Here I am again. Middle English is giving me a hard time, I am afraid.

There's a quote from a late fourteenth century poem I can only understand in what I would call it's "first level" (not to say "literally", and assuming there may be a "second level" here.

This literal comprehension would render something like that: "men stitched a cuff to other men". Should I be tempted to see here a reference to a specific sexual position? I am in no position (of any kind) to know for sure wether this is so or not.


This is the problem-sentence: "In Vision of Piers Plowman (1370–90) William Langland writes of the period when, after heterosexual intercourse, ‘males drowen hem to males’".



All my searches in the Net have proven unsuccessful.



Thanks for your help,


CM

As I read it it's nothing to do with stitching/sewing (the ME 'hem' is just a plural of him, ie them), so the verse is simply a statement that while all animals are attracted male-to-female, in mankind alone sometimes males are attracted to males, and females to females.

The verses are as follows - though it depends on which edition/transcription one follows:

As whan þei hadde ryde in Rotey tyme anoon reste þei after;
Males drowen hem to males al mornyng by hemselue,
And femelles to femelles ferded and drowe.
Ther ne was cow ne cowkynde þat conceyued hadde
That wolde bere after bole, ne boor after sowe;
Boþ hors and houndes and alle oþere beestes
Medled noȝt wiþ hir makes saue man allone.
 ...

So I read that as roughly something like this (and bear in mind that the original construction is probably a bit forced as it had to rhyme):

As when they had ridden [mated?] in Rotey [correct/right?] time [manner?] before they rest thereafter,
[... OK I'll admit I'm flumoxed and completely guessing with this entire line, but the rest is much clearer ...]
Males are drawn [ie attracted] to males all morning by themselves
And females to females are ferded[?] and drawn together.
There never was a cow nor cattle conceived
That would not bear [ie go] after bull, no boar after sow;
Both horses and hounds and all other beasts
Meddled naught with their make [same kind - ie the same gender, although this distinction is only implied] save man alone.

Meles meles: thanks a lot for the explanation. I had found the poem in Middle English, but made no clear sense to me at all.

It was obvious that the "stitch" stuff was by no means accurate, but quite the opposite: my worryingly single guess…

Is there, by the way, a good Middle to Modern English dictionary online? This would surely reveal a most useful tool for that job.

With sincere gratitude,

CM

It's not that clear to me either ... and there may be some clever allusions that only 14th century readers understood, but it does just seem to be a statement that, while all animals show restraint in sexual matters, humans often don't (and bear in mind that the above verse is, I think, actually part of a dream, so it could all be allegorical and not strictly 'true').

I'm not an expert in Middle English by any means, nor even a linguist (hence the question-marked guesses in the above) ... but I have learned to understand it a bit through reading old cookery books (an interest of mine).

The only online ME dictionary I've found is the  Michigan University Middle English Dictionary

I've also found it useful, for all your enquiries, to do a google search to find the sentence or verse in the original poem etc. That way you can see the words in context (like in the above with the comparison to animals: boar to sow, cow to bull, etc.)

Hello again,

this is very informative. I hope the link you've just included in your last post will allow for a less blurred vision under deep ME waters. It's very kind of you. It's just that I feel scared at the idea of being constantly knocking at RH door, but I see no other way.

[A curious interest indeed; mine is connected with several months long overlanding 4x4 trips to remote, rare, gorgeous places… And that includes eating what's in someone else's cookery bible…]

Thanks again, with sincere friendliness,

CM

I wouldn't worry about asking here ... I find your challenges interesting and, as I say, not having studied English language or literature in any great depth, at least not since high school, your queries have got me reading things I wouldn't usually have done. And as you'll have noticed, your questions have prompted some further debate and discussion from others too.

So ask away ... at worst you might just not get any response if none of us have an answer or maybe just because nobody is around. But, blowing our own trumpet as it were, between us here there are people with all sorts of different knowledge, experiences, interests, languages and cultures ... like say, Temp, who is on holiday at the moment but who used to teach English literature and so has certainly studied Chaucer in more depth than I, and who I know has also read Ackroyd's book. She might well chip in here once she returns after Christmas..

PS

I meant to add, regarding Middle English, to remember that spelling was never standardized and so people at the time just wrote how it sounded to them: but there were strong geographic differences in accent and dialect throughout the country. Also then as now, homophones and double meanings were common, and could be readily used to create humour and sub-texts. So all in all reading Middle english is often guesswork, informed guesswork but still with a large degree of uncertainty.

That's good to know.

I am myself a doctor in philosophy, which, as you surely know, is the most inutile of knowledges nowadays… (even if I wouldn't barter it for anything, except perhaps history and, maybe, sociology —not sociometry, please).

Happy cooking…

I too am a doctor in philosophy (PhD) though mine was in materials' science. Certainly not useless - but when, at least in Britain, an engineer is popularly thought to be the man who comes to mend your washing machine, where industry and manufacturing are looked down on and the pay is peanuts, where almost nobody in the government have any qualifications in science or engineering, and after personally having been made redundant three times as companies closed or moved operations to other countries - I now run my own very small chambres d'hôtes business in the tranquility of the French Pyrenées, about 30km from the Spanish border and 60km from the Mediterranean. I used to be head of quality and laboratory manager (for UK operations of a big multi-national) with a staff of 20 scientists and technicians ... now there's just me, the dog and two cats. Hey ho.

Happy off-piste driving

That sounds nice!

I think you have taken the right decision. Having peace and being one's own boss —what's best!

Take care,

CM

What a deep going exchange these last three messages. I learned from it.

Sparked by the text:

"As when they had ridden [mated?] in Rotey [correct/right?] time [manner?] before they rest thereafter,
[... OK I'll admit I'm flumoxed and completely guessing with this entire line, but the rest is much clearer ...]
Males are drawn [ie attracted] to males all morning by themselves
And females to females are ferded[?] and drawn together.
There never was a cow nor cattle conceived
That would not bear [ie go] after bull, no boar after sow;
Both horses and hounds and all other beasts
Meddled naught with their make [same kind - ie the same gender, although this distinction is only implied] save man alone."

And not to divert the thread..otherwise we can discuss it in another thread...
As I have seen cows mounting on cows, even once seen a tomcat rubbing (frotting?) his "genetalia" against a branch of a bush seemingly with pleasure I dare to distrust the above text...
And see only two minutes research on the net:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html


Kind regards to both from Paul.

Homosexuality in medieval literature has been well mined - "queer theory" has had a field day with the topic, I believe, but it's not something I know anything about, I'm afraid. Would be interesting to read a bit more though - that's why I bought the Ackroyd book a while ago.

Have a look here, Monster - some hopefully useful links.

http://www.medievalists.net/2011/07/same-sex-relations-in-the-middle-ages/

Even a study of Medieval Arab lesbians - good grief - just what's needed to while away the time in this limbo period between Crimbo and the New Year Festivities.

Seriously - Chaucer, Langland and others possibly considered (even if they did not approve) that gay sex - between men that is , not sure about the girls - was actually the norm, certainly within Court and Church circles.

I don't have a doctorate, so MM - and you -  probably know more than me I!

Hi Temperance!

I've just filed your link in the "Favourites" stuff of my browser (and I've done the same with the general link of this page for future reference with the other links). This will prove deeply instructive. Thanks for your help.

CM

Hello, Monster,

I rather suspect the Christians (male) have been having a good laugh at us all for the last 2000 years. "Christianity" was possibly a gay club. I'm not joking - some serious research needed here.

Temperance, a quick before going to Wilhelm II...

"I don't have a doctorate, so MM - and you -  probably know more than me I!"

Of course it has to be "I"...probably know more than I (know).
Even we, in our local West-Flemish dialect, use it:
"en je kent er meer van of ik"

As for the two doctorates of the guys...for me: only six years "humaniora" and some chemical studies...I tried to explain to MM "met handen en voeten" (no translation found in the dictionary: with hands and feet?) what "humaniora" was, as indeed it don't exist in French or in Dutch, only in Belgium...(that's now something typical Belgian...apart from the frites and the steak as everybody knows...)

Kind regards from Paul.

Paul, it's suddenly come to me ... isn't "humaniora" what in English is usually known as "humanities"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanities

Temperance,

I thought that it would be an easy one to seek for the translation of "met handen en voeten uitleggen" or "zich met handen en voeten verstaanbaar maken"...
but forget it...it can be as our dictionaries and even on the net are Northern Dutch and that differs a bit from our Southern Dutch...so I had to seek a bit:
https://ennl.dict.cc/?s=zich+met+handen+en+voeten+tegen+iets+verzetten
here they translate with: "with all one's might and main"
But I am not pleased with that too...
in fact it is a picture of to explain with a kind of mime especially of the hands and even making examples with the feet to someone not understanding you or speaking not your language...to explain with the mimicking of the hands and the feet...

I feel with Comic Monster, as it is already that difficult to translate "sayings" of modern Dutch into modern English...

Kind regards to both from Paul.

Meles meles wrote:

Paul, it's suddenly come to me ... might not "humaniora" be what in English is usually known as "humanities"?

Meles meles,

of course you are right and you have such a memory...with esteem...

in Belgian Dutch: humaniora and in Belgian French: humanités (originated in the Middle Ages)

Kind regards from your friend Paul.

PS, but now as we get "anglicized", it are all English words as PhD and all that...btw the grandson goes perhaps to Stockholm for a post-doctorate in cancer research (Karlinski...does that "says" something to you?)

Surely most degree titles like LLB, PhD, BA, ChB etc are actually Latin not English? - the only two that are distinctively English that come to mind are MBA (awarded today to one of the "ten famous Belgians", Vincent Kompany) and BEd and even there the M might be Magister and the B Baccalaureus, though the Latin I studied would render that last as Caelebs. My own doctorate - DACFD - is Doctoris Adamus Cum Flabello Dulce.

Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:

Surely most degree titles like LLB, PhD, BA, ChB etc are actually Latin not English? - the only two that are distinctively English that come to mind are MBA (awarded today to one of the "ten famous Belgians", Vincent Kompany) and BEd and even there the M might be Magister and the B Baccalaureus, though the Latin I studied would render that last as Caelebs. My own doctorate - DACFD - is Doctoris Adamus Cum Flabello Dulce.

Sorry Gil...as many times in a haste and not looking in depth...
Yes now I see from your own doctorate...

Your friend Paul.

PaulRyckier wrote:

Meles meles wrote:

Paul, it's suddenly come to me ... might not "humaniora" be what in English is usually known as "humanities"?

Meles meles,

of course you are right and you have such a memory...with esteem...

in Belgian Dutch: humaniora and in Belgian French: humanités (originated in the Middle Ages)

Kind regards from your friend Paul.

PS, but now as we get "anglicized", it are all English words as PhD and all that...btw the grandson goes perhaps to Stockholm for a post-doctorate in cancer research (Karlinski...does that "says" something to you?)

Paul,

You also find humaniora in German and the Scandinavian languages.

When you mentioned 'Karlinsky' I suppose you mean Karolinska Institutet - https://www.karolinska.se/en

Thanks Nielsen for your message about "humaniora" in German and the Scandinavian languages...

And indeed it is the Karolinska Institutet
https://www.karolinska.se/en


Kind regards from your friend Paul.

To Paul R
You posted "Of course it has to be "I"...probably know more than I (know).
Even we, in our local West-Flemish dialect, use it:"
"en je kent er meer van of ik"

 I realised that I could understand that with no contact with either Holland or Belgium and wondered how.  Then it occurred to me that my uncle who was a Geordie with  a very pronounced accent had managed to speak to people - I assume Flamish - when he was in Bruxelles many years ago though he had never been there before.

 It seems that The Netherlands and Northumbria are still distantly related. 

After all we walked from there to here 9000yrs ago. 

May I come back? (Please!).

My other half was Walloon but also spoke fluent Flemish and English, and his intonation and phrasing when speaking English meant that quite often people thought he was from Northumberland: not a Geordie but closer to the border (which is where my Dad was from so I recognised the accent similarity too). Also there are quite a lot of similarities in vocabulary between West Flemish and regional English as spoken in northern England. For example the word for a small stream is a 'beck' in Yorkshire and it's a 'beek' in Flemish; and a spider is a 'cop' or 'attercop' in dialect Northumbrian(?) hence a cobweb, while it's a kop (or is it koppe?) or spinnekop, in Flemish, I think. But Paul R is de spreker van Vlaams.

Meles meles wrote:

My other half was Walloon but also spoke fluent Flemish and English, and his intonation and phrasing when speaking English meant that quite often people thought he was from Northumberland: not a Geordie but closer to the border (which is where my Dad was from so I recognised the accent similarity too). Also there are quite a lot of similarities in vocabulary between West Flemish and regional English as spoken in northern England. For example the word for a small stream is a 'beck' in Yorkshire and it's a 'beek' in Flemish; and a spider is a 'cop' or 'attercop' in dialect Northumbrian(?) hence a cobweb, while it's a kop (or is it koppe?) or spinnekop, in Flemish, I think. But Paul R is de spreker van Vlaams.

Re the small stream - 'beck' and 'beek' - the Danish 'bæk' [pronounced like the North-Eastern English word] do suggest a common root.
Re the spider - in Danish an 'edderkop' [with the double 'd' almost like 'th' in 'the'], I have seen it suggested that the 'edder' means poison or poisonous, and the 'kop' comes from German 'kopf' or head.

In Northumbria, and probably even more so in Yorkshire, there is an added complication when tracing dialectic words' usage in that both areas were subject to slightly different degrees to a large influx of Danish and Norwegian speakers as the first millennium drew to a close. The absolute root of many of these words will almost certainly be found in a proto-Germanic tongue, but the extent to which some evolved in constant use from early English into modern vernacular or to which some were reinforced or introduced by later Scandinavian settlers is very hard to ascertain.

The Old English / Frisian dialect link is now generally accepted by most linguists as proof positive that the area played a very important role in the initial movement of large numbers of people who would make up the "Saxon invasion". However Frisian itself is a very difficult dialect to pin down - the broad distinctions drawn between East Frisian, West Frisian and North Frisian (plus another dialect peculiar to some coastal settlements) are made because even within this general group there is a quite a lot of mutual unintelligibility, and in fact the link with Old English works best only with West Frisian (the dialect also closest in the area to Flemish). Rolf Bremmer, probably the foremost authority these days on Friesland's languages and who also specialises in Old and Middle English studies, has postulated that West Frisian actually had a separate history than its sister dialects and arose as a sort of "lingua franca" during a period of massive migrations of Germanic people (coinciding with the Saxon "overspill" into Britain). He has also suggested that the same "merchants tongue" had a huge influence on Nørren and Danish at the same time which, if he is right, adds yet another "circle within a circle" when it comes to looking at Yorkshire, Northumbria and Scots-English dialects. What is certain however is that for many centuries - even before Scandinavians started complicating matters - there seems to have been a massive amount of mutual intelligibility between people living all around the North Sea, including with southern Scandinavians. Bremmer has even wondered if this may even have played a part in the area's well documented resistance to Christianity over the same period in history. Latin as a lingua franca was a huge practical "plus" for those societies who adopted Christianity for its function as a facilitator of trade and commerce possibilities as well as diplomacy. However if you already had a perfectly adequate lingua franca going for you then the appeal had less of a lustre, and the evidence of how successful this compromise tongue was in doing its job is actually to be found in the many common words that are still sprinkled throughout the languages of people now living in the areas where it once held sway, and of which West Frisian is probably the best preserved living remnant.

brenogler wrote:

To Paul R
You posted "Of course it has to be "I"...probably know more than I (know).
Even we, in our local West-Flemish dialect, use it:"
"en je kent er meer van of ik"

 I realised that I could understand that with no contact with either Holland or Belgium and wondered how.  Then it occurred to me that my uncle who was a Geordie with  a very pronounced accent had managed to speak to people - I assume Flamish - when he was in Bruxelles many years ago though he had never been there before.

 It seems that The Netherlands and Northumbria are still distantly related. 

After all we walked from there to here 9000yrs ago. 

May I come back? (Please!).

 
Brenogler,

yes Flemish and especially the West-Flemish dialect is close to English. As I am perfect bilingual (to be correct "bidialectical" as a dialect is not recognized as a language) in East and West-Flemish (the two dialects of the former county of Flanders. The other Flemish dialects are not Flemish ) I am many times surprized how close Flemish (especially West-Flemish) to English is.
If you don't look to the French words (which are also very usual in West-Flemish and English  ),  most words have even the same pronunciation and most times the same sense.

Perhaps it is quite normal, while on both sides of the channel it were nearly the same dialects and with a busy traffic the language exchanges were even greater. The germanic dialect that later would become West-Flemish was spoken up to Boulogne from the third century along the "Litus Saxonicum"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore

And to learn more about the Flemish dialects as part of the Dutch language you can read from this book what interests you.
Dutch. A linguistic history of Holland and Belgium Bruce Donaldson
https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/dona001dutc02_01/dona001dutc02_01.pdf
Read on page 7 about Flemish:
'Flemish, the English translation of the Dutch word Vlaams, is a word that has often been used incorrectly in English and has thus been the cause of many misconceptions. If I begin with the various connotations of the word Vlaams, how these misconceptions arose in English will become self evident. Vlaams can have four meanings, depending on the context and who is using the word: 1 First and foremost it designates the Dutch dialects of the two Belgian provinces West and East Flanders, although dialectologists would see only Westvlaams as pure Flemish and Oostvlaams as a mixture of Flemish and Brabants (see p. 17). The dialect of the north-west of France, the area known as Frans-Vlaanderen, is also called Flemish. This definition of the meaning of Flemish/Vlaams is one which would be known only to scholars of Dutch on the whole. 2 In the everyday speech of Dutchmen Vlaams is Dutch as spoken in Belgium (see p. 33). 3 In the speech of Belgians the word Vlaams designates Dutch as spoken by them, regardless of which Dutch-speaking province they hail from. 4 Finally, there are many people who live under the misconception that Flemish is a separate, if related language to Dutch. The idea is extremely wide-spread in English-speaking countries and many a linguistic publication will classify Flemish as a separate language in the family of Germanic tongues. Because of Belgium's separate history since the late sixteenth century, it is not surprising that this misconception arose and became so wide-spread. I am sure that many a Frenchman too does not realise that the patois of the hinterland of Dunkirk which he labels as flamand is in fact but a dialect of the fully accepted ‘cultural language’ he calls hollandais or néerlandais. The historical background of this problem will be looked at in greater detail later in the book (see p. 20). Suffice it to say at this stage that there is no such thing as written Flemish; it is but one of several Dutch dialects and exists only in speech - a literate Fleming writes Dutch."

PS: brenogler, perhaps your uncle was a linguist, but I, being in Newcastle in a tailor's shop and hearing the shopkeeper speaking to a local in Geordie, didn't understand one word, even as a West-Fleming. Afterwards, while I asked, the shopkeeper explained it all to me in Queen's English. And he knew a lot about it, while it occasionally seemed to be a PHD in history. He explained to me that in Britain it was hardly to find a function in schools, while history lessons became decreased in education to the advantage of applied sciences and there were nearly no functions available anymore in the branch...

Kind regards, Paul.

Meles meles wrote:

My other half was Walloon but also spoke fluent Flemish and English, and his intonation and phrasing when speaking English meant that quite often people thought he was from Northumberland: not a Geordie but closer to the border (which is where my Dad was from so I recognised the accent similarity too). Also there are quite a lot of similarities in vocabulary between West Flemish and regional English as spoken in northern England. For example the word for a small stream is a 'beck' in Yorkshire and it's a 'beek' in Flemish; and a spider is a 'cop' or 'attercop' in dialect Northumbrian(?) hence a cobweb, while it's a kop (or is it koppe?) or spinnekop, in Flemish, I think. But Paul R is de spreker van Vlaams.

MM, "kobbe" or "spinnekop" as you say. And "spinneweb"...
MM, an impertinent question...and you haven't to answer if it is too private...but we have here many, especially in Brussels, who have roots in Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia...sometimes a Flemish mother and a Walloon father or vice versa...even have had a prime minister with a father from France and a mother from West-Flanders. I have now as a landlord some people from Vilvoorde in the north of Brussels. They speak Brabantic, Dutch and of course French from Brussels. And one lady has done her studies in Dutch, but came from a French speaking family (and later to a French school in Brussels)

Kind regards, Paul.

Paul.
  I don't think my uncle Steve could be described as a linguist.  He was a driller in the Tyne shipyards and later a docker and I got the impression that few people south of Sunderland could understand him.

 I am familiar with the Northumbrian dialect which came in handy when I lived in Shetland.  For two weeks I had to shepherd a Glaswegian around till he got the hang of their dialect which is very similar to Northumbrian.

 Steve enjoyed his stay in Bruxelles but was a little worried when a lady he was talking to in the pub followed him into the loo to continue their conversation while was having a pee.

brenogler wrote:

Paul.
  I don't think my uncle Steve could be described as a linguist.  He was a driller in the Tyne shipyards and later a docker and I got the impression that few people south of Sunderland could understand him.

 I am familiar with the Northumbrian dialect which came in handy when I lived in Shetland.  For two weeks I had to shepherd a Glaswegian around till he got the hang of their dialect which is very similar to Northumbrian.

 Steve enjoyed his stay in Bruxelles but was a little worried when a lady he was talking to in the pub followed him into the loo to continue their conversation while was having a pee.

brenogler,

yes a docker, I understand...but many times people only knowing their dialect do it many times better than those used to the "standard" language at least in my experience...
The partner and I, staying at a B&B or perhaps "Gasthof" in Bavaria. The partner not so used to the standard Dutch, more West-Flemish dialect and not knowing a iota of German and I used to the standard "Hochdeutsch" and only knowing that. The partner understood better the Bavarian guy with his dialect than I, while I was continuously focused I think to the standard words and so, I presume, didn't recognize the different pronunciation of the German words?

And on the boats, Ostend-Dover, in the "cantine", a bloke, I agree, with a longer service than I, was fluent in English, French and German, although he didn't spoke Dutch, only West Flemish Ostend dialect...

Yes those Brussels ladies...you have them overall...but perhaps not what you think and only to continue a babble  ? ... but perhaps in Britain  ?...the other way around, a lady and a man following...would even in that time in Brussels...

Kind regards, Paul.

PaulRyckier wrote:

MM, an impertinent question...and you haven't to answer if it is too private...but we have here many, especially in Brussels, who have roots in Flanders, Brussels and Wallonia...sometimes a Flemish mother and a Walloon father or vice versa...even have had a prime minister with a father from France and a mother from West-Flanders. I have now as a landlord some people from Vilvoorde in the north of Brussels. They speak Brabantic, Dutch and of course French from Brussels. And one lady has done her studies in Dutch, but came from a French speaking family (and later to a French school in Brussels).

Okay ...

Well Paul, as you know, I have Walloon relations (by marriage), as well as both Flemish and Walloon friends, and Dutch and northern French friends too. Mon Dieu/mijn God, I even count my Dutch friend Gabby/Gabbje from Limburg as a friend, despite her appalling accent when she tries to speak 'proper' Flemish,    whilst her English and French are almost perfect. 

So what actually is your 'impertinent' question?

MM, my impertinent question...
You said:
"My other half was Walloon but also spoke fluent Flemish and English"

When you said that your partner was Walloon and spoke fluently Flemish (I suppose dialect) I was asking myself if your partner wasn't also from Flemish descent, or had a Flemish mother or father or went to a Dutch language school, where they even up to this days (although the Flemish is now a bit "Dutchificated") speak the Flemish dialects.

I say it, because up to now I have never met a Walloon, who could speak a perfect Flemish dialect, or it had to be a Walloon, who had an intense and long contact with the Flemish dialect, via a parent, a school, a factory environment.
That said I don't know a Fleming, who can speak a Walloon dialect, without the same conditions as mentioned before.

And the last decades the Walloon dialects are nearly dead, as only the  elderly still speak them.
So the Fleming has it much easier, while he/she has only to learn to speak the standard French.
Not to say that a real Frenchman, as my colleague from Dijon, mentioned to me: if the Belgian French speaking one says only one word, we already recognize the French speaking Belgian (be it Walloon or "Brusseleer")

Kind regards from Paul.

"It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him,"as G B Shaw wrote. Sounds like Walloon / Flemish can be similar (but at least Walloons have a more sensible number system than the French.

Green George wrote:

"It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him,"as G B Shaw wrote. Sounds like Walloon / Flemish can be similar (but at least Walloons have a more sensible number system than the French.

 
No, Gil, certainly not Walloons against Flemings and not Flemings against Walloons...they are rather friendly to each other...
It is at least with the Flemings, I don't know that well the Walloons, rather like those Englishmen that you mention.
The Flemings (those from East and West-Flanders. The real Flemings  especially those of the West) against those from Brabant. Those from Northern Brabant Antwerp, that ones, who think they have "de wijsheid in pacht" (the wisdom for hire) (the monopoly of wisdom) and those of Southern Brabant Brussels (Flemish and French speaking mixed) are "dikke nekken" (thick necks), who think that they are elevated above the rest of the country. And finally those from Limburg with their special dialect a mixture of Dutch, Flemish and German, not only special with their dialect but also special as "volk" (folks? "Volk" in the German sense).

Kind regards, Paul.

PaulRyckier wrote:

MM, my impertinent question...
You said:
"My other half was Walloon but also spoke fluent Flemish and English".
When you said that your partner was Walloon and spoke fluently Flemish (I suppose dialect) I was asking myself if your partner wasn't also from Flemish descent, or had a Flemish mother or father or went to a Dutch language school, where they even up to this days (although the Flemish is now a bit "Dutchificated") speak the Flemish dialects.]

I see, yes his parents spoke French, and only French (but good French: his father was an architect for a big international firm in Brussels). When his parents divorced his mother remarried a doctor (médecin/GP) so again the language at home was exclusively good French, certainly not a Walloon patois. He attended primary school in a French-speaking part of Belgium (south of Charleroi) but then went to secondary school in a Flemish-speaking area (near Dendermonde, I think) and so had to learn the local Flemish. He was then living with his father so spoke French at home and with family, but Flemish at school, and at school he then studied English and German.

He passed his bacc' at seventeen and so spent a year at an ordinary secondary school in the USA (Louisiana), to improve his English (although unfortunately he developed a strong southern US twang which he then had to unlearn). He did his Belgian national service at a military hospital (and with NATO a lot of the language used was English) and there he became friends with a Flemish speaking nurse (from Geraardsbergen) and mixed with her friends and family (all Flemish speakers, but of course like most Flemmings, they also spoke French and English too, unlike most Walloons who only speak French). So while French was his langue maternelle, he learned his Flemish from native speakers at school and later through work and friends. His Flemish wasn't learnt as 'proper' Dutch at school it was just the language that the other pupils and teachers spoke in class. When he worked for Eurostar several of his colleagues were from the Netherlands and they commented that his accent and expressions were Flemish rather than Dutch. I still keep in contact with several of his friends, Flemish, Dutch and Walloon, and when we are all together we tend to speak French as it's the only common language between us - we could all speak English, if it were not for the Walloon husband of one of them, who again can only speak French.  

Et voila!

I thought Walon was actually a separate language albeit it has almost dropped out of use now; a romance language like French but a language in its own right nonetheless. There are some classes in Belgian where interested parties can study Walon I had read.  I had downloaded (and copied on to a word document) something on the subject before my old laptop was stolen but my printer threw one of its intermittent wobblies before I could print anything off and when I went back to look the Belgian paper's website had instituted a pay wall if anyone wanted to access their back articles.  I had intended to use the information for something to share at one of the sessions of the Tuesday afternoon U3A French conversation group I attend.

PaulRyckier wrote:

Green George wrote:

"It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him,"as G B Shaw wrote. Sounds like Walloon / Flemish can be similar (but at least Walloons have a more sensible number system than the French.

 
No, Gil, certainly not Walloons against Flemings and not Flemings against Walloons...they are rather friendly to each other...
It is at least with the Flemings, I don't know that well the Walloons, rather like those Englishmen that you mention.
The Flemings (those from East and West-Flanders. The real Flemings  especially those of the West) against those from Brabant. Those from Northern Brabant Antwerp, that ones, who think they have "de wijsheid in pacht" (the wisdom for hire) (the monopoly of wisdom) and those of Southern Brabant Brussels (Flemish and French speaking mixed) are "dikke nekken" (thick necks), who think that they are elevated above the rest of the country. And finally those from Limburg with their special dialect a mixture of Dutch, Flemish and German, not only special with their dialect but also special as "volk" (folks? "Volk" in the German sense).

Kind regards, Paul.

Gil, to be honest about the Flemings, I am not sure if it is still true what I said about those from Flanders, Brabant and Limburg.

I spoke more about the status of some 40 years ago, but in the meantime there is a lot changed. Someone of the close inner circle now living for five years in Antwerp (Brabant (but the Antwerpnèrs will saythat they are exclusively "Antwerpnèrs"), and among younsters as he, the situation is more neutral and more relaxed...all speaking a kind of mixed dialect/Dutch nowadays...

Kind regards, Paul.

MM, thank you so much for giving the "details!" of your family and inner circle.

And yes it confirms all what I thought.

Kind regards, Paul.

LadyinRetirement wrote:

I thought Walon was actually a separate language albeit it has almost dropped out of use now; a romance language like French but a language in its own right nonetheless. There are some classes in Belgian where interested parties can study Walon I had read.  I had downloaded (and copied on to a word document) something on the subject before my old laptop was stolen but my printer threw one of its intermittent wobblies before I could print anything off and when I went back to look the Belgian paper's website had instituted a pay wall if anyone wanted to access their back articles.  I had intended to use the information for something to share at one of the sessions of the Tuesday afternoon U3A French conversation group I attend.

 
LiR,
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_language





 
About Picard:

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Picard

Kind regards from Paul.