Thank you for kind words, Viz. Cheered me up no end.

I've been thinking about the death of Elizabeth I, too, and how the nation is stunned today in 2022, just as it was in March 1603. The country knew then - and now - that even "lasses unparalleled" must die, but somehow our late Queen, like her Tudor predecessor, seemed immortal. Here is John Stow:


Westminster was surcharged with multitudes of all sorts of people in their streets, houses, windows, leads and gutters, that came to see the obsequy, and when they beheld her statue lying upon the coffin, there was such a general sighing, groaning and weeping as the like hath not been seen or known in the memory of man, neither doth any history mention any people, time or state to make like lamentation for the death of their sovereign...

It's not the maudlin outpourings that followed the death of the late Diana, Princess of Wales, just the realisation that we are waking up to a new era.

GG's comment about that brave, if fanatical, Protestant child's request for no prayers for her once she was dead was so interesting. I noticed with surprise that last night Lambeth announced that all Anglican churches will be open today, so that we can all go and pray for our departed monarch. This Archbishop always manages to get it wrong. Not that obscure Protestant theology really matters to many people these days, but I rather think our departed "Prince" does not need praying for - the rest of us here do, including her son, the new King, and his newly appointed Ministers of State. Thinking of the latter, one can only offer up a fervent prayer: "God help us."

Musing on Temperance's words about a new era being upon us (I know you didn't say it quite thus, Temperance), I remembered reading in one of the Forsyte Chronicles about a character ('young' Jolyon I think - long time since I read the book) musing upon all things passing when people go to watch (or get as near to watching as they can) the passing of the funeral cortege of Queen Victoria.  Three of the queens regnant of the UK had long reigns, the two Elizabeths and Victoria (as Res Historians well know of course).

I was surprised that Queen Elizabeth II deteriorated so quickly.  Don't misunderstand me, I know she was a 'good age' and had been frail but she coped with the resignation of one Prime Minister and appointment of another so very recently.  'Might have been' as they say 'never was' but I had thought the late Queen might live on to 100 or more like her late mother.

I might have mentioned before that I remember - not in great detail - going with my mother to the house of one of her friends to watch Queen Elizabeth II's coronation.  I can recall Queen Salote of Tonga being spoken of respectfully because she didn't let the rain affect her - though to be honest I may be confabulating talks about Queen Salote after the occasion.

Temperance wrote:

I've been thinking about the death of Elizabeth I, too, and how the nation is stunned today in 2022, just as it was in March 1603. The country knew then - and now - that even "lasses unparalleled" must die, but somehow our late Queen, like her Tudor predecessor, seemed immortal.  

Yes indeed. Actually I think there are quite a few echoes between the England of 1603 and the England (and Britain) of 2022. In March 1603 the country was suffering from rapidly rising prices for nearly all essential commodities; there was bank inflation with English coinage, although still supposedly backed by its weight in gold, nevertheless losing value against other international currencies; there was increasing poverty especially amongst the lowest in society and with all the consequent fears about civil unrest; in March there had been renewed outbreaks of the plague (thought to have been finally killed-off the last year); and the country was involved in a costly overseas war (then being fought in Ireland and the Low Countries). While there was certainly an outpouring of popular grief for the departed queen, there was also considerable worry about what might happen next and a feeling that the certainties that came from a long period of relatively stable, if not always popular, government, were about to go.

That a definitive "era" might be over was widely said at the time, both in the private writings of diarists but also in the more public observations of pamphleteers and other contemporary writers. Many relatively unbiased observers (for example the young lawyer John Manningham in his personal diary) recorded how the people of London heard the proclamations of Elizabeth's death and that the government's plan was that the crown should pass to James VI, with nothing other than an anxious silence - no sobbing tears of grief nor any great cheers of joy for the continuation of the monachy - just stoic, almost sullen, silence. However one should note that the very first announcements of the Queen's death and the succession were pnly made publicly - but also rather tentatively, perhaps even covertly - by proclamations at Charing Cross, the Royal Exchange and at the Guildhall in London, which were all made in the quiet just before dawn of the 25 March, when few people would be abroad in the streets. Then as now the news was carefully drip-fed to the people. For many in 1603, Elizabeth had been the only sovereign they had ever known - and as Thomas Dekker the pamphleteer and dramatist had written (in 'The Wonderfull Yeare', publ. 1603), "This nation was begotten and born under her."

It's a rather similar situation today where most people in Britain (myself included) have known only Elizabeth II as their monarch. By contrast when she came to the throne in 1952, someone who was then of an age that I am now would have already experienced the successions of George VI, Edward VIII, George V, Edward VII and indeed even quite a few years of the reign of Victoria. Nevertheless despite all the changes during these monarch's reigns - not the least two world wars and all the technological advances since - the Britain that currently exists was largely forged during Elizabeth II's reign.

Just one minor point which is often overlooked. Elizabeth I died on 24 March, which was then and remained so until the calendar reforms of the mid-18th century, the very last day of the year, New Year's Eve (ie it was still 1602 by contempory reckoning). The next day, 25 March, New Year's Day 1603 by the calendar then in use, was then known, perhaps rather approprately, as Lady Day. Certainly by all the omens Elizabeth I's passing was the end of an era.

I've only really known Queen Elizabeth II as the monarch, since I was only 2 when she came to the throne, but when my sister and I were young we poured over the books we had on the Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret, so I feel I knew her when she was a young girl, which I didn't, of course.
Interested to see a list of the ten people in succession after Charles and the last one is called Sienna, a very modern name which doesn't sit well in my mind as a queen's name, but there would have to be some major disasters for her to become queen. She is Beatrice's daughter, I read.

Last night I watched some of the American (US) coverage of the day's events - the Accession Council meeting, the proclamations and gun salutes etc - and I was shocked at the ignorance (or lack of preparation) of the reporters and commentators appearing on such otherwise respected outlets as the Washington Post and CNN. There was almost universal confusion over The Commonwealth which many commentators seemed to think referred only to the relationship between Scotland and England although still somehow equating the United Kingdom with England alone;  while others seemed completely oblivious to the fact that Elizabeth had also been Queen of Australia, New Zealand and many other independent countries - not the least Canada, that rather large country that shares the North American continent with the USA. And don't get me started on their pronunciation of Edding-berg, Bal-morale and West-minister.

Nevertheless I was quite pleased by their awestruck, almost stunned reporting of the ceremonial public announcements. As indeed they should have been. I might be a crusty old atheist of a badger with republican leanings, but even I felt a frisson of history listening to the first public announcment by the Garter King of Arms. From the balcony of Henry VIII's palace the mass media of the 1500s – men in medieval tabards, furred bicorn hats and each carrying a staff of office - clambered through a window and then, announced by a clarion call from state trumpeters, proceeded to read aloud from a parchment document and proclaim the 'news' that the state now had a new liege lord and King. And while their announcement was captured on a thousand smartphones raised in salute, the words themselves rang with the echoes of history:

Whereas it has pleased almighty God to call to his mercy our late sovereign lady Queen Elizabeth II of blessed and glorious memory, by whose decease the crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is solely and rightfully come to the Prince Charles Philip Arthur George.

We, therefore, the lords spiritual and temporal of this realm, and members of the House of Commons, together with other members of Her late Majesty’s privy council, and representatives of the realms and territories, aldermen, and citizens of London and others, do now hereby, with one voice and consent of tongue and heart, publish and proclaim that the Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, is now, by the death of our late sovereign of happy memory, become our only lawful and rightful liege lord, Charles III, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, and of his other realms and territories, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the faith, to whom we do acknowledge all faith and obedience with humble affection, beseeching God, by whom kings and queens do reign, to bless His Majesty with long and happy years to reign over us.

God Save the King.

I know I can sometimes be a terrible cynic, but listening to that did bring a lump to my throat.

I may have said I watched Queen Elizabeth II's coronation when I was 3 - sorry I was 4, though I'd have been 3 when she became queen after her late father died. Although the monarchy seems remote to me as an ordinary citizen/subject I'll give Her Majesty credit for having been a good sport taking part in the Paddington Bear sandwiches sketch when she was probably seriously ill (I know we don't know the details).  I don't remember the late Queen's father.  I remember hearing something on the radio (some years later - it might have been around the time of the Queen's silver Jubilee) about someone taking a taxi and seeing the taxi driver crying because the King's death had been announced.  I wouldn't think of a London taxi driver as being a 'softy' but when I spoke about what I'd heard to members of the (then) older generation, I was told people admired King George VI because of his stuggles with his stutter and his taking on the role of King even if he hadn't been prepared for it and didn't want it.

remember watching her coronation, too, on our brand new 12" tv. No street party fo us (living on the main road & trolley bus route between Walsall and Bloxwich so far too busy), but iirc we had neighbours (2 related families) round to watch. Still had that TV with an adaptor when ITV came along.

I've been looking at the family tree of the Bowes-Lyons.  Mention is made of a George Bowes from County Durham but nonetheless it seems the late Queen Elizabeth II had a hefty dose of Scots heritage from her maternal side.  I have heard some chuntering* about the royal family being German (not on this site) but of course people of royal birth inherit from their mothers as well as their fathers.  Sophia, Electress of Hanover, was descended from the Stuarts (as I'm sure you all know).

*Though when I was younger I have been known to say something in that vein myself to tease.

I was surprised and saddened to see that Dame Hilary Mantel has died.  She was younger than me by a few years.

Yes that was a surprise. I was unaware of any underlying illness, although to be fair I don't closely follow the lives of celebrities and other well-known people. Her agent throughout her career, Ben Hamilton, has posted a fulsome obituary in which he said that it had been "the greatest privilege" to work with her, adding that "there was always a slight aura of otherworldliness about her, as she saw and felt things us ordinary mortals missed, but when she perceived the need for confrontation she would fearlessly go into battle." She certainly had a unique literary quality that many of us here have commented on while at the same time struggling to define exactly what it might be - but I think he's got it summed-up fairly accurately and succinctly.

So Coolio has taken off - hopefullyto somewhere better than this :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPO76Jlnz6c

I see actor Robbie Coltrane has died.  Another who was younger than me - though only by a year.  I was too old for the Harry Potter books and films and not having children or grandchildren I've never had occasion to read them to anyone else but I did see one Harry Potter film on the haunted fishtank one year at Xmas I think.  I'm not that familiar with Mr Coltrane's work but I believe he was a decent actor.

Hi LIR, I have read all the Harry Potter books mostly for my own enjoyment. I don't know if my kids read them or not; two of them are fiction readers, and the third is full of knowledge on scientific/economic things but I thinks he gets most of his knowledge from podcasts etc.
I found the HP books got heavier as the series went on, so I didn't enjoy the last two as much as the others.

Never read any of the HP stuff. Just not my scene. Did UK members hear Helen Mirren on Robbie C. this morning? And the coda on Jeremy Hunt?

Any Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire fans here?  Sadly, Wilko Johnson who played Ser Ilyn Payne has died https://www.nme.com/news/tv/wilko-johnson-ilyn-payne-game-of-thrones-tributes-3354589

Here's a younger Wilko playing and singing with the band Dr Feelgood in the 1970s.

We've lost another famous pop singer/musician in Christine McVie from Fleetwood Mac.  I liked the original Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green with a bluesy feel but the 1970s/80s version of the band did come out with some catchy and pleasant pop tunes.  01.12.2022

I always associate Fleetwood Mac with their song Albatross. I don't really think of any others. I expect to hear every week of a singer from the 60s when I was most interested in pop music to have died since most of them would be getting up to 80+. Even Paul McCartney is now 80 when I think of him as a 20-year-old. I used to be so interested in pop music and kept a note of every song I heard. Unfortunately I took that book with me when I went on holiday and lost it.

Was anybody else here a Law and Order fan?  I have been something of an addict though don't watch it as regularly now as I tend to watch TV on the laptop via iplayer these days.  I was sad to hear that Richard Belzer who played Munch in Law and Order SVU had died. I was surprised to learn that he had been a stand-up comedian earlier in his career.  Then I was surprised when I found out that Mariska Hartigay, one of the female leads in the show was Jayne Mansfield's daughter.

One of the most famous murderers from New Zealand has died. From the New Zealand Herald: "Best-selling crime author Anne Perry, originally known as Juliet Hulme, has died in the US at the age of 84.
"As a teenager, she was found guilty of aiding in the murder of her friend’s mother in Christchurch’s Port Hills, a crime that inspired Peter Jackson’s movie Heavenly Creatures."
I have read some of her books and they apparently vary in quality (according to my ratings); she wrote a series with a detective called William Pitt. I might look out for her books again, as I assume many NZers will. 
Pauline Parker, 16, and Juliet Hulme, 15, were two friends who planned to murder Honorah Parker, Pauline’s mother, because they thought she would keep them apart by not allowing her daughter to accompany Juliet when she left the country with her parents.
On the afternoon of June 22, 1954, the girls convinced Honorah to accompany them on a trip to Victoria Park in Christchurch’s Port Hills. They bashed her to death by striking her more than 20 times with a half-brick concealed inside a sock down a remote lane."
I have read a few of her books and they vary in quality at least according to my ratings. 
I don't know what happened to Pauline. But I must have read something of the case because the story of it is very familiar to me. I have probably watched the movie but that's not from where I have remembered it. 

I saw that film some years ago, Caro.  I saw it on the TV.  Since my TV broke I've watched television programmes via players like the BBC iplayer.  I remember being shocked that girls so young would commit murder but then there have been even younger murderers than the two lasses in this case.

I don't think I've read any of Anne Perry's books - if I have I forgot them.

I see that Mary Quant, one of the designers whose clothes appealed to some of the younger generation in the 1960s, has died.  I actually downloaded a free Mary Quant dress pattern from the V&A Museum site.  When it comes to sewing my eyes are bigger than my stomach so I should sew what I have in the house before I start thinking of acquiring other patterns.  Also, what suited me when I was a teenager may not suit me now I'm in my 70s.  I'm not planning on wearing any mini-dresses.  A mini-dress could double as a tunic on top of slacks or leggings.

I'm saddened to learn that Canadian singer/songwriter Gordon Lightfoot has died. He wrote many good songs. I have a good opinion of the song about TThe Wreck of the Edmund
Fitzgerald about a ship which sank in Lake Superior in 1975 with the loss of all hands. A very sad story.

A body had been discovered in California’s Sierra de San Gabriel 5 months after British actor Julian Sands went missing while hiking in the mountains there in January. The golden boy of British cinema in the 1980s he is remembered for such films as A Room with a View (1985) and Gothic (1986).
  


Sands as journalist Jon ‘Anketell Brewer’ Swain in The Killing Fields (1984).

The actor and singer David Soul has died. He was best known for playing Detective Kenneth Hutchinson in the 1970s California-set television police series Starsky & Hutch but also for his simultaneous (although separate) hit song Don’t Give Up on Us. 

In the 1990s he moved to Britain where he somewhat surprisingly became involved in politics supporting his friend Martin Bell. During the 1997 UK general election, the former television news correspondent stood as an independent ‘anti-corruption’ candidate in the Cheshire constituency of Tatton. The local campaign included the famous ‘Battle of Knutsford Heath’ in which the incumbent MP, Conservative Neil Hamilton and his wife Christine confronted Bell in the open air about his candidature. It’s widely viewed by neutrals that the Hamiltons actually won that debate, but Bell, nevertheless, went on to win the election. It’s suggested that his success was largely down to both Labour and Liberal Democrats withdrawing their candidates from that constituency. Less well known, perhaps, but possibly equally decisive was the phenomenon whereby the voters of Tatton had their doors knocked by a pro-Bell canvasser who turned out to be none other than Hutch and not just Hutch but Hutch canvassing barefoot.

Sad news.   I wasn't really a Starsky and Hutch fan but David Soul seemed a nice chap when he gave interviews.  I didn't know the late Mr Soul campaigned for Martin Bell.

Actress Glinys Johns has died at age 101.  Mention is being made of her playing Mrs Banks in Mary Poppins.  I can vaguely remember a TV series she featured in where she played an aspiring author who got into pickles though that's about all I recall.

Edited because there were a couple of dodgy spellings.

I used to be an avid follower of the female acting stars and I remember Glynis Johns in my film books (of which I still have about 10). I used to go through them with my father and ranked them for their beauty out of 10! Never the men though. I like beautiful women and now I appreciate good-looking men too.

I'm saddened because I've read that Dave Myers, one half of cooking duo, The Hairy Bikers has died      from cancer at 66 which doesn't seem that old by modern standards.