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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 11:05 | |
| Why the apology, Temps? It actually leads into a fresh notion that I have yet to introduce......... thudded body rolls over and whinces sounds coming my way. Let us be our own judges of claptrap and not leave it to another Bishop in this look-see format.
Last edited by Priscilla on Wed 07 Oct 2015, 11:07; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wrongly worded - surprise surprise.) |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 11:41 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- There we go - another great benefit of religions - science spurred on to disprove - or even prove what religions have at their core.
I would agree with that one - though it is really a case of benefit deriving from the victory of intelligence over battiness in a lot of cases. It is true however that the spur to find an intelligent alternative to some of the weirder religious interpretations of reality can indeed be a very strong motivation and the application of rationality rarely brings anything but benefit in its wake. |
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ferval Censura
Posts : 2602 Join date : 2011-12-27
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 12:07 | |
| I'm afraid I will have to concede that at least one of the finest minds conducted his research in order to explain the majesty of what he understood as God's creation - and changed the world.
It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion. And therefore as they would understand the frame of the world must endeavour to reduce their knowledge to all possible simplicity, so must it be in seeking to understand these visions.
Would Newton have achieved what he did without his faith? Who knows but I'll give you that one as an unquestionable benefit, P. |
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Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5037 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 12:11 | |
| - nordmann wrote:
-
- Quote :
The thing about the Big Bang is that it most definitely cannot have been big (quite the opposite in fact) and there was no bang. It's an awful name to have stuck really and deflects completely from the essential core of the model which probably supersedes even its treatment of matter creation - the nature of time itself. I believe the term "Big Bang" was first coined by the astronomer Fred Hoyle when he used it during a 1949 BBC radio broadcast. Since he favoured the alternative "steady state" model for the cosmos, it is likely that his use of "Big Bang" was at least partly perjorative. And of course the "Expanding Universe" model (essentially the Big Bang model) was first proposed by the Belgian physicist, Georges Lemaître, ... who was also an ordained Roman Catholic priest. PS: And ferval's Newton quote is quite akin to the words of St Augustine of Hippo: "Only from order do we get understanding"... which I used on the title page of my thesis about the key role of atomic ordering in controlling the magnetic and mechanical properties of equiatomic iron-cobalt soft-magnetic alloys (although St Augustine was probably thinking about monastic order and quiet contemplation as being conducive to understanding the will of God rather than anything metallurgical). |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 12:58 | |
| Newton's faith in the supernatural arguably hindered as much as helped him, I would say. How much more might he have achieved had he not been sidetracked in his mathematical proofs of natural law by forays into alchemy and a desire to prove a divine perfection detectable in the universe? As a motive it may be assumed to have been a factor in him discovering that which he did, but it was an imperfect motive in that it encouraged him equally to squander his talent on ridiculous pursuits while failing to distinguish between that which was genuine and that which was bogus.
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 13:06 | |
| And as for order and understanding, little wonder Bacon's work is difficult to understand once you have seen his studio. Actually I am a ease with the clutter in my own mind - it's them ovvars wot find it 'ard. But we progress. I sense some sort of truce emerging. My next idea might my clobber that tho. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 13:08 | |
| Cross posts - of course - I ought have expected a kybosh from the north. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 14:13 | |
| I have heard that expression could be derived from "caip báis" (the cap of death) which judges placed on their heads when pronouncing death sentences and which sneaked into English via Irish speaking immigrants in the Seven Dials area of London in the early 19th century. |
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ferval Censura
Posts : 2602 Join date : 2011-12-27
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 14:15 | |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 16:14 | |
| As far as I am concerned it derived from my mum in full flow.
So as we are done with the Big Bang that turns out to be the Tiny Tap with side effects and while Temps is having a Bacon Butty, as the founder member of the Illogical Claptrappers Online Club aka ICON, I had better direct attention in that direction next. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 18:05 | |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 07 Oct 2015, 18:48 | |
| But that would be logical- mmm? Pay attention at the back there! |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 08:28 | |
| - nordmann wrote:
- Emotive choice of diction? Have you read Priscilla's last post where she demands a one paragraph explanation of the origin of the universe? Have you read your own?
Ah, but surely, as foolish, illogical creatures, Priscilla and I are allowed to use emotive language? You, sir, are not. Why am I reminded of the famous exchange between Churchill and Nancy Astor: Lady Nancy Astor: Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea.Churchill: Nancy, if I were your husband, I'd drink it. |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 08:31 | |
| We should hit 6000 views today. Gosh.
Such a good thread, Priscilla. Well done for starting it, you foolish, illogical, irrational thing, you. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 09:08 | |
| - Temperance wrote:
- Ah, but surely, as foolish, illogical creatures, Priscilla and I are allowed to use emotive language? You, sir, are not.
A suspiciously logical statement, I fear. Now I am beginning to wonder how much of the foolishness is actually simply some of Priscilla's wool being pulled over my eyes ... It is indeed a surprisingly popular thread given that as yet, despite the presumption in the title, not one presupposed benefit of religion has been shown to have been simply that at all. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 10:42 | |
| Presupposed? This is a discussion site, surely. Even you have agreed that some suggestions have been beneficial - but like elastic you always spring back to denial and that is expected of you. Isn't there some sort of plastic putty that always reverts back to its original shape? Yet I wonder how it was before packaging and how it could be stopped from reverting to the shape it began as - how was it contained.......... no reply needed that is a P type mental ramble that an illogical mind enjoys.
So to move on.
Among the remains of things handed on from my family ancients long gone are many little religious items. There are crosses, rosaries.....I have a fascinating family history........assorted little symbolic emblems including a 'farthing' with the Lord's Prayer on the reverse side. I'll focus on that. It was, along with a small cross, carried by a soldier into THe Great War. Such talisman abound and were given with love ,hope and faith - and kept as such. Whether or not a benefit, such religious symbolic 'luck' tokens appear to be part of all religions. I think of the many symbols that immediately identify a persuasion.........crosses (they can vary) and crescents are the obvious ones but there are so many others that we can immediately identify - and also there are many 'secret' signs for assorted brotherhoods - I believe there are still many 'Secret Seven sort of organisations for grown up children which have odd religious like ceremony and symbols. People seem to need them. And would the non religious who contribute here ever wilfully defile say -a cross - for instance? Could you? So what is it all about - it must be a benefit otherwise why do so many have them.
Time for Res Hists to let rip again. Get to it. Cross my heart I do my best here. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 11:42 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- Even you have agreed that some suggestions have been beneficial - but like elastic you always spring back to denial and that is expected of you.
I have been in accord about those things - or at least some of them - which are beneficial, not necessarily their presupposed source as stated by you repeatedly. Your comment about respect for fetishes is interesting, though I doubt very much if a psychiatrist might necessarily call such behavoiur beneficial in every instance. Personally I too tend to respect others' fetishes, especially benign ones like rosary beads, crucifixes, used knickers etc, none of which I would arbitrarily defile since those who employ them obviously feel they require them for mental health reasons and who am I to desecrate their fancies or deride their mental aberrations? However in my own instance I can only remember having such an inclination towards animism and imbuement of fetishes with supernatural import back at a time when I was too young and ignorant to know how things really worked. At least those particular things.
Last edited by nordmann on Thu 08 Oct 2015, 11:49; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : "fethish" sounds like a what Kerryman pro-lifer would say) |
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Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5037 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 11:47 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
And would the non religious who contribute here ever wilfully defile say -a cross - for instance? Could you?
Yes ... Clearing out my late father-in-law's house we found a modern wooden crucifix with a hideous carved Christ on it. I'll probably be damned now, even if it is just in most people's eyes, but I threw it on the fire and burned it with barely a second thought. But I have kept his French-language Bible as that does at least have some literary value. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 13:05 | |
| Damned, Mel m? Explain the probability. And you would do well to recall that I am an illogical claptrapper (Ist Order) (With bar) and (Temps) of the sort that gets their Big Bang confused with their Tiny Tap. So try to be clear.,...... not easy here where our leader seems to have a collection of used knickers but I may be wrong. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 13:31 | |
| I am not one for the fetish road, as I explained, so no used knickers in my closet (excepting my own and always washed, if not exactly to Temp's standards regarding wash day apartheid of the undies from the ovies). Or crucifixes with impaled Jesuses (cute or ugly) on them either for that matter. Though I of course respect your right to take whatever road you choose.
There is no problem whatsoever with embracing illogical claptrap - in fact I have often imagined it must afford a tremendously exhilarating sense of liberation from the drudgery of Newtonian, Einsteinian, Darwinian (or for that matter Vulcanian, Iguanian or even Actinian) laws which alas bind us all whether we wish to believe in gravity etc or not. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 14:18 | |
| Indeed illogical claptrap explains northern lights too - perhaps they appear southwhen you're having a bit of a fume. I don't embrace claptrap as you suggest -as I recall you awarded it from your own huge heap of honours and awards to anyone who doesn't see everything the same way as you do - or has the gall to question your view; 'Different windows Different window cleaners' |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 14:29 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- I don't embrace claptrap as you suggest
Actually that was not directed at you, though I can see why you thought so. Especially when you declared yourself one in the previous post without even a hint of sarcasm. However I saw through my glass darkly and acknowledged your innocence in that respect - one thing I have learnt in life is never to confuse an embrace with a Tiny Tap on a cold shoulder. But getting back to the fetishes - how does one "defile" a cross without investing some belief in its animus as a talisman? I can understand defiling someone's regard for the talisman through destroying or defacing it, much as I certainly join in the umbrage felt at the ongoing childish destruction of Palmyra as we speak (by individuals who surely also believe that defiling is what they are up to too). But without that extra investment of faith in an item of stated religious significance it is simply wanton destructive reconfiguration of its elements, only actual defilement to those who choose to see it as such? |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 14:40 | |
| Mention of the cleaning of our Windows and the washing of our smalls (and let us never forget that nordmann's smalls are reputed to be huge - at least that's what he claimed in a rare, unguarded moment some weeks ago) makes me pause for thought again. Here is my latest thought: is cleanliness indeed next to godliness? Have we stumbled upon yet another benefit?
It's an interesting old saying. I looked it up:
CLEANLINESS IS NEXT TO GODLINESS - "This ancient proverb is said by some to have come from ancient Hebrew writings. However, its first appearance in English - though in slightly altered form - seems to be in the writings of Francis Bacon.* In his 'Advancement of Learning' (1605) he wrote: 'Cleanness of body was ever deemed to proceed from a due reverence to God.' Near two centuries later John Wesley in one of his sermons (1791) indicated that the proverb was already well known in the form we use today. Wrote Wesley: 'Slovenliness is no part of religion. Cleanliness is indeed next to Godliness.'" From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). There are a couple more details in "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings" (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996): ".According to the fourteenth edition of 'Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable,' it is an old Hebrew proverb used in the late 2nd century by Rabbi Phinehas ben-Yair. First attested in the United States in the 'Monthly Anthology and Boston Review' (1806). The proverb is found in varying forms."
*Another one! This Francis Bacon was the sensible, tidy and properly organised Francis Bacon. Those dreadful arty types are always chaotic.
I am actually lowering my cleaning standards these days, having watched several series of the delightfully loopy Channel 4 programme, Obsessive Compulsive Cleaners. Thank Heaven I'm not as bad as that girl who has a special vacuum cleaner to vacuum her vacuum cleaner. I do love the germ-testing monitor though - I want one for Christmas - with swabs.
To be sort of serious, religious people - it must be admitted - can exhibit signs of obsessive compulsive disorder - not so much by constant hoovering and bleaching of their loos, but with all that crossing, genuflecting and strict adherence to correct procedure, when such adherence is not really important. Is this mainly a Jewish/Catholic thing? Mind you, the C of E can get its (clean) knickers in a twist over things. I got told off for ironing the communion linen the wrong way - you have to do it in three folds, presumably for the Trinity. I did it in four - all nicely starched, but wrong, and so quite unacceptable. I don't know: what with reading Bishop Spong and now linen irregularities - it's a wonder they allow me near anything holy.
So don't worry, MM: if you are damned, so am I. I'm not sure the Good Lord Himself would give two hoots about your bonfire: there have, after all, been other bonfires in history that I am sure have caused Him more distress. It could be argued that such crosses are graven images anyway. And I live in hope that my ironing errors will not have been noticed, either.
PS I believe in gravity, evolution and God. Is this unusual? I'm sure the Theory of Relativity is correct too, but I don't understand it, so I don't know for sure,
Crossed posts - you two are being deadly serious again, and I'm not. Sorry. Will still send.
Last edited by Temperance on Thu 08 Oct 2015, 16:16; edited 2 times in total |
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Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5037 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 16:05 | |
| Cleanliness? Oh! ... I always thought it was Inverness that was next to Godliness. |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 16:20 | |
| And Moab is My Washpot .
EDIT: Oh Lord - trust The Message translation to come up with an abomination:
8 Moab's a scrub bucket, I mop the floor with Moab... -
Moab and one of those steam cleaners, no doubt. I want one of those for Christmas too - as well as the germ-counting thing.
Where on earth is Moab? |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Thu 08 Oct 2015, 18:48 | |
| Each to her direction. My mind was more centered on the symbolic stuff that abounds - not all fetishes are of religious origin. My mind strays back to that roast bird - why the picture was sent and why it gave offence. Depiction and use of religious symbols by writers - in several faiths that I know of - and likewise, painters, designers, architects, stone masons - embroiderers, and composers have been useful pegs on which to hang notions like a sort of religious shorthand. This is true in ancient paganism as much as it is in any later cult. Few eschu (sp?) them; Islam tries but their Sufic poetry is many layered - and probably why it is outlawed by some sects. Now, what of any benefit then? To creators symbols make life a tad easier...... but what of the many people who wear crosses? I confess I have no idea why or if they think it a benefit. |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 06:56 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- Each to her direction.
Sorry, P., really. I was in a stupid mood yesterday. Sometimes the seriousness, the futility and utter absurdity of it all (the arguing, I mean, not the faith), gets me down. And I've spent a lifetime doing it. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 08:06 | |
| - Temp wrote:
- Where is Moab?
Here. And if it's a sand bath you're after then Moab is a very large washpot indeed. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 08:43 | |
| Priscilla, you have a very valid point about symbolism and symbols in general. They can be dismissed as simply another rather rudimentary form of communication in written or pictorial form but it is also quite obvious that they appeal to humans on a much more fundamental level. Their ability to convey meaning quickly and (in every sense) graphically has definitely become inseparably linked in our psyche with all other external stimuli that can not only convey information quickly to us but even affect our mood, our interpretation of our status within the perceivable universe and - it must be said - through apparent satiation our instinctive requirement to possess through knowledge (a facet of human thinking that is well recognised by those who study the activity of people for whom it backfires or runs out of control).
For these reasons alone it would be simply unthinkable to ever have a religion which does not grant importance to symbols and of course attempt to control their perceived power. However there is a snag with symbolism when religion attempts to control it (as it does all other forms of communication through which concepts and assumed truths are conveyed between people). Basically the more graphic the symbol the less exact its application cognitively when viewed by different individuals. This multi-layerism of the graphic is what makes some visual art great of course, and its enhanced effect and power associated with this quality is a huge factor in how and why particular symbols acquire global popularity and longevity of use, but it is also the same quality that undermines and even exposes as spurious any religion's attempt to portray itself as an ultimate body of truth and wisdom in its own right.
It has never surprised me that iconoclasm and strict controls imposed on visual representation have often been (and amongst Muslims still is) an intrinsic part of that portion of their theology applied to keeping their brand of faith "pure". In many ways - when it comes to religion - this is about as honest an admission as can be found of the innate fear that a faith is not quite the ultimate truth it pretends to be and therefore requires protection from influences which really cannot be controlled to the extent a nervous religion requires. Instead it simply bans the whole medium in so far as it can.
Other religions of course abound in symbolic output, preferring to infer strict interpretation on the approved symbolism used to convey their perceived ethos, and then taking their chances with the consequences. Humans, being humans however, respond to this latitude by promptly coming up with many variant interpretations designed to satisfy other requirements, often but not always conforming to the religion's core demands and, even when they do, displaying wonderful cognitive variation.
So the short of it is that symbolism and religion are indeed entangled, and inextricably so. Religion promotes and acknowledges the power of symbolism and in that sense has been singularly responsible for some of the most potent symbolic imagery with which we are currently familiar. However the real benefit to humanity - if such is to be the term used - is therefore in the fantastic scope of human imagination revealed when religion fails to control the interpretation of that symbolic imagery which it itself has devised and promoted, even with undeniable and immensurate skill.
Last edited by nordmann on Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:04; edited 1 time in total |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 09:55 | |
| Phew - yes -had I the ability this was what I had wanted to express but never could. If for nothing else, this sort of thread eventually gets an in depth response that lights up a dusty corner without chucking a burning brand at it and I thank you for it.
I have a mental cringe whenevr I read or hear of such and such being a symbol of - whatever. The opening of Olympic games comes to mind a I write. And Temp's thought that Jesus may not have been too taken by having a cross as his symbol either. I had never thought of that before.
Like it or not , tho, symbols are pretty powerful - that Hindu symbol of good luck - now called a swastika, for instance, that one speaks volumes. In fact symbols came before written language and are worth a separate thread to explore - anyone feeling up to that? |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:08 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- Like it or not , tho, symbols are pretty powerful - that Hindu symbol of good luck - now called a swastika, for instance, that one speaks volumes.
Though the contents of the volumes expressed differ wildly - consider a modern neo-Nazi with a 1930s German Jew regarding the same symbol. And there are so many such striking examples. Even the crucifix (especially the crucifix) is not immune, as can be exemplified by comparing, for example, its ornately gilded representation on the wall of a Greek Orthodox chapel with the burning version of it placed by the Ku Klux Klan outside the home of an African American (to list just two of the by now countless examples that could have been used). The root of the symbol is common, as are its essential elements, but where both parties have gone with their interpretations could not be further apart. |
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ferval Censura
Posts : 2602 Join date : 2011-12-27
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 10:12 | |
| Priscilla, nordmann's post spared you having to read through a pile of stuff from me about the pre-frontal cortex, symbolic thought and external symbolic storage, be grateful. Just let me say that symbols, mental as in language and in their concrete materialisation are intrinsic to everything we regard as being human.
Can I comment though on a couple of things you wrote: your question about 'defiling a cross'. That in itself exemplifies what nordmann has written. A cross being no more than a shape, it would only be possible to 'defile' it if one both understood and respected all associations that are implicit in that symbol
You also said that you don't understand what benefit people think they derive from wearing crosses. That is disingenuous, of course you do. Start making a list, it will take you some time. I'll start you off with a big one:
Identity
Another post I see, I'll post this and then read it. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 11:04 | |
| No, ferv I don't understand. In my town crosses being worn as earrings by the bald forehead and pencil thin eyebrow lot is very common. So what identity am I supposed to deduce from that? Then there are the heavies in cargo shorts - and a lot of cargo all over - wearing crosses on chains over their tee shirts at raised beer can level..... often with a large lady as in sentence one wearing similar. In my mind they are identified as just ' You know, those sort of people who wear gold crosses.' But honest, ferv, I don't know why they do. I've wanted to ask those known to me but somehow can't. I know they are not religious people so it would sound like an intrusive probe of some kind - which in fact it would be. You'll have to spell it out for me...... start a new thread. Pre-frontal symbolic thought intrigues! I don't think I have ever had that - I'll ask nurse. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 11:14 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- So what identity am I supposed to deduce from that?
It's not about which identity you deduce when observing them, it's all about the one they assume they are exhibiting and of which their use of the totem is symbolic. When you think about it this is the same whether one talks about a religious identity or not. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 11:27 | |
| But what is it about - as a totem, even? Nurse doesn't know either. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 11:34 | |
| I have exactly the same problem when a religious person points me to their favourite totem. Not being part of the club it is rather difficult to know which interpretation they themselves have put on it. I might think, for example, that I know the significance of a Lady of Mount Carmel brown scapular, and I might even know all the many rules around its use as I was obliged to learn them as part of what was my so-called education as a young child, but I am still taken aback when (as happened recently) I was assured by a well-meaning sod that I should consider wearing one myself bcause - he assured me - to do so means you know you never will die from being hanged.
How can one pre-guess such interpretation? I find it's better not to - for any of the symbols so meaningful to so many (and in so many often contradictory ways). You can see also why, of all your suggestions to date regarding benefit accrued from religious sources, symbolism is probably in fact the least valid candidate. At least to non members. |
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ferval Censura
Posts : 2602 Join date : 2011-12-27
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 12:25 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- No, ferv I don't understand. In my town crosses being worn as earrings by the bald forehead and pencil thin eyebrow lot is very common. So what identity am I supposed to deduce from that? Then there are the heavies in cargo shorts - and a lot of cargo all over - wearing crosses on chains over their tee shirts at raised beer can level..... often with a large lady as in sentence one wearing similar. In my mind they are identified as just ' You know, those sort of people who wear gold crosses.' But honest, ferv, I don't know why they do. I've wanted to ask those known to me but somehow can't. I know they are not religious people so it would sound like an intrusive probe of some kind - which in fact it would be. You'll have to spell it out for me...... start a new thread. Pre-frontal symbolic thought intrigues! I don't think I have ever had that - I'll ask nurse.
Why do countries have a flag, clubs have a badge, old schools have a tie, MacDonald's have a golden arch? I have a lovely little gold pendant that is a calligraphic interpretation of the name of Allah. To me it is a beautiful and artistic piece of jewellery and also a memento of where and when I bought it, to a Muslim it carries entirely different meaning and to some my wearing it would be blasphemous so I'm sensitive about where and when I do. The cross is the same and can be worn worn as a membership badge, a totem, a message. an affirmation, a challenge, from nostalgia or just as an ornament devoid of meaning and many more reasons. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 13:22 | |
| Ah! Dangerous ground stuff, wearing other religions symbols. As when today's children draw swastikas because of its interesting and easy shape and has a warlike thing about it.
What has not been mention is the 'good luck' associated with such symbols - and still unsure if nordmann will be hanged or not.
People make symbolic gestures and wear religious tokens when they try to summon up luck -or help. That's why I assumed it could be considered a benefit. To some it is - whatever the outcome. In the east omens of many kinds have religious meaning to some. The Greeks were hot on omens as were the Etruscans - even more so, Etruscans, and all were religious based. So, do not sweep it aside as irrelevant perhaps. Disingenuous, clap trapper that I am. Nurse! I'm also getting irrelevant they say. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 13:32 | |
| - Priscilla wrote:
- People make symbolic gestures and wear religious tokens when they try to summon up luck -or help.
And there's the rub. While there is no denying that wishful thinking can actually have a positive impact on things due to its innate optimism it is equally true that when such gestures prove futile in the face of reality the resulting lesson can be more than the ex-optimist sometimes can stand to bear. As a "benefit" therefore this application should really come with a slew of government mental health warnings on the package. "Irrelevant" it most surely isn't. It's just not necessarily how you are inclined to portray it. At least not to a person less inclined to boggling (and other non-reality related cranial activities). PS: The scapular could well be used by a person with an irrational fear of death by hanging and, while on his deathbed expiring through a non-hanging related condition, he might well deduce therefore that it worked. But it didn't demonstrably "work" at all. Personally I'm going to take my chances without Our Lady of Mount Carmel around my throat. It makes showering easier. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Fri 09 Oct 2015, 16:20 | |
| Not all religious bodies use symbols of any kind - and was surely part of the Reformation movement to contain. If not the symbol, objects having holy significance The Church of Scotland, I think uses very few symbols and The Society of Friends - Quakers - use none. Not oats remarks, please!
Tribal religions appear to have many and weaning away from such objects is not easy. There seems to be an underworld of symbols that continues despite a move to stop the use. Communist Russia had a go at this. I admit surprise at how quickly that changed as the Red flag regimes fell. The hold seems deep. But have the young raised in other climes taken up the old ways? I really do not know. Home influence can be very strong. |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 09:57 | |
| Priscilla, I have just sent you an Email, but could not make these images appear. The route to salvation, via Lakeland: "on my fourth tube!" Nancy Harridge29 April 2013 |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:29 | |
| Amaasing Grace time - I got the second e-mail too. What a relief! Maybe church linen should be folded in 4 - to get a real blessing, after all! |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 10:38 | |
| I'm going to ask for the picture of my brain. I want to post it here - just to prove to nordmann that I've got one! Right, back to being serious now - the thread moved on yesterday. Interesting stuff about symbols. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 12:49 | |
| A benefit that many make use of is prayer. When there is nothing that one can do in a situation there is comfort in praying - not expecting a miracle - just to concentrate one's heartfelt compassion. Silent prayer that blocks out all other thought is sometimes all one can do. And it helps. Many will admit to doing it not only in hope of redress but as an act of shared compassion. others with no beliefs and who do not do this must have other ways. I suppose it also brings solace but to most I suggest that a religious method is more usually adopted. |
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Temperance Virgo Vestalis Maxima
Posts : 6895 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 13:55 | |
| This makes sense to me: Prayer is being present, sharing love, opening life to transcendence. It is not necessarily words addressed heavenwards. Perhaps that is the clue to what our ancestors thought were specific answered prayers. Perhaps we human beings are more psychically connected than we have ever imagined. Perhaps positive thoughts and the release of the energy of concern does flow on networks we do not - at present - understand, affecting the life of another. These transformations seem miraculous only inside our limited knowledge. All I know is that it is natural to reach out, to love, and to care for others, and inevitably we feel compelled to give verbal expression to those aspects of our lives.Maybe the presence of God in our lives is a simply being a caring, loving humanist. I actually don't have any problem with that. Should I have? Funnily enough I drove a friend - a usually rather militant atheist - to hospital in Plymouth yesterday. She is having major surgery on her back and she may wake up unable to walk again. I went in with her to see the consultant who is operating on her today, and we had a really interesting conversation. My friend had taken a book for him - Do No Harm by Henry Marsh - and I mentioned the bit quoted below. http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/19/do-no-harm-brain-surgery-henry-marsh-review"What could be finer, I thought, than to be a neurosurgeon?" he writes. "The operation involved the brain, the mysterious substrate of all thought and feeling, of all that was important in human life – a mystery, it seemed to me, as great as the stars at night and the universe around us." The wonder doesn't leave him: decades later, separating two lobes at the back of the brain, he reveals the pineal gland, which Descartes believed to be the seat of the soul. It is "a secret and mysterious area where all the most vital functions that keep us conscious and alive are to be found. Above me, like the great arches of a cathedral roof, are the deep veins of the brain … this is anatomy that inspires awe in neurosurgeons."The surgeon told us he was an atheist like my friend, and that he had actually given up brain surgery (like you do) because the spine is much more interesting - "and fragile" - whatever Marsh (or Descartes) may think: we all laughed when he remarked that what would be important today would not be God, but his remembering to take the correct screwdriver in with him for the operation. I countered by saying I would be praying he did - and that he remembers to have it sterilized. My friend has, though, told me that she is enormously grateful that people are praying for her, atheist as she is. The knowledge has given her some comfort, has indeed been of benefit. It is all about shared compassion, as you say. I, too, am grateful for prayer as a manifestation of care. It is most definitely not to be pooh-poohed. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sat 10 Oct 2015, 15:49 | |
| Since you guys are intent on repeating yourselves then so will I. - Nordmann, PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Wed 30 Sep 2015, 11:09 wrote:
- The psychological benefit derived from issuing entreaties, oaths, wishes and curses into the ether is undeniable. I do it myself often - especially in the face of facetiousness (please note). Shared compassion is also an admirable human quality. However none of this was originated by religion - and in fact when religions have absorbed this activity and claimed it as their own they have actually done their level best to rather ruin the whole effect by imposing a code and method on how it "should" be done. If you need a religious code to phrase a prayer then I would suggest that you're missing out on something and your religion has in fact detracted from the beautiful spontaneity which is your inheritance as a human being.
PS: On the other hand there is the comfort of reciting litany etched into one's brain through familiarity and repeated use. Again not something originated by religion and the benefit of which is not peculiar only to religious cant. This however is also classed as prayer by religions, but really differs from other well-loved and much used recitation only in the false claim that there is a supernatural entity listening to it.
My best wishes for your friend also, Temp. It is heartening when you know that others are thinking about you in your dilemmas and crises. Shared compassion is indeed a magnificent human trait, even if a religious person has been conditioned to call it prayer and bring a deity into the equation it is still a nice gesture to be at the receiving end of. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sun 11 Oct 2015, 21:39 | |
| Before I head on to another facet to consider there is one that you can all agree on. Changed in origin tho it may - and not all starting at the same time - let's hear it folks for the glorious, the wonderful, the great - 'Le Weekend!'' A brief history of it is inviting - not from me - and a glance about its adoption in many lands - so come on guys I give you, The Weekend!' and as not one given to liking or using these silly picto things you surely get my point and opinion.... and of course, ferv, people would have invented it in time without religion but I am not aware of it in emerging cultures. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Sun 11 Oct 2015, 22:01 | |
| You're not familiar with Norse days then - Saturday here is still called lørdag since ancient times (lördag in Swedish), "lør" being a bath, believe it or not. This was not a day for toil, but for cleansing (the bathing element seems to have had no religious significance of any description but was just that, a day for cleaning yourself and the kids). Sunday was also a day off for many, reserved for tingmøter (local council meetings). They had no day of worship for the gods in their pantheon or feast days either, not even special ones dotted sporadically through the year. So in fact the pagan Scandinavians had a two day weekend secularly decided where people could relax from heavy toil long before their Christian fellows, who only managed to come up with two whole consecutive days every week free from (most) work in the living memory of some people still alive. They also by all accounts had boozy weekends too, so No wonder Christians were inclined to follow their lead (originally Christianity adopted the Roman day/week system, which allowed no weekly break but incorporated longer ones every few months). Up to the growing popularity of the North European/Scandinavian model even Sunday didn't excuse people from work, only obligated them to attend communal worship, and remember that Sunday as the designated "sabbath" only became agreed for everybody in 336CE. Up to then the whole weekly worship thing had been very fluid indeed with different regions and sects doing their own thing. So no, the common "weekend" did not have a religious origin. As usual religion simply adopted something that people were doing anyway and were not likely to give up just because some bloke in a long skirt told them that the Jews or the Romans hadn't heard of it so it wasn't on anymore. Religion is good at knowing when it's beaten and then just pretending to have thought the innovation up itself. Weekends as we understand them really grew in popularity during the growth of urban populations in the medieval period and became even more recognisable in the industrial age and later. Commerce rather than religion drove the trend. And of course the fact that it was a very good idea these ancient Scandinavians had come up with, as everybody soon tended to agree - even the god botherers. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Mon 12 Oct 2015, 06:35 | |
| Would the Scandinavian bath day have happened before Moses came up with union rules re God's down tooling one day a week? Surely that was a major beginning of a designated work free day - and a religious one and a benefit? I suggest that the Jewish lead of more impact than either Roman or Scandinavia in this respect.
Origins aside, the day off was surely a benefit to the labouring many in more recent times - from Sunday Best to Sunday Roast and using the Sunday Parlour - all common in my memory. Around here Sunday Calling was another pleasure in the rural areas - often by horse and cart and with the visitors taking food for tea with them. I do not think this was instituted by the Vikings - who did come a-calling from time time to time some time back, no food, robbing the mint and beheading the local leader being more in their style. And not choosey about the day - or as far as is recorded not stopping for a bath before or after or during. Records are thin in this respect so I may be wrong.
I stand by my claim; religion kick started the wider enjoyment of the weekend. |
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nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Mon 12 Oct 2015, 07:22 | |
| No one said the Vikings spread the weekend wherever they went. By all accounts it was the other crowd's expansion that brought them into contact with North European and Scandinavian cultures, people who already had the principle well established, that forced the religious authorities to acknowledge it, at least in those lands.
And nor can the Jewish strictures on observing the sabbath be held up as a precursor. They were so stringent that following the rules caused even more hardship than any demand to toil could ever have done, as famously referred to critically by a rather famous rabbi with whom you may be familiar.
Your own observation that a particular religion promoted the popularity of certain social activities associated with Sunday in particular societies is of course very true - but that's a far cry from saying that religion had originated or even delivered a benefit. If anything it was (as usual) attempting to "own" the benefit - one that had been arrived at within both overtly religious and overtly secular societies in different ways at different times already and its institution and development reflect these societies' economic, labour and legal evolution over the centuries more than any religious development in the corresponding period. So, while you may feel very secure standing beside your claim, I am afraid it's one that won't help you much should you encounter an actual fact in a dark alley some night.
PS: You also realise of course that "the Vikings" represent a period of about two centuries in the early medieval period and that people were living in northern climes a LOT longer than that? And also that Christianity had encountered northern social mores almost from the moment it became synonymous with Roman hegemony?
I reckon it might be an idea to move stealthily away from this particular dead horse before the RSPCA find you in the vicinity, and move on to that other "benefit" you referred to above which you have yet to mention. I can hardly wait. |
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Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2753 Join date : 2012-01-16
| Subject: Re: Religions - The Benefits Mon 12 Oct 2015, 08:32 | |
| Nope. Keeping the Vikings out of this - tho on reflection they benefitted a great deal from religion. I assume easy pickings from unprotected religious establishments had to benefit someone in those oh such steam-cleaned, northern climes, the benefits of religious Sunday days off are up for discussion, non religious origins are not. That well known rabbi also had a go about over zealous religious observance - so having a good time is not ruled out. And having a good time on Sunday is now the mode with Saturday as a modern development tacked on. Hereabouts the pattern has changed from being a quite day after church. Church attendance tho is quite popular - we have 14 assorted places of worship for circa 16000 at latest head-count - and all attended. Following church its a stroll to the local shops, walk the dog in the park, eat out, then jolly off in the car to a local function - usually in a muddy field. Many of course leave out the church bit and have a lie in but the day for most seems to end in a muddy field somewhere during spring. summer and autumn. No dead horse about it here. I still maintain it is a benefit derived from religion - go - convolute something else. |
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