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 The Elephant in the Room

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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptySun 22 Sep 2019, 23:22

If Boris - as seems likely - loses the judgment could he claim  'Benefit of Clergy' as Ben Jonson did? it would mean getting his thumb branded, of course...….. how about Johnson and Jonson?
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptySat 23 Nov 2019, 13:45

Not so much an elephant in the parlour this but more like a mouse hiding under the floorboards of the woodshed. The Bougainville independence referendum begins today. This referendum has been in the offing since the ceasefire in the island’s civil war was agreed in the late 1990s. A largely unknown conflict (unknown in Britain at least) I’m surprised to discover that the 10-year struggle with Papua New Guinea federal forces resulted in over 1,000 combat deaths. This is comparable, for example, with the 3,500 who died in the 30 years of the Northern Ireland troubles. Yet some estimates suggest that in Bougainville 10 times as many civilians died during the civil war taking the death toll to over 10,000.

By coincidence this year sees the 230th anniversary of the naming of the flowering plant genus Bougainvillea (native to South America) in honour of the French explorer Louis Antoine de Bougainville who in 1768 charted the South Pacific island which bears his name and this month also marks the 290th anniversary of his birth:

The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpECQ0EbMZnAs1NkWAmZ0AyHqQuauinNea4jddgO98F0i1C-7Q&s (Louis Antoine de Bougainville 1729-1811)

The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmBgxJshFZWdkjYRIoIoZfJ71PtGYhy3etNziaNZWvaMYHs8KveA&s (Bougainvillea glabra)

The result of the referendum is due to be announced on 20 December.
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Priscilla
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Priscilla

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptySat 23 Nov 2019, 15:35

For the record, Viz;  the UK one is now being called the Neverendum
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 30 Jan 2020, 10:33

Open the door - Coming through - One exhausted elephant. Trump Trump Trump.  

Well. well well. Muddling through without a constitution and no riots  and yesterday no nasty scenes in Strasburg and only - as ever and expected, a few pithy Irish words like it not Brexit is almost done. Whether saving a fistful of millions a week will make a difference or we head into an pit of insolvency or not it is a relief to have this done with. …. well for some of us, anyway. One of the victims of the affair may have been Res Hist where exchanges became heated and tinged with deep rooted animosity. But, being English. we are used to it..... or get over it, more likely. So moving on...…… what next, eh?


Last edited by Priscilla on Thu 30 Jan 2020, 10:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Slpppy typing)
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 30 Jan 2020, 11:44

@Priscilla wrote:

Well. well well. Muddling through without a constitution and no riots and yesterday no nasty scenes in Strasburg and only - as ever and expected, a few pithy Irish words like it not Brexit is almost done.

Is this satire? Ignoring yesterday's nasty scenes in Strasburg from the odious Farage, Brexit is very far from "done". The only thing that will change after tomorrow is that the UK will have no more say in EU affairs, otherwise for a year everything essentially stays the same, including all the EU trade agreements and services that the UK benefits from and of course the UK's payments for these services. In the meantime the British government still doesn't seem to have a sensible plan for what comes next. In the face of clear and unchanging statements from the EU, the British government is currently frantically rowing back on many of its cake-and-eat it election promises to the British people, and so would appear to be heading for a super-soft brexit: a so-called Brexit-in-name only, in which case why do it at all? Alternatively, by boxing itself into a corner and refusing to face harsh reality, Britain could inadvertantly be heading for a hard, crash-out brexit. Either way considerable damage has already been done to the UK's reputation and finances. That compulsive liar, Al Johnson, may be hoping everyone believes him when he says, hand on heart, that he's finally delivered brexit and it's now all over, but I'm afraid the real hard work, repercussions and inevitable compromises, are only just about to begin: and will probably only be seriously felt and understood over the decade to come. After that, well, who can say?

By all means try and ignore it if you want, but I fear the brexit elephant is still firmly esconced in the best chair in the middle of the parlour, greedily demanding to be fed cakes and ale, while pocketing the silver spoons, damaging the furniture, dominating the conversation and generally preventing anything else getting done.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 30 Jan 2020, 15:42

I'm not convinced BJ has delivered a better deal than Theresa May had proposed. Some of my acquaintances think TM gave away too much of our (the UK's) bargaining power in the early stages.  My feeling (and anyone and everyone is free to disagree) is that some folk took it for granted that "Remain" would win and were too idle to turn out to vote back in 2016.  Still to quote a couple of lines from an old song "The future's not ours to see; What will be, will be".  My understanding is that it has already affected some online businesses dealing with overseas clients (I'm not talking about people like myself doing a bit of typing to top up the pension).
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 30 Jan 2020, 16:29

No not satire, MM just a different way of looking at elephamts.... the front end does not drop big dollops that have to be cleaned up. For all of that the chain is off and it may be stuck in the door but it is on its way out. To get  it through the door we may well have to down size our elephant and learn to live here with the consequences - which many seem to hope will be dire at best and we'll get  what we all deserve Ah well I chose to live here and suffer it all and you chose to go away and of course we will see and sense things differently. As our payments eventually fade there may  even be some more wakeup jolts within the EU.

That should bring out the wrath of the angry gods pf the site........as they say in parts here, Ta Ta for now.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 30 Jan 2020, 18:12

@Priscilla wrote:
As our payments eventually fade there may  even be some more wakeup jolts within the EU.

Errr ... following the UK's 2016 referendum the EU 2017 budget was duly adjusted to allow for the UK leaving on the original expected date in 2018,  ... although that didn't happen because the UK got cold feet and begged to stay a bit longer. Nevertheless from 2016 onwards all EU budgets have been calculated on the basis that there would be no future UK input (and if you don't believe me, their accounts are always available to view on-line). Accordingly for over three years now, to make up for the loss of the UK's contributions and costs (which are anyway fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things), France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal, - in fact every other EU country - have agreed that it's in their own best interests just to cover the loss from Britain going.

So good-bye and good-luck with your English brexit, but beyond the first few years, you really ain't going to be missed in business terms, and all the more so if you choose to realign with the US or China. Meanwhile big companies and international bureaux continue to transfer from British to European cities. On a personal level I'm very sad and brexit certainly leaves me very much worse off for a whole load of reasons, not the least financially.

Nevertheless, despite Johnson's bluster, lies and spin, brexit is still very far from being completed, and I don't think the lumbering brexit elephant-in-the-room will be going anywhere soon. After more than three years there's still no more than about 50% of the British population that actually want brexit, and so there's no real mandate at all. But at least now that the brexiters claim to have 'won' - and accordinly dismiss the other half of the population as as unpatriotic traitorous losers - they now own it completely. The brexit behemoth is theirs entirely: it's their brexit, their responsibility, their mess.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptySat 01 Feb 2020, 15:40

Meles meles... wrote:
Errr ... following the UK's 2016 referendum the EU 2017 budget was duly adjusted to allow for the UK leaving on the original expected date in 2018,  ... although that didn't happen because the UK got cold feet and begged to stay a bit longer. Nevertheless from 2016 onwards all EU budgets have been calculated on the basis that there would be no future UK input (and if you don't believe me, their accounts are always available to view on-line). Accordingly for over three years now, to make up for the loss of the UK's contributions and costs (which are anyway fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things), France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal, - in fact every other EU country - have agreed that it's in their own best interests just to cover the loss from Britain going.

...

So good-bye and good-luck with your English brexit, but beyond the first few years, you really ain't going to be missed in business terms, and all the more so if you choose to realign with the US or China. Meanwhile big companies and international bureaux continue to transfer from British to European cities. On a personal level I'm very sad and brexit certainly leaves me very much worse off for a whole load of reasons, not the least financially.

...

Without wishing to get into the ongoing Brexit debate, I have a few comments to the above.
Re the remaining EU states agreeing to cover the budget deficit, in the present discussion on enlargement of the budgets for the next 7-year period, the stance of the present Danish government appears to be along the lines of 'Make haste slowly'. 
I am well aware of the size of Denmark within the EU - and so is our Government - but here there is and always has been a lot of scepticism on the aim of the EU becoming a major player in a changing world, and that includes yours truly.

I am sorry that all of this apparently leave you worse of, MM, hopefully this is only temporarily and things will look up again.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptySun 02 Feb 2020, 09:02

I mentioned upthread that when I attended a talk some months ago given by someone from Forestry England (what used to be the Forestry Commission) he said that some funding (well he specifically alluded to the Welsh successor to the Forestry Commission) came from the EU.  In the UK we did get some money out of the EU as well as contribute money to it.

Didn't we all decide that the original elephant wasn't the B word (and that was how the Saluting the Flag thread came about).

I've discussed the red-headed one's "lies and bluster" with people (in real life not the internet) and reactions range from total bewilderment as to how he got to this position of power to folk saying they know he's a liar but trust him to "get things done".  What "things" I'm unsure.  Get the B word put in place (well that's happened now) I suppose - but that's only one "thing".
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 08:21

@LadyinRetirement wrote:

Didn't we all decide that the original elephant wasn't the B word (and that was how the Saluting the Flag thread came about).

Nothing to decide - the thread was opened to discuss what seemed like impending Scottish independence from the UK a few years ago. That elephant, if anything, has now grown so large that the room hardly fits it any more.

On the Brexit thing, and avoiding silly stuff like Priscilla posted above (the "net contributor" notion on which the "our payments" remark was based simply shows which newspaper one reads, not that one understands the 8:1 benefit accrued in strictly financial terms from membership of the EU and/or regulated access to the single market); In my day job I've been busy in the last week assisting in the design of an urgent migration plan for companies based here in Norway who at the moment have either outsourced data storage and network use to UK companies or, and this covers whole industry sectors, use accreditation and standard-compliance certification obtained from UK based agencies. In light of Johnson's statement last week that the UK has no intention of complying to EU regulations the government here (along with several other countries) has now officially given all such firms an ultimatum to have completely jettisoned their reliance on UK  agencies within the agreed withdrawal period. By December this year any company which still utilises UK data security accreditation or cites UK industry standard accreditation will be deemed non-compliant with the EU's very strict GDPR regulations and will not be allowed trade within the European single market. Interestingly, those companies ahead of the game who have already started this migration away from the UK services industry have identified alternative viable accreditation sources, besides those issued within the EU itself, in Canada (engineering industry accreditation secured as valid within the much mentioned Canada-EU trade agreement) and Switzerland (financial services accreditation, also much mentioned by the frog-faced one, and also thrashed out after 15 years of negotiation with the EU). Bear in mind that I'm not even in an EU country, but some simple rule of thumb calculations for Norway alone - a country which traditionally has favoured the UK for such services - would suggest an immediate loss to the UK of about 10% of its services industry annual intake. Given that some other big financial players are doing exactly the same thing (just today we've been contacted by a large trade association representing US companies operating close to or within the EU single market and who also are taking this drastic - and irreversible - step) what this means for those UK-based companies is hard to predict - though I would imagine that unless alternative customers are identified who are willing to avail of now rather worthless accreditation, and to the same tune as existed before Johnson stupidly announced his country no longer intends to respect such standards, then I simply can't see them surviving.

It seems the "Brexit" debate has indeed ended.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 12:29

Things have changed here in a way I think people abroad do not understand; and the change was felt on Friday 13th December, not last Saturday. No one mentions Brexit here now - it's over. The Prime Minister was asked about this odd phenomenon just a few minutes ago, after his address to UK business leaders; and he - much to my amusement - likened the whole business to the Glorious Revolution of 1688. It's "gone" (his word); it has "happened". Something certainly has "happened" here and, as noted above, the subtle shift in the zeitgeist occurred overnight just before Christmas 2019; and it all took place as the not-so-silly Priscilla pointed out - without noise, riots or bloodshed. What a boring lot we Brits are. I am reminded of a 1930s headline which made me laugh (sorry): Fog in Channel - Continent Cut Off.

But I am terribly saddened by our Glorious Revolution II. I read nordmann's post with dismay and some bewilderment. As ever, one expert says one thing, and another tells us the opposite. Some high-up chap in the UK IT business has just been on BBC News saying how everything in his sector is booming. Is it? Fake optimism? Talking it all up? Are the Chinese our new best friends? I honestly don't know what or whom to believe.

Keep taking lots of Vitamin C; wash your hands with hot soapy water every two minutes - and hope for the best.


Last edited by Temperance on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 16:12; edited 2 times in total
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 12:38

The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 Glorious-revolution2


Boris Lands in Torbay? No good ever came via Torquay.


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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 13:32

Following the recent massive cliff collapses there, it seems that Torbay itself is undecided whether to retreat into its English hinterland, to try and physically depart for foreign shores, or just to throw all caution to the wind and waves, and cast itself into the sea:

The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 Torbay-1


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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 13:36

Must be awful if you bought a nice retirement flat there.

Oh dear, mustn't laugh.


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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 13:43

They are apparently very expensive and exclusive retirement flats. Or rather they were, I imagine the market value has dropped of late ... a bit like what the end of their garden has done.

Seriously though, those look like quite new developments: but who in their right mind would buy property on top of a crumbling cliff, when it's well-known that the south-west coastline is eroding rapidly and the whole of the south of England is gradually sinking.

Still, the rock is Old Red Sandstone which weathers away to a very fine sand ... so the beaches will remain excellent.


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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 13:50

Meles meles wrote:
... and the whole of the south of England is gradually sinking

Smile
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Meles meles
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Meles meles

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 14:09

And so by the same argument - the holocene, post-glacial, isostatic rebound in NW Europe - Scotland is very much on the rise ... Norway, however, not so much.

Smile

But perhaps we should actually try to understand politics and economics within a more geologically/climatically relevant timescale. That would at the very least favour some more longer-term planning than is usual in most government circles.


Last edited by Meles meles on Thu 20 Feb 2020, 18:41; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I meant than not that - it changes the whole meaning)
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 14:43

@Meles meles wrote:
And so by the same argument (the holocene, post-glacial, isostatic rebound in NW Europe)...


Que?

MM wrote:

But perhaps we should try to understand politics and economics in a more geologically/climatically relevant timescale.


Oh, do we have to? Can't we just have another drink?
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 14:47

Bien sûr ma cherie ... and we're now finally out of dry January (or dry gin -uary as I celebrated it) and so we're now just at the start of all the bacchanal spring celebrations leading up to Carnivale ... so do, by all means, help yourself to a glass of whatever you fancy.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyMon 03 Feb 2020, 16:26

Thank you, MM, but I think I must move house at once. I have been reading this report about us sinking  and it is really scary. Devon is a daft place to live, especially if you are two fields away from a tidal river! If the flu doesn't do for me, I shall drown because of the post Ice-Age tilt of the UK. Honestly, as if we didn't have enough to worry about. I note the Irish and the Welsh are for it, too.  What a shame. Smile


Doomed


Anyone want to buy a nice old cottage in Devon with  lovely river views?


A new map plots the most accurate predictions yet for land uplift and subsidence in the UK.

The map shows that southern Ireland and Wales, and southern and eastern England are continuing to sink, whilst Scotland is rising, at rates less than previously predicted.

The ‘Coastland Map’ produced by scientists from Durham University and published in the Journal ‘GSA Today’, charts the post Ice-Age tilt of the UK and Ireland and current relative sea-level changes. According to the map, the sinking effect in the south could add between 10 and 33 per cent to the projected sea-level rises caused by global warming over the next century.



That's really made my day - what with our Glorious Revolution 2020 and the Great Tilt, I think we all here in the UK definitely need another drink.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 20 Feb 2020, 17:26

Why do I feel like a number of aides/advisors to the current Conservative Government (not to mention people in it) HAVEN'T read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People?  Somebody resigned recently after making unfortunate remarks and then Business Minister Nadhim Zahawi said Bo-Jo wouldn't be visiting flood victims to avoid "a media jamboree".  "Jamboree" was hardly an appropriate word - it took the lady interviewing NZ aback.

Mind you, I haven't read Dale Carnegie's book.
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Green George
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room   The Elephant in the Room - Page 16 EmptyThu 20 Feb 2020, 18:07

They won't be interested in such trivialities this far away from an election.
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