered with ship wrecks and because of the depth of the water most are unexplored, it would be reasonable to also suggest that two wrecks could be unrelated.

I'm eagerly awaiting next summer's diving season to see what else comes to light!
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Tue 13 May 2014, 14:39

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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 04 Dec 2014, 04:00

This is fascinating, lovely presentation with loads of information on an area we rarely hear about in Europe. The story of a coast that sank 1,000 ships.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_8704/index.html
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 04 Dec 2014, 10:17

Probably a bit better known than the Vietnam wreck sites, the Skeleton Coast of Namibia;



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_Coast
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sat 26 Sep 2015, 05:27

This year's dive season on the Antikythera wreck site is complete. Permission was given this year for a 5 year study at the site, so now we wait until next year for the continuation. Edit. I think I've possibly put this on the wrong thread. pale

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730404-200-divers-return-to-famous-antikythera-wreck-to-hunt-for-treasures/

And the initial summary of finds

http://www.whoi.edu/news-release/antikythera-shipwreck-excavation
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sat 26 Sep 2015, 22:04

@Islanddawn wrote:
This year's dive season on the Antikythera wreck site is complete. Permission was given this year for a 5 year study at the site, so now we wait until next year for the continuation. Edit. I think I've possibly put this on the wrong thread. pale

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730404-200-divers-return-to-famous-antikythera-wreck-to-hunt-for-treasures/

And the initial summary of finds

http://www.whoi.edu/news-release/antikythera-shipwreck-excavation

Thank you so much Islanddawn for this up to date. We discussed it already on another thread.

Kind regards and glad to see you once back on the board. Paul.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 16:02

The University of Southampton's Black Sea expedition has found some well preserved shipwrecks;

Black Sea

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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:57

The ancient Roman city of Neapolis, swamped by a tsunami in 365AD, has been found off the coast of Tunisia;



Neapolis

Finds suggest the Neapolis was a major producer of Garum, a fish paste popular at the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:13

Interesting Trike, but heavens that woman is excruciating to listen to. And she is mispronouncing Neapolis, not nea-polis but ne-apoli (ne-ahpolee) is the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 12 Nov 2017, 17:55

Interesting collection of remains from the seabed off Sicily including an unusual helmet.









Roman and Carthaginian Remains from the Balle of Egadi
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Tue 06 Mar 2018, 14:05

USS Lexington has been found in the Coral Sea:

USS Lexington

14 October 1941:



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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Tue 06 Mar 2018, 16:12

And at a couple of miles down it's probably too deep for the usual salvagers, so she might stay untouched for a bit longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Wed 07 Mar 2018, 14:58

Yes, the Jutland wrecks have been the victims of scavenging:

Jutland pillaging
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Wed 07 Mar 2018, 15:23

I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Wed 07 Mar 2018, 23:45

The Ballard pictures from "Iron Bottom Sound" - particularly HMAS Canberra - are the ones that most impressed me.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 08 Mar 2018, 10:56

The French department for undersea archaeology (Département des recherches archéologiques subaquatiques et sous-marines – DRASSM) has announced it is going to conduct a new search this summer to try and find the wrecks of two ships that sank together during the battle of Saint-Mathieu on 10 August 1512 during Henry VIII’s war against France. The Regent was the flagship of  the English fleet while The Cordelière, was the largest ship of Anne of Brittany’s navy (Brittany was then still an independent state although closely allied to France). During the battle the Cordeliere exploded and sank, taking the Regent down with her.


La Cordelière et Le Regent

Despite looking on and off since 1996 the head of DRASSM is certainly being very upbeat about this new search: he’s quoted by Agence France Presse as saying "What we have under the water here are two of the most significant museums of the 16th century’s maritime history. It’s an underwater Pompeii. We might find something on the first day, or nothing for five years. But I am firmly convinced, one day we will find it."

Although the site is thought to be quite close to the shore, unlike the sheltered silty locations of the Mary Rose or the Wasa, it is still open sea off the rocky coast of Brittany so I’d imagine the wrecks have been well broken up and the remains widely dispersed.

Incidentally they are using a government research ship (the André Malraux) which is permanently dedicated exclusively to subsea archaeology. Does the UK have similar vessels? I rather get the impression that in Britain such archaeological work is just left to cash-strapped universities, wealthy sponsors and keen amateurs.


L'André Malraux
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 08 Mar 2018, 11:03

@Triceratops wrote:
I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:
Sorry to be lowbrow but did anyone else think the front picture looked a bit like a dalek?

MM, I skimmed your post initially and was thinking that the writer Andre Malraux had been involved with marine exploration but I see it is the name of a boat.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Thu 08 Mar 2018, 11:53

This is an image from the book, it was on pinterest, which shows the bridge from a different perspective. The ship is the USS Quincy, as can be seen, her entire bow section has been blown off:

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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 11 Mar 2018, 17:09

@Meles meles wrote:

Incidentally they are using a government research ship (the André Malraux) which is permanently dedicated exclusively to subsea archaeology. Does the UK have similar vessels? I rather get the impression that in Britain such archaeological work is just left to cash-strapped universities, wealthy sponsors and keen amateurs.


There is no official vessel dedicated to marine archaeology in the UK. However there has traditionally been quite a range of scientific research vessels that could be chartered for this purpose - most privately run, some joint-funded by the EU and various HEIs, and some nominally "royal" or navy administered. There is quite a bit of concern at the moment concerning what will happen post-Brexit. The government has already quietly moth-balled (ie. cancelled) the few investment commitments to renew this ageing fleet that existed, and in fact the future of the UK's capacity to engage in even basic research (fish-mapping, exploratory trawling, bed sampling etc) in support of the fishing industry is a very moot point indeed. At this moment in time Scotland (which funds its own programme) has more dedicated research vessels partly or wholly publicly funded than England and Wales combined. And according to the MAT (Marine Archaeological Trust) the existing depleted fleet is now almost impossible to secure for archaeological purposes - the will and the funds have just dried up, it seems.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 11 Mar 2018, 18:23

I think perhaps the key point is that in France, heritage, la patrimonie, is deemed to be of such national importance, that it should never be left to the vagaries of private individuals, whether they be keen, dedicated amateurs, or big business. That is not to say that local societies/enthusiasts/experts are excluded. I've visited the private collection of Roman remains found by a local diver ... and every amphorae or coin had a government registration number and he was proud to have contributed to the national 'patrimonie'. In France, at least at the moment, it remains unthinkable that nationally important museums, libraries or monuments should be controlled and financed by private individuals/companies. Yes, these cultural assets need to managed finacially, and yes sometimes the 'big state' doesn't understand the local, cultural importance ... but generally everyone accepts that these things belong to the state/the people, and are not to be exploited for anyone's personal gain.

Oh and by the way there quite a lot of people, including the local dive/archaeological group here...  who are currently lobbying for the Ministry of Arts and Culture - who have the eventual fiscal decision - to commision a second such subsea archaeological vessel. The current André Malreux and her crew would remain focussed on the Mediterranean, around her home base of Marseille ... while the new vessel, perhaps based in Brest, could concentrate on the equally important marine heritage of France's Atlantic coast. Well that's the idea anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 11 Mar 2018, 18:33

The Dutch are considering kitting out a vessel for archaeological exploratory purposes as well, as is Ireland I heard, and both have magnanimously offered to lease them cheaply to the UK if they want to use them in future. There is genuine concern not only in Britain but among many of its closer research collaborators regarding research funding in the UK from this point onwards - and it extends into every field, including marine archaeology (which is very tightly integrated with care of underwater designated graves etc, so remains very much a matter of national importance and state responsibility within the UK, whether it has the independent means any longer to pursue these exercises on its own or not now that it has voluntarily removed itself from EU projects and funding).
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 11 Mar 2018, 21:08

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
@Triceratops wrote:
I've read two or three of Bob Ballard's books on marine archaeology.
Ballard is best known for having discovered the wrecks of the Titanic and Bismarck.
This is the only one I've got:
Sorry to be lowbrow but did anyone else think the front picture looked a bit like a dalek?

MM, I skimmed your post initially and was thinking that the writer Andre Malraux had been involved with marine exploration but I see it is the name of a boat.

Lady in retirement, I did some time ago the research, but forgot hen the item while I was so busy with other threads.
And indeed as you say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalek

I have never seen it of heard from it. I suppose while it was on no French, Belgian or Dutch channel.
But then the American Star Trek series was immens popular overhere:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Marine Archaeology, what is down there....   Sun 11 Mar 2018, 21:43

@Meles meles wrote:
I think perhaps the key point is that in France, heritage, la patrimonie, is deemed to be of such national importance, that it should never be left to the vagaries of private individuals, whether they be keen, dedicated amateurs, or big business. That is not to say that local societies/enthusiasts/experts are excluded. I've visited the private collection of Roman remains found by a local diver ... and every amphorae or coin had a government registration number and he was proud to have contributed to the national 'patrimonie'. In France, at least at the moment, it remains unthinkable that nationally important museums, libraries or monuments should be controlled and financed by private individuals/companies. Yes, these cultural assets need to managed finacially, and yes sometimes the 'big state' doesn't understand the local, cultural importance ... but generally everyone accepts that these things belong to the state/the people, and are not to be exploited for anyone's personal gain.

Oh and by the way there quite a lot of people, including the local dive/archaeological group here...  who are currently lobbying for the Ministry of Arts and Culture - who have the eventual fiscal decision - to commision a second such subsea archaeological vessel. The current André Malreux and her crew would remain focussed on the Mediterranean, around her home base of Marseille ... while the new vessel, perhaps based in Brest, could concentrate on the equally important marine heritage of France's Atlantic coast. Well that's the idea anyway.

Yes Meles meles you are completely right about France.
Perhaps a site about le patrimoine français interesting for you:
https://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/index.htm

And as an owner of a cultural site listed in the French patrimoine, you have not to laugh with it:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/patrimoine/2008/10/16/05001-20081016ARTFIG00652-comment-la-france-protege-son-patrimoine-.php
If the owners let their patrimonium degrade, the State can command restauration works, of which the bill can be added to their taks bill. And in the worsest case the State can expropriate the owners without compensation
Perhaps in Belgium it is the same: The house that we sold in Bruges some 100 years old, had after our restauration, a classified as historic
façade, and we weren't allowed to change anything at that facade. And when we sold it last year, there was an apart certificate from the city of Bruges for the new owner to be included in the act at the notary.

To come back to maritime research.
Also Belgium is involved for its small part of the North Sea...by the regionalisation it is now under the tutelle since 1999 of the VLIZ...it seems now that only the nowadays Flanders region has a coast...but perhaps that is a good thing because as the Region want to boast with his maritime achievements they put more money in it...?
They have also a ship, perhaps not the size of the André Malraux, but they seems also to have an underwater robot...
http://www.vliz.be/en
And the history:
http://www.vliz.be/en/history
I suppose the Netherlands with that more coast have even more state funded institutions

Kind regards from Paul.
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