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Isaac C Bishop
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Isaac C Bishop

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PostSubject: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptyFri 20 May 2022, 19:57

I have been digging into Anglo-Saxon history, and it seems the mead halls were of pagan origin for the local chieftain or king. However, when England converted, it seems they were disregarded, perhaps viewed as a symbol of paganism. So my question is, did Christian kings maintain using mead halls in some cases, or even build some themselves.
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MarkUK
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PostSubject: Re: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptySat 21 May 2022, 09:07

The best example in England is said to be at Yeavering in Northumberland. The original structures were built by the ancients, but enlarged or rebuilt by the Anglo-Saxons. The site has been extensively excavated, although it doesn't look like much today as nothing remains above ground.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptySat 21 May 2022, 13:05

I would have thought that the 'pagan' mead halls of the earlier Anglo-Saxons - as exemplified by the remains at Yeavering/Gefrin and at West Stow, as well as described in Beowulf - simply evolved into the longhouses and manor houses of Saxon/Danish/Norman lords and then into the great halls of medieval kings and nobles (such as Westminster Hall erected in 1097 by William Rufus, or more humbly in the hundreds of 'great halls' in castles, abbeys and manor houses throughout Britain). They might have become Christians but I'm sure most of the early Anglo-Saxon-Danish chieftains/regional lords still liked a drink and moreover were usually expected to show off their wealth and status by hosting banquets and feasting amongst their followers. Or are you suggesting that their conversion to Christianity was accompanied by some sort of aesthetic temperance movement: and I'm not mocking, just asking why you think mead halls fell out of fashion with the conversion to Christianity, while dining communally 'in-hall' with one's friends, family and followers, remained the usual practice? Dining - and drinking - in public, with your loyal followers around you was a means of impressing guests and ensuring loyalty, and it remained a key part society long after feudal times. Indeed state dinners, coronation banquets, (competitive) birthday parties, wedding feasts, wakes, village barbeques, beer tents at summer fetes, street-parties for royal jubilees, guild dinners and collegial dining-in-hall ... are all still very much a part of modern society, no?

PS - Just to be clear having now seen some subsequent posts, by 'competitive' birthday parties I was thinking of modern children's parties and was rather mocking the current trend amongst certain areas of society to always try and out-do ones neighbours and supposed friends - and all the more so when you're a 'celeb' family with pictures to sell to the Sunday tabloids. Birthday parties when I was a nipper were simple but fun affairs hosted at home - with no particular fancy dress codes or themes; no professional entertainers or celebrity appearances; no fancy activities like face-painting, falconry, hang-gliding or scuba-diving; no expensive 'present bags' for every child; and certainly not with budgets running into hundreds or even thousands of pounds. We was poor but we was 'appy!


Last edited by Meles meles on Tue 24 May 2022, 16:57; edited 4 times in total
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Isaac C Bishop
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PostSubject: Re: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptySat 21 May 2022, 14:24

Meles meles wrote:
I would have thought that the 'pagan' mead halls of the earlier Anglo-Saxons - as exemplified by the remains at Yeavering/Gefrin and at West Stow, as well as described in Beowulf - simply evolved into the longhouses and manor houses of Saxon/Danish/Norman lords and then into the great halls of medieval kings and nobles (such as Westminster Hall erected in 1097 by William Rufus, or more humbly in the hundreds 'great halls' in castles, abbeys and manor houses throughout Britain). They might have become Christians but I'm sure most of the early Anglo-Saxon-Danish chieftains/regional lords still liked a drink and moreover were usually expected to show off their wealth and status by hosting banquets and feasting amongst their followers. Or are you suggesting that their conversion to Christianity was accompanied by some sort of aesthetic temperance movement: and I'm not mocking, just asking why you think mead halls fell out of fashion with the conversion to Christianity, while dining communally 'in-hall' with one's friends, family and followers, remained the usual practice? Dining - and drinking - in public, with your loyal followers around you was a means of impressing guests and ensuring loyalty, and it remained a key part society long after feudal times. Indeed state dinners, coronation banquets, (competitive) birthday parties, wedding feasts, wakes, village barbeques, beer tents at summer fetes, street-parties for royal jubilees, guild dinners and collegial dining-in-hall ... all still very much a part of modern society, no?

Well I always agreed with you and assumed it was a s such. But I am reding  The Anglo-Saxsons A History of the beginning of England 400-1066 by Marc Morris and he seems to imply the mead hall Quickley went out of fasion after the conversion from paganism. He implied the Church gave structural input on how to build better establishment for the lords.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptySun 22 May 2022, 13:44

Meles meles wrote:
(competitive) birthday parties

A birthday party features in The Squire’s Tale by Geoffrey Chaucer. One of the least known of The Canterbury Tales, the Squire’s Tale is also one of the shortest being unfinished. It was written around 1399 shortly before Chaucer’s death hence its unfinished state. The party in question is that of a king ‘cleped Cambyuskan’ who ‘dwelte at Sarray, in the land of Tartarye’. We learn that he was ‘a kyng that werreyed Russye’. This can be read as a king that worried Russia or a king who warred against Russia or both. There’s a slight chronological problem here, however, as Cambyuskan (believed to be Genghis Khan) died 10 years before the Mongols (or Tartars) invaded Kievan Rus which was the pre-eminent Russian state at that time. The khan by then was Genghis’ son Ogedai, while the invading Mongol forces were headed by Ogedai’s nephew Batu.
 
We can forgive Chaucer this slight discrepancy, though, as the events took place over 160 years before the ailing Geoffrey was writing and, besides, the tale isn’t really concerned with the invasion of Russia but focuses on Cambyuskan’s birthday party. We’re told that this took place ‘whan this Cambyuscan hath twenty wynter born his diademe’ (twenty years into his reign) and that ‘he leet the feeste of his nativitee’ (he held a feast for his birthday). The feasting takes place in three locations, in Cambyuscan’s ‘paleys’ (palace), in the temple and also in ‘the halle’. The first phase of the feast takes place in the palace and we’re told:

And halt his feeste so solempne and so ryche
That in this world ne was ther noon it lyche;
Of which if I shal tellen al th' array,
Thanne wolde it occupie a someres day,
And eek it nedeth nat for to devyse
At every cours the ordre of hire servyse.
I wol nat tellen of hir strange sewes,
Ne of hir swannes, ne of hire heronsewes.


And held his feast so solemnly and so richly
That in this world there was none of its like,
Of which if I were to tell of its array,
Then that would occupy a summer’s day,
And also there’s no need to describe
The order of the serving of every course.
I will not tell of its wondrous stews
Nor of its swans nor of its herons.
 
Once this first phase is over, we’re told that the guests then ‘to the soper dresse’. At face value this seems to mean ‘to dress for supper’ which begs the question of exactly how they were dressed beforehand. More likely, however, it means simply to prepare for supper in the hall. The supper begins with spiced cakes and wine accompanied by music which the guests eat and drink and then when this is ended, they head to the temple. When the service there is done, they then continue feasting in the hall for the rest of the day:

What nedeth yow rehercen hire array?
Ech man woot wel that a kynges feeste
Hath plentee to the meeste and to the leeste.


With all the wending from the palace to the hall then to the temple and then back to the hall, and with a seemingly inexhaustible series of food courses and entertainment, Chaucer is telling the reader that it’s great to be invited to such an event regardless of whether one is the wealthiest or the poorest of guests as there is always plenty for all. One gets the impression that even by the turn of the 15th century, the basic concept and function of a feasting hall was still the same as it had been, say, 700 years earlier at the turn of the 8th century.
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Isaac C Bishop
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PostSubject: Re: Mead Halls   Mead Halls EmptyTue 24 May 2022, 14:34

Vizzer wrote:
Meles meles wrote:
(competitive) birthday parties

A birthday party features in The Squire’s Tale by Geoffrey Chaucer. One of the least known of The Canterbury Tales, the Squire’s Tale is also one of the shortest being unfinished. It was written around 1399 shortly before Chaucer’s death hence its unfinished state. The party in question is that of a king ‘cleped Cambyuskan’ who ‘dwelte at Sarray, in the land of Tartarye’. We learn that he was ‘a kyng that werreyed Russye’. This can be read as a king that worried Russia or a king who warred against Russia or both. There’s a slight chronological problem here, however, as Cambyuskan (believed to be Genghis Khan) died 10 years before the Mongols (or Tartars) invaded Kievan Rus which was the pre-eminent Russian state at that time. The khan by then was Genghis’ son Ogedai, while the invading Mongol forces were headed by Ogedai’s nephew Batu.
 
We can forgive Chaucer this slight discrepancy, though, as the events took place over 160 years before the ailing Geoffrey was writing and, besides, the tale isn’t really concerned with the invasion of Russia but focuses on Cambyuskan’s birthday party. We’re told that this took place ‘whan this Cambyuscan hath twenty wynter born his diademe’ (twenty years into his reign) and that ‘he leet the feeste of his nativitee’ (he held a feast for his birthday). The feasting takes place in three locations, in Cambyuscan’s ‘paleys’ (palace), in the temple and also in ‘the halle’. The first phase of the feast takes place in the palace and we’re told:

And halt his feeste so solempne and so ryche
That in this world ne was ther noon it lyche;
Of which if I shal tellen al th' array,
Thanne wolde it occupie a someres day,
And eek it nedeth nat for to devyse
At every cours the ordre of hire servyse.
I wol nat tellen of hir strange sewes,
Ne of hir swannes, ne of hire heronsewes.


And held his feast so solemnly and so richly
That in this world there was none of its like,
Of which if I were to tell of its array,
Then that would occupy a summer’s day,
And also there’s no need to describe
The order of the serving of every course.
I will not tell of its wondrous stews
Nor of its swans nor of its herons.
 
Once this first phase is over, we’re told that the guests then ‘to the soper dresse’. At face value this seems to mean ‘to dress for supper’ which begs the question of exactly how they were dressed beforehand. More likely, however, it means simply to prepare for supper in the hall. The supper begins with spiced cakes and wine accompanied by music which the guests eat and drink and then when this is ended, they head to the temple. When the service there is done, they then continue feasting in the hall for the rest of the day:

What nedeth yow rehercen hire array?
Ech man woot wel that a kynges feeste
Hath plentee to the meeste and to the leeste.


With all the wending from the palace to the hall then to the temple and then back to the hall, and with a seemingly inexhaustible series of food courses and entertainment, Chaucer is telling the reader that it’s great to be invited to such an event regardless of whether one is the wealthiest or the poorest of guests as there is always plenty for all. One gets the impression that even by the turn of the 15th century, the basic concept and function of a feasting hall was still the same as it had been, say, 700 years earlier at the turn of the 8th century.


Great insight. Thanks for your source and analysis.
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