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 The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)

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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 25 May 2015, 15:49

I borrowed that one and posted it in Historum, Gil.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 25 May 2015, 18:15

Triceratops wrote:
I borrowed that one and posted it in Historum, Gil.
I spotted that ! How about posting this one there too?

Two Dukes and a Count were fed up with the King raising taxes and demanding higher grain production. They decided the only way to change things was a coup d'etat. One night the Count and one of the Dukes slipped into the King's bedchamber. The Duke took a position by the door in case anybody tried to interfere. The Count crept up to the sleeping King and raised his sword. As he was about to strike the King awoke and jumped out of bed. The Count began chasing the King around the room trying to slash him. The Duke had his hands full trying to fend off the palace guards alerted by the King's shouting. In the end the guards killed the Duke and the Count was captured.

The King, knowing full well there had to be someone else involved, asked the Count, "Who is your accomplice?"
The Count stood, raised his chin and stated, "I'll never tell!"

The King had the Count sent to the dungeon. After a full day of torture the King asked him, "Who is your accomplice?"
The Count gritted his teeth and gasped, "I'll never tell!"
"I'll have you executed if you don't tell me!" replied the King.
"I'll...never... tell!" said the Count between the jailor's blows.

The next morning the chopping block was prepared and the King came to the dungeon a final time. "Who is your accomplice?"
"I'll never tell." said the Count.

They dragged the Count out and tied him down to the block. A crowd had gathered and began cheering. The King stepped up as the executioner prepared to swing his axe. "WHO WAS YOUR ACCOMPLICE!"
The Count replied, "I shall die proudly, knowing I never gave away my accomplice."
The King nodded and the executioner began a mighty swing.
The Count screamed "WAIT! I'LL TELL, I'LL..." but it was too late.

Later that night, the remaining Duke stole into the King's bedchamber, and slew him.

The moral of this story?

Don't hatchet your counts before they chicken.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyTue 26 May 2015, 12:50

Temperance wrote:
Meles meles wrote:
I doubt anyone of great importance and/or delicate sensibilities is around to be put off ... it's been very quiet here all weekend. I haven't even seen El Gordo for several days.


I know - I was only joking. It's just that someone who shall be nameless ( Smile ) told me my arguments ( Suspect ) with El Gordo ( Smile ) could put people off joining Res Historica. I thought that was hilarious. Ursa Major might terrify people, but I certainly don't.

Being introduced to Game of Thrones in a minute: I must be the only person in the UK who hasn't watched it. I've been told it's War of the Roses meets The Sopranos all together in Middle Earth. Love the War of the Roses and The Sopranos - not that keen on Middle Earth. Can't be doing with stupid dragons, elves and things.

Temperance, I am belatedly replying regarding "Game of Thrones".  I quite like it and did read (listen to) the books upon which it is based because of having my interest piqued by the TV show.  I have to confess that I like the dragons in GoT although I could never "get into" LotR.  It is of course not claiming to be a true history - quite loosely based on the War of the Roses and other periods from history but I think elements of myth and possibly Shakespeare are interwoven too.  I could never warm to The Sopranos though it was well acted.  Not everything that has been written in praise of the A Song of Ice and Fire novels is true (in my opinion at least).  To read some peoples' opinions about George R R Martin (who wrote the novels - well technically he is still writing them because the book series is as yet unfinished; he does not appear to be a swift writer) one would think he was the only writer who has killed off main characters, or written about "grey" characters rather than out and out goodies and baddies, or deconstructed literary tropes, none of which is correct.  I have been drawn in by the story and find it addictive though - and IF the final books in the series do come to be completed and printed I will read them.  Incidentally two young boys from the Stark family (one of the noble houses in ASOIAF) in the series are missing believed dead (except by the reader/viewer) which I think may have been inspired by the "Princes in the Tower".

(Mind you I enjoyed the BBC's "Merlin" as a light-hearted guilty pleasure although it diverted from the King Arthur myth I knew when I was younger quite drastically.  I don't mind light-weight fare from time to time).

Meles Meles, going further back in this thread, sorry to read you were disappointed in Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings.  I read them (except the seventh one which had not been printed then and which I have never read) in my twenties, some in French and some in English - I didn't find the English translation bad (if it was the same translation) and at the time I enjoyed them.  Whether I would like them now as a sixty-something year old woman I don't know.  There is a history blog about Edward II that I periodically read and the lady who maintains that blog is not impressed with the accuracy of The Accursed Kings.  
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 30 May 2015, 06:35

Seems the mix of "history and fantasy" is the way to go - this is the latest novel about Richard III: Sacred King: Richard III: Sinner, Sufferer, Scapegoat, Sacrifice  by  J. P. Reedman. It is described as a "mix of history, fantasy and British mythology". It has surprisingly good reviews and several stars on Amazon, but, having read a few pages courtesy of that site's "Look Inside" facility, I don't think I'll be ordering it. This is from a review:


SACRED KING, a historical fantasy novella about King Richard III, the battle of Bosworth, and its aftermath.
In August, 1485, King Richard III rides on the hunt in Bestwood Park, near Nottingham, and sees a disturbing vision, a man being killed in ritualistic manner, his blood given to the hungry Land. Riding into Leicester with his army several days later, eager to face the invading Henry Tudor and defend his crown, he encounters yet more disturbing omens…the old woman Agnes Black upon Bow Bridge, who prophecies his head will strike the stone upon his return from the field. On the day of battle, the King is betrayed and loses his life in a heroic last charge, his blood falling on the red soil of Redemore Plain….
but that is not the end.
A Lady who walks between Heaven and Hell takes Richard Plantagenet to the Middle Kingdom, like the prophet Thomas the Rhymer many centuries before.
Will he join her band of unearthly knights, or will he find a way to escape from what he sees as purgatory?


"Sacred" in a title about Richard III is an interesting development: will we be having miracles reported in Leicester soon, one wonders? Anything is possible.

PS LiR I've watched Season One of Game of Thrones - don't think I'll be going on with it. Thought it was going to be good last week, but I'm afraid I've got very bored now: it is utter tripe, although well-acted tripe. The sex and gratuitous violence get awful tedious after a bit - sort of Titus Andronicus meets Candy Goes to Middle Earth   Rolling Eyes

I hope Hilary Mantel doesn't start experimenting with the history/fantasy novella genre.


Last edited by Temperance on Sun 31 May 2015, 08:43; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 30 May 2015, 16:12

Now that's given me an idea for a Dr Who plot line......
It hasn't been done before, has it? I haven't seen an entire episode in many years but I have a faint recollection of stumbling across one with David Tennant kissing Queen Elizabeth I, or was that a feverish dream? Away, the Tardis materialises in the Tower just as...  
Write the rest yourself.

Or Kirk and Spock maybe? That would give them the classic dilemma around the Prime Directive, save the kiddies or.......?

Help! I must get a coffee before total madness overtakes me.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 30 May 2015, 20:46

Temperance wrote:

PS LiR I've watched Season One of Game of Thrones - don't think I'll be going on with it. Thought it was going to be good last week, but I'm afraid I've got very bored now: it is utter tripe, although well-acted. The sex and gratuitous violence get awful tedious after a bit - sort of Titus Andronicus meets Candy Goes to Middle Earth   Rolling Eyes

I hope Hilary Mantel doesn't start experimenting with the history/fantasy novella genre.

Well Temperance, it would be a very dull world, as the old saying goes, if everybody was the same.

That new Richard III novel sounds flipping terrible, but I guess with Richard III having been in the news these last few years people are going to jump on the bandwagon.  I'm not awfully keen on folk writing fantasy books about real people - the idea of Jacquetta of Luxembourg being a witch treated in a novel I will not name by a writer I will not name got my goat.  When I have a bit more free time I want to follow the links that were posted by Nordmann and others (and "others" I do apologise for not remembering your names off the top of my head) to websites about Irish (and other) mythology.  As for Richard III I think I will look out for "good" non-fiction books about him (though of course I won't know if a book is good until I have read it).
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 31 May 2015, 08:24

LadyinRetirement wrote:
Temperance wrote:

PS LiR I've watched Season One of Game of Thrones - don't think I'll be going on with it. Thought it was going to be good last week, but I'm afraid I've got very bored now: it is utter tripe, although well-acted tripe. The sex and gratuitous violence get awful tedious after a bit - sort of Titus Andronicus meets Candy Goes to Middle Earth   Rolling Eyes

I hope Hilary Mantel doesn't start experimenting with the history/fantasy novella genre.


Well Temperance, it would be a very dull world, as the old saying goes, if everybody was the same.




I know - and I'm sorry if I sounded snobbily dismissive, LiR. I can see that Game of Thrones is terribly addictive: it slips down as easily as several glasses of wine with slices of pizza. No wonder it has become the latest million dollar box set phenomenon. It is a well-acted drama (unlike The Tudors) and the interweaving of the complex plot-lines is undoubtedly skilful. Several of the characters are well-drawn and interesting: I especially like Sean Bean's Stark and Peter Dinklage's Imp. But, Lord, it is complete escapist tripe! I need to escape from it.

I think it was all that nonsense with Daenerys Targaryen, her brother and her husband, that ridiculous Khal Drog, that did for me. The heart-eating scene was just too much, I'm afraid. Then came the zombie things beyond the Wall! Sorry - can't be doing with it! Really don't think I'll bother with Season Two.

I wonder if all the tedious obligatory soft porn stuff  Sleep  (worse than the sex in The Tudors) we get these days will eventually, far from corrupting the nation's youth, actually result in total boredom with all things sexual? Perhaps we'll get a backlash, and virginity and celibacy will become fashionable. Then again, perhaps not.

PS I like Samwell Tarly - I thought Peter Kay had landed a part in the series when he first appeared.

PPS I do hope Hilary Mantel doesn't introduce zombies and girl-on-girl stuff in The Mirror and the Light. I shall write and complain if she does.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 31 May 2015, 09:12

Temp wrote:
PPS I do hope Hilary Mantel doesn't introduce zombies and girl-on-girl stuff in The Mirror and the Light.

I'm with you on the zombies. However we must assume that it wasn't off the ground Bess of Hardwick's son licked it.

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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 31 May 2015, 17:00

One cannot but wonder what Charity is up to elsewhere in the building.

Better not to ask - nordmann might tell us. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 09:56

Haven't tracked down Charity (or Temperance) yet. However here's Fortitude and Patience from the same Muriel ...

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 16263216674_ba33ce67bb_m

Here's a wider perspective of the paintings in their Marble Room context - one of several rooms in Bolsover that run the Sistine Chapel a close race. I have never found the identity of the artist(s) involved. They would have been working just before and after the Civil War.

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 Marble10



(Maybe the one dossing off and staring into the middle distance in the Elysium Room is her?)

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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 10:12

Lucy Worsley's documentary about Bill Cavendish getting his Bolsover ...

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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 11:46

What an interesting documentary - thank you so much for posting that link, nordmann.

I knew nothing about William Cavendish or Bolsover Castle. Odd how a chance remark can spark something - it's a place I want to visit now.

I've just been reading about Cavendish's second wife, Margaret Lucas - extraordinary woman. What an interesting pair they must have been.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Cavendish,_Duchess_of_Newcastle-upon-Tyne


Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle-upon-Tyne (1623 – 15 December 1673) was an English aristocrat, a prolific writer, and a scientist. Born Margaret Lucas, she was the youngest sister of prominent royalists Sir John Lucas and Sir Charles Lucas, who owned the manor of St. John's Abbey in Colchester.[1] She became an attendant of Queen Henrietta Maria and travelled with her into exile in France, living for a time at the court of the young King Louis XIV. She became the second wife of William Cavendish, 1st Duke of Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1645, when he was a marquess.

Cavendish was a poet, philosopher, writer of prose romances, essayist, and playwright who published under her own name at a time when most women writers published anonymously. Her writing addressed a number of topics, including gender, power, manners, scientific method, and philosophy. Her utopian romance, The Blazing World, is one of the earliest examples of science fiction.[2] She is singular in having published extensively in natural philosophy and early modern science.[3] She published over a dozen original works; inclusion of her revised works brings her total number of publications to twenty one.[4]

Cavendish has been championed and criticised as a unique and groundbreaking woman writer. She rejected the Aristotelianism and mechanical philosophy of the seventeenth century, preferring a vitalist model instead.[4] She criticised and engaged with the members of the Royal Society of London and the philosophers Thomas Hobbes, René Descartes, and Robert Boyle. She has been claimed as an advocate for animals and as an early opponent of animal testing.[5]



I was struck by Worsley's remark that Bolsover Castle - Cavendish's "outrageous, idiosyncratic place" - "captures the tensions of early 17th century England". Ah - those two closets - virtue and pleasure?

Fascinating stuff, if off-topic here!

PS The Riding House too - really the only surviving example in England?
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 16:18

El Supremo wrote:

(Maybe the one dossing off and staring into the middle distance in the Elysium Room is her?)



Who? Charity or Temperance?

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 18:43

Temperance, I can't get my computer to copy over quotes at the moment.  I have had a new mouse button delivered (I think that is the problem) but have not connected it yet.  I didn't think you sounded "snobbily dismissive".  I like to know where I stand and prefer people to be direct (as long as they are not discourteous).  I can't remember whether I mentioned this long ago and far away on another thread but somebody said to me "You have no soul woman" when I said I didn't like Lord of the Rings - but would he have had me perjure myself and say I thought it was wonderful?  I think it was the bit where the writer mentioned someone's eleventy-first birthday that irritated me.  I must have a look at the Bolsover Castle sometime.  Hayfever has been laying me low and I don't feel like anything akin to studying - even today when it is raining [and theoretically the pollen count should be low] in my part of the world.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Jun 2015, 18:49

That makes two of us without a soul then - and with hay fever.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 03 Jun 2015, 10:31

And now the French have started digging up their aristos:

The Gruadian : Fully dressed and preserved 350-year-old corpse of French noblewoman found

The incredibly well preserved body of Louise de Quengo (d. 1656) in her lead coffin unearthed in the city of Rennes during construction work.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 17 Jun 2015, 16:16

Gosh, this is all very embarrassing: a Ricardian accused - and found guilty - of a drunken rant and of attacking the Dean of York, no less. What is the world coming to?


Retired accountant David John Smith, 66, admitted drinking before walking up to York Minster and confronting the Very Rev Vivienne Faull - now Dean of York - and telling her: 'God will not forgive you for what you have done to Richard. You will burn in the hell fires forever.'
 Shocked



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3126689/Richard-III-fan-gets-criminal-record-drunken-rant.html



The Dean of York looks like a very scary lady: nothing meek and mild in that face.   pale

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 1DAAE7FB00000578-3126689-Retired_accountant_David_John_Smith_admitted_having_a_drink_befo-a-73_1434467528213
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 17 Jun 2015, 16:28

She seems rather disproportionately tall. Is she standing on a box or does she actually have 6 inch stilletos on under all the vestments?
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 17 Jun 2015, 22:51

If the weather when I was last in York is anything to go by, I suspect she is wearing high-heeled wellies.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 17 Jun 2015, 23:34

What a lovely Deany outfit from the Cathdral's dressing up box. Are  women clamouring to take office in non conformist places that lack such splendid wardrobes for all seasons and occasions? There are probably fewer nuns since many orders  kicked the habit.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyThu 18 Jun 2015, 00:19

Madame, you have caused me to remember the following quotation from the masterwork of history, which eclipses all others - 1066 And All That.

7. What have you done with your mother ? (If Nun, write None.)
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 21 Jun 2015, 15:43

I found this interesting ... another ancient body, that of Bishop Peder Winstrup who was interred in Lund Catheral, Sweden in 1679 ... with a companion.

The Guardian - Scan of mummified body of Swedish Bishop reveals baby hidden in coffin
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 01 Jul 2015, 09:57

I wonder where the baby interred with the Swedish bishop came from

To other things, I've seen that a lady called Annette Carson is very shortly bringing out a book about Richard before he became King.  Apparently Philippa Langley invited her to be a historical consultant to the "Looking for Richard" project.  Nonetheless her credentials (as recounted on  the "nerdalicious" website) look good, though I do wonder if the 46,000 books she is supposed to have written are actually articles.  The book is to be called "Richard Duke of Gloucester as Lord Protector and High Constable of England".  Has anybody any experience of Ms Carson's work - if so did they enjoy it?  I suppose if I really want to know if I would like it without paying out is to go the library loan route.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 01 Jul 2015, 10:08

I've got her Richard III: The Maligned King, LiR. I read it ages ago and enjoyed it, but I was going through my Rabid Ricardian period then.

I'm not too sure about Carson's academic credentials. She has written two other books: Flight Fantastic: The Illustrated History of Aerobatics and Jeff Beck: Crazy Fingers.

One can't imagine David Starkey bringing out a biography of Eric Clapton, but then again nothing these days would surprise me.

PS I've nearly finished G of T Season 4. Haven't the dragons grown? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 01 Jul 2015, 10:41

LadyinRetirement wrote:
I wonder where the baby interred with the Swedish bishop came from.

It has been suggested that as the child (it was a 6 month foetus) was born prematurely, very probably stillborn and so unlikely to have been baptised, it was put into the bishop's coffin so that it would still be buried, albeit unrecorded, in sanctified ground. Now this might have been done surrepticiously, or it may have been done with the full knowledge of those charged with preparing the bishop's body for burial (and possibly even with the knowledge and agreement of the dying bishop himself as a final act of charity/piety/humilty). I was unaware of this practice, but it seems that burying unbaptised children in the coffins of normal burials was quite common in many areas, even in Britain, well into the 20th century (and indeed it may still continue quietly in some places).  

It is possible that the two may be related and DNA samples were taken to investigate, amongst other things, whether this was the case.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 01 Jul 2015, 18:38

Temperance, wait till you see the dragons in season 5.

Thanks to Temperance and MM for replying to my queries.  I thought I had logged out of ResHistorica when I went out for a class this afternoon but seemingly not.  Got to give attention to something else now so hope I log out properly this time.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 01 Jul 2015, 23:39

Now that her beloved R111 has been almost raised to sainthood by the Univesity of Leicester, I wonder what happened to Minette. Has she just faded away, her life's mission over?
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 31 Jan 2016, 12:04

Where is Minette indeed? I wonder if she has been watching Dan Jones's Britain's Bloody Crown?

Jones is clearly not a fan of Richard III. He pronounces him "almost certainly" guilty of the unsolved crime ( that is of murder of the Princes - "the slaying of two innocent young boys").

The acting is very funny places: Edward V looks like a bewildered young Prince William, and that nasty Buckingham (Richard's "henchman") - well, obviously a right villain (which, to be fair, he probably was).

Richard is increasingly hurt that no one seems to understand him: but he does look positively petulant at times, especially when dealing with Hastings.

And Hastings' beheading is described as "an act of terrorism". Mmm. Fashionable word, but it is applicable here?

Still got this week's episode to watch.

EDIT: Just watched the Margaret Beaufort programme. Lord, Jones is a biased reporter. Such emotive language! I thought historians were supposed to be balanced and neutral in their presentations? He was David Starkey's pupil, I believe. It shows.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyMon 01 Feb 2016, 13:19

It is almost drilled into history students as Rule Number One - never describe any action from before the early 70s as "terrorism". You will almost invariably misrepresent both the motive and the effect if you do, thereby proving that you haven't a bloody clue what you're talking about. Thanks for the heads up about this history-Dan's efforts (almost as pitiable as the other history-Dan's efforts, it seems).

What is it about Tricky Dicky III that brings the worst so-called "historians" scurrying from behind the wainscoting in such eager and fetid little multitudes? Could it be the faint rustle of potential pecuniary plenitudes, I wonder? And while we're at it - we now approach the third anniversary (this Thursday, to be precise) of the day when we were all told to hold our collective breath and await the now infamous in its absence peer-reviewable data, excerpts from which (or at least so we were to believe) were used to titillate our collective collegiate curiosities regarding just how identification of the car-park incumbent could so swiftly and so definitely have been ascertained. Those who took the charlatans up on their offer will now be rubbing souls with Richard himself, I reckon, what with self-induced asphyxiation being a sure-fire route to hell-fire, at least inasmuch as I hear from those who apparently know these things.

Fortunately for me I breathed out as soon as I heard the gumph. It's an instinctive reaction, I fear.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyTue 23 Feb 2016, 23:58

Meanwhile, has the shade Ol' King Dicky has been interceding on behalf of his adopted burial (maybe) place and inspiring their fitba' club...........

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 KGrHqVn0FHdW0VsyBR9UrDPTfQ60_12_zpsv1lydzbo



http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-responsible-Leicester-City-s-title/story-28654839-detail/story.html
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2016, 09:43

I've found Richard III's horoscope - do you think I dare post it? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2016, 10:04

I see he was also a Libra.............   Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2016, 10:10

Yeah - you'd better all watch your backs. You don't mess with us Librans...   Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2016, 13:35

I meant to post this yonks ago, but forgot.

In 2014, 16 year old Jack Magee from Melrose in the Scottish Borders won that year's British Cartoonists' Association's (BCA) Young Cartoonist of the Year competition with this entry, doodled in a half hour or so . I liked it, and still do ...

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 23DAF8A000000578-0-image-a-10_1417999377998
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 26 Feb 2016, 11:38

Oh, and then there was this from just after the car park fiasco ...

The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 VickyPark1

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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 07 May 2016, 12:08

A detailed comparison of Richard III v. Claudio Ranier here:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-35842145




The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 _88633564_hi031697174



PS That tomb is rapidly becoming a Leicester City supporters' shrine. They'll be flogging relics in Leicester soon and claiming more miracles. If they did it for useless Henry VI, why not for our man?

I should have put this on Religions the Benefits thread, but perhaps not.



The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 Nun-soccer
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 07 May 2016, 12:59

As someone who absolutely despises all organised team sports, I'm rather surprised I noticed this, but there you go...

Richard III on Leicester City


Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this championship.
Although, in truth, a York man in my heart
(Though some of course dispute I have that valve)
The Minstermen this term have shown such poor defence
They are condemnéd to the Conference.


Since Leicester was my final resting place,
Following my reverse at Bosworth Field,
The Foxes have became my second love,
A steady passion for my vulpine ways.
And after last year’s fight with relegation
How sweet the plaudits of a smitten nation.

Unheralded when this campaign began,
Our team of misfits put the stars to flight.
Vardy, Mahrez, the tireless N’Golo Kanté,
Huth, Simpson, Schlupp, inspiring captain Wes.
The vigilant Schmeichel patrolling his steely line
Drinkwater you will say, but I prefer wine.

"Who gives a Fuchs?" That was always my motto.
I rose against the odds to win the crown.
In Leicester I see that same will to succeed,
Doing down the critics and naysayers, all.
I, too, was mocked, my public always wary,
Just like the mighty Claudio Ranieri.

Together we are vindicated, Claudio and I,
My move from car park to cathedral
Mirroring his from tinker to talisman.
The King Power Stadium, how I love that name,
A palace of fire and fury, fame and favour,
All funded by Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha.

Next season we will do it all again, and more.
Madrid and Munich will feel our stern resolve.
Dubters will mock, bookmakers price us down,
But we will prick their baseless prophecies.
Our team will steer us through the fearsome thicket.
Oh! my kingdom for a premium season ticket.

....none of that cod poetry makes any sense to me at all, but then as I say team sports, and especially football, are a matter of utter indifference to me. Who indeed "gives a Fuchs"?


Last edited by Meles meles on Sat 07 May 2016, 13:24; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : lost internet connection while posting)
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 07 May 2016, 13:12

I think that speech should be printed out here, MM. I wonder if any of our posters could have done a better one? I suspect our Leader could have...

I can't get the vid to play.

Richard III's most famous speech, as reimagined by Stephen Moss:
 




Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this championship.
Although, in truth, a York man in my heart
(Though some of course dispute I have that valve)
The Minstermen this term have shown such poor defence
They are condemnéd to the Conference.

Since Leicester was my final resting place,
Following my reverse at Bosworth Field,
The Foxes have became my second love,
A steady passion for my vulpine ways.
And after last year’s fight with relegation
How sweet the plaudits of a smitten nation.

Unheralded when this campaign began,
Our team of misfits put the stars to flight.
Vardy, Mahrez, the tireless N’Golo Kanté,
Huth, Simpson, Schlupp, inspiring captain Wes.
The vigilant Schmeichel patrolling his steely line
Drinkwater you will say, but I prefer wine.
 
“Who gives a Fuchs?” That was always my motto.
I rose against the odds to win the crown.
In Leicester I see that same will to succeed,
Doing down the critics and naysayers, all.
I, too, was mocked, my public always wary,
Just like the mighty Claudio Ranieri.

Together we are vindicated, Claudio and I,
My move from car park to cathedral
Mirroring his from tinker to talisman.
The King Power Stadium, how I love that name,
A palace of fire and fury, fame and favour,
All funded by Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha.

Next season we will do it all again, and more.
Madrid and Munich will feel our stern resolve.
Doubters will mock, bookmakers price us down,
But we will prick their baseless prophecies.
Our team will steer us through the fearsome thicket.
Oh! my kingdom for a premium season ticket.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 07 May 2016, 13:15

You've edited your post!
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 07 May 2016, 13:20

Sorry ... Temp you were too quick .... I was cutting and pasting during a thunderstorm, with a dodgey internet connection and wasn't quite sure what I'd managed to send, and the formatting seemed to be all over the place.

And so yes .... I did edit my post. Embarassed
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySun 15 May 2016, 11:48

Next Saturday everyone - Benedict as Richard in The Hollow Crown.

He's already been nicely vindictive in Henry VI - looking forward to his big performance next week. I do hope he gets Richard's sardonic humour across.

Gosh, that Margaret of Anjou was a nasty piece of work. Sort of an early stab at a Lady Macbeth type of bad b*tch. Has to be admitted that Henry VI isn't a very good play, but W. Wobbleweapon did show promise with it.

PS There is apparently a scene where a naked Benedict shows his hump: they modelled it on Richard's spine, as discovered in the carpark.


Philomena Cunk has done a programme on Shakespeare.  Here are two clips.




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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyWed 14 Dec 2016, 20:07

Minette,

it seems to be that this is the continuation of the former thread.
I recently touched the subject as I read "The Shadow Prince" from Terrence Morgan:

https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1046-perkin-warbeck

If you want to pick in I promise to read the whole thread part I and II... Cool

In the meantime I started reading: "The Captive Queen" from Alison Weir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alison_Weir
about Eleonora of Aquitaine, also an acquaintance of you if I remember it well...
And she wrote also a non-fiction about the Princes in the Tower...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 16 Dec 2016, 20:50

Minette,

"And she wrote also a non-fiction about the Princes in the Tower..."
http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-the-princes-in-the-tower/#gsc.tab=0
However in the above text:
"However, readers should be aware that Weir is a popular historian and that if one is looking for a careful academic history of the controversy surrounding the Princes in the Tower, they should look to other sources."
Hmm, that princes in the tower story seems rather complex and controversial...

"about Eleonora of Aquitaine, also an acquaintance of you if I remember it well..."
Now I recall it again from the old BBC boards: your acquintance was Margaret of Valois the wife of Henri IV. Our Henri IV: Paris vaut bien une messe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Valois

La Reine Margot

And you were also right with Charles II grandson of Henry IV via
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrietta_Maria_of_France

and yes Charles was perhaps a pragmatist and hedonist as his grandfather.

But I always mix them up those Margerets and Eleonores...
I was thinking about that other Margaret

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Nesle_Affair
"Philip IV placed the knights under surveillance for a period, and the scandal began to take shape. The accusations centred on suggestions that Blanche and Margaret had been drinking, eating and engaging in adultery with Gautier and Philippe d'Aunay in the Tour de Nesle over a period"

Kind regards, Paul.
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Minette Minor
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 27 Jan 2017, 22:05

Good to see that this is still going strong! 

Just watched with fear and trepidation, Lucy Worsley's, "History's Biggest Fibs" or something like that about Richard III. I like her a lot and she has the common touch of a popular and solid historian...whatever that is. Kate Evans (?) was once, (use the question mark because so many of my daughters' friends were called that) and now she's judging the Booker Prize, on game shows and reviewing the news when bored. Tristram Hunt (ex MP and "historian")  will soon no doubt be up for a "Mr Universe" title while caring for the V and A and Whitbread Award....Yet I was very wary of watching this programme. I'm not sure if I was right. 

Ms Worsley is good. But I've been asked so many times, "who are you aiming at"? That I can't help but ask, who was she? She did Tudor's lack of a claim, Shakespeare, Towton....actually the more I think of it the less I think she did cover. She did Beef Eaters and spin and Rous but what else? Except that History is written by the victors and Anthony Sheare "did" his RIII as a scutlling spider. She ended with RIII being discovered and having a twisted spine/scleroisis/ ergo he was true to Shakespeare in part?
I can't help but thank the Lord that I am not a disabled, "Historian", (if I am one) or I would be so very angry! And I'm cross anyway! No one can deny that the medieval mindset reflected that a manic, wicked mind was reflected by the appropriate contorted body. And Ms Worsely's parting shot was that RIII's body showed that he had Scelroisis. Touche! 
I watched Ian McElleran's, "Who do you think you are"? the other night and thought how lovely. And yet he was quite happy to cast Richard III into the pits of Hell while the fragarant Dame Kirsten Scott Thomas  (Anne Neville) was "shooting up" next to him in a Limousine to end the agony of being with him.                  
I like Shakespeare's Sonnets and can recite some all through but believe a lot of rot is spoken about the writer of all time. Says who? Perhaps I belonged to the last generation of those who were made to read so many of them and actually did through force. His jokes were not funny and so many twins were weird. Romeo and Juliet makes me cry because Brother Lawrence could have made it work! Lovely words can be found in the King James Bible. We all worship at Shakespeare's shrine when he was probably the Earl of Oxford, the de Vere, Earl of Oxford, a Lancastrian and if Vanessa Redgrave and Derek Jacobi think this then who am I to question?     

It is Friday, January 27th and I predict that Lucy Worsley will tell us next week about the Glorious Revolution of 1688 that it was a King Lear affair and not Glorious at all. Mary did not want to marry William the Orange (II there and third here) and like Charles II said, (he never liked William! He was a boring and beuraucratic king who used weasel words to be a great Prot.) James II would be beaten withing 18 months. Not many people realize this but there were more Dutch ships in the sea in 1688 then Spanish in 1588/9. We were invaded by the Dutch! Yet again the Victor writes the spoils and anyway I'm Welsh and we never count. And of course the Dutch Prots would ensure that the Irish "Problem" was never really sorted out. But back to RIII! 
If I was Black I would be furious if actors "blacked up" to play "me" as "Othello". But it doesn't happen any more. And so why on earth is it alright to play RIII as a, "scuttling spider" and all the other deformed forms RIII will take by members of the RSC to push a thought? Crush an envelope and all that stuff? Sorry to be so long!
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Minette Minor
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 27 Jan 2017, 22:07

I seem to have missed a bit! Henricians are not used to dissent!  Shocked.
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Minette Minor
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 27 Jan 2017, 22:20

I knew that Laurance Olivier produced, directed and starred in his, "Richard III" version of 1955 but I didn't know that at the same time it was televised to 40 million American TV subscribers at the same time. And we worry about Facebook....You can't libel the dead.
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyFri 27 Jan 2017, 23:38

You are great Paul! x
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 28 Jan 2017, 13:38

Minette, I tend to think of Shakespeare as a man of his time and that (I'm sure I mentioned this before some considerable time ago) as he was working during Queen Elizabeth I's reign and as that lady was the granddaughter of Henry VII he (Shakespeare) had to write the version that would be the least likely in resulting in him being tried for treason.  I know Temperance said there is a theory that Shakespeare also used "Richard's" character to in truth write about somebody who was still alive in his (Shakespeare's) lifetime.  Also, it's possible that the publicly accepted (I'm not saying that it was correct; I honestly don't can't decide who is the good party and who the bad party in the events leading up to The Battle of Bosworth) version is the one that was apparently put about at that time that Richard III was a naughty lad.  How many people would there be capable of actually remembering Richard in person by the time Shakespeare was writing?  Still, if Master Shakespeare is not your "cuppa" it's not for me to tell you what you should or should not like.  Such things are instinctive anyway.  I mean, I could appreciate (nothing to do with Shakespeare) that Mad Men and The Sopranos were well acted but I did not really like those series or, after having tried them on recommendation from other people and finding they were not my "kind of thing" go out of my way to watch them.  So I tend to cut Shakespeare a fairly liberal amount of slack in this area.  I agree that people can be put off reading/watching things by enforced study at school (perhaps it was the way the teaching took place). Going back to when I was at school (it was the year of the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare's birth, so 1964) some of us went with the school to see a performance of Richard III with Ian Holm in the title role.  I remember in the blurb on the programme it said that they were looking at Richard as a man who had been forced to play the power game (there was a series on TV about businessmen called The Power Game at the time I remember).

I remember learning something at school about the Dutch fleet sailing up the Medway (whether in Charles II's or James II's reign I don't recall).


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sun 05 Mar 2017, 00:41; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : For clarity - one of my original sentences did not read well (in fact I don't think it was grammatically correct). Oops.)
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptySat 28 Jan 2017, 18:23

LadyinRetirement wrote:

I remember learning something at school about the Dutch fleet sailing up the Medway (whether in Charles II's or James II's reign I don't recall).

It was under Charles II, LiR ... the raids lasted for several days starting about the 19th June 1667 (New Style dating); 9th June Old Style.

John Evelyn in his diary wrote:

10th June, 1667. To London, alarmed by the Dutch, who were fallen on our fleet at Chatham, by a most audacious enterprise, entering the very river with part of their fleet, doing us not only disgrace, but incredible mischief in burning several of our best men-of-war lying at anchor and moored there, and all this through our unaccountable negligence in not setting out our fleet in due time.

This alarm caused me, fearing the enemy might venture up the Thames even to London (which they might have done with ease, and fired all the vessels in the river, too), to send away my best goods, plate, etc., from my house
[Sayes Court, at Deptford] to another place. The alarm was so great that it put both country and city into fear, panic, and consternation, such as I hope I shall never see more; everybody was flying, none knew why or whither."

Due to lack of funds the English fleet was essentially in mothballs, moored, largely unmanned, in the Thames/Medway opposite Chatam. In a series of daring raids the Dutch burned three capital ships and ten lesser naval vessels, and captured and towed away two ships of the line; HMS Unity and the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles. It was all rather embarrassing.
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Minette Minor
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyTue 07 Mar 2017, 16:18

Hello Lady in Retirement!
I'm still loitering here SST and Precilla!
I think the man people believe RIII may have been based on was Robert Cecil, Lord Burley's son, whom no one liked. Not sure if he had a hunch back but he looked rather odd apparently. What is interesting is that there are some letters in the so called "Signet Collection" which I think are important, and they were in the possession of Robert Cecil for some reason! Perhaps he was interested in RIII. But they are quite lovely...  
No one destroyed them because no one thought them to be important. They are from RIII about things that must be done for example, (sorry I can't remember the names of the people I just came across this!) one man was in RIII's service and while he was away his barn burned down and so RIII said that he must be re-imbursed for the loss. Another is about the widow of a soldier who was in RIII's service and he's making provision for her and her family. Imagine that. Such small things which really don't fit with the tyrant profile. Can't imagine Henry Tudor (or any of them come to that) doing such things. 
Another interesting point is that after Henry VI died some people said miracles were performed in his name and there was a small push to have him looked at as a saint. Guess who was part of this? Yes! RIII, quite extraordinary and yet another thing concerning him which goes under the radar.

I try not to watch televised re-enactments of RIII's life, I'm just tired of saying, "you missed a bit" and being cross! I also think the Dean and Chapter of York Minster should be ashamed for not pushing to have RIII there. If it wasn't for him there would be no York Minster. 
Dead right that RIII is complex. I think if we want to "do" him properly then we must do The Hundred Year War then causes of the Wars of the Roses, the rise of the Beauforts and Woodvilles then back to EdIV's government and relations with France, RIII gaining the Throne, then what he actually did as King (was he a socialist even!) then HVII and HVIII and what happened to the Plantagenets and finally Simnell and the Battle of Stoke, Warbeck and just imagine.....
All this talk of the flaming Princes in the tower and it's quite possible that hundreds of morons may have watched the younger Prince, Richard of York, being hung. drawern and quartered on Tower Hill! It really is quite possible. Anyway, so glad this is still going. There's still lots to do!
Happy Cheers, 
Minette.
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Minette Minor
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PostSubject: Re: The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)   The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 EmptyTue 07 Mar 2017, 16:21

Didn't mean to break up the Medway Scandel with Charles II and brother James, it is interesting.
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The Princes in the Tower (Round Two) - Page 17 Empty
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The Princes in the Tower (Round Two)

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