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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyThu 31 May 2012, 10:10

That's not so bad Gran, I rather like Phil Harding's accent.

Just as long as you didn't look like him also, with that horrible hair and side whiskers to match affraid. lol

I know, I know, I've got me coat already..

Seriously, I don't like my accent either and they are so bloody difficult to get rid of.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 31 Jan 2015, 21:45

Islanddawn wrote:
Written English does differ too though, the spelling variations in American vs British English for example.

I was recently scrolling thru the regimental muster lists and pay rolls of the Delaware militia from the 1770s (as one does) and discovered the first month of the year 1777 spelt as Janry in the state archives. I was quite excited by this because that's the way I like to spell the word. My excitement, however, turned to disappointment when the second month of the year was spelled conventionally as February. (I prefer Febry.) Further disappointment ensued when Janry itself was spelled as January for other years in the 1770s archives. It seems that the 1777 entry was merely a typesetter's abbreviation (or aberration).

That said - the spelling of the first 2 months of the year does seem to be at odds with virtually every accent (regional or social) of the English language. Attempts to give the Johnsonian/Websterian spelling of 'January' and 'February' full value in the spoken language nearly always end up sounding either forced or false. Quite often it's just hilarious. Are there other spelling variants available for those 2 months (from perhaps before the 18th century) but which more closely reflect how people actually speak?
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 31 Jan 2015, 21:58

Ianuarius et Februarius
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 01 Feb 2015, 08:00

You must all think I sound awfully posh because I pronounce them as Jan-u-arry, and Febr-u-arry, abeit with plenty of "liason" (linking/running the syllables together) and with just the lightest touch on the "u" of February. You lot just don't speak proper!


Last edited by Meles meles on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 09:57; edited 1 time in total
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 01 Feb 2015, 09:26

I'd say that round here the "u" is pronounced, it is the following "a" that gets elided.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 01 Feb 2015, 09:58

That's the word I was desparately trying to recall, "elided". Liason is French and doesn't mean quite the same thing.

And now of course I can't get this out of my head (and so beautifully pronounced too):

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 01 Feb 2015, 20:51

Caro wrote:
For reasons I don't understand, people seem to pick up accents from their place rather than their families.  People who immigrate keep their accent to a fair degree (in NZ no one doubted my grandmother was Scottish but in Scotland they thought she spoke like a NZer) but their children have the accent of the rest of the population.  People like my husband who lived his first five years in Kent and then a further one when he was 11 still speak with the accent of the place they arrive at.  It's not usually a conscious decision to fit in, though may be in older kids.

There's a South African family where I live and their third child was born in NZ, but speaks with a SA accent and I can't ever remember hearing that before.  He goes to a regular school and the family mix in the community, so I don't know why he's held their accent when it is not usual to.  

(It's a little odd to think that my grandson is going to speak with an English (Sheffield) accent - with a little bit of Welsh and NZ, I suppose.)
From 22 Feb.2012.

Caro,

"For reasons I don't understand, people seem to pick up accents from their place rather than their families."

I think because they have more exposure to the society after some years than to their family? A human is a social being and as such he picks up the language of the environment he is most embedded in?

"People who immigrate keep their accent to a fair degree (in NZ no one doubted my grandmother was Scottish but in Scotland they thought she spoke like a NZer) but their children have the accent of the rest of the population.  People like my husband who lived his first five years in Kent and then a further one when he was 11 still speak with the accent of the place they arrive at.  It's not usually a conscious decision to fit in, though may be in older kids."

I think it's a complex situation. To take the example of my family. Up to my fourteen I spoke the local dialect from a small city near Ghent, but was already exposed to the dialect of my father from near Bruges, my mother speaking the local dialect from our city. Later in the weekends I got exposed to the dialect of Ostend. At fifteen I got defenitely to live in Ostend and was going to school there too. I started first with standard Dutch, but as that was not social accepted, learned in nearly one year to speak the Ostend dialect. When I moved to near Torhout for profession and living I learned the local dialect and after one year spoke it too. But even after 55 years I can go neatless to my original dialect from near Ghent.
But my mother spoke even after a 60 years exposure to the Ostend dialect still her dialect from near Ghent.
My aunt from Bruges (city! dialect) spokes in Ostend also always till she died her local Bruges dialect. And her two sons had, although they went to school in Ostend, still the characteristics of the Brugean dialect.
And it are not only the sounds of the vowels which differ but also a lot of complete other words...

"There's a South African family where I live and their third child was born in NZ, but speaks with a SA accent and I can't ever remember hearing that before.  He goes to a regular school and the family mix in the community, so I don't know why he's held their accent when it is not usual to"

Caro, it is only a guess, but some youngsters seem to like, perhaps because they are then perceived as "special" to maintain their original dialect, to have a special position in the group?

Kind regards and with esteem, Paul.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 01 Feb 2015, 22:36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqIcbLkY2iY

A lot of offcomers think "Black Country" is the same as Birmingham.
It ay. They spake funny in Brummagem.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyMon 02 Feb 2015, 15:01

There was a story that when Maggie Smith was preparing for her role in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, she was advised to contact a lady who lived in Morningside, Edinburgh, and who had just the accent that Maggie was looking for.

So, Maggie Smith duly phoned up the lady in question and said " I would like to record your accent for my use in an upcoming film . Would it be all right if I treat you to lunch and bring along a tape recorder?"

To which there was a rather indignant reply "Young woman, I have absolutely no accent whatsoever!!!!"* and slammed the phone down.

*In best Morningside.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyMon 02 Feb 2015, 15:36

The British Sound Library has a number of recordings of British & Commonwealth POWs made by the Germans in WW1. Organised by county:

http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Berliner-Lautarchiv-British-and-Commonwealth-recordings
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyMon 02 Feb 2015, 16:48

Meles meles wrote:
That's the word I was desparately trying to recall, "elided". Liason is French and doesn't mean quite the same thing.

And now of course I can't get this out of my head (and so beautifully pronounced too):

Sort of on topic (Flanders & Swan were a delight in my childhood) :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdY1Y5XNJBY
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 01 Aug 2020, 17:49

As we on another thread are speaking about Southern French dialects, a song from Limburg in one! of the local dialects.

Regional accents  - Page 3 1200px-3Limburgen.svg


The Limburg dialect is a Dutch dialect, although it is part of a "dialectcontinuum"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum




Lyrics: I didn't find an English translation

https://muzikum.eu/en/123-109-1169/jo-erens/limburg-allein-lyrics.html

Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 11:47

Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
I'd say that round here the "u" is pronounced, it is the following "a" that gets elided.

I know that post is from a few years ago but that is very similar to how it is pronounced in my neck of the woods.  I tend to sound the 'a' lightly but the 'u' is definitely more heavily accented.

I hope this is the right thread. I was trying to find a proper English translation for a Flemish/Dutch idiomatic expression Paul used in the 'controlling the narrative' thread.  I didn't have any luck but I came across this list of Flemish Dutch sayings that can't be translated into English literally.  https://theculturetrip.com/europe/belgium/articles/13-expressions-in-flemish-that-make-no-sense-in-english/

According to the list a saying which literally means you throw your cap at it means you don't care.  In English we have the expression 'to throw your cap/hat into the ring' which has quite a different meaning.  https://www.collinsdictionary.com/.../english/throw-your-hat-into-the-ring
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 11:56

I think this version of "La Petite Gayole" is in French with a Belgian accent but there are some written versions of the song in Walon to be found on Wikipedia.   https://wa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_ptite_gayole_(tchanson)  I think a gayole is a canary.  Correction:  See MM's comment below that the gayole is actually the cage.


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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 12:40

I think the gayole is actually the canary's cage, particularly as a later verse describes the canary as being "Dans cette p'tite gayole ci".

In Old French a gayolle was a prison (in the 18th century the infamous and hated Bastille fortress/prison in Paris was still sometimes referred to, probably deliberately using an anachronistic word, as a gayolle), while in modern Spanish a gayola is a cage but it can also mean a prison cell, or the whole prison building. English similarly has the word gaol, albeit now often spelled jail, while modern French still has geôle ... which all come from the same medieval Latin legal term for a prison, gabiola, ... or in Vulgar Latin, caveola, which is itself a diminutive of the classical Latin, cavea, from which also derive words like cavern, cavity, coop and cave/cellar. The allusion of a caged canary being in prison is of course obvious and the English term "gaol bird", for a human prisoner, probably derives from the practice of locking convicts in iron cages that were then suspended several feet above the ground to be visible to passersby, the iron cages resembling bird cages.


Last edited by Meles meles on Sun 02 Aug 2020, 19:26; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : terrible and misleading punctuation)
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 13:21

You are right, MM and I have amended my earlier comment.  There is a 'Gaolgate Street' in my hometown (it's part of the high street which isn't called the high street in my town - it's variously Greengate Street (end near the medieval south gate which was called the green gate and not the south gate),  Bridge Street and then Gaolgate Street (after the medieval north gate which was (and its situation still is though there of course isn't a gate anymore) and still is quite near the town jail.

I'd heard that in the wars which preceded Robert the Bruce becoming king of Scotland, his sister, Mary Bruce, had been suspended for a time in such a cage outside Roxburgh Castle and Isabella, Countess of Buchan, was treated similarly at Berwick Castle.  I hadn't realised it was a commonplace practice at one time though.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 13:45

I'm not sure how widespread the practice was for live criminals to be displayed in cages, but in the form of gibbeting or hanging-in-irons, it was quite common for the remains of executed criminals. Highwaymen and pirates were often displayed like this. Others might be those executed for treason where it was thought expedient to make an example of them to deter anyone else from similar rebellion. Such a one was Robert Aske, the leader of the 1536 Pilgrimmage of Grace, who Henry VIII had executed in front of Clifford's Tower in York and then his body suspended in a cage hung from the castle wall until it had decayed and fallen to bits, as a grisly reminder to the city's people never to attempt the like again.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 17:04

LadyinRetirement wrote:
I think this version of "La Petite Gayole" is in French with a Belgian accent but there are some written versions of the song in Walon to be found on Wikipedia.   https://wa.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_ptite_gayole_(tchanson)  I think a gayole is a canary.  Correction:  See MM's comment below that the gayole is actually the cage.
 
LiR, the Walloon dialects aren't spoken that much anymore by youngsters, but there is a renewed interest I think as cultural heritage and even theatre in Walloon (of the four or five Walloon dialects)
Even here in the North the Flemish dialects are disappearing among the younsters (I have to say less quickly than in Wallonia).
I guess it will need a newer generation to let die the dialects and I guess even not completely. And there will always be the folkloristic aspect...



And I think in the dialect from Charleroi...



Kind regards from Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 18:14

When I was looking for Wallonian (is that the right word?) songs I saw a lot of tracks listed from Bob Decamps.  I googled his name but couldn't find anything but I assume he was a Walloon singer and musician?
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 02 Aug 2020, 20:13

LiR perhaps under "walloon songs" but better under "chansons wallonnes"

It's "Bob Deschamps" LiR (en néerlandais: Bob Vandervelde or literal Bob van de velden)
I found only something in French:
https://www.dhnet.be/medias/musique/le-chanteur-bob-deschamps-s-est-eteint-au-terme-d-une-tres-longue-maladie-51b7d346e4b0de6db9906633
 
Perhaps also something from Bob (from Robert. We pronounce it both in the North and in the South as "robè--èr"...



But I don't find a name, it can be from Paul Stassart too.
I wonder if MM can understand something from it? In any case not me. Perhaps with all his Belgian connections...

Kind regards, Paul.

PS. And by seeking for "El Scottish" I found this
http://www.ucwallon.be/PDF/bxtnblospls.pdf

Perhaps already dated (from 2001-2002); but the latest study about the nowadays Walloon dialects...very interesting for me...perhaps I know now more about Walloon dialects than the average Walloon Wink
And I mentioned it especially for MM to read (if he is interested...)
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brenogler
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyTue 24 Nov 2020, 18:19

Triceratops wrote:
There was a story that when Maggie Smith was preparing for her role in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, she was advised to contact a lady who lived in Morningside, Edinburgh, and who had just the accent that Maggie was looking for.

So, Maggie Smith duly phoned up the lady in question and said " I would like to record your accent for my use in an upcoming film . Would it be all right if I treat you to lunch and bring along a tape recorder?"

To which there was a rather indignant reply "Young woman, I have absolutely no accent whatsoever!!!!"* and slammed the phone down.

*In best Morningside.
  I don't have an accent: all these other folk do.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyThu 26 Nov 2020, 19:48

What did you say about your Geordie accent, Brenogler?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Geordie-accent-the-most-impenetrable-English-accent-How-was-this-accent-created

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And yes, the push for publicing here, came from this article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55069048

And MM is it this one in your neck of the woods? (Languedoc-Roussilion I presume?)



Kind regards, Paul.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyThu 26 Nov 2020, 21:42

Is it a Geordie accent that we hear in Vera and Shetland or is that just plain Scotch? Often when we are watching these programmes (Vera is our go-to when we are deciding what to watch), my husband and I rewind the words several times and are still left shaking our heads. And that's with me being brought up by a Scottish grandmother.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 08:35

Caro wrote:
Is it a Geordie accent that we hear in Vera and Shetland or is that just plain Scotch? Often when we are watching these programmes (Vera is our go-to when we are deciding what to watch), my husband and I rewind the words several times and are still left shaking our heads. And that's with me being brought up by a Scottish grandmother.

I'd never heard of either 'Vera' nor 'Shetland' which I now see are TV crime dramas, but I imagine that, unless to give specific 'local flavour', the accents used would be deliberately watered down to make them generally intelligible to a wider audience. That said, the dialect spoken in the Shetland Isles would surely be the local insular variety of Modern Scots, ie derived from Old Lowland Scots, but inevitably with considerable Scandinavian influence. Shetland was ruled by Norway until absorbed into the Scottish kingdom in the late 15th century, after which I assume Scots (ie Lowland Scots) and then Modern English would have become increasingly used.





Apart from the unique dialect words the first speaker is almost completely comprehensible to me ... the second lady rather less so.

Since 'Vera' is largely set in Newcastle many of the characters presumably do speak Geordie ... or Northumbrian. Geordie is very particular and restricted to only a very small area in and around the city of Newcastle upon Tyne, north of the river and eastwards to coast. The accent in the rest of the mostly rural county of Northumberland is rather different, but it does have most of the same dialect words. My Dad, born in Whitley Bay to parents born in Byker, spoke Geordie as a child but strived to lose it, or at least the strongest elements of it, simply for practical reasons, when he was in the RAF and subsequently once he'd met my Mum and was working as a teacher in the South of England. Meanwhile Granny spent the last 50 years of her life in Wooler, a small market town in North Northumberland very close to the Scottish border, and so when I knew her she had largely lost her Geordie accent and adopted the softer more general Northumbrian/Borders accent.

But I think Brenogler would be the expert on Geordie and Northumbrian accents.

PaulRyckier wrote:
And MM is it this one in your neck of the woods? (Languedoc-Roussilion I presume?)

I'm pretty sure that the youtube you posted, Paul, would be from rather further north-east - probably around Narbonne, Carcassonne, Béziers or Montpellier - partly because of the dialect being spoken, but also and not the least, because of the emblem of the Occitan or Cathar cross on all the flags and banners, as opposed to the 'sang i or' flag (the 'blood and gold', ie four red bars on a yellow background) of Catalunya. Around me the culture is more specifically Catalan; the ties are towards greater Catalunya (ie in NE Spain and Andorra) and the language (after French of course) is specifically Catalan, albeit that Catalan is part of the same language group as all the other Occitan dialects. Catalan nationalists here in Roussillon would rather like the French Pyrénées-Orientales department to secede from the wider Languedoc-Roussillon region and become a region in its own right under the proposed name of 'Catalunya Nord' (Northern Catalonia) and as part of the wider 'Països Catalans' (Catalan Countries) which, so they hope, will ultimately be an independent state. Politically this idea has minimal popular support (at least in Roussillon) but culturally the region is nevertheless more aligned with other Catalan regions than with the Occitan regions deeper into southern France.


Last edited by Meles meles on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 12:33; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : some serious typos)
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Green George
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 11:09

I'm sorry, but the map of "regional dialects" is total balderdash. Brummie is NOT spoken in the wider Black Country, North Staffordshire is not yam-yam  but nearly Potteries and starts north of Lichfield, Gornelian is Gornelian and nothing else, most of Shropshire speaks a waterered-down version of Hereford/Worcester, and Walsal (Wersull to some locals) has two distinct accents. As for Uchetter , Rudgly, and Tammerth, well words fail me.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 14:19

Caro wrote:
Is it a Geordie accent that we hear in Vera and Shetland or is that just plain Scotch? Often when we are watching these programmes (Vera is our go-to when we are deciding what to watch), my husband and I rewind the words several times and are still left shaking our heads. And that's with me being brought up by a Scottish grandmother.

Caro, as you already mentioned "Vera" once to me, I have now seen it for the first time on the French language Belgian TV (RTBF). Season 10, Episode  3 to be precise.
But no Scotch accent or anything else, because they follow the French and German custom of dubbing in French or German with French or German subtitles, if wished.

Our go-to on the wish of the partner, is the German soap "Sturm der Liebe" (Storm of love) such a "Bonanza", "The Bold and the Beautiful" kind with a Bavarian class hotel near Munchen as central point. They speak "standard Hochdeutsch" German with a slight local Bavarian accent , especially by the elderly people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_of_Love
Was Bonanza longer? The Bavarian series now already 15 years...
They make even pilgrimages with adepts to the Bavarian hotel and the actors, of course with an organisation to earn money (for that organisation I mean)

PS. And a question to the contributors here in general. Are they dubbing in English foreign language films too as they mostly do in France and Germany?

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 15:24

Meles meles wrote:

PaulRyckier wrote:
And MM is it this one in your neck of the woods? (Languedoc-Roussilion I presume?)

I'm pretty sure that the youtube you posted, Paul,  would be from rather further north-east - probably around Narbonne, Carcassonne, Béziers or Montpellier - partly because of the dialect being spoken, but also and not the least, because of the emblem of the Occitan or Cathar cross on all the flags and banners, as opposed to the 'sang i or' flag (the 'blood and gold', ie four red bars on a yellow background) of Catalunya. Around me the culture is more specifically Catalan; the ties are towards greater Catalunya (ie in NE Spain and Andorra) and the language (after French of course) is specifically Catalan, albeit that Catalan is part of the same language group as all the other Occitan dialects. Catalan nationalists here in Roussillon would rather like the French Pyrénées-Orientales department to secede from the wider Languedoc-Roussillon region and become a region in its own right under the proposed name of 'Catalunya Nord' (Northern Catalonia) and as part of the wider 'Països Catalans' (Catalan Countries) which, so they hope, will ultimately be an independent state. Politically this idea has minimal popular support (at least in Roussillon) but culturally the region is nevertheless more aligned with other Catalan regions than with the Occitan regions deeper into southern France.

Thank you so much MM for your in detail explanation especially of all the political ramifications...I know you will be familiar with all this as you lived and had family in Belgium...unbelievable that you could determine the place and dialect by looking to the flags...but as you know that is quite common overhere in Belgium too.
I have seen that in the Seventies in Quimper Brittany. And I was there with a former partner, coincidentaly without knowing beforehand about the "feast". But in that time it was much more political and for instance the "vendelzwaaier" was more "resolved" and "severe" in his face for the cause than the one on the next photo...
I have a photo from it exactly from the same position and on the same place as on this photo:
https://quimper.maville.com/actu/actudet_-festival-cornouaille-l-edition-2015-en-video_fil-2729756_actu.Htm
BTW: I don't find a translation for "vendelzwaaier" (they say in Dutch (although my word is also Dutch) "vaandrig" and they translate with "resign?")
https://quimper.maville.com/actu/actudet_-festival-cornouaille-l-edition-2015-en-video_fil-2729756_actu.Htm


Regional accents  - Page 3 P1D2729756G_px_640_


BTW. We have again a federal government in Belgium of course without the hard core Flemish Nationalists from the right and the hard core left of the Communists. The moderate Flemish Nationalists are out and they are not pleased. But to counter that they needed and the Socialists, the Liberals, the Christian-Democrats and the Greens.
But now I am a bit optimist for a Belgian peace, which can grow perhaps reluctantly, but nevertheless grow...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 20:51

MM:
Since 'Vera' is largely set in Newcastle many of the characters presumably do speak Geordie ... or Northumbrian. Geordie is very particular and restricted to only a very small area in and around the city of Newcastle upon Tyne, north of the river and eastwards to coast. The accent in the rest of the mostly rural county of Northumberland is rather different, but it does have most of the same dialect words. My Dad, born in Whitley Bay to parents born in Byker, spoke Geordie as a child but strived to lose it, or at least the strongest elements of it, simply for practical reasons, when he was in the RAF and subsequently once he'd met my Mum and was working as a teacher in the South of England. Meanwhile Granny spent the last 50 years of her life in Wooler, a small market town in North Northumberland very close to the Scottish border, and so when I knew her she had largely lost her Geordie accent and adopted the softer more general Northumbrian/Borders accent.

But I think Brenogler would be the expert on Geordie and Northumbrian accents.


 I thank you for considering that I might be an authority on Geordie  accents. Unfortunately I am in a similar boat to you.

 My Dad was born in Byker and became a pilot in the RAF, so had to lose what accent he had so that he could communicate clearly. Of course ,because he was in the RAF, I left Newcastle when I was a child, and learnt to speak in a few small villages in Notts, Lincolnshire and (mostly) Gloucestershire before returning to Newcastle when I was 6yrs old.

  It was HELL.  "Hey there's that posh kid, let's get him."

I eventually managed to get an accent which was acceptable to the locals but even after many years in the area everyone thinks that if I attempt a Geordie accent it sounds as if "I'm a southerner putting it on".

Ref. The Shetland clips:

  I found them clearly understandable. I used to hillwalk in Northumberland (often near Bellingham,and Wooler, MM).  The Northumbrian accent is very similar to Shetland and I had to to translate for Glaswegians when I was there.

I was only there from Nov to Feb - I wouldn't mind seeing the place in daylight.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 22:23

Paul is the likeliest to know this :- was the language used by the Burgundian composers Dufay and Binchois distinct from the standard "Langue d'oil"?
eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yed_qocNNI
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyFri 27 Nov 2020, 22:43

That flag - gwenn-ha-du aka la blanche hermine - which is the symbol of Breizh/Brittany, of course has echos, linguistically and heraldically - with Kernow and Cymru. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lXv1vpziL8
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 28 Nov 2020, 16:18

Green George wrote:
I'm sorry, but the map of "regional dialects" is total balderdash. Brummie is NOT spoken in the wider Black Country, North Staffordshire is not yam-yam  but nearly Potteries and starts north of Lichfield, Gornelian is Gornelian and nothing else, most of Shropshire speaks a waterered-down version of Hereford/Worcester, and Walsal (Wersull to some locals) has two distinct accents. As for Uchetter , Rudgly, and Tammerth, well words fail me.

GG, as you know I am an ignorant in English dialects. I just know that Geordie is spoken in Newcastle. And that mentioned history bachelor clothing shop-asistant in Newcastle revealed to me that the dialect of Glasgow was even stronger...I would rather say: worser...

So up to you and from the wiki liar is this map better?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_dialects_of_English

Regional accents  - Page 3 Dialects_of_the_british_isles

On my first sight not so much different from the other map?

Regional accents  - Page 3 Main-qimg-008ed9473e05590ee5348e84693eb3c8
 
And seeing now on wiki that you have also "Euro-English"...
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Euro_English

Our Charles Michel: (and he speaks even better Dutch than English for a French speaking inhabitant of Wallonia)



And our Ursula von der Leyen



Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 28 Nov 2020, 17:46

Paul - that's scarcely any better. West midlands encompassing Salop, Worcester, Hereford and Gloucester it plain wrong. They are all more similar to West Country than to the more urban areas. You'd need the expertise and granularity Shaw imputes to Professor Higgins to do it justice.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 28 Nov 2020, 17:53

Green George wrote:
That flag - gwenn-ha-du aka la blanche hermine - which is the symbol of Breizh/Brittany, of course has echos, linguistically and heraldically - with Kernow and Cymru. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lXv1vpziL8

GG, of course it is one Celtic and language related culture

Regional accents  - Page 3 2ff6e6984653ad8fa69e1e370379b27f
Yes those Anglo-Saxons, Franks, and Visigoth barbarians pushed those in the meantime Romanized Celts to the confines of Western Europe.

And I can understand that such flags as the "Blanche hermine"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Brittany

and An Alarc'h sung in the middle of Paris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lXv1vpziL8
https://greatsong.net/TRADUCTION-TRI-YANN,AN-ALARCH,212628.html

can strike a chord at the other Celtic side of the Channel...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 28 Nov 2020, 17:55

Green George wrote:
Paul - that's scarcely any better. West midlands encompassing Salop, Worcester, Hereford and Gloucester it plain wrong. They are all more similar to West Country than to the more urban areas. You'd need the expertise and granularity Shaw imputes to Professor Higgins to do it justice.

Sorry, GG as ignorant I have to trust onreliables as Wiki.
You have nowhere something more scientific on the internet?
Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 28 Nov 2020, 22:37

Green George wrote:
Paul is the likeliest to know this :- was the language used by the Burgundian composers Dufay and Binchois distinct from the standard "Langue d'oil"?
eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yed_qocNNI

GG, what a difficult question.

I thought first that the language of Vergine Bella was a kind of French...
https://mignarda.bandcamp.com/track/vergine-bella-by-guillaume-dufay-1397-1474-2

But back to the language of the composers as a Dufay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Du_Fay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_School
and before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Flemish_School

What language?  for instance already a controversy about Dufay
see for instance how the Dutch wiki refers to:
"Guillaume Dufay (uit te spreken als: Dufà-ie) (bij Beersel?, 5 augustus 1397? – Kamerijk27 november 1474) was een Vlaams componist uit de Bourgondische Nederlanden. Hij wordt als een van de grootste componisten van de 15e eeuw beschouwd in de Vlaamse Polyfonie waarvan hij, samen met Gilles Binchois, de eerste beroemde vertegenwoordiger is.
"Flemish componist" Wink
But even from jstor:
"and that there is not a shred of evidence that the composer himself ever spoke Flemish. By upbringing and education Du Fay was French. 24 The latest accounts, with references to earlier literature, are in Fallows, Dufay, 12; and Planchart, "Guillaume Du Fay's Benefices," I i8.
Nationality: French Parents: Marie Du Fayt Died: 1475
The Early Career of Guillaume Du Fay - jstor[url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/831925#:~:text=and that there is not,Fay's Benefices%2C" I i8.][/url]
[url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/831925#:~:text=and that there is not,Fay's Benefices%2C" I i8.][/url]

I guess, although he in his childhood has perhaps spoken some Brabantic Dutch and certainly Giles de Binche, who was from the French speaking Mons, were in their later career speaking a kind of Burgundian French spoken in the Low Countries and as elsewhere in the North of France, which was into the language forming of the French "Langue d'Oil".

Thanks to you, GG, I did some research about what language there was spoken in Brussels during the Burgund times and found this interesting survey about the history of Brussels and about the Dutch (Dietsch) speaking in Brussels till 1792.

http://www.paulderidderbrusselfirenze.info/16/8_brussels_use_of_languages_738532.html
http://www.paulderidderbrusselfirenze.info/

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 29 Nov 2020, 17:57

Yesterday submerged in what a Burgundian language could have been and more particurlarly what was spoken overhere in the Burgundian Netherlands. The lands from overhere: les pays de par deça/de landen van herwaarts over.
http://www.reflexions.uliege.be/cms/c_40164/en/pays-de-par-deca

First a course for the English speaking readers, who have time and time again difficulties with Dutch (Nederlands), the Low Countries: de Nederlanden (the Netherlands), and the modern naming: "The Netherlands" meaning only "Nederland" the modern naming of the Dutch Republic since I think 1815 when it became a Kingdom. Or was it after the official secession of Belgium in 1839?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_Low_Countries

As the Low Countries Burgundy (the main? important? Burgundy) lay on the Romance-Germanic language border, one can never speak in my opinion about a Burgundian language and as GG rightly says, or from a stage in the devopment of the "langue d'oil" and I add: or from a stage in the development of the Middle-Dutch.

And from there I come again to "dialects"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dialect
Or regional accents as the title of this thread.

And that is in my opinion the difference with language borders and dialects nearing that language border. There can be a dialect continuum as I guess between Scotland and England, but there can in my opinion never be a language continuum, implementing a more abrupt separation of the language border going over a more mixed language but never losing its essence at any side of the language border, which we people from the language borders as in Belgium, Alsace-Lorraine, Belgian Ostkantons have experienced to our detriment during the 19th and 20th century.

As example I want to use the wiki about France and its dialects and languages from which I learned a lot.
GG can say wiki-lier, but in my opinion it is always a first and mostly detailed approach to a certain subject.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_r%C3%A9gionales_ou_minoritaires_de_France

Regional accents  - Page 3 Langfr-800px-Langues_de_la_France.svg

And I come back to my statement that dialects of a language can easely be asorbed by the standard language as they are a part of it. But it is quite another kettle of fish with different "languages" as I see here Catalan, Corse, Basque, Breton, Flamand...perhaps an easier transition between French and Catalan or Corse and Lorrain because it are all related Romance languages, but I don't see on the first sight what a Celtic language like Breton or a non European language like Basque has to do with French?

I therefore think that it would be better to keep the "foreign" languages in France within their cultural context and area as local identity and for the groups interested in that local culture. 
It seems to be an uphill struggle to maintain that local language, when it is not related to a neighbouring bigger language area or even don't exist elsewhere in Europe as Basque or have to seek connections over the Channel as Breton?
As such I am nearly sure that if the Dutch language dialects in the Southern Netherlands hadn't had the Dutch language in the Dutch Republic, Belgium would have been now unilingual French.

I think nordmann if he is honest with himself, will have to agree that Celtic in the Irish Republic will be at the end only a cultural connotation and all these bilingual road signs and names as "Taoiseach" (even the BBC and the Belgian TV use it) 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoiseach
are windowdressing just to mask that the real in practice speaking of the Celtic language in Ireland is rapidly diminishing (I saw a documentary about it).
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 17 Jan 2021, 14:29

And yes further about languages and dialects see these discussions  Wink on "Historum"

https://historum.com/threads/language-suppressions-affect-on-culture.187204/page-9
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyMon 18 Jan 2021, 13:30

PaulRyckier wrote:
And yes further about languages and dialects see these discussions  Wink on "Historum"

https://historum.com/threads/language-suppressions-affect-on-culture.187204/page-9

And further on Historum about dialects from Europix (all over the years I learned that it is a compatriot of me)

He put a lot of dialect maps in question as GG does about the English dialects and I see now that he can easely be right, if you see this posted by Europix:

Regional accents  - Page 3 Proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fsblanguagemaps.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F11%2Fbelgium15

From a certain Sima Brankov...

MM, who knows a lot about Belgium as he has family in law overthere and "resided"  a time overthere too, and certainly I who studied the language question nearly to death, see immediatly the anomalies...

With my deeper knowledge of the languages in Belgium I correct the map for West Flemish still yet to Dunkirk spoken among the older people. And "East Flemish" (mainly from the nowedays province of East-Flanders) is extending into the South East province of East Flanders, which I experienced even myself.

The language of the former Duchy of Brabant (the nowedays Brabant dialects as "Antwaarps" (dialect from Antwerp) and the Brabant dialects as from Brussels and surroundings, also spoken in the South of the Netherlands (but with an official Dutch accent due to 400 years of separation from the Southern Netherlands)
And yes I agree that "Limburgish" is an apart Dutch dialect but still a Dutch dialect.

PS: I saw yesterday two German documentaries. One about Maximilian of Austria and one about Charles V (born in Ghent)
Both held residence in Brussels and Malines and in that time was the Brabant dialect integrally spoken in Brussels and surroundings.

PPS: For some outsiders it is perhaps a bit complex, as the nowadays Dutch language from the nowadays Netherlands pays a huge tribute to the Brabant dialect from all those from the Duchy of Brabant who escaped to Holland because of religious reasons in the religion wars. Of course in the 400 years of separation the Northern Dutch is evoluted in comparaison with Southern Dutch, hence the many differences (a bit as American and English (I suppose)). The "official" Dutch language only started in Belgium as a political decision (as "Europix" hinted to as the cause of a language or a dialect) a whole time after the Belgian revolution.
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PostSubject: "Macker"   Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 20 Feb 2021, 14:57

I saw yesterday one of the many episodes on BBC First with Dutch subtitles in the series of: "Death in paradise"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_in_Paradise_(TV_series)
I much liked one of the "three?" consecutive figureheads more than the others and I don't know why: the actor: Ardal O'Hanlon
https://www.programme.tv/news/series/207346-ardal-ohanlon-quitte-la-serie-meurtres-au-paradis/

But it is more about a word that he used "mucker" and at the same time he said something like "see I am an Irishman". I look not only to the Dutch subtitles but listen at the same time to the spoken language.
For instance I heard many times my new learned word from Temperance "What the heck"...
As I recognized the word "mucker" in the same sense as we say "makker" in Flemish of the former Duchy of Flanders, as "mate", I did some research. We say also in the same sense "kameraad" (comrade)...

But see what some on the "internet" make of it...unbelievable...
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mucker
And in such cases is wiki really a help...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mucker
and in Dutch:
http://etymologiebank.ivdnt.org/trefwoord/makker

And the pronunciation: 
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/mucker
https://nl.forvo.com/word/makker/#da
Only that we in our Duchy Flanders' dialect say a much more pronounced "r"...
And as I hear it the difference with English is only that our "makker" is pronounced with a much shorter "a"...

PS: Can it be that "O'Hanlon" is from Nothern Island?  Wink
PPS: Can it be that the actors playing the French policemen are in reality Englishmen? As their Frenchisized English don't sound as from a Frenchman speaking English...?  Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySat 20 Feb 2021, 15:49

O'Hanlon is from the west of Ireland but from rather well-to-do stock. His father, Rory, ran a lucrative private medical practice and then became a prominent politician, a long time Minister for Health, a Speaker of the Irish Parliament, and even a seriously considered candidate for the presidency at one time. The whole family can talk "proper" if they want to. Ardal can too, I assume, though he made a career as a stand-up comic in England using an accent that the locals there would expect from him, I suppose, and especially when he played up to the "thick Irish" stereotype with which they also associated it there (something for which he is not universally popular back home in Ireland). However when you have half the audience already laughing at your accent, even if on rather quasi-racist grounds, then your career as a fledgling comedian probably benefits from the boost.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 21 Feb 2021, 09:33

PaulRyckier wrote:
PPS: Can it be that the actors playing the French policemen are in reality Englishmen? As their Frenchisized English don't sound as from a Frenchman speaking English...?  Wink

I'm not sure I fully understand you having never seen the series, but from French-wiki (which lists all the actors in both language versions) the English language production (ie as filmed) is nearly all British actors but with some English-speaking French actors - while the French-language version is dubbed into French by native French speakers, but which in a few cases are the same (bilingual) actors. For example, the role of Inspecteur-chef Richard Poole is played and spoken in English by Ben Miller but the French language version has him dubbed by the French actor Emmanuel Curtil; while the part of Agent Dwayne Myers is acted by Danny John-Jules but dubbed in French by Jean-Paul Pitolin. The part of Sergent Camille Bordea however is acted and spoken, in both the English and French versions, by the French-Portuguese actress Sara Martins - similarly Sergent Florence Cassell is acted and again spoken in both the English and French versions by the French actress Joséphine Jobert. So if you were watching the English version with Dutch subtitles then yes, the majority are native-English actors, probably doing "Frenchified" accents or even "Caribbean-French" accents, but there are also a few English-speaking native-French speakers. However given that the series is set in Guadalope, if you are watching the French version I suspect some of the voice actors may well have been chosen because they can speak with suitable créole-antillais accents, a subtlety that French audiences might be expected recognise.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 21 Feb 2021, 17:10

nordmann wrote:
O'Hanlon is from the west of Ireland but from rather well-to-do stock. His father, Rory, ran a lucrative private medical practice and then became a prominent politician, a long time Minister for Health, a Speaker of the Irish Parliament, and even a seriously considered candidate for the presidency at one time. The whole family can talk "proper" if they want to. Ardal can too, I assume, though he made a career as a stand-up comic in England using an accent that the locals there would expect from him, I suppose, and especially when he played up to the "thick Irish" stereotype with which they also associated it there (something for which he is not universally popular back home in Ireland). However when you have half the audience already laughing at your accent, even if on rather quasi-racist grounds, then your career as a fledgling comedian probably benefits from the boost.

nordmann, thanks for the elucidation about the man that I already appreciated above those who replaced him as that figurehead in the series. But I think that the "text writers" of the series can make a figurehead more or less enjoyable for the public according to the manner with which the actor has to play his role as a character?
nordmann I enjoyed your expression: "the "thick Irish" stereotype". You have really a "rich" English language vocabulary I learned over the 8 last years.
Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 21 Feb 2021, 17:47

Meles meles wrote:
PaulRyckier wrote:
PPS: Can it be that the actors playing the French policemen are in reality Englishmen? As their Frenchisized English don't sound as from a Frenchman speaking English...?  Wink

I'm not sure I fully understand you having never seen the series, but from French-wiki (which lists all the actors in both language versions) the English language production (ie as filmed) is nearly all British actors but with some English-speaking French actors - while the French-language version is dubbed into French by native French speakers, but which in a few cases are the same (bilingual) actors. For example, the role of Inspecteur-chef Richard Poole is played and spoken in English by Ben Miller but the French language version has him dubbed by the French actor Emmanuel Curtil; while the part of Agent Dwayne Myers is acted by Danny John-Jules but dubbed in French by Jean-Paul Pitolin. The part of Sergent Camille Bordea however is acted and spoken, in both the English and French versions, by the French-Portuguese actress Sara Martins - similarly Sergent Florence Cassell is acted and again spoken in both the English and French versions by the French actress Joséphine Jobert. So if you were watching the English version with Dutch subtitles then yes, the majority are native-English actors, probably doing "Frenchified" accents or even "Caribbean-French" accents, but there are also a few English-speaking native-French speakers. However given that the series is set in Guadalope, if you are watching the French version I suspect some of the voice actors may well have been chosen because they can speak with suitable créole-antillais accents, a subtlety that French audiences might be expected recognise.
 
MM, thank you for your reaction. My version was the original English language one, as BBC First and also BBC Entertainment, which we have on our cable connection are included in the standard abonnement and I guess they give subtitles in the local language (overhere in the North of Belgium in Dutch). I saw already parts of the series on our Dutch language TV and there it is as usual the original version with Dutch subtitles. Saw also parts on the French language Belgian "RTBF" and there I guess they used as you said as in France the French dubbed version sometimes with or without French subtitles (if you click for "subtitles").

And yes MM what an elucidation...and you can be right about that créolic-antillais "French/English" accents, as I now recognize it a bit. Have you ever heard a French-Canadian speaking French? (Sorry, if a French-Canadian is reading this Embarassed )

And yes when I speak French, it is perhaps also a "special" Wink (don't know what:) "Flemish dialect accent?,  but at least I do my best to speak the French of the North of France. Even above our Belgian French from the South of Belgium trying to emphasize a bit the "r" and even saying "soixante-dix" instead of "septante"...and I am sure the real Frenchmen recognize my Belgian French, as someone from Dijon said to me he recognized even the French from my Southern Walloon brothers after they had only pronounced one single sentence...

Kind regards, Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyMon 22 Feb 2021, 12:39

I haven't seen the most recent season of Death in Paradise but I've seen some earlier seasons and quite enjoyed them in an 'escapist' sort of way. 

But then accents on TV can be weird. In Versailles a French TV company decided to film the show in English and to largely employ British and Canadian actors in the leading roles and the genuine French actors had supporting roles.  The fictional lady doctor was played by a French actress. Before anyone jumps in I'm sure there have been British actors who have done weird and maybe not so wonderful non-British accents.

Editing: because although the person to whom I had referred does to my English ears have a dodgy version of a British accent I thought maybe I was being harsh - I wasn't alluding to any of the cast in Death in Paradise by the way.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyTue 23 Feb 2021, 00:01

We watch Death in Paradise when we want a bit of a light murder mystery. (That should be a contradiction in terms but doesn't seem to be.) I just accept the accents, but do find people don't manage a New Zealand accent very well in British series. Mind you some of the older NZ novels (I am particularly thinking of Ngaio Marsh) have a very snobbish attitude to our accent, and even now lots of NZ people cringe at it. But I like the fact we have our own distinctive accent, as I enjoy other accents, especially the Irish one (or is it ones?). Not so much the southern American accent, but that's probably because I associate it with red-necked Americans.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2021, 04:05

Back to history in this thread, NZ/Aotearoa only has three accents, a Maori one, the ordinary NZ one, and one in Southland and parts of Otago where the Scottish ancestry shows through in the burr of sounds like 'churn', 'mourn', 'fern' etc. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ourchangingworld/audio/2018696216/the-southland-accent-a-rolling-change 

What I don't totally understand is why the Australian accent is so different from the NZ one (to our ears at least, if not to anyone else) - why don't we have the same sound for pen/pin? I remember (which I may have mentioned before) in an Australian swimming pool a little girl asking me to help her find her something, which I couldn't tell if she was asking for a pin or a pen. We never did find whatever it was. And why do they pronounce chance as chance when we say chaance?
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2021, 08:39

I don't understand your dilemma at the swimming pool, Caro. To my ear at least the Australian child's accent would have easily distinguished between a pen and a pin. A new Zealand child on the other hand would have had everyone looking for their lost pin, regardless of which item she might have lost. That's my imprission, anyway.

The "levelling down" theory in linguistics applies when various previously aloof dialects have to make themselves intelligible to each other in a relatively short while. This would explain the basic differences between the Australian and New Zealand accent as each "levelled down" at different periods and, crucially, from a different mixture of dialectic accents. In Australian traces of eight different strong English dialects have been detected in what is now called "middle" Australian (before RP changed everything again in more recent times), with a very strong bias in favour of England's south eastern dialects. Irish accents were thrown into the mix before the "levelling down" process had fully completed so they are easy to trace if not quite dominant. Scottish accents were there throughout the process but never in sufficient numbers to exert much influence on the final result.

New Zealand would have undergone a similar process, starting later and with Scottish probably playing the role that Estuary English had played in Australia. The latter was still strong enough to affect pronunciation too, hence the superficial similarity between the two nations' accents, but the added filters were of a very different ratio and dynamic during the process.

RP, which was somewhat artificially applied to both from the late 19th and all through the 20th century, would have "levelled up" both. So the assumption is that whatever differentiates one from the other these days, it is very likely they would have been even more mutually unintellligible around the middle of the 19th century. I'll chaance that as the bist bit for where things stand today. That long "chaance" is apparently down to a fundamental lexical set KIT vowel shift which only came about after WWII (as RP began to recede in influence in broad accent use in both countries), which is also apparently why "fush'n'chups" or "feesh'n'cheeps" so readily identify which species of Antipodean is doing the ordering.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2021, 10:28

When I was 'temping' in a firm in Wolverhampton in the late 1980s I came across a similar misunderstanding over 'e' and 'i'.  An American person at the firm thought something had been left for him on a 'disc' whereas as his English co-worker had in fact left a print-out on his 'desk'.  I can't provide any explanation of the vowel shift which caused the misapprehension though.  The American was from the western or southern States (not sure where exactly) and the English person was near Wolverhampton if not from 'Wolvo' itself.

Out of interest, thinking of the song with the words 'I say tomayto and you say tomarto, you say potayto and I say potarto' has anyone ever heard anybody actually pronounce 'potato' as 'potarto'?
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2021, 19:02

LadyinRetirement wrote:
When I was 'temping' in a firm in Wolverhampton in the late 1980s I came across a similar misunderstanding over 'e' and 'i'.  An American person at the firm thought something had been left for him on a 'disc' whereas as his English co-worker had in fact left a print-out on his 'desk'.  I can't provide any explanation of the vowel shift which caused the misapprehension though.  The American was from the western or southern States (not sure where exactly) and the English person was near Wolverhampton if not from 'Wolvo' itself.

Out of interest, thinking of the song with the words 'I say tomayto and you say tomarto, you say potayto and I say potarto' has anyone ever heard anybody actually pronounce 'potato' as 'potarto'?

LiR, I learned today "temping"...
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/temping

And while I am with you...and I first wanted to reply to Caro...regional accents you said...just to start with...and I can perfectly speak in three regional accents...MM told once that his Belgian friend could pronounce several Flemish dialects from the North of Belgium...

And what a difference, especially in the vowels but also in consonants and diphtongs between these three dialects...first and most between East and West-Flemish (from the former county of Flanders) and the centres Bruges-Courtrai and Ghent lay only some 50 km from each other. And then within that West Flemish you can hear a clear distinction between the inland Bruges and the I suppose called Coast Flemish (along the Belgian coast and the Dutch Zeeland (but there you have already influence of the standard Dutch (most influenced by Hollands) also the coast Flemish of French Flanders (now only spoken by older people and nearly dying and overwhelmed by the standard French) 
I promised to one of the French Passion Histoire to contact two I guess now retired professors living in the same city and having done a study and published a book about the Belgian French-Dutch language border. I want to start a study together with the one of Passion Histoire if this language border was created by the relief...but I am a bit afraid once I start with the professors that it will take too much of my time to link them with Passion Histoire...
https://fr-lu.topographic-map.com/maps/d83g/Flandre-Occidentale/

Some examples  about East and West Flemish: for instance standard Dutch : "zee" (sea) and "groot" (great)
pagina 45
https://www.dbnl.org/arch/devo007west01_01/pag/devo007west01_01.pdf
West-Flemish "zeeë" and "grooët"
East-Flemish "zieë" and "gruuët"
But that says nothing to an English speaking one as it is using the Dutch language pronunciation... and that even don't fit the "real "pronunciation...and I can pronounce it all perfectly Wink...perhaps one of the last ones who can do it before it all "dies"...as in French Flanders where they say to the "border" (de grens): "de schreve" (the line)...

And my mother from East-Flanders laughed always with my father from Bruges, when he said: instead of her "schoen" (shoe) his "choen" (pronounced the Flemish way and not so much as in the Hollandic way as from this example).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-mqd9Jpuak
Unbelievable when those of the nowadays Flemish provinces, with their respective dialects pronounce one sentence in Standard Dutch together with their neighbours of The Netherlands they can after one sentence say if they are from The Netherlands or from Belgium...it is still a mystery for me...I think it has to make with the 400 years of separation under different monarchs and education systems...?

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptyWed 24 Feb 2021, 19:49

And while we are together on this language forum. I have a vague remembrance that nordmann once said to LiR that some use of "you" could be insulting in English??? Or perhaps is it only in certain circumstances?

In our regional Dutch dialects I don't see on the first view any insulting possiblities, nor in the Standard Dutch...
In East and West Flemish we have some difficulties...as in East-Flemish we say for  "have you": hebt U: "ette" and in West Flemish we say: heb je: "ejje" ("U" from U edele? (the English "thy"?) and "je" from "jij"? and from the English "you")

But nothing insulting?
And yes that grammar of dialects is even more difficult than that of the standard language...and they have also a "richer" Wink grammar...
https://nl.wikibooks.org/wiki/West-Vlaams/Les_2:_Basisgrammatica
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Regional accents    Regional accents  - Page 3 EmptySun 07 Mar 2021, 12:19

PaulRyckier wrote:
Have you ever heard a French-Canadian speaking French?

To my non-native ears at least, the main difference between French accents is in the pronunciation of the vowels. The letter ‘a’ when followed by the letter ‘n’ being a good example. For instance the word ‘blanc’ in Parisian French is pronounced like an ‘o’ as in ‘blon’,  while in the West of France it’s pronounced more like an ‘a’ as in ‘blan’, and in the South of France it’s pronounced like a ‘e’ as in ‘blen’.  Similarly, the letter ‘e’ when followed by the letter ‘n’ is also pronounced like an ‘o’ in Parisian French. So ‘enfant’ is pronounced ‘onfon’. In the West it’s pronounced like an ‘a’ as in ‘anfan’ and in the South like an ‘e’ as in ‘enfen’. There’s a similar pattern with the letters ‘i’ and ‘u’ particularly when each is followed by the letter ‘n’. This may, of course, be a huge oversimplification.

With the French accents of North America such as in Quebec and Louisiana, then there is a view that these developed as a result of the blending of the accents of sailors and settlers from the West of France along with those of orphaned girls from Paris who in the 17th and 18th centuries were sent out each with a trousseau sponsored by the king and queen as potential spouses of the colonists. Some suggest, however, that this story could be apocryphal.
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