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 Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 14:54

@Islanddawn wrote:
@nordmann wrote:




Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 1272d1470944768-syn-value-jacobs-mikado-jam-coconut-biscuits-image



Ah one of my favourite from childhood, Iced Vovos! Eat the marshmallow and jam off and then chuck the rest of the biscuit away. Smile  They're Australian as far as I know.

What you are admiring there is the humble Mikado, designed by James McCarthy, chief confectionery innovator of the then Jacob's Biscuit Company in Dublin in the early 1930s. Jimmy left behind a pretty impressive record of biscuit and bar designs, many still going strong and copied throughout the world.

Mind you, if the Australians appropriated it and flogged it as their very own Iced Vovos, they were simply emulating some other great confectionery thefts that mark the 20th century out as one of the vilest in the history of global confectionery conflict. The Norwegians have perfected the villainy to a fine art, even nicking the pack designs and fonts, and they're still at it.

A few examples.

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Petbe_20120208%201021%20012_88

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Kvikklunsj01

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 872b2a3d4e20a766_800x800ar

Norwegians, as with your Ozzie Vovo, really believe all the above are local inventions.

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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 19:46

Australian Iced Vovos were first branded and registered in 1906. An Australian icon.

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 20:25

The thlock pithens! So McCarthy was the thief! Never trusted that sod after the fig rolls thing anyway!

They'll have to take his statue down now in Bishop Street. Or maybe not - Valeo Foods Ltd, who now run the Jacob's brands, claim that the Mikado has been a children's party staple since the 1880s. McCarthy's been given credit for something they were already producing, it seems, and even before the Vovo too - so Arnott isn't off the hook either.

I'm telling you - it's a vicious and cut-throat world, that confectionery one. A right den of iniquity.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 20:58

Well, the company producing them is owned by Kraft, who have already ruined Cadbury's chocolate, so all of these are likely to have the coatings replaced with American pseudo-chocolate in future.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 21:34

Errr ... here's an advert for both Mikado and Iced VoVo biscuits made by Aulsebrook's Biscuits which appeared in 'The Star' (Sydney, Australia) 21 November 1905 p4:

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Aulsebrooks-biscuits-including-iced-vovo-star-issue-8477-21-november-1905-page-4-edit

The Aulsebrook biscuit company were originally from New Zealand (established there in the 1860s) which moved to Australia about 1890. They were making Iced VoVos at least until 1908.

Another company that were supposedly making Iced VoVos around 1900 was Hardman Biscuits (of Sydney) which had been started by the Hardman brothers after they'd emigrated from England in the 1850s. The Hardmann Biscuit Company was eventually bought by Arnotts, but that seems to have been much later in the 1940s.

And an Arnott's advert from 'The Mercury', 14 June 1904, again mentioning with both VoVos and Mikados:

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Arnotts-vovo-the-mercury-tuesday-14-june-1904-page-3-edit-sml

see:

https://longwhitekid.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/iced-vovos-who-did-it-first/


But I believe Jacob's Biscuits (established in Ireland since 1851) started producing the Mikado biscuit in about 1885 ... which is when all things Japanese were in vogue in Britain (both the Japanese Cultural Exhibition in London, and the debut of Gilbert and Sullivan's comic opera 'The Mikado', were in 1885).
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 04 Nov 2016, 23:02

The Vovo looks like a Mikado that's been run over by a steamroller. Maybe gravity is stronger in the Southern Hemisphere. Or maybe this was how they got round the patenting law.

McCarthy was a leading light in the prestigious Rathmines and Rathgar Operatic Society, which often does G&S's The Mikado even today. Though that's beside the point now that we know he was just another whose confections obviously extended to the verbal.

If I find out they nicked this one I'll be desperately disappointed. This was what one expected from the granny after a trip into town to do the shopping, along with a green-ink biro (something I never understood, though enough of my hand written literature from the period survives to indicate that it persevered for years).

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 05 Nov 2016, 09:29

I wonder if there are any other old hippies out there who remember Frank Zappa'a immortal line: "the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe"? In younger and happier days, I always argued that "apostrophe" here did not refer to the irritating punctuation mark (which has caused so much ill-feeling over the years, often between otherwise good friends), but to the exclamatory figure of speech. The meaning of "crux of the biscuit", however, has always eluded me.

I was amazed that this is still being discussed:

https://www.quora.com/What-does-this-mean-The-crux-of-the-biscuit-is-in-the-apostrophe



Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Quote-the-crux-of-the-biscuit-is-the-apostrophe-frank-zappa-71-76-18
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 05 Nov 2016, 19:03

Not exactly a biscuit, but a Mikado nonetheless - any 2-8-2 steam loco
"The wheel arrangement name "Mikado" originated from a group of Japanese type 9700 2-8-2 locomotives that were built by Baldwin Locomotive Works for the 3 ft 6 in (1,067 mm) gauge Nippon Railway of Japan in 1897. In the 19th century, the Emperor of Japan was often referred to as "the Mikado" in English. Also, the Gilbert and Sullivan opera The Mikado had premiered in 1885 and achieved great popularity in both Britain and America." as wiki would misleadia. Biscuits, along with tea, are required to be placed on the buffer beam at Raven Square station for any arriving train's crew, but the digestive is most favoured if there is a choice.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyMon 07 Nov 2016, 10:14

In the biscuit war scene, there is alarm that the Cafe Noir biscuit recipe has changed - and not available in any taste in my area now. McVities have Hobnobs galore have much to answer for tampering with this small treat. One more thing to add to  a growing list of my delights of fading memory
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 16:08

Christmas biscuits everywhere - a Dutch type sold by Tescos ought be served on top of a steaming cup of coffee to be fully appreciated. I am greatly tempted to try it just to get a selection of remarks. I have a guest coming tomorrow for coffee who says she had better not be offered Family Circle biscuits. What on earth are they? Too late to rush and get some just to be annoying.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 17:14

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 17:15

I was behind a lady in the M&S Food Hall today and she had ten tins of shortbread in her trolley. Nothing else. The tins all featured a large stag and two members of his family (see below). Either someone with an untreated eating disorder, or she had completed all her Christmas present shopping at one fell swoop.


Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 S-l1000

"Family Circle" biscuits! Good grief they are considered naff even in Bootle!  But the "Rover" assortment is even worse: if you wish to shock your friends, get a tin of these, Priscilla - and hand them round from the tin.


Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Rover%20Biscuits.JPG.opt317x300o0,0s317x300
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 17:55

However, I have been reliably informed that Family Circle vintage tins are now a collector's item: they ae sold on EBay!


Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Fffe89d42da3ac07705764873de3e99c


EDIT: I see it says 1kg /2.2ibs on the tin above. I bet one with just the weight of biscuits in pounds and ounces would be more valuable.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 18:11

If you have this biscuit tin, it is worth a fair bit of money (£300). It is the "rude" Huntley and Palmer Ginger Nuts tin. You have to open link to see tin - it won't copy.

http://severnbeachantiques.com/famous-rare-1980-huntley-and-palmer-rude-garden-party-ginger-nuts-tin
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 18:48

Surely the acme of biscuit offence would be to offer her a plate of assorted broken ones? (You used to be able to buy these cheap) - or perhaps a packet (opened, natch) of Tesco basics digestives?
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 20:57

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Surely the acme of biscuit offence would be to offer her a plate of assorted broken ones? (You used to be able to buy these cheap) - or perhaps a packet (opened, natch) of Tesco basics digestives?


A family tale, oft repeated at gatherings:-

My great uncle was in the habit of going into the Co-op on the way home from primary school to buy broken biscuits but one day the conversation went thus:

Wee Bob; "A ha'penny's  worth of broken biscuits please ".

Shop assistant; "Sorry son, we've none today, it's the breaker's day off".

Boom, Boom.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyWed 16 Nov 2016, 21:34

@ferval wrote:
@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Surely the acme of biscuit offence would be to offer her a plate of assorted broken ones? (You used to be able to buy these cheap) - or perhaps a packet (opened, natch) of Tesco basics digestives?


A family tale, oft repeated at gatherings:-

My great uncle was in the habit of going into the Co-op on the way home from primary school to buy broken biscuits but one day the conversation went thus:

Wee Bob; "A ha'penny's  worth of broken biscuits please ".

Shop assistant; "Sorry son, we've none today, it's the breaker's day off".

Boom, Boom.
Reminds me of the hotel my stepfather stayed at once when he went to an away match in - shall we say Norfolk? - . When he asked for toast at breakfast, he was told "The girl who knows the recipe does'nt work on Sundays".
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FrederickLouis
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyThu 15 Dec 2016, 00:12

Marie Biscuits were named after the Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, the wife of Prince Alfred, Queen Victoria's son.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyThu 15 Dec 2016, 08:16

FL wrote:
Marie Biscuits were named after the Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, the wife of Prince Alfred, Queen Victoria's son.

Except in Ireland where Peek Freans products, along with most other English goods, were being boycotted in the mid 1870s. Ireland was in the middle of yet another famine - one that peaked in 1879 and which is generally forgotten these days - and yet again the British political reaction had been simply to raise local duties on exportable foodstuff (turning a famine into potential genocide so the British importers could keep their profit margins healthy). However this time the Irish lower classes, left with rotten potatoes and gruel to eat, responded by refusing to buy any English products dumped on the depressed market, a campaign organised by the newly instituted "Land League", the forerunner to the Irish Independence Party which ultimately designed the new state in the 1920s.  The franchised producer of "Marie" biscuits, Jacobs, decided it best therefore to re-christen them "Marietta" - a name not associated with any royal family, and especially Big Vic's brood, so the middle classes could continue snacking without feeling guilty.

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 510529
Still popular today ...
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyMon 19 Jun 2017, 11:22

I have nearly finished my Queer City: Gay London From the Romans to the Present Day, Peter Ackroyd's excellent new offering: it has been a fascinating read, sometimes funny, more often very sad. This snippet, however, in the final chapter did make me laugh:

"...the Wolfenden Committee was established in 1954 to inquire into the legal status of homosexual acts. The committee comprised the great and the good, but they were neither conventionally 'liberal' nor unprudish in their social attitudes. For the sake of the ladies present at the proceedings, homosexuals were known as Huntleys and prostitutes as Palmers after the well-known firm of biscuit makers."

One wonders what was served with the tea during breaks in the committee's deliberations.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyMon 19 Jun 2017, 14:10

@Temperance wrote:
I have nearly finished my Queer City: Gay London From the Romans to the Present Day, Peter Ackroyd's excellent new offering: it has been a fascinating read, sometimes funny, more often very sad. This snippet, however, in the final chapter did make me laugh:

"...the Wolfenden Committee was established in 1954 to inquire into the legal status of homosexual acts. The committee comprised the great and the good, but they were neither conventionally 'liberal' nor unprudish in their social attitudes. For the sake of the ladies present at the proceedings, homosexuals were known as Huntleys and prostitutes as Palmers after the well-known firm of biscuit makers."

One wonders what was served with the tea during breaks in the committee's deliberations.


Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 10214011_0_640x640


and

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSN9zWOw4hEtQtILG9cmWhPRjs44VLkqYG43YItHDuLCKyP5MO9Rw
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyMon 19 Jun 2017, 14:55

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 6e628683c91aac10ba6ff24505870615
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptyFri 02 Mar 2018, 14:08

Came across this while perusing on this day in history on wiki:

Biscuit Eaters



Bucellarii (the Latin plural of Bucellarius; literally "biscuit–eater", Greek: Βουκελλάριοι) is a term for a unit of soldiers in the late Roman and Byzantine empire, that were not supported by the state but rather by some individual such as a general or governor, in essence being his "household troops".
These units were generally quite small, but, especially during the many civil wars, they could grow to number several thousand men. In effect, the bucellarii were small private armies equipped and paid by wealthy influential people. As such they were quite often better trained and equipped, not to mention motivated, than the regular soldiers of the time. In the 6th century, Belisarius, during his wars on behalf of Justinian, employed as many as 7,000 bucellarii. By this time, the bucellarii were well integrated into the main Roman army, and soon the term came to be applied indiscriminately to well-equipped cavalry troops. Thus, in the 7th century, when the military recruitment areas formed the basis for the Theme system, one of the first themata was that of the Boukellariōn, in the area of Paphlagonia and Galatia, with its capital at Ankara.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 12:50

There was a programme about biscuits on BBC Radio 4 this week. It was not as good as this thread - our survey was much more comprehensive -  and I'm sure the BBC pinched a lot of ideas from us!! The origin of the biscuit name "Jammy Dodger" was discussed - apparently named after the Beano character, Roger the Dodger. Jammy, as well as meaning jammy (as in jam), also means "lucky", of course. I can't remember whether we discussed this here...



Will try to find an iPlayer link.





Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Is?AbKUAfHggo6gSLw_Rqz5eE5Pp5iwjmd4JOiSKxJpMQ0&height=90

A Jammy Dodger
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 13:41

The Foods of England website says that the Jammie Dodger is "A ring of shortcake biscuit adhered to a disc of shortcake biscuit with a very dense jam-like substance so that the filling displays through the hole in the upper ring, very similar to one form of the traditional German Spitzbuben".

Preposterous ... they'll be claiming the British Royal Family is of German ancestry next!

Strictly 'Jammie Dodger' is a proprietary brand name owned exclusively by Burton's of Blackpool and so any similar biscuits by other makers are supposed to call their products 'jam rings' or something like that.

These are proper Burton's Jammie Dodgers with their distictive heart-shaped hole:

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 500-Jammie-Dodger-280906


Last edited by Meles meles on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 20:36; edited 2 times in total
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 14:54

This is a serious point you have raised, MM. Is a Jammy Dodger with a round hole not an authentic Jammy Dodger then?  You will note that the Dodger displayed on the lid of the Rover Assorted BIscuits Selection (see above) has a round hole. The heart-shaped hole came later, I think - another example of a post-modern abomination, as is the awful spelling "jammie" rather than "jammy". But who knows - everything is confusing these days, even biscuits.

The French have got in on the act I see. From the discredited Wiki website:


Similar biscuits are produced by other manufacturers. A version of this biscuit is made in France under the name Gateaux Sables Nappage Fraise by Pat'Boul de Provence. 


Let us hope that, post-Brexit (if that isn't an oxymoron), the production of the French copy of the British Jammy Dodger will cease. I shall raise the issue with our local candidate for the European Parliament election (if we've got one, that is, and if he or she ever shows up on my doorstep).
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 15:25

I note the final paragraph of my message - which contained the "B"-word (Brexit) has not appeared - automatic censor? I suppose we must all be very careful these days about what we say - even in jests about biscuits.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 16:50

These imposters are definitely not Burton's Jammie Dodgers having substituted the heart for a maple leaf.

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Canada-Day-Maple-Leaf-Cookies

Designed to celebrate Canada's federation and independence on 1 July 1867, Canada Day was formerly known as 'Dominion Day' until 1982. Intended for a public holiday in midsummer those cookies look far too Christmassy to me.


Here's an historic biscuit for a date which hasn't yet happened (and probably won't):

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 File


Sales of this Norwegian company's products have received a boost over the last couple of years due to all the free subliminal advertising:

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Api.ngdata-3_170831_112244


And others have jumped on the bandwagon:

Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 Bixit

P.S. Temp, re the 'automatic censor' issue. Was the thing that hasn't appeared something which was cut and pasted from Wiki or was it something which you had written separately?

P.P.S. This is a test - Brexit biscuit.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 17:24

I wrote it, Vizzer. Let's see it appears here. Following my bit from Wiki about the French version of Le Dodger Jammy, I wrote:



Let us hope that, post-Brexit (if that isn't an oxymoron), the production of the French copy of the British Jammy Dodger will cease. I shall raise the issue with our local candidate for the European Parliament election (if we've got one, that is, and if he or she ever shows up on my doorstep).
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PostSubject: Re: Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling   Biscuits; Past, Present and Crumbling - Page 2 EmptySat 27 Apr 2019, 17:31

Ah, the silly Brexit remark has appeared. I hope no offence has been given to anyone, whatever his or her political persuasion, or biscuit preference.

The Canadian JDs look very nice. I'll allow them.
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