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 The Star of Bethlehem

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 13:23

I used to live in Regensburg - he's something of a local hero in that town and is considered top guy in the Danube School of Renaissance painting.

That peculiar orb in the heavens in his painting is normally interpreted as the moon, believe it or not, and it's praised as a good example of his skill in depicting night-time moonlit subjects.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 13:54

On the subject of allegory, Temp, you might be interested in the Byzantine take artistically on the whole "star" thing. The 4th century archbishop of Constantinople and theologian John Chrysostom decided that the "star" was in fact a sort of holy palace official, as there patently wasn't any known heavenly body that could move about the sky as described, nor end up pin-pointing a cave or stable as in the story (clever lot in Byzantium). Byzantine art therefore often represented the "Star of Bethlehem" as a man, or sometimes as an angel holding a bright light in his/her hands. I am assuming on that basis that the BBC will find it tough to sell the Christmas edition of The Sky At Night to Russian or Greek TV channels.

It is however also worth noting that in terms of cultural, literary and religious continuity of style and beliefs John was a hell of a lot closer to the author of Matthew than any of the bods in Rome. So that probably adds a little oomph to your Matt the Poet theory!
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 14:10

Unless it was UFO;

The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 Magiufolight650
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 14:43



I bet nordmann  will love this - especially the pictures.

But perhaps this is more relevant today, Trike.






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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 14:48

Surely Bowie's song about Balthazar was more relevant?

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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 14:54





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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 11 Jan 2016, 15:45

nordmann wrote:
On the subject of allegory, Temp, you might be interested in the Byzantine take artistically on the whole "star" thing. The 4th century archbishop of Constantinople and theologian John Chrysostom decided that the "star" was in fact a sort of holy palace official, as there patently wasn't any known heavenly body that could move about the sky as described, nor end up pin-pointing a cave or stable as in the story (clever lot in Byzantium). Byzantine art therefore often represented the "Star of Bethlehem" as a man, or sometimes as an angel holding a bright light in his/her hands. I am assuming on that basis that the BBC will find it tough to sell the Christmas edition of The Sky At Night to Russian or Greek TV channels.

It is however also worth noting that in terms of cultural, literary and religious continuity of style and beliefs John was a hell of a lot closer to the author of Matthew than any of the bods in Rome. So that probably adds a little oomph to your Matt the Poet theory!



Thank you, nordmann. This will keep me quiet for a bit.  study


http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/john_chrysostom_homily_vi_on_matthew_2.htm


PS Anyone who said this can't have been a total idiot.

"Do you pay such honour to your excrements as to receive them into a silver chamber-pot when another man made in the image of God is perishing in the cold?"
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 12 Jan 2016, 07:57

PS The Prayer of Saint Chrysostom is still in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer - Evensong. I've tried to find it in Merbecke's settings, but I can't:

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Merbecke/Merbecke.htm

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Merbecke/Merbecke_Evensong1.htm


A Prayer of Saint Chrysostom.

Almighty God, who hast given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplications unto thee; and dost promise that when two or three are gathered together in thy Name thou wilt grant their requests: Fulfil now, O Lord, the desires and petitions of thy servants, as may be most expedient for them; granting us in this world knowledge of thy truth, and in the world to come life everlasting. Amen.


You have to smile at the "most expedient" bit. Very Cranmer. Not surprising he considered this saint's prayer as suitable for inclusion in the BCP.


From what I've been reading, Chrysostom did not like the allegorical approach much - wasn't that the School of Alexandria? I think John C. favoured straightforward interpretation - so as not to cause confusion - but I haven't really read enough to comment.

But I'm sure these days no one cares very much either way.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 12 Jan 2016, 09:16

It's all relative. What was "straightforward" to John Chrysostom would be allegory in the extreme to a sane logician. But yes, as a Byzantian of the period he would have been deeply conscious of the fact that there were always a dozen philosophers lurking round each street corner in Constantinople who would pounce on anything he said as a solipsism so, like a lot of his Christian contemporaries in the area, he liked to try to keep himself grounded in the observable universe. A lot of what he and others wrote therefore actually comes across as quite "modern", at least in so far as it (sometimes tortuously) tries to relate metaphysics and religious morality to concrete examples understandable to the audience.

However he would also have been quite comfortable with Matthew's allegory, if that is what it was. Especially as his favorite book of scripture actually reads like an allegory primer in the run-up to Matthew's own contribution. By the time one gets to the Star of Bethlehem if one hasn't twigged that stars symbolise knowledge in Judaeo-Christian double-speak then one shouldn't really be in the Archbishop of Constantinople business.

And on that note: it is also Matthew who provides us with the most graphic doomsday scenario related to the events immediately preceding the "second coming" (something Matthew probably reckoned was imminent but which John Chrysostom had probably figured might itself be allegorical or at least a bit of a way off). When one accepts the standard Christian double-speak rules of "sun = love/goodness", "moon = charity/truth" and "stars = knowledge/learning" then Matthew's "Immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" carried a double threat for the likes of John. Natural disasters aside, society was heading for a situation where the fruits of wisdom, altruism and education were suddenly going to count for naught.

After watching the dumbed down "Sky At Night" programme - which when compared to other current BBC output these days actually appears erudite - who's to say Matt didn't have a point, whatever about what he hoped might save us from such a doom?
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 12 Jan 2016, 09:35

I feel very ignorant - really.

But I shall continue reading...
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 12 Jan 2016, 14:13

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, the Census of the Luke Gospel was carried out in 6AD by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Legate of Syria.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 12 Jan 2016, 14:42

I'm afraid Luke got it all wrong, Trike - the history, that is. Back later to explain.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 14 Jan 2016, 14:35

Should I have a little rabbit on about Saint Luke and his wonky dates/knowledge of the Roman taxation system or not? Don't know whether to bother or not. Is anyone really interested?

A friend has commented that my posting such stuff on this site has Cerberus (an image for our leader, I'm afraid) salivating eagerly as he contemplates his next meal. She thinks, I suspect, that my attempt at arguing is a bit like approaching the hound from Hades suggesting "walkies".

We do know Herod died in 4BCE, I believe - eclipse of the moon or something? Can this be verified before I add anything? Or is such an eclipse another figment?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 14 Jan 2016, 16:09

And here's another bone for Pluto........ at what point in the extensive Jewish Chronicles were Christians mentioned? Genuine curiosity, honest - no irksome trick wire intended. (One has to be soooo careful.)

And, while I am ploughing on, why were the gospels written? Ancient spin? Hope of heavenly upgrade? What was the point of all this recording - pretty long lasting spin - you must allow that. And very clever if not being in sync was part of a ploy.

Walkies anyone? (Oh Temps, I do like that!)
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 14 Jan 2016, 16:21

Temperance wrote:
Should I have a little rabbit on about Saint Luke and his wonky dates/knowledge of the Roman taxation system or not? Don't know whether to bother or not. Is anyone really interested?

Go for it, Temp;

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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 14 Jan 2016, 20:53

I like the stripy rabbit, Trike. Looks like a determined little critter to me.

Too tired to rabbit on tonight and have a gruelling day coming up tomorrow: will "go for it" at the weekend - maybe.


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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyFri 15 Jan 2016, 12:39

Whenever you feel like it, Temp. no rush.

Going by the blurb on the photo, the stripy bunny is an Eastern Cottontail ( American)
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 16 Jan 2016, 08:36

Triceratops wrote:
Whenever you feel like it, Temp. no rush.


Oh dear, you make me feel like Captain Oates, Trike, listening to his friends' response to the comment that his return to the tent may take "some time".

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 16 Jan 2016, 15:55

Nothing so far about Jewish records and Christians, then. If there is no record of them - and there have been a fair enough number of them knocking about for quite a while, then the lack of sky signs of any sort cannot be proof that there were none at about the time of this discussion. If ancient astronomers had related something as the advent of a new king it is possible that there was selective recording - or perhaps later doctoring. The matter of proving something  against a breadth of records is not always totally reliable, surely - especially when it might rock the house boat.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 14:12

And yet the story doesn't include that Herod tried to suppress the astrology. Instead he goes with it and on that basis embarks on a peculiarly biblical version of a delayed abortion social policy.

In fact I am racking my brain trying to think of a single historical instance of astrological/astronomical records being obviously suppressed and can't think of one outside of the Christian authorities' own attempt later to effectively silence those astronomers who dared suggest through scientific observation and rational theses based on such observations that perhaps the whole thing wasn't really to do with divine predictions, theological absurdities and astrological chicanery at all.

Priscilla wrote:
then the lack of sky signs of any sort cannot be proof that there were none at about the time of this discussion

The lack of pink elephants recorded at the time cannot be proof that they are not germane to the discussion either, then? Anyway, as the Sky At Night programme demonstrated, celestial activity at the time can, up to a point, be rather accurately calculated, and even those events for which calculations are most reliable can be shoe-horned into the story as possible basis for assumption regarding the so-called Star of Bethlehem, if only badly so. What cannot be adequately accounted for at all however is the apparently unique astrological interpretation as suggested in the story and which seemingly both the peripatetic astrologers and the local royals shared (but seemingly no one else at the time), let alone what event they were supposedly interpreting.

Even as allegory it could have been written with a bit more literary (if not astronomical) intelligence, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 15:21

Why was it all written in the first place? Surely not with literary intelligence in mind. And just because I am curious - does anyone have any ref about when Christians were ever mentioned in their histories of the time? A close, Jewish friend - and a well known and rather cynical  reporter of his day - said he could not find reference to events of the crucifixion. I wish I had asked more at the time. We fought constant battles  about almost everything and remained very good friends throughout - tho his requesting an orthodox funeral came as a surprise. 
Pink elephants? What was that about?  As for suppression, if it is well done then there would be no record, would there?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 15:33

Priscilla wrote:
Why was it all written in the first place? Surely not with literary intelligence in mind.

Good question, as even in the narrow but relevant context of the approved gospels the account is still in a minority of one regarding narrators. I suspect the answer therefore is to be found in the intended readership of the account, not the alleged history or indeed astronomy behind it (which are both so patently suspect).

Priscilla wrote:
And just because I am curious - does anyone have any ref about when Christians were ever mentioned in their histories of the time?

Who do you mean by "their" and which "time"? There were no "Christians" to write any history - good or bad - until the term was later coined and the distinction between them and their Jewish parent religion was understood and accepted. The coining of the term itself post-dates the scripture compromising the New Testamant, even allowing for all the theories regarding when these were written. So it is not surprising that the collective term is absent from both the scripture and the more reliable histories of the day.

Priscilla wrote:
Pink elephants? What was that about? As for suppression, if it is well done then there would be no record, would there?

You get my point, then.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 15:46

Temps says the word Christian is used three times in the N.T. She won't be around here for a while but I'll ask. I meant Jewish histories/records/whatever. There is ref to Essenes so my pal told me.

I got no point about elephants whatsoever apart from the remark being a rather barbed put down in the sort of crude humour that you brand me elsewhere.
Would you rather I did not post? Am I not worthy enough?
Before you press for this, what on earth is that minority of one stuff on about? Literary clarity would help.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:02

Priscilla wrote:
what on earth is that minority of one stuff on about? Literary clarity would help

Matthew's account is the only one I am aware of mentioning the incidents under discussion. Or have you extended the subject now beyond the Star of Bethlehem? If so, forgive me if I refrain from joining you.

Except to say that I agree the term Christian is confusing regarding its antiquity and semantic application. The term Christ is easier to pin-point historically and philologically. The collective derivation applied to a group of believers in such a figure and sharing a common ethos however is more difficult, and in terms of its semantic meaning today demonstrably one that took several centuries to narrow down.

The claim that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (or indeed evidence of successful suppression) is what links pink elephants to stellar events of the period.

Priscilla wrote:
Would you rather I did not post? Am I not worthy enough?

No, and I really am not positioned to reply (in that order).
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:21

Until you are sitting more comfortably enough to make reply, I shall go on for a bit longer. (Where could you be sitting, we must all be wondering.)

The posts above had moved on a tad when Trike mentioned St Luke - and Temps wanted to contribute something on him. I was marking time a bit until she was able to do so.......delightfully little rabbit is the marker. So I asked about the gospel writers..... there might be someone else with knowledge... or the courage of opinion to make reply. You came back and stayed on the star loop...... do keep up.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:23

Forgive me for not digressing Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:26

One is reminded of dormice and treacle wells; how's that for a disgression?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:33

It is indeed an impressive one. I am sincerely hoping however you are not claiming that their absence from the historical record of the period is down to subsequent suppression by anti-Christian forces.

However you are right to bring Alice into this. And taking her lead I shall emulate her while you all go off on a tangent together ...

This answer so confused poor Alice, that she let the Dormouse go on for some time without interrupting it.

Wise Alice.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:41

Ah! so it's interruption that brings out the elephants in you. Pardon me for breathin, as they say. And tangents are always at RIGHT angles to the core point.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 17 Jan 2016, 16:48

No, it is informal fallacies that tend to do it. Like argumenti ad ignorantiam or tangents being at right angles etc.

Wise, wise, Alice.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 18 Jan 2016, 15:24

Informal fallacies?  Like what? You brought up tangents. In many threads digressions that are loosely relative to the subject are  somewhat like circles within circles and accepted. If it suits you to mention tangent then also apply the single tangent to the internal circle guff on tangents...... which is always at right angles to the radius of both circles. And that is about as far as my memory goes on tangents....... a most interesting aspect of maths..... said Alice. And along with her argumenti ad ignorantiam, she also said that they are changing guard, so I think it is time I brought out the lead, eh Temps?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 18 Jan 2016, 20:39

Priscilla wrote:
 

Informal fallacies?  Like what?


Thinking you could get away with not having a bespangled ballgown? Nothing worse than getting the formal dress code wrong on a posh cruise ship. I did. My attire on "formal nights" was sadly fallacious - fallaciously informal in fact. I thought you couldn't go wrong with a little black dress. Oh, but you can.

Is "I like what I wear and I wear what I like" an informal fallacy? Possibly. I'm really not sure. But then logic doesn't agree with me and I don't agree with it.

I am very fond of the illogical dormouse. How nasty the others were to him, pinching the little creature while he sang in his sleep.

I wonder what the Greek for "tea tray" is? Perhaps I should rename the thread The Little Bat of Bethlehem.


I'm reading Rowan Williams on Saint Paul at the moment. Some interesting comments from this rather intelligent and well-informed man about slavery/the class system in the Roman Empire and the revolutionary ideas of Jesus which Paul developed. You were wrong about Jesus of Nazareth not being a revolutionary, nordmann - more on this tomorrow perhaps, but not on this thread.


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Oh dear, I must confess to thinking ungodly thoughts about what a joy it would be to stuff nordmann into a teapot.

EDIT: Only joking, sir!


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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 19 Jan 2016, 14:51

This is another astronomical event which influenced ( reputedly) the development of Christianity.

Constantine's vision prior to the Battle of the Milvian Bridge;

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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 19 Jan 2016, 15:10

Indeed ... see my post of 3 Jan 2016, on this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 19 Jan 2016, 15:15

Here is MM's post:


Meles meles wrote:
Another "omen in the sky" often thought to have been parhelia, was that observed by Constantine on 28 October 312 just before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge which led to him adopting a cross as his symbol. As Eusebius (Life of Constantine XXIX) says: "He said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens, above the sun, and bearing the inscription, 'In Hoc Signo Vinces' - with this sign, you will conquer. At this sight he himself was struck with amazement, and his whole army also, which followed him on this expedition, and witnessed the miracle."

But it's also been speculated that Constantine's omen might have been a very large meteorite, possibly that which impacted about 100km away to form the Sirente crater (although it's not even established that this crater was formed by a meteor impact). Interestingly, bearing in mind the omen's influence on Constantine's adoption of Christianity, there is a local oral tradition in the Abruzzo region about the formation of the Sirente lake and the region's conversion from Paganism to Christianity (which happened in the 4th century AD) which describes what might be a large meteor impact. A version of the folk-tale is recorded as follows:

"It was in the afternoon...an uproar hit the mountain and quartered the giant oaks announcing the violent arrival of the Goddess. A sudden and intense heat overwhelmed the people and a shout echoed all around, splitting the air with its trail of violence. All of a sudden, over there, in the distance, in the sky, a new star, never seen before, bigger than the other ones, came nearer and nearer, appeared and disappeared behind the top of the eastern mountains. Peoples’ eyes looked at the strange light growing bigger and bigger. Soon the star shone as large as a new sun. An irresistible, dazzling light pervaded the sky. The oak leaves shuddered, discoloured, and curled up. The forest lost its sap.

The Sirente was shaking. In a tremendous rumble the statue sank into a sudden chasm. The satyrs and the Bacchantes fell down senseless. A huge silence fell. It seemed as if time had stopped in the ancient wood near the temple at the foot of the Sirente, and it looked like the mountain had never existed. The entire valley became dumb. Not a breath of wind could be heard, nor a sheep bleating from the numerous herds, nor a rustle from the strong trees, nor a human sound. After an endless period of time, when stars shone in the sky without the moon, a new breeze came to stir the leaves; sheep were heard again and the Mountain was dressed in the light of a new dawn.

Faint stars disappeared, blue sky slowly came back and the Sirente became a golden mountain in the first rays of the new sun. It looked like the Valley was full of roses. Newly awake, men listened closely to the death rattle of the Goddess at the foot of the wood; and then they saw the statue of the Madonna with the Holy Child in her arms who was sitting on a throne of light and was surrounded by light."

If the Sirente crater and lake were formed by a meteorite, it has been estimated that it would have needed to have impacted with a force similar to that of a small nuclear bomb. It would have appeared as a fireball streaking across the sky to be followed by a massive flash and shockwave, then a rising glowing mushroom cloud of debris, all clearly visible from at least 100km away. Furthermore archaeological investigations have indicated that a Roman village just a few km from the Sirente lake had been abandoned sometime in the 4th century, with mass graves seeming to indicate that the region had experienced some major calamity.

But of course all this is just speculation. These events may not be related to each other nor even have occurred in this way.

Trike's picture above from Look and Learn unfortunately lends itself to a caption. I, however, shall not offer one today.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 23 Jan 2016, 17:55

Since there is possibly another planet in our little solar system, I think i fair to comment that we do not know every thing yet about what might be or has been in the sky, do we? Meteors might also well be an option to consider.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 23 Jan 2016, 18:39

The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 Neil-deGrasse-Facepalm-via-screencap-800x430
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 23 Jan 2016, 18:58

Er - does that signify war or peace?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySun 24 Jan 2016, 12:01

I think nordmann has a begrudging admiration for the way you and I, despite - or should that be rather thanks to - our lack of mastery of consecutive logic, have raised the wild non sequitur almost to the level of a dialectical method.

Smile

I've forgotten what we are arguing about to be honest.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 28 Jan 2016, 17:03

'I miss Patrick Moore. One Christmas, in response to a letter from a viewer, he just dismissed the whole thing as pointless in his opening remark on the programme and then hastily moved on to more germane matters regarding Mariner 4, a jolly little probe which had done some sterling work advancing humanity (we all thought) away from a reliance on uneducated and superstitious bunkum, and which had sadly "died" the day before.'

From my memory Patrick Moore did do a programme on the Star of Bethlehem back in the days of Black and White TV and probably when Nordmann  was still residing in the Republic.  In it I believe that Moore plumped for 2 comets.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 28 Jan 2016, 17:21

Temperance wrote:


Patrick Moore appears in my Christmas Special: an old clip from the Sky At Night, about 33 minutes into the programme. He is described as "a reluctant champion" of the meteor - or rather two meteors - theory of our Wondrous Star.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06t3wst/the-sky-at-night-the-real-star-of-bethlehem-a-christmas-special

Have you actually watched the programme, nordmann? Should we not keep open minds about these things? Or is that merely an indication of an unfortunate tendency to "wildness"?

First huff of 2016, everyone.  Cheers

Smile



I had my second huff this morning.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 28 Jan 2016, 22:20

Do two huffs make an irk?
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyThu 28 Jan 2016, 23:23

Priscilla wrote:
Do two huffs make an irk?
As long as they don't make a Huffington (specifically Arianna of That Ilk) I can tolerate numerous huffs.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyFri 29 Jan 2016, 08:49

Here is another atmospheric disturbance:

wiki:

"A.D. 793. This year came dreadful fore-warnings over the land of the Northumbrians, terrifying the people most woefully: these were immense sheets of light rushing through the air, and whirlwinds, and fiery dragons flying across the firmament. These tremendous tokens were soon followed by a great famine: and not long after, on the sixth day before the ides of January in the same year, the harrowing inroads of heathen men made lamentable havoc in the church of God in Holy-island (Lindisfarne), by rapine and slaughter.

— Anglo Saxon Chronicle."

probably June rather than January
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyFri 30 Sep 2016, 13:22

Earlier I wrote:
PS: Astrologically I have decided I'm an Ophiuchus (the 13th sign of the 14 used by Russell Grants in antiquity). Not because I fit any of the personality criteria. Simply because I heartily agree with the sentiment expressed when one loudly shouts out the star-sign's name.

And now there's seemingly many more shouting the same!

Ophiuchis causes Zodiac identity crisis

I love NASA's disclaimer:

Even Nasa quickly put out a statement, stressing that scientists had done no wrong – the Babylonians and Earth’s axis were to blame. "We didn’t change any zodiac signs, we just did the math."
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyFri 30 Sep 2016, 16:16

Deleted.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyMon 31 Oct 2016, 12:24

This is rather sad - I've just started a post about what Matthew and Luke were really up to with their Nativity stories (including, in Matthew's Gospel, the Star of the thread title): how they were setting up their executed peasant leader as a viable alternative - a rival even - to Augustus Caesar and his successors.

Luke and Matthew were determined to show how - in terms of royal descent, miraculous birth, being the "Son of God" and "Saviour" and "Bringer of Peace", no matter what, in fact, the Romans could claim in their Imperial theology about their all-conquering Emperor(s) - the dead carpenter (or his followers rather) could go one better. The "Kingdom" of Jesus of Nazareth most definitely was not/had not been a geo-political or military challenge to the rival ruler(s) in Rome, but was something rather different. But His Kingdom was the greater and the more powerful. The Romans, if any of them read the stuff that was circulating after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, no doubt laughed all the way to the forum.

I've put this here because Augustus even had a really nice star - or rather his ancestor, Aeneas, did. According to Virgil, Venus, the Morning Star, guided Aeneas from Troy. So Matthew gave Jesus a Star too - or rather gave the Magi one. Lovely idea - very neat.

The other parallels between Jesus and Octavian are remarkable. The Nativity stories in no way were meant to be taken literally: their importance, like so much else in the Bible, was/is symbolic - something the early Jewish Christians would have been fully aware of, and which modern fundamentalists don't get at all.

Then - and this is the sad bit -  I thought to myself: "Is it worth the effort? I'd like to think it is, but will probably be told that this is all a load of nonsense. Why bother?" The shooting down does get a tad dispiriting after a while - whinge, whinge, whinge.

But I'll send my truncated post anyway, for what it's worth, then go and plant some bulbs for the squirrels to eat tomorrow. Futility is the mood and the word of the day. But no doubt this dark mood will pass - hope so, anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptyTue 01 Nov 2016, 10:00

You could very well be correct, it definitely sounds completely plausible to me that whoever wrote the original gospel texts would try to pack as much information into them as possible which at least might shake then prevalent assumptions regarding portents, astrological interpretations etc, and even cheekily reinterpret long-held theological assumptions based on these. In fact at this far remove from the lore and sensibilities of the day there's probably even more such stuff packed in there than we can presently even identify as possibly conforming to that tactic. It's a bit much to assert however that the whole nativity thing was allegorical and only ever intended to be - it may be true that it worked as allegory in almost every detail, but it was also very intentionally presented as a factual account too, at least to the majority of the "great unwashed" who were most certainly invited to accept it on those terms.

I notice on re-reading the thread that all of us missed a very important point too - namely that at the time all the stories we've been analysing were concocted (and not just the biblical versions) there were five wandering stars that everyone knew about, could see if they cared to look, and each of which were laden with supposed astrological and even theological significance (Phosphorus, the one you referred to, was what we call Venus and would never confuse with a star, but they did not distinguish these things like we do). And besides the known planets there was also another set of at least seven wandering stars, which could only be observed by those in the know, but which also had accrued huge spiritual significance across all the belief systems knocking about at the time, Vega being the one which has oddly inspired the most romantic and touching interpretations through all the diverse cultures that identified it. We've assumed, like everyone else, that the one mentioned in the gospels was meant to be interpreted as a one-off event, but really it could as easily have been a reference to one of these twelve known "stars" and their associated events, some of which were steeped in arcane interpretations already due to their rarity and difficulty of comprehension.

I agree with you too that the gospel writers were probably targeting specifically Roman theistic sensibilities by drawing intentional parallels between their adopted theology and the one already out there, and that this took some balls on their part. But whether they were alone in this is another matter. The little we know of Mithras and what was invented around him, for example, seems to point to a similar hijack attempt by those lads too (and from what we know they were all lads, no gals).
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 11 Dec 2021, 17:08

nordmann wrote:
I notice on re-reading the thread that all of us missed a very important point too - namely that at the time all the stories we've been analysing were concocted (and not just the biblical versions) there were five wandering stars that everyone knew about, could see if they cared to look, and each of which were laden with supposed astrological and even theological significance (Phosphorus, the one you referred to, was what we call Venus and would never confuse with a star, but they did not distinguish these things like we do). And besides the known planets there was also another set of at least seven wandering stars, which could only be observed by those in the know, but which also had accrued huge spiritual significance across all the belief systems knocking about at the time, Vega being the one which has oddly inspired the most romantic and touching interpretations through all the diverse cultures that identified it. We've assumed, like everyone else, that the one mentioned in the gospels was meant to be interpreted as a one-off event, but really it could as easily have been a reference to one of these twelve known "stars" and their associated events, some of which were steeped in arcane interpretations already due to their rarity and difficulty of comprehension.

Last December's Great Conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn caused quite a stir in this. This year, indeed right now, Venus is moving thru a very bright phase while the Comet Leonard and the Asteroid Nereus are both passing by Earth. Needless to say, however, that it's been grey skies and drizzle here all day long with continued cloud cover forecast tonite so I doubt there'll be much chance for wondering at wandering stars this evening.
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PostSubject: Re: The Star of Bethlehem   The Star of Bethlehem - Page 2 EmptySat 11 Dec 2021, 23:42

Not an erudite contribution to the thread but having twice seen comets very clearly, both impressed as being both new to the night sky and different. We had made an overnight trek deep into a desert to see one and the other we saw when staying high in a fairly remote part of the Himalayan foothills we observed on the several nights we were there. Even relative townies like us, with only a simple knowledge of the night sky appreciated something out of the ordinary up there .... and they were also each different.
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