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 The Elephant in the Room.

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 06:57

Corsets are very interesting, LiR. I bet if you started a thread: Corsets - the Benefits it would take off. Biscuits did - another unlikely subject. But if you did start a Corsets thread you can bet your life that some crackpot or other around here would intrude and spoil it by suggesting that religion is simply Playtex for the unruly soul. Unruly is a nice word: "disposed to resist lawful restraint" c. 1400, from un- (1) "not" + obsolete ruly (adj.) "amenable to rule" . Unruly flesh and unruly minds both need firm, 18-hour control. Discuss.


Hope you sort your bad tum out: all tablets have side effects don't they? Best avoided if possible. I'm allergic to anti-allergy remedies.

PS All this elephant talk made me realise I had no idea where the expression "the elephant in the room" originated. Here is an explanation I found:

“In 1814, Ivan Andreevich Krylov (1769-1844), poet and fabulist, wrote a fable entitled "The Inquisitive Man" which tells of a man who goes to a museum and notices all sorts of tiny things, but fails to notice an elephant. The phrase became proverbial. Fyodor Dostoevsky in his novel 'Demons' wrote, 'Belinsky was just like Krylov's Inquisitive Man, who didn't notice the elephant in the museum.”
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 07:40

@Temperance wrote:
... you can bet your life that some crackpot or other around here would intrude and spoil it by suggesting that religion is simply Playtex for the unruly soul.

That would hardly spoil anything - glib and ill thought-out analogies can still prompt interesting retorts. Aristotle, the daft old bugger, forgave them within rhetoric as long as they appealed to pathos - especially when he made them himself. It's only when a similar appeal to logos or ethos is made using the same bad arguments, he reckoned, that they become anathema to valid discussion. What is guaranteed to invalidate a discussion generally however, as even Aristotle would have agreed, is when one of the interlocutors suddenly declares themselves so offended by the analogy that they then level accusations of bullying against the unfortunate analogers and dare everyone else to proceed with the discussion in the certainty that from then on they will be assuredly causing further offence to the self-declared victim when they do. It is the rhetorical equivalent of stopping the football game by marching home with the match ball after losing a fair tackle and threatening never to come out of the house again, with or without the ball - and blaming all the bemused kids out on the street for having brought things to such a state. That tends to put the skids on things, I find.

Interesting about the elephant's origin, though - I didn't know it had such a distinguished literary pedigree. Thanks for that one - it's been slotted away in the appropriate mental compartment for further use.

PS: Souls cannot be unruly - something so ill-defined that it in all practicality it does not actually exist can hardly then have a defining characteristic. Religion therefore, if assuming a Playtex role, would be similar to a lady who paints a corset on her torso and then expects to benefit from the experience. In the absence of any discernible benefit from this invisible and worthless assistance (as one would expect from such an exercise) she then declares that her soul - itself sharing the same characteristics of invisibility and a worth that is impossible to define - at least has been assuaged. See? Another elephant. The room is littered with the buggers.

(Obligatory Smile )
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 08:18

@nordmann wrote:
..glib and ill thought-out analogies...

I thought it was rather good for 7.00am.  Oh well...

I hope you are not accusing me of being the sulky victim of a fair tackle sir! Oh dear, the idea of Res His posters marching off with the ball did make me laugh - not sure if I was meant to or not. We've all marched off with the ball in our time - part of growing up. The trick surely is returning and laughing at the absurdity of it all - including oneself.

Lord - elephants, football, corsets - not to mention Aristotle's take on it all. This thread is losing itself. Was it Aristotle or Socrates who was offside in the Philosophers' Match? The goal was still allowed and the Germans certainly sulked for a week after they lost that one. Nietzsche never did come out again; neither did Heidegger. Not sure who kept the ball, probably Nietzsche. 




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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 08:26

Was it not perhaps Schroginger's ball that he said he'd put it in a box, but everytime someone went to the box to fetch it, it didn't seem to be there ... just a disgruntled cat. (disgruntled ... another good word).
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 08:28

@Temperance wrote:
We've all marched off with the ball in our time - part of growing up. The trick surely is returning and laughing at the absurdity of it all - including oneself.


Actually, no, we all haven't. Had someone tried that around where I came from, and then reappeared later inviting us to laugh at the absurdity of it all, they'd have been sent home to their mother in instalments. Part of growing up, we'd have said. Aristotle came from a similar housing estate, I always reckoned.

PS: Schrodinger's tactics don't work anymore - not since the introduction of VAR.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 08:45

Well,  I don't know what I'm talking about obviously: I've never played football. We nice gals only played lacrosse (vicious business - not for little victims, I can tell you). But I've always got by by laughing, even with kids from extremely rough estates: I'm beginning to wonder how I've ever survived. Perhaps I haven't, and I'm just imagining I did.


Nothing worse than a disgruntled cat. It is a lovely and very interesting word indeed:



Q. I have, for some time, been fascinated by the word disgruntled. How may you be disgruntled if you are not already gruntled? I do not know what gruntled is and I have not been able to find that word in the dictionaries that I have examined. Any thoughts about gruntled and disgruntled?

A. Years ago I wrote a piece about such unpaired opposites, whose first example was this word. It quoted P G Wodehouse’s The Code of the Woosters, published in 1938: “He spoke with a certain what-is-it in his voice, and I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” So, if you were the opposite of disgruntled you would be pleased, satisfied, and contented.

Wodehouse invented this sense and has been quoted or flatteringly imitated many times since (as in Men at Arms by Terry Pratchett: “‘No, that man,’ said Angua, ‘[with a] face like someone very disgruntled.’ ‘Oh, that was Captain Vimes. But he’s never been gruntled, I think.’”)

The assumption behind it is that putting dis- on the front of a word makes it negative in meaning in some way, as in disappear, discontent, disconnect, dishonest, and dozens of others. That’s still an active way of making new words — it has been used in recent decades to create disinformation, disambiguate and many others. Sometimes, however — very rarely and only in old words — dis- is what the grammarians call an intensifier: it makes an existing sense stronger. For example, the unusual word disannul was used in the sense “to make null and void, bring to nothing, abolish” and dissever means “to divide, separate, disjoin”. A third example is disgruntle, which at root suggests somebody is more than merely gruntled. But gruntled here doesn’t have its Wodehousian sense, quite the reverse.

Now a second grammatical term, frequentative (or frequentive if you prefer). This is a trick of word formation, now obsolete, in which an ending created a verb to suggest that some action is often repeated. The one used for this most often is -le. So curdle is the frequentative of curd, gamble that of game and sparkle of spark. The verb gruntle is the frequentative of grunt.

The first sense of gruntle was of a repeated grunt, especially the noise that pigs make in company. An example is in The Life and Death of Mr Badman, by John Bunyan, of 1680: “After this his speech went quite away, and he could speak no more than a Swine or a Bear. Therefore, like one of them, he would gruntle and make an ugly noise, according as he was offended, or pleased, or would have any thing done.” It is rarely used of humans, but an example occurs in a 1922 book, The Covered Wagon, by Emerson Hough, “They dismounted. The two Indians, short, deep-chested, bow-legged men, went to the packs. They gruntled as they unloaded the two larger mules.” Gruntle appeared in the fifteenth century; by the end of the next century it had begun to be used to mean grumbling or complaining. I imagine it as old-retainer mumble, the noise that someone fed up with their condition will make under their breath all the time.

If we put the intensifier and the frequentative together in one word, disgruntled has its current meaning, which the Oxford English Dictionary describes as a state of “moody discontent, sulky dissatisfaction or ill-humour”.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 10:47

A Res Hist ball just smashed my viewing window - could be a small elephant dropping. This I take as an invite to join in the fray. Could be otherwise but what the heck!
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 15:00

Oh I think it is okay for you to join in if you so wish, Priscilla.

Temperance, I actually mentioned corsets on a different thread (the fakery one) and to be honest I have forgotten what the original elephant in the room on this particular thread was.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 15:27

So have I and it's my thread.



LiR wrote:
 


Oh I think it is okay for you to join in if you so wish, Priscilla.

Blimey - she will be relieved, LiR.

Priscilla is really good at football: you are all going to regret this. Are all red cards now cancelled then, and are we starting again? Hopefully the return friendly - Bash Street Boys' Academy v. the girls of Our Lady of the Lily Pond Convent - will eventually take place fairly soon. Has anyone seen the ball? Who last went off with it? It wasn't MM, was it? Surely not.





Temperance (one with the ball): "I'll give him 'sent home to mother in instalments'."



Seriously, it would be nice if we could all have a laugh again...


Last edited by Temperance on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 16:05; edited 1 time in total
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 15:56

Re Priscilla and Temps lasts posts, re sports then I think the ones mentioned by you use different / difficult balls, and as I know next to nothing on sports I don't have any balls to spare.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 16:23

Per, UK could spare one called Ed. After being in a Westminster Cabinet he tried to become a Strict Ballroom dancer; ball confusion if ever. Last weekend he played the ukulele in the TV Birthday party for the Queen -  whatever he does you can be sure  Balls up for it,  .
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 24 Apr 2018, 16:33

The way you put it, Priscilla, it's beginning to seem like he could have been playing a part in Fred Karno's Army 
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 25 Apr 2018, 08:31

The original elephant was the Scottish referendum.

I do miss ferval - wonder where she is? Hope she is OK.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 25 Apr 2018, 10:21

Blimey, that long ago ... I'd thought it was a brexit elephant, aka a unicorn.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 01 May 2018, 23:07

Again an elephant in the room:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43960448

And hasn't the Commons not the last word in all it? Vizzer?

Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 02 May 2018, 14:19

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I came across this link of people on the board of a company that has been awarded rights to drill oil in the Golan Heights which I think is still claimed by Syria.  The website on which it is mentioned is quite right-wing I think but if what is mentioned in the linked article is true it does provide food for thought.  [url=stateofthenation2012.com/?p=95946]stateofthenation2012.com/?p=95946[/url]

Edit:  the link didn't comer out awfully well but the picture linked said that Dick Cheyney and someone from a wealthy family were among those on the board of the said company.

As this is an edit I have seen Trike's posts below about the power pose - very funny.


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Wed 02 May 2018, 19:30; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 02 May 2018, 15:39

Conservative politicians and the "power stance"






no doubt borrowed from:

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 02 May 2018, 16:04

A backbencher has described Theresa May as the "Brexit Queen"

It doesn't take Twitter long:


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 02 May 2018, 19:54

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Sorry if this has been mentioned before but I came across this link of people on the board of a company that has been awarded rights to drill oil in the Golan Heights which I think is still claimed by Syria.  The website on which it is mentioned is quite right-wing I think but if what is mentioned in the linked article is true it does provide food for thought.  [url=stateofthenation2012.com/?p=95946]stateofthenation2012.com/?p=95946[/url]

Edit:  the link didn't comer out awfully well but the picture linked said that Dick Cheyney and a member of the Rothschild family were among those on the board of the said company.

As this is an edit I have seen Trike's posts below about the power pose - very funny.

Lady,

thanks for the link.
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=95946
Saw just this morning a French film in two tomes:
Une terre deux fois promise: Israel-Palestine. (A land two times promised)
https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/073890-001-A/une-terre-deux-fois-promise-israel-palestine-1-2/
Eventually MM can still watch the two tomes I guess for one week.
Did that much research in the time for the BBC that I learned not that much more, but nevertheless it is a refreshing summary again...first the Balfour declaration, the Sykes-Picot line and then the English had to halt the immigration when it became too much...yes the English had to know that the Middle-East was a wasp's nest. Learned nevertheless that the independence vote in the UN in 1948 was a nearly miss and only due to the tricks of the US the vote survived. And also thanks to the SSSR (dominated by the Russians), which saw already the declining of the English and acted already to take their place there against the Americans.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sun 06 May 2018, 15:05

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Vizzer,

I looked now through the whole thread and didn't find our discussion about referenda and the constitution. I have put a link about the Australian constitution and you replied to it. Can't you remember where that was?

Paul - it was on this thread on the Individuals board.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sun 06 May 2018, 21:39

Vizzer,

thank you so much for the link...how do you do that...I have to go to the statistics of you or me and then look to all the messages till I find the searched one...

I hope that you will have with your busy household some more time for the board...the same overhere...to hot in the garden for the lady...some 27 centigrade and no wind...perhaps MM is used to that in his neck of the woods there near the Spanish border...but we are not accustomed to it overhere...thus going outside the rest of the afternoon in a tearoom/restaurant on the "terrasse" near the coast where there is more wind. Back at home preparing dinner and watering the garden...

Kind regards from an estimating Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 10 May 2018, 23:10

We mentioned already overhere fake-news and what news can we trust...
But now how politically influenced is the news...
Even my preferred BBC...
Saw yesterday an in depth article on BBC world about a reaction on the Trump declaration on Iran...
The European trio France, Germany and! the UK by the word of Johnson react completely otherwise than the US...not subscribing to Mister Trump...and even Australia (and New Zealand?)...
But suddenly after some two hours that analysis was gone and no comments on Trump anymore...was there a change of politics in the government and did they announce that to the BBC, which had to act in accordance with the government change...? or all conspiracy thoughts from me...Vizzer?

My take: The tandem US-Saudi Arabia has lost in Syria against the trio Russia, Assad, Iran. And the Republican US has lost face for the world...and now they want to start the game all over again...and of course the US continuous ally, Israel, is also "partie prenante" (they translate as "stakeholder", although it is as in Dutch:" betrokken partij" concerned party I guess)...or is the UK government suddenly afraid of the economic consequenses...or are they realizing that they are closer to the US than continental Europe...the special relationship...Triceratops? Or are the Europeans not realizing that they "sit" still under the US atom "parapluie" (umbrella)

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 11 May 2018, 10:15

There are now more elephants in this room than people.

News has always been prejudiced - sometimes overtly and specifically, though more often simply due to the cultural and social context of its delivery. And disinformation, as well as misinformation, have also both figured hugely in the process from the first moment in history that one individual human attempted to inform second parties of third party events. However only the most stupid individual at any point in human history would not at least acknowledge this obvious caveat to accepting the veracity of any reported "news" on face value.

The problem with the buzzword "fake" (coined somewhat less than ironically by deliberate practitioners of disinformation) is that it implies the individual recipient of news reports should either entirely accept them on face value or entirely dismiss them as artificial. The real victim in such an attitude is news itself, and by extension the rather basic principle of a need to be educated in the matter of third party events, at least for any individual naive enough to accept this binary position as in any way intelligent a stance to adopt.

If the individual, however intelligent they may or may not be, places a value on being aware of what is going on in their society - domestic or global - then they have a duty to themselves to go beyond simplistic dismissal of all data deemed by a second party to be "fake", and instead to accept that they have a personal requirement to apply an intellectual filter to incoming data, one in which assessment of the source is only one facet. How far they go in applying such a filter, or even understanding its function, is as subjectively varied in its application and definition as there are individuals on the planet. But then even this subjective application of intelligently assessing intelligence is not a handicap but is itself an essential aspect of the process of disseminating information, as long of course as everyone understands their role in that process - in however a limited a fashion - in which they are not only recipients but also disseminators of information themselves. After all, this is essentially what "news" has always been - not a one-source, one-directional transfer of isolated data, but part of a global conversation conducted through many intermediaries, one of which is the individual recipient themselves. Misinformation, the "Chinese-whispers" effect, within that process is a given. As is disinformation in the form of hijacked sources and transmission methods reducing data to propaganda. But as long as the conversation continues globally these impediments to news transmission are naturally overcome - distance and time have always guaranteed this.

The brutal and cynical attempt to exploit a perception of "small world" global communications (in which distance and time seem - erroneously - to have become an irrelevance), first by persuading people to dismiss all imperfect channels of transmission as "fake", and then to promote channels under their auspices and control as the only valid ones, is a very dangerous development if enough people forget their responsibilities to themselves and allow such people to decide these matters for them. However I believe this trend is based on a misinterpretation of how global communication actually works, even in this digital age (distance and time may have shrunk, but the considerable natural filter of cross-cultural and inter-social forces still apply - as is evidenced by the considerable "distance" between how would-be declarers of what is "fake" like Trump believe they are controlling our perception of them and how "we" actually are). It is also an extreme lack of appreciation through basic ignorance of how historically every revolution in transmission standards that has broadened the scope for effective transmission has been accompanied by such clumsy and malevolent attempts to control them. They have always failed, and will do as long as human nature predominantly requires the individual to at least believe they have fulfilled a discretionary filtering process in relation to what they are expected to believe as true. Once a particular society's members are, through persuasion or force, deprived of this option in sufficient numbers then the naturally destructive effect of attempting to dam the tide of information to an innately curious animal such as the human variety is an unavoidable consequence, one which sweeps the attempted controller of the media away as well as the artificial constraints they attempted to place on human nature regarding the individual's requirement to be socially aware based on dependable data.

Historically these things always work themselves out - often unfortunately not until a lot of damage has been done to many communities and over sustained periods of time - but to believe that this time round it's somehow "different" is to misunderstand both human nature and history.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 11 May 2018, 22:40

nordmann,

I thank you for another splendid essay. I learned a lot from it and agree to it all. I wanted to comment it, but tomorrow my Norton protection is at its last day and with this four holidays now I can only give the computer in to my maintenance to set a new protection on it on Monday. I excuse me for an absence of some days.
I hope that our blog, in fact your blog, stays alife and kicking and has a long life, especially for the quality of the messages and a reasoning without consession.

Kind regards and with great esteem, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 12 May 2018, 16:33

I think that at present:

  Believe NOTHING you hear , believe Half you read but......believe ALL you see.


Dirk
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 12 May 2018, 16:34

@nordmann wrote:
There are now more elephants in this room than people.

News has always been prejudiced - sometimes overtly and specifically, though more often simply due to the cultural and social context of its delivery. And disinformation, as well as misinformation, have also both figured hugely in the process from the first moment in history that one individual human attempted to inform second parties of third party events. However only the most stupid individual at any point in human history would not at least acknowledge this obvious caveat to accepting the veracity of any reported "news" on face value.

The problem with the buzzword "fake" (coined somewhat less than ironically by deliberate practitioners of disinformation) is that it implies the individual recipient of news reports should either entirely accept them on face value or entirely dismiss them as artificial. The real victim in such an attitude is news itself, and by extension the rather basic principle of a need to be educated in the matter of third party events, at least for any individual naive enough to accept this binary position as in any way intelligent a stance to adopt.

If the individual, however intelligent they may or may not be, places a value on being aware of what is going on in their society - domestic or global - then they have a duty to themselves to go beyond simplistic dismissal of all data deemed by a second party to be "fake", and instead to accept that they have a personal requirement to apply an intellectual filter to incoming data, one in which assessment of the source is only one facet. How far they go in applying such a filter, or even understanding its function, is as subjectively varied in its application and definition as there are individuals on the planet. But then even this subjective application of intelligently assessing intelligence is not a handicap but is itself an essential aspect of the process of disseminating information, as long of course as everyone understands their role in that process - in however a limited a fashion - in which they are not only recipients but also disseminators of information themselves. After all, this is essentially what "news" has always been - not a one-source, one-directional transfer of isolated data, but part of a global conversation conducted through many intermediaries, one of which is the individual recipient themselves. Misinformation, the "Chinese-whispers" effect, within that process is a given. As is disinformation in the form of hijacked sources and transmission methods reducing data to propaganda. But as long as the conversation continues globally these impediments to news transmission are naturally overcome - distance and time have always guaranteed this.

The brutal and cynical attempt to exploit a perception of "small world" global communications (in which distance and time seem - erroneously - to have become an irrelevance), first by persuading people to dismiss all imperfect channels of transmission as "fake", and then to promote channels under their auspices and control as the only valid ones, is a very dangerous development if enough people forget their responsibilities to themselves and allow such people to decide these matters for them. However I believe this trend is based on a misinterpretation of how global communication actually works, even in this digital age (distance and time may have shrunk, but the considerable natural filter of cross-cultural and inter-social forces still apply - as is evidenced by the considerable "distance" between how would-be declarers of what is "fake" like Trump believe they are controlling our perception of them and how "we" actually are). It is also an extreme lack of appreciation through basic ignorance of how historically every revolution in transmission standards that has broadened the scope for effective transmission has been accompanied by such clumsy and malevolent attempts to control them. They have always failed, and will do as long as human nature predominantly requires the individual to at least believe they have fulfilled a discretionary filtering process in relation to what they are expected to believe as true. Once a particular society's members are, through persuasion or force, deprived of this option in sufficient numbers then the naturally destructive effect of attempting to dam the tide of information to an innately curious animal such as the human variety is an unavoidable consequence, one which sweeps the attempted controller of the media away as well as the artificial constraints they attempted to place on human nature regarding the individual's requirement to be socially aware based on dependable data.

Historically these things always work themselves out - often unfortunately not until a lot of damage has been done to many communities and over sustained periods of time - but to believe that this time round it's somehow "different" is to misunderstand both human nature and history.

nordmann,


while I have still time before my Norton protection expires and before the copious family dinner this evening...

"If the individual, however intelligent they may or may not be, places a value on being aware of what is going on in their society - domestic or global - then they have a duty to themselves to go beyond simplistic dismissal of all data deemed by a second party to be "fake", and instead to accept that they have a personal requirement to apply an intellectual filter to incoming data, one in which assessment of the source is only one facet. How far they go in applying such a filter, or even understanding its function, is as subjectively varied in its application and definition as there are individuals on the planet. But then even this subjective application of intelligently assessing intelligence is not a handicap but is itself an essential aspect of the process of disseminating information, as long of course as everyone understands their role in that process - in however a limited a fashion - in which they are not only recipients but also disseminators of information themselves. After all, this is essentially what "news" has always been - not a one-source, one-directional transfer of isolated data, but part of a global conversation conducted through many intermediaries, one of which is the individual recipient themselves. Misinformation, the "Chinese-whispers" effect, within that process is a given. As is disinformation in the form of hijacked sources and transmission methods reducing data to propaganda. But as long as the conversation continues globally these impediments to news transmission are naturally overcome - distance and time have always guaranteed this."

"But then even this subjective application of intelligently assessing intelligence is not a handicap but is itself an essential aspect of the process of disseminating information, as long of course as everyone understands their role in that process - in however a limited a fashion - in which they are not only recipients but also disseminators of information themselves. After all, this is essentially what "news" has always been - not a one-source, one-directional transfer of isolated data, but part of a global conversation conducted through many intermediaries, one of which is the individual recipient themselves. "

Yes, completely right.
"as long of course as everyone understands their role in that process - in however a limited a fashion - in which they are not only recipients but also disseminators of information themselves. "
And in that process in which I have received information and "interpretaded" I am now on this small board a disseminator of that news and that questioning  interpretation? And I await from other news gatherers a reaction in the trend of what you say in...?:
"After all, this is essentially what "news" has always been - not a one-source, one-directional transfer of isolated data, but part of a global conversation conducted through many intermediaries, one of which is the individual recipient themselves. "

"Misinformation, the "Chinese-whispers" effect, within that process is a given. As is disinformation in the form of hijacked sources and transmission methods reducing data to propaganda. But as long as the conversation continues globally these impediments to news transmission are naturally overcome - distance and time have always guaranteed this."

"Chinese whispers"
Perhaps Meles meles will recognize this, as he too was sometime in these circumstances....if we wanted that our thoughts would be heard by the direction, we started sometimes some "news" that we had heard from the basis, not directly from that basis, but our own analysis and synthesis of what we heard among the basis...and then we said we have heard that from babbles, while sitting on the toilets...as we were working between the basis we used the same toilets...in fact that was disinformation Embarassed as you called it?

In the meantime, again to what I said some days ago about the BBC. Today still nothing on BBC World about the European trio, including the UK, that stands against the Trump Iran declaration. Only on BBC Europe something about it, and then pointing to the French Macron that he is afraid of a trade war and his economic ties with Iran...Has the UK no ties with Iran? Overhere today in the leading Dutch language Belgian papers that I read a lot about the upcoming summit in Brussels with the trio UK, France, Germany about that point of view from Europe and next time about the European top in ...(Bulgaria?)
Is there such a difference in news gathering in the UK and the continent? And the UK only twenty miles from Europe?
I ask Vizzer and Triceratops for their opinion? LiR if you are politically interested? Meles meles?, I and Nielsen not an insider in the UK...

PS: as we are speaking about news...in the leading papers that I just mentioned...the chemical attack which led to the bombing in Syria is now undoubtly from Assad, due to that papers...although along my source from Jiglu the UN team is still investigating for chemicals overthere and there are no conclusions yet...
"presumed attack" or "attack" it is perhaps a subtil difference, but in geopolitical disicussions it makes quite a political stance...
As if the Golan Heigths are now from Israel or from Syria Wink ?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 12 May 2018, 16:50

@Dirk Marinus wrote:
I think that at present:

  Believe NOTHING you hear , believe Half you read but......believe ALL you see.


Dirk

Dirk,

not sure about that seeing...and then you can't be everywhere to see the events yourself...and today even more than before they can manipulate film and pictures...in my opinion it is the reilability of the source which is important and even that...
BTW: Last week overhere a lot about the Band of Nivelles....I mentioned a BBC film about it in your Gladio thread overhere...about the anti-Communist right wing movements in Europe...today one, residing abroad, and of that right wing organisation, Westland New Post has spoken during a visit in Belgium together with his laywer to the investigators...pointing to a leader of that organisation as one of the band of Nivelles (in Dutch.... in French "les tueurs de Brabant"), which committed the murders...
And it was already a conspiracy theory, immediately after the murders, LiR...
Dirk too late to seek on the board for your thread? while tomorrow my computer protection expires and this evening a dinner with the family...

Kind regards from your Low Countries friend, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 14 May 2018, 22:42

Dirk,

as it is too late to reply to all the latest erudite messages of this board, I only add something to my BBC World news message of before about the Trump-Iran exchange...

In the BBC World news nothing (that subject is seemingly not world news anymore), but only in the BBC news Europe:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44080723
And in that: one sentence about the UK:
"France, Germany and the UK all say they remain committed to the nuclear deal with Iran and to expanding business ties, provided Iran sticks to its commitments."
And as I understand it well, the UK is still "partie prenante" in the EU up to now?

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 15 May 2018, 13:49

Paul Rykier wrote:
...especially for the quality of the messages and a reasoning without consession


"A reasoning without concession" - that phrase sent shivers down my spine. It is Orwellian in its implications.The quality and eloquence of nordmann's posts are beyond dispute, but I am not so sure that an ability to reason "without concession" is something we should be either applauding or celebrating. It is surely wise to acknowledge - if it is present - the merit of other points of view. We may not always agree with others, but a gracious acknowledgement that there are alternative ways of looking and seeing is usually a wise option.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it, " said Aristotle. Perhaps he had a point?


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 15 May 2018, 14:11

It would send shivers down my spine too if I reckoned it was an accurate impression of how I think. Fortunately it's a little wide of the mark - in a discussion requiring one to state one's own point of view this is all I tend to do.

However when it comes to spine shivering, and in the context of the present discussion, I am more inclined to shudder at the following:

Dirk wrote:
Believe NOTHING you hear , believe Half you read but......believe ALL you see.

The commandment to "believe ALL you see" in relation to what aspect of reportage should be most readily accepted as true is rather frightening, at least if one contemplates how many people might actually do just that. My own stipulation that one applies as rigorous an intellectual filter to all data presented as "news" covers this use of media too, and in fact is probably required even more if accepting things on face value when presented visually than when disseminated through the spoken or written word. However I reckon Dirk may have intended simply to highlight using the evidence of one's own eyes and one's own instinctively informed interpretation of this before readily accepting any other manipulated media reportage, and if so then I concur completely with him, though I would go beyond restricting this intelligent application of reason to the sense of sight alone.

So you see, I can indeed assess the merit of other points of view, and frequently do too.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 15 May 2018, 15:07

Regarding the above remarks by Nordmann, "... So you see,  can indeed assess the merit of other points of view, and frequently do too."

A little irrellevant and irreverent comment, on the fringe of an old poptune, "Who put the ..." 

Who put the ass into assess? 
[I'm speaking as of me, personally, no one else intended as I often feel an ass when in here.]




I'd better get me coat ...
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 15 May 2018, 17:59

@nordmann wrote:

So you see, I can indeed assess the merit of other points of view, and frequently do too.

Point taken. Over and out.


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 15 May 2018, 23:58

@Temperance wrote:
Paul Rykier wrote:
...especially for the quality of the messages and a reasoning without consession


"A reasoning without concession" - that phrase sent shivers down my spine. It is Orwellian in its implications.The quality and eloquence of nordmann's posts are beyond dispute, but I am not so sure that an ability to reason "without concession" is something we should be either applauding or celebrating. It is surely wise to acknowledge - if it is present - the merit of other points of view. We may not always agree with others, but a gracious acknowledgement that there are alternative ways of looking and seeing is usually a wise option.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it, " said Aristotle. Perhaps he had a point?


Temperance,

before going to sleep, the last part of the evening on Historum about the history of Belgium to someone denigrating it...
But so glad to see you back on the forum that I couldn't let you in the cold...
In a hurry...
"reasoning without concession" I know it is so difficult to explain it all and in a conversation as there is immediate respons one can expand on what one really wants to say...but in a conversation one has perhaps no time to think before he speaks and that also can lead to...
My thought was, that he (nordmann) was always consistent in his reasoning in the sense that he never made a concession to the "logic" in that reasoning, even that far that  if he found an error in his own logic by himself or pointed to by others, he corrected it immediately, because "logic" was/is primordial to him...

That said I am looking forward to new interesting discussions with you...and expanding tomorrow more on this particular subject if you want...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 16 May 2018, 00:38

Paul wrote:
But so glad to see you back on the forum that I couldn't let you in the cold...

You are as courteous as ever, Paul. Thank you for the above kindly response.

Logic is not my strong point, I'm afraid. When it comes to "assessment", I get an E- (probably a generous grade) which is a bit depressing, but there you have it. Will try not to give up completely.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 16 May 2018, 20:35

@Temperance wrote:
Paul wrote:
But so glad to see you back on the forum that I couldn't let you in the cold...

You are as courteous as ever, Paul. Thank you for the above kindly response.

Logic is not my strong point, I'm afraid. When it comes to "assessment", I get an E- (probably a generous grade) which is a bit depressing, but there you have it. Will try not to give up completely.

Temperance,

thanks for the reply, but I think to comment further on your thoughts on the "comparison" thread, where  you also replied...
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1262-comparison-relation-of-christianity-and-islam-to-secular-authorities

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 18 May 2018, 17:45

As Britain drowns in a foetid swamp of nauseating, forelock-tugging, Royal obsequiousness - all set against the very real and urgent problems of Brexit, the usurpation of democracy to 'the will of the people', and the hostile illegal deportation of immigrants from both the old Empire and the newer EU - I'd be interested to know what UK visa Meghan Markle (as a US citizen) is on.

Presumably it's a marriage visa, which means that she will have to leave the country within 6 months because it cannot be extended or switched for a different one. Although you may get married on a visitor visa, this only applies if you do it on the spur of the moment. It is not permitted to enter on a standard visitor visa if you have the intention of getting married, which I believe is fairly well documented in her specific case. Unfortunately if she does come in on a marriage visa she is not permitted to work, which would mean that this cannot be a Royal wedding, and the taxpayer should not be paying for it or any part of it. Should the taxpayer pay for it, then it is work and she is in breach of the immigration laws and should be deported.

As she is going to be in breach of the visa laws at some point, (inevitably, either by working or getting married on a visitor visa) I wonder when she will be given her deportation notice - before or after the honeymoon. Likewise, will she be ineligible in the future for permanent leave to remain, should she stay here, illegally, for over 5 years having already breached immigration rules?

I don't have a lot of interest in the couple - although good luck to them and all that - but I do have an interest in this wedding ... mostly about why there's one set of rules for the rich and those with connections, and completely another set for everyone else.


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 18 May 2018, 17:58

Mm,

Re '... mostly about why you have one set of rules for the rich and those with connections, and another for the rest.


As my Latin at best is scratchy, so I stand to be corrected, but I have been informed that "privilege" is a deviate into "private law" - a set of laws pertaining to only some part/s of a community, so, in my best French, "keine Hexerei nur Behändigkeit" - or there you are, and Bob's your uncle.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 06:30

To be honest the Brexit series was really starting to sag a bit. Plotlines going in circles, lots of repetition, with very little progress, dated themes, and some terribly unbelievable characters. I had high hopes for the special Chequers episode, which seemed to be setting the scene for a sort of Miss Marple murder-mystery à la Cluedo (… I was thinking perhaps May stabbed in the back in the library, Johnson bludged with a gammon in the kitchen, Davies from poisoned whiskey in the drawing room etc … possibly even with a cameo role for Barnier as Poirot, "Alors, qui est responsible for this ‘orrific mess?"). But no, in the end there was little real action and just the same tired dialogue.
 
But blimey now they're really ramping up the drama in the build up to the finale. Bravo!
 
Seriously though, how can they go ahead with Brexit when the people responsible for delivering it can't even agree what 'it' is, and as soon as they get close to a consensus everyone resigns because they don't want to be associated with the total screwup they've helped engineer. So until such time as someone comes up with a plan than delivers immediate, tangible, quantifiable, and real benefits for the people and the economy, Brexit should be put back in the box where it belongs. The cart has been miles ahead of the horse right from the very beginning and it seems like nothing is going to change that - regardless of how many people resign.
 
But at least Britain might get a proper Foreign Secretary now to replace that odious, self-serving, slimey slug, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. But the way things are going Trump might have to be met, when he arrives on Thursday, by the No.10 tea-lady as the only person left in any position of responsibility.

Meanwhile here in France, after completely losing interest in Britain's Brexit suicide for many months, we're now settling down again with the popcorn in eager expectation of the next highly entertaining episode of the Brexit saga.


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 09:23

MM, when referring to Ms Markle (or the Duchess of Sussex I suppose I should say now) are you inferring that things were different for her (in the case of whom she was marrying) than if a lady from an average family in the Bronx wanted to marry a UK citizen and live in the UK?  As it happens one of my work colleagues when I was at the Natural History Museum was an American citizen who had acquired an English fiancé - when she applied for a visa the normal way, did everything right, she was turned down.  What she and her boyfriend did was to go to the States, the official line being that they were going to introduce him to her parents, and got married over there - she applied for a spouse's visa and fortunately this time she got it.  This all took some weeks though.  I think they went back to live in the States later when arrangements had been made for her husband to get a green card or whatever it is.

As for forelock tugging, although Dennis Skinner MP appears to retain a full head of hair I don't think he'll be tugging a forelock somehow.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 10 Jul 2018, 18:13

@Meles meles wrote:
Meanwhile here in France, after completely losing interest in Britain's Brexit suicide for many months, we're now settling down again with the popcorn in eager expectation of the next highly entertaining episode of the Brexit saga.

A comment today in Le Canard Enchâiné (literally the chained duck - although 'canard' is also slang for a newspaper - it's a French satirical magazine/newspaper roughly equivalent to Britain's 'Private Eye'), is that the UK now officially ticks all the boxes for being a Banana Republic, "... with day-after-day of sunshine; a constantly collapsing corrupt government; a steady depreciation in its currency; and a good football team." Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 11 Jul 2018, 14:57




We're a Banana Constitutional Monarchy actually, so there.  tongue tongue tongue

In some ways I hope we lose tonight - the thought of playing France on Sunday and them winning (that Kylian Mbappe is just so good  pale ) would be like Agincourt or Waterloo all over again and us losing...  

Imagine the EU response: the whole of Europe will jump for joy and the gloating will never end. Such a defeat would be the end of us even as a BCM. Banana cake will be all we're good for.

It's unbearable - but at least it's not so hot today. Thunder is threatening. Bet there'll be a power cut for the penalty shoot-out.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 11 Jul 2018, 18:49

But equally I'm sure you can imagine the nauseating jingoistic crowing that would follow should England beat France! Rolling Eyes

As you are probably all aware I have absolutely zero interest in football, nor indeed in any organised 'sports', and especially not in this world cup farce, but I have nevertheless been rooting for one particular soccer team over the past couple of weeks - the Wild Boars - the young Thai footy team trapped in the Tham Luang Nang Non cave. Thankfully they are all now rescued, although sadly at the terrible cost of the death of a Thai navy diver. The British press all too frequently and casually uses the word 'hero' for any prima donna footballer who is paid thousands just to kick a ball around ... but to my mind real heroes are the volunteer civillian cave divers from several countries, who quietly offered their services and who selflessly risked their lives to rescue those boys.

PS:

@Temperance wrote:
We're a Banana Constitutional Monarchy actually, so there.  

Hmm ... Jean-Bédel Bokassa, 'Emperor of Central Africa' also claimed to be a constitutional monarch, ... even when he had suppressed the rule of law in favour of his personal rule by dictact; plundering and eventually bankrupting the country for his own vanity projects; and openly murdering any dissenting voices whether they be the (banned) government opposition or just impoverished schoolkids.

Admittedly though I can't see Liz and Phil indulging in cannabalism.   Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 12 Jul 2018, 08:38

MM wrote:
Admittedly though I can't see Liz and Phil indulging in cannabalism.

True, but one never knows what the future may hold:



The immediate future is horrendously gloomy here what with one thing and another, but I have to admit I am secretly relieved: the thought of living through all that tension again on Sunday is now over. I suppose France will win and Macron will make political capital out of it. But who can blame him? That's life.

I agree entirely with what you say about the divers who effected the cave rescue. Amazing stuff - and Thailand should be proud of those young lads - so calm and brave while living through everyone's worst nightmare.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 12 Jul 2018, 09:27

MM, during my convalescence from the effects of diminished red corpuscles (side effect of the coeliac disease) and then enforced resting when I had a broken arm I already admitted to my shame that I watched some of the nuttier videos on YouTube.  There are people who accuse Her Maj of eating as you have alluded to her probably not doing.  Mind you there are also videos accusing her of being a lizard person.  Some people seem to believe the contents of some of the nutty videos though.  I didn't mention it outright but on the Dutch Hapsburg thread (that's not quite the right name) I mentioned the savagery with which the brothers de Witt were overthrown and Wikipedia said that the corpses were at least in part cannibalised.

I'd have loved England to win in the footie even though I'm not a footie fan but I guess it wasn't to be.

I'm so happy that the young Thai boys were saved and was indeed saddened to learn of the death of one of the divers.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 16 Jul 2018, 09:31

The term "constitutional monarch" implies that a constitution exists. You can immediately see the problem there in a British context, whether inclusive of bananas or not.

I hear on the UK news today that there is growing support politically for a "new referendum". And so the stupidity continues ....
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 17 Jul 2018, 15:45

The most unbearable of the whole tournament was the 'it's coming home' sillyness and it was such a relief when it wasn't coming home after all. The gloating and nationalistic frenzy would have been worse than that of the London Olympics, simply too much for anyone to swallow.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 19 Jul 2018, 08:57

@Islanddawn wrote:
The most unbearable of the whole tournament was the 'it's coming home' sillyness and it was such a relief when it wasn't coming home after all. The gloating and nationalistic frenzy would have been worse than that of the London Olympics, simply too much for anyone to swallow.

Absolutely. You wouldn't get the cool and rational French indulging in any such  "silliness"!











Smile


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 19 Jul 2018, 10:27

@Temperance wrote:

I agree entirely with what you say about the divers who effected the cave rescue. Amazing stuff - and Thailand should be proud of those young lads - so calm and brave while living through everyone's worst nightmare.

Having just seen the press conference following the boys’ release from hospital, I am amazed at how calmly they coped with the ordeal and how well they seem to have recovered both physically and mentally. They were trapped on a mudbank, alone, cold and wet, ill-clothed and with no food, in complete darkness for nine days before they were found, and further week or so before they could all be rescued by means both largely untried and very dangerous. I wonder how well a similar group of ‘western’ kids would have managed. And I don’t mean that in a snide way to imply western 'snowflakes' couldn’t last ten minutes without their mobile phones and MacDonald’s burgers, but rather how they might cope mentally. I feel there is something about the stoic Thai/Buddhist attitude of calm acceptance of what-will-be-will-be, that helped. Certainly being all members of a close-knit team with a coach who they clearly adored and respected, helped. But I noted that the coach had trained as a monk and encouraged the boys to practice meditation during their ordeal; to keep them calm and conserve their strength, and to divert their minds from worrying about their predicament. 

I used to go caving regularly for over two decades – mostly weekends in the Yorkshire Dales but sometimes longer trips and expeditions in the high mountains around Europe - and I was once in a small group trapped by flooding in a Yorkshire pothole. After the initial scramble to get out of the low passages that were rapidly flooding to the roof, we managed to get into a more spacious, high but narrow rift, which was easily climbable. Having survived the initial flood pulse and now got ourselves installed on a ledge well above the rising water, there was little immediate danger: we were all well equipped, with lighting for many hours and confident that the water levels would eventually go down again at most after a few days. We were all used to being underground even in complete darkness and indeed some of us had even camped deep underground for several days while exploring deep systems. Nevertheless it was still un-nerving to be so completely cut off. The thing that I most recall is the quietness. As the cave flooded the normal chuckle of the stream changed to a full-throated roar, but then as the water deepened and cascades became submerged, it got quieter again until eventually, with the passages both up- and downstream now flooded to the roof, it all went eerily quiet. And that really brought home how cut off we were, trapped in an isolated air pocket. In the end the water went down and we came out as normal just eight hours later than expected.

So again I am very impressed by the resilience of the Wild Boars football team and strongly feel that a major part of their survival and successful rescue was their cultural attitude, although I'll admit I really don't know very much about Bhuddhist philosopy. Perhaps I should be posting this on the ‘Benefits of Religion’ thread or the one about stoicism.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:03

MM wrote:
Perhaps I should be posting this on the ‘Benefits of Religion’ thread or the one about stoicism.

How I agree with what you say. Oddly enough I had an email from the much-missed Priscilla (wish someone - the Boss? - would invite her back here) in which she mentioned the Buddhist training of the boys' coach - and how, in that truly dreadful predicament, he encouraged them all to meditate. Priscilla also mentioned the Benefits of Religion thread. May I have your permission to copy and post your message there, MM? Perhaps some interesting discussion would develop.

Your ordeal sounds utterly mind blowing too. I wouldn't last ten minutes in such a dark, claustrophobic place without panicking. Thank goodness you too survived to tell the tale.

I have never meditated, although we do ten minutes so-called "meditation" at the end of our Pilates class. Absolute farce when you think of the years of dedicated study a Buddhist monk has to devote to the practice. I just lie there quietly on my mat and think about my shopping list. I am not a good example of either philosophical or religious discipline I am afraid.

And somehow those Thai boys and their coach make all the posturing, narcissistic politicians like Trump and Putin seem such utter fools - albeit highly dangerous fools.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 19 Jul 2018, 14:06

@Temperance wrote:
Priscilla also mentioned the Benefits of Religion thread. May I have your permission to copy and post your message there, MM? Perhaps some interesting discussion would develop.

Of course you may, although in my ignorance of Bhuddhism I may well be unable to contribute very much myself.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 20 Jul 2018, 21:25

@nordmann wrote:
And so the stupidity continues ....

As does the very low level of public discourse. This morning, for example, BBC One's Breakfast program was reviewing the papers and one of the presenters held up an article to camera and said that it related to:

"Leo Varadkar the Irish prime minister saying that you can't have your cake and eat it. This is apparently what he's been reported saying after a cabinet meeting. This is the visit of Theresa May saying that you can't take back our waters. This is all about the border between over the Irish Sea or potential border between the landmass over in Northern Ireland and Ireland and the UK and the rest of England and Scotland."

So that cleared that up.
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The Elephant in the Room.

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