I need some definitions of these words that always emerge when spiritual matters and faiths are discussed here.

Surely 'logic' can only be applied to the truths of inorganic matter. Anything organic can never be relied upon to conform to given rules: truth is never quite pure because it depends upon viewpoint, opinion and an assortment of variables. Human progress continues to make illogical concepts of yore into  actualities in many fields of movement and communication. And in nature illogical progression through survival and adaption changes species. 

The very concept of life itself has yet to be fully understood - yet faith in human life's illogical concepts are booted out as illogical - usually because of lack of proofs.

At my frail age and mental strenth I know I ought not tangle with such matters - which was brought on by a stupid runner bean plant that will not climb its handy given pole but seeks out an onion to clamber about - even when wound about the pole it returned to its onion matey. I see no logic there and so much that is of life form activity is similar.

Logic sits more comfortably in the world of maths and physics, not  as a tool by which what we do not quite understand about life and its concepts can be measured. Chesterton's opinion was too severly dismissed in the Paul thread. The essence of Chrisianity and its long term success defies logic  but my, it still tastes good; very good.

The modified rachis in a runner bean which acts as the tendril is moisture sensitive. This is due to the plant's essentially parasitic behaviour in the wild. For this reason it will distinguish between animate and inanimate support and always favour the former. This is logical behaviour. As would also be removing the onion that offends ...

Anything that is reasonable in causality terms is logical. That is all the term means. And I would dispute completely that the "essence" of Christianity defies logic. It may appear to (many things appear to do this), but actually nothing can, not even so-called essences.

Have you tried talking to your runner bean, Priscilla? Gently at first, then, if it won't listen to reason, more sternly.

It won't listen of course, and I must admit I rather admire it for its beany determination to live as it wants and not be trained, bullied or dictated to by logic or sense or a nasty pole. It will no doubt die and possibly kill the onion too, but Lord, the pair of them will at least have lived - glorious and free - for a brief season.

Who wants an existence like this?  

I also have a bean, a solitary, lonely little pet beanstalk. Broad though, I think. It was the wean's, planted in a transparent pot as part of her school botany project and now it has been assigned to me to continue its nurture so it has been upgraded to larger accommodation. I think I'll call it William, for no logical reason.

Could it be Billy Bean?

Illogical bean is now pulling the onion to the pole. Nordmann will explain its logic. Neither look too happy, Temp. I have not counselled either - yet.

Someone with a little Greek dictionary kindly look up the meaning of logic etc, please? And from that meaning what the word means in proper usage. I think it has selctive use, mm?

Logikos: Pertaining to reason, pertaining to speech, pertaining to "logos" in several bible translations (and therefore sometimes wrongly adduced to mean "spiritual"). What we need here is ID - where's she gone?

But yes, if words can be used incorrectly in selective circumstances then they can be said to have selective uses. Though whether this is a logical conclusion or not escapes me. In any case I sincerely doubt your runner bean is behaving spiritually.

nordmann wrote:

What we need here is ID - where's she gone?

Queueing at a Greek cashpoint maybe? I wonder how she and her family are doing.

Nah, not queueing at ATMs. But we are doing fine MM, thanks for asking.

Delighted to see you're still around, ID, you've been very quiet for ages. Things there must be very fraught, I often think of you when watching the news. I hope that however this situation pans out, it brings some respite from it all.

Just busy generally ferval, unfortunately history has to take a back seat at the moment. Things are fraught but we've been fraught for 5 years already so nothing has changed in that regard, it is amazing what one gets used to. And, of course, the media are overplaying it all as usual, life does still go on as normal.

Hi ID - yes, your pithy comments have been missed.

Please can you tell us what logikos means? It's a tricky little word! (Tempted to quote me old pal and mentor, Humpty Dumpty, here, but I won't.)