Priscilla wrote:

Most of the big stars of his era - Wayne, Mitchum, James Stewart played the same role - themselves - in every film

A lot still do today, Niicholas Cage, Tom Cruise, Brad Pit, Meryl Streep, just to name a few. There are not many who come out of Hollywood who can act enough to make you forget who is playing a part. I don't really watch movies anymore so am not sure if there has been improvement in the newest crop of actors though, wouln't even know their names come to think of it..

When was it ever any different? The "big" stars as far back as David Garrick and beyond have always been as much an attraction for their presence in a production as for their acting capabilities, which vary considerably in terms of talent amongst them. It was really only a recent phase (and one which appears on the wane) that "method acting" and the like created stars rightly praised for their acting versatility and who could match the others when it came to box-office draw. But with only a very few exceptions the tendency for this breed of actor is that they become as typecast as the next unless they are very lucky, and eventually be subsumed into the mainstream production system if they wish to remain employed.

The truly versatile actors, the ones trained in rep and touring company values where one must expected to play anything, anytime, anywhere, have long coexisted with the "big" stars, well before method acting etc, and were labelled almost dismissively as "character actors" (when one thinks about it this should be a meaningless qualification to apply to an actor). These however were often the real winners in the Hollywood system - beloved of casting directors, so pretty much guaranteed steady employment throughout a long career, enjoying flexibility of contracts when the "stars" were tied to studios under draconian terms, and appreciated by general audiences who often judged the potential enjoyment of the film favourably should their names pop up in the opening credits, sometimes even more so than the names of the so-called stars upon which the film's marketing and hopes for success had been pinned.

Surely most of the screen idols were the making of the female audience… the chunky he-man heart throb types that the women ‘swooned’ over. Do women still ‘swoon’ or am I just showing my age… as a kid I used to think any film with Wayne was bound to be good… until the Alamo, it changed my attitude towards him forever. Be it chasing injuns down some dusty dry river bed in a canyon, scrapping in a western bar room brawl, skippering a paddle ship down the back of beyond, traipsing across the hot burning sands of the Sahara with Sofia Loren or pushing his men up the beach at Iwo Jima… the style never changed only the costumes. Can’t stand Cary Grant, used to like Stewart Granger… saw him on a TV interview, what a poser. Always liked Burt Lancaster, Gary Cooper, Gregory Peck and those of that era… who’s the leading men of today… Pit, Matt Damon… I’m lost. Thank god the bumbling Grant’s lost his appeal…


Actresses… I can’t think of one. As soon as a leading lady turned up on screen, the music changed to some slushy seductive tune… and everything focused on boobs, bums and sex. One of my favourite actresses was Joan Hickson in Miss Marples… the best Miss Marples ever IMO.

normanhurst wrote:

Surely most of the screen idols were the making of the female audience… the chunky he-man heart throb types that the women ‘swooned’ over.

Oho, them is fighting words Norman!

John Wayne, Charles Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Sylvester Stalone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mae West, Marylin Munroe, Sophia Loren, Britt Ekland, Bridgette Bardot, Gina Lollobrigida (to name a few) were/are all major stars because of male swooning, much more so than female.

Sorry ID… but I have to say I’ve never had a ‘swoon’ over any of the cast you’ve mentioned… may have raised my temperature over… nah… not even her.

wish I knew how you do quotes.

You click on the "quote" button in the message which contains that which you wish to quote. This opens a reply box with that entire message's text contained within BCC code for quoting. You simply delete anything not required from within these two pices of code if you wish and carry on.

Gee thanks...

You asked.

normanhurst wrote:

Sorry ID… but I have to say I’ve never had a ‘swoon’ over any of the cast you’ve mentioned… may have raised my temperature over… nah… not even her.

wish I knew how you do quotes.

So why assume that women would be any different, and would keel over at the hunky thick headed types?

My mother once forcibly dragged her (not altogether unwilling) husband-to-be from a cinema, her dudgeon raised to a point beyond the rafters, caused in no small measure by the sight of John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara jointly plunging the international conception of Ireland back to somewhere in the pre-neolithic (with priests). Not to mention the physically violent method of dealing with women portrayed by the film's leading male role.

As my father remembered it however, the problem was not that he was being marched out of a film half-way through at the behest of a girlfriend whose vocal derision of the film might attract embarrassing attention from their peers, but that the queue to get out at that point exceeded that which they had endured to come in.

Your Mum sounds like a very sensible woman indeed, Nordmann. Sometimes the patronisation and ignorance of Hollywood can be quite offensive, and John Wayne was ever nothing short of an idiot.

My father liked him though and watched all his films. Can't even begin to fathom why.

Found it, ferval - though someone edited the "awe" out!

I have three much older sisters… the eldest, very much influenced the other two but I remember the ‘swooning’ the ‘sighing’ the sulks, huffs, and door slamming if father displayed any lack of interest in one of the ‘stars’ of the day that they had fallen in love with, until the following week.

As there’s a series of programmes showing on the TV now, ‘the how we were type’, they clearly show the women being far more interested in the film stars than the men… and then there’s the pop stars of the day, the screaming girls greeting pop stars at the airports etc.… but all in all it’s probably the way men have portrayed women to react to elevate the ‘star’ they’re promoting and inviting a kind of mass hysteria… good for business. I did my share of the pop concerts etc… but I certainly never saw the guys screaming and grabbing to get a piece of some girl stars shirt, but I saw the look of horror on the faces of some of the guys when they came off stage, to run the gauntlet of the screaming girl fans.

And proof that the German version of the Duke was balder than that for US and British consumption:

But they are children Norman, a minority and hardly indicative of the female audience as you said above.

Thanks!

A truly dreadful film, redolent with all the cultural authenticity of Brigadoon but without the music. That man had good reason to be quiet, better still he had been silenced at birth. Do you think that the Irish diaspora, at a few generations remove, still harbours that kind of vision of the auld sod - the country, not John W? A large part of the Scots version still seems to be in thrall to the myth of a wee hoose 'mang the heather and a happy clan under the beneficence of the kindly chieftain at the same time as holding onto a visceral hatred of the descendants of that same chieftain evicting g g g granny from her lonely shieling on the misty island.
Never mind, they'll soon be providing the only source of income for our respective celtic fringes.

edit - that was a flurry of interest, the conversation has moved on!

Aforementioned friends in the USA (from another thread) also provided me with some real humour, ferval. They were a very sweet (I think "saccharine" is the term, though in this case maybe "strychnine") couple and, as the end of my stay approached, they took to sending me out of the house for an hour each evening as they prepared a little "surprise" for me on my last day with them. From the sounds emanating from their cellar as I dutifully patrolled their garden for the appointed hour each day and chewed on my nicoretta, I reckoned that the "sweet" thing had been a cover for some very Fred Westish tendencies which now, on my penultimate day in their land, would be executed on my person and this would be the last the world would ever know of little nordmann. See how lucky you nearly all were?


But I digress. The husband, Joe, was proud of something he called his "Ayerish hurritage sixth gen'rashun" (his name was Sicilian, but that means nothing over there) and it had slowly dawned on me that this in fact may have had something to do also with the nature of this "surprise" in store for me, especially when the sounds of screaming and thumping from the cellars began to be intermixed with distinct strains of "Little Nelly Kelly" and "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" at intervals.

When the big day came the cellar was transformed into an auditorium-cum-buffet and we all enjoyed raw fish on toothpicks for a while until Joe's wife clapped her hands and ushered the assembled throng to be seated, myself in the position of honour just before the "stage". Joe's absence throughout was thus explained - he had been off in the wings preparing his act, a suitably "Irish" one of course, which in the intensity and duration of its preparation had begun to rival that of Daniel Day Lewis. I sat transfixed with suspense as I waited to see what version of Barry Fitzgerald's Darby O'Gill I was about to receive in my honour.

His wife did the intro with great gusto and aplomb, ensuring to mention that she hoped what was about to transpire would make her honoured guest less homesick and "all set up" to return to the land of emeralds etc etc. Cue Joe - who bounded on to the stage like a tiger, his face blackened, a chimney sweep's brush over his shoulder, and a passable rendition of Dick Van Dyke's impassable rendition of a cockney in Mary Poppins, complete with dance routine and the entire lyrics of Chim Chimanee rendered faithfully, if breathlessly, and if with a slight Mafia menace to it all.

You gotta love 'em though ...

Great story, Nord, I enjoyed that... But now I dare's ya go post that on the historum board, American History section.

Light blue touch paper and..... run away!

Wonderful Nordmann, I needed something to make me laugh and that worked but it hasn't helped my sore back!

I found one of my mother's high dudgeon moments, ferval!

Not a film but a TV series - however Claudius's "acceptance speech" to the senators on being made emperor is always worth another viewing:

Thank you for finding that, Nordmann - splendid - as was D. Jacobii's trophy acceptance speech. Only goes to show what quality we are missing and how inferior performance too often comes into reward.

From the brilliance of Derek Jacobi to the dubious acting abilities of Rock Hudson and Doris Day. Although, I don't think there would be too much going on when the lights are out for Doris if the fellow is the (missnamed) Rock.

I'm struggling to find the historical context here ...

That is because there is none! I just accidentally came across it and thought it was a good laugh. But I suppose the film itself and the acting style is now historical, even if the plot is not ........

ferval wrote:

Thanks!

A truly dreadful film, redolent with all the cultural authenticity of Brigadoon but without the music. That man had good reason to be quiet, better still he had been silenced at birth. Do you think that the Irish diaspora, at a few generations remove, still harbours that kind of vision of the auld sod - the country, not John W? A large part of the Scots version still seems to be in thrall to the myth of a wee hoose 'mang the heather and a happy clan under the beneficence of the kindly chieftain at the same time as holding onto a visceral hatred of the descendants of that same chieftain evicting g g g granny from her lonely shieling on the misty island.
Never mind, they'll soon be providing the only source of income for our respective celtic fringes.

edit - that was a flurry of interest, the conversation has moved on!

Bet you can't wait for this one, Ferval;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEHWDA_6e3M

Ok folks, back to history.

Another very moving scene ...

Dustin Hoffman (should that be Hoffperson, in this PC age??) strikes me as one of the few 'stars' who can play a part, rather than himself. I loved 'Little Big Man', which contains the finest line I have ever heard in a film.

The one where the old Cheyenne Chief asks him about his wife -
'Does she respond with enthusiasm when you mount her?'
Delivered with a gloriously straight face!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps-v-kZzfec



The Odessa Steps sequence

Just noticed the trailer Nordmann, wish I hadn't!

That was from Trike, ferval. Wish he hadn't noticed it either!

Oops, I'm blaming the wrong person but then, I won't shoot the messenger, I'll go after the bloody Disney corp. I wonder why they chose the title, seems an odd one to me? A blatant attempt to cash in on wee Mel's success or something more subtle like a subconscious link with the western stereotypical 'indian', or even the 'noble savage'?
I'm afraid I'll have to see it at some point but it looks like a good one for a film night at the university arch. soc. The worse the film, the more the drink flows and the better the craic.

There is so much historically incorrect here - simple little things like haircuts, accents, the rules of soccer, pele's amazing healing powers, facts, Mike Summerbee's concern for Stallone and so on, but I still reckon it merits inclusion.

If historical accuracy were the criterion, this would be a very short thread.

Has anyone ever seen these? There are loads of them,here are three samples;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcoVxbutl8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQrRg3LtjXY

One of the most memorable scenes ever;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Quote :

One of the most memorable scenes ever;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Mon Dieu, I wish our Mayor could lead us in "La Marseilleise" comme ça....

Last November 11th we were all there in the village square gathered around the memorial.... about 80 villagers from a population of 250, a squad from the local scout troop, a couple of volunteer part-time firemen, the local policeman, a school basketball team on an exchange trip from Strassbourg, and of course several old soldiers and the banners of the Légion des Ancien Combattants (the French equivalent of the British Legion)...

... oh, and Monsieur le Maire....

After stumbling through a short address, and the two minute silence, all he had to do was lead us all in singing the national anthem.... but it was immediately apparent that he doesn't know the words.... (it was a bit like John Redwood as Welsh Secretary feebly trying to do "Land of My Fathers" )....

... but like in "Cassablanca" eveyone else struck up, young old, native or foreign, sopranos and grumbling basses... And we all did it without any instrumental accompaniment! Musically it was awful (and not necessarily in the ancient sense of the word) ... but at least, I think, the Mayor got the message.

We're getting a lot of spontaneous Marsellaise singing on this thread. Any other spontaneous historical singing in the movies? (Or do the French have a monopoly?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3Bcgh4Jko&feature=related anygood?

That might be your anthem, norm mate, but I was thinking more in the sense of "national" ones.

This one isn't quite a national anthem either but boy was it scary the first time I saw it as a nipper.



tomorrow belongs to me

If it is anthems you are after, funny accents and all

Not sure you or norm quite get the point of this thread, ID.

You could, for example, have opted for probably the best political thriller ever made - even more chilling since it depicted the truth of the Lambrakis assassination and was released two years into the junta's reign in Greece. Our favourite composer features heavily in this series of clips, which is a pity really as it therefore hops over the most chilling bit in the whole film - the bland list of everything cultural banned in Greece under the colonels which prefaced the closing credits.

Nordmann:

Yes, the Hitler Youth singing that Bavarian folk song... scary.. but a lovely song... beautifully sung too, all the more haunting because we know what it signifies.

I sing that song, sometimes, in the garden,.. it is a very catchy song .... but after "Cabaret" preferably only when I know the neighbours are away as one of them is German and I'd rather not offend.

Yet still it is a very good song and tune.. and so why should I be so sensitive...

And why should the "Devil" have all the good tunes?

The finale of "Oh what a Lovely War",the crosses were laid out by hand,being long before CGI;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f95idVQEXI

The song from Cabaret has a double resonance for me, once from seeing the film where it managed to convey, not the banality, but the seductiveness of evil when what can be positive and affirming emotions are perverted but also this from 1987.

Oh hell, I've now got that song as an earworm, I'm going to start singing 'Fatherland, fatherland' etc on the bus. Somebody please post something that might replace it.

I'll try Ferval'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaGsbv2skr8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lhu9EOpEMA

couple of jaunty tunes.

Nice try Trike but there's no words. I need words for complete eradication. I could watch the Casablanca' clip, that would work I know from previous experience, but I'd rather have something new or even better nothing!

How about this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZkouut-9RQ should be OK for singing on the bus.

On the whole I think the 'Bright Side' is safer even if less apposite to a Glasgow bus.

We'd better get back on topic or our leader will complain.
Does the devil really have the best tunes? - here's one I remember