Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Are we back to the Thirties? Sat 08 Sep 2018, 00:32
From my thread about the Russia of Putin, where the patriarch Kirill together with him build a new Russian ultraconservative identity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSsQ9d722aU
Together with nordmann I discussed "totalitarism" via the book of Hannah Arendt https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1089-hannah-arendt-and-totalitarism Totalitarism from the interwar period especially the Thirties. As you consider the nowadays Russia it seems to try to use the old totalitarian methods with the help of the also old in that role Orthodox church, nowadays with the willing Patriarch Kirril... In that it can't perhaps not be compared with the old German Nazi empire, but rather with the Spain of the Caudillo Franco, where there was also a close cooperation between Church and State... But there is not only Russia, but there are other ultraright movements, which are present in Europe and become every more and more vociferous, especially in the former Eastern-European countries, especially Hungary and Poland. I saw also a documentary about the Russian influence in the recent US elections which made Trump president, the documentary mentioned also the links between the ultraright Le Pen and the Russian help to win the recent French elections, but that failed...I was however not able to verify the sources of the documentary. Russia must also be pleased with the rightwing Lega Nord in the government of Italy... And as I have seen from the links of the ultraright wing which came recently here in Belgium in the picture "Schild en Vrienden" When I the day before yesterday read about the row about an ultraright wingmovement, I wasn't aware that it would have those consequences in the Belgian politics...and indeed it was much worser than I thought...for instance links with the Orban regime in Hungary, really a bit international right wing links as I see it even with the US... On the French historyboard I wanted to speak about our "White Hoods" in the thread of the Flemish count Louis of Maele and the aid of Charles VI of France to tackle the Ghent revolt against him and on that occasion said that the nowadays Flemish nationalists don't use the bombastic terminology anymore of the in between the wars period as from the Klokke Roeland song: you Jan Yoens, you Arteveldes, tremble in your graves... How wrong I was... Even the 1302 "Schild en Vriend"... A far right movement with a leader studying at the Ghent university..."Schild en Vrienden"...armed resistance and all that... the new Fascist Russia of Putin and Kiryl, a bit "the Caudillo and the Catholic church"? As I studied that in depth the "in between the wars period" (interwar period?) I see more and more nowadays some similarities with that period...am I too pessimistic...Turkey with its leader, again a marriage between state and religion?... Addendum to the previous message.
And it is quite worser than I thought about "Schild en Vrienden"... Some propaganda films from them: I found nothing in English but international right wing propaganda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24mhizyIwI Viktor Orbán meets Schild & Vrienden: "Awaken your nation as soon as possible" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv2wSaqyyx8 In Dutch: http://nl.wikisage.org/wiki/Schild_%26_Vrienden https://goo.gl/PNTRN7 And today I sought further, perhaps can Dirk Marinus help me to summarize what I found in Dutch... As the leader of the movement is fired as a student at the Ghent university I found it strange that the Catholic University of Leuven would under some conditions let him study further overthere. And I read already about links with the ultraconservative Catholics... https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2018/09/07/kul-doesn_t-rule-out-giving-van-langenhove-a-place/ And see I read today in a critical magazine about the links with: https://www.apache.be/2018/03/08/een-school-met-heimwee-naar-het-derde-rijk/?sh=2a1c284c5928ba10f90c0-586738160 A school which is homesick to the Third Reich Neonazi’s, antisemieten en geradicaliseerde geestelijken vinden elkaar in het Oude Klooster Maleizen (Overijse). Dat biedt onderdak aan een fundamentalistische school en herbergt een extreemrechts, ultra katholiek netwerk. Neonazis, antisemites and radicalized ecclesiastics meet each other in the Old Convent Maleizen (Overijse). It accomodate a fundamentalistic school and is the seat of an ultraright, ultracatholic web And as always I look for the sources: https://vjv.vlaanderen/2017/12/11/de-lijdensweg-van-het-recht-op-informatie/ From the Flemish Journalists Organization: Apache: most journalists are from De Morgen, an in my eyes former Socialist leaning quality journal. but wouldn't say that if they did some investigations that they weren't proved right by the facts... And yes according to the article some links with family of politicians in the government and also links with personalities, you guess it, from the Catholic University Leuven...
Tomorrow further comments.
Kind regards from Paul.
Dirk Marinus Consulatus
Posts : 298 Join date : 2016-02-03
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sat 08 Sep 2018, 06:38
Paul,
I am just reading through some of the links you provided before making any comment. This thread could well become an interesting one especially at the present political situation world wide.
Dirk.
Dirk Marinus Consulatus
Posts : 298 Join date : 2016-02-03
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sat 08 Sep 2018, 14:34
Paul,
had a read through some of your links and you have indeed come up with a topic which at present is worthwhile pondering about. It seems to me that "Schild en Vrienden " is some kind of organisation set up or started by students and that already is interesting.
It appears that students are increasingly becoming more interested in local , and upon times also in foreign, politics.
And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey.
Apart from "Schild en Vrienden " in Belgium there are indications of some student,s organisations in Germany and some Balkan countries.
Although there are regular demonstrations organised by students here in the UK ( mainly London area) there seems to be NO evidence of any student organisation aiming to cause public unrest.
But yes, in time to come things can change and we can all remember what organised students can do:
the student led demonstration resulting in the 1989 Tiananmen Square revolution the 1989 so-called Velvet revolution in Czechoslovakia the 2011 Egyptian revolution organised by various youth groups
and going back a few years what about the 1956 revolution in Hungary.
Thus Paul , in other words students organisations have proved over the years that they are a group of people to be reckoned with. Yes, we live in interesting times.:
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sat 08 Sep 2018, 23:48
Dirk Marinus wrote:
Paul,
had a read through some of your links and you have indeed come up with a topic which at present is worthwhile pondering about. It seems to me that "Schild en Vrienden " is some kind of organisation set up or started by students and that already is interesting.
It appears that students are increasingly becoming more interested in local , and upon times also in foreign, politics.
And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey.
Apart from "Schild en Vrienden " in Belgium there are indications of some student,s organisations in Germany and some Balkan countries.
Although there are regular demonstrations organised by students here in the UK ( mainly London area) there seems to be NO evidence of any student organisation aiming to cause public unrest.
But yes, in time to come things can change and we can all remember what organised students can do:
the student led demonstration resulting in the 1989 Tiananmen Square revolution the 1989 so-called Velvet revolution in Czechoslovakia the 2011 Egyptian revolution organised by various youth groups
and going back a few years what about the 1956 revolution in Hungary.
Thus Paul , in other words students organisations have proved over the years that they are a group of people to be reckoned with. Yes, we live in interesting times.:
Dirk thank you for the immediate reply. And thank you too for the link about Egypt.
"And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey."
Yes you are correct and that was one of their aims as I provided in the youtube about the demonstration at the Ghent Gravensteen. But there is more, as most ultra right movements you find everywhere the same ingredients to fashion their "identity" The "manly" structure, the leader, the glorification of power, especially physical power, the making of a common ennemy, before, the Jews and other undesirables and now the migrants (I don't say they aren't a problem, but it is not their way that the difficulties will be solved), and last but not least the ultraconservative church and the old values of religion family (a normal! family). In the convent of Maleizen even "catholic" creationism....A bit à la Pétain in Vichy France...See Poland, see Hungary, see Sweden, see Russia. The question is of course how many real adherents they have in reality..in the case of Russia I doubt that even with all that public bombast, the real adherence is that tremendous great...but yes Hitler started also from that small embryo...and Russia can't be compared with the Spain of Caudillo Franco, because nowadays Russia is not the prewar Spain...
But to return to "Schild en Vrienden" it seems to be "one"! of the many far right small movements in Europe that are growing now with the migrant crisis. And I think the reaction of the government is the right one, not overemphasizing the actuality and do what they have to do...but I am a bit surprized that in the fever of the coming polls that the parties don't use it that much to a right wing party in the government...and this morning looking to the teletext of the French language television I was surprized that they even not mentioned the case today...electoral peace to let not explode future coalitions...
No I don't want to overrate that little party...perhaps best to compare with the Verdinaso in Flemish Belgium in the interwar period...I read about a three thousand members on its apogee...
Posts : 5079 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 12:10
Many of the tactics and a lot of the language coming from Britain’s Conservative government and their supporters in the press are disturbingly reminiscent of that of the German National Socialists in the early 1930s.
A rigged referendum so that the government can thereafter claim it has the "will of the people" to push whatever agenda it wants; a drip-feed of mendacious propaganda through the popular press; the casual labelling of the judiciary as "enemies of the people"; and the vilification of anyone who is not fully behind the great cause as actively working to undermine the state and its population. Just a couple of months ago the Conservative MP David Campbell Bannerman voiced his opinion that even all this drip-feed of hate didn’t go far enough. He wrote (25 July 2018): “It is about time we brought the Treason Act up to date and made it apply to those seeking to destroy or undermine the British state. That means extreme jihadis. It also means those in future actively working undemocratically against U.K through extreme EU loyalty”. There was a swell of outrage by most, though not all, of his fellow MPs but the right wing media continue to push the same agenda.
Meanwhile the language from May and all the other Tory cronies seems to be already trying to put all the blame for the failure to seamlessly Brexit and the rapidly approaching disaster, firmly onto the EU, remainers, judges, business leaders, academics, experts, … indeed anyone but themselves. May has repeatedly demanded that the EU come up with a solution to the Irish Border issue, despite the whole problem being solely a consequence of the UK’s decision to Brexit, while at the same time she repeatedly refuses to countenance all the obvious practical ways out. Meanwhile Raab accuses the EU of failing to negociate in good faith because they refuse to break international laws (laws originally agreed by the UK), or simply fail to see any benefit to themselves by agreeing to the UK’s selfish demands.
This is all very like the Dolchstoßlegende (meaning "stab-in-the-back") – the idea that Germany did not lose the first world war militarily, but was betrayed by the post-war government of the Weimar Republic by defeatists, degenerates, cultural Marxists and of course, Jews. For the conservative and nationalistic Deutsch-Nationale Volkspartei (the German National People's Party or DNVP) the legend fitted perfectly well into their political strategy for mass mobilisation against the Weimar Republic, who they accused of "ruthless persecution of the honest national opposition".
Dolchstoßlegende was largely a myth unsupported, then as now, by any substantial evidence, although it was widely believed in post-WW1 Germany, and it destabilised the Weimar democracy to such a very high degree that it greatly facilitated the rise of National Socialism. It was not necessarily the aggressive conspiracy theory itself that helped the Nazis but rather the breakdown of all political debate. After 1924 the two political camps were not able to communicate anymore: the right-wingers had convinced themselves that the country really had been stabbed in the back by internal elements who they reckoned were still in power, while the democrats were left to discover that any attempt to clarify the events was hopeless as all evidence was simply dismissed as being politically contrived lies (so rather like current attempts to discuss the effects of Brexit are all too often simply dismissed by the leave side as "project fear"). The ‘stab-in-the-back’ tactic is a very old, tried and tested one, but evidently it is still going strong today - the overall politics are largely the same and it’s only the presentation - expensive suits instead of Hugo Boss uniforms - that has changed.
But the real danger to my mind is what happens next. A Britain in deep recession split down the middle by Brexit will be an extremist's dream and the outriders of authoritarianism are already on the march. Brexit might well prove to be the nearest thing to a revolution that the country has experienced since Cromwell. It will certainly give rise to chaos and a thoroughly divided and weakened country for many years, and is likely to poison UK-European relations for at least a generation, with global implications. And the fault lies squarely with those Tory spivs who saw in it an opportunity to forward their own political careers, and their backers who saw a way to make a fortune: their actions are shameless, if not treasonous.
Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy.
Last edited by Meles meles on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:33; edited 2 times in total
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:20
Meles meles wrote:
Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy.
Cassandra's curse wasn't that her prophesies were gloomy, but that they were accurate and no one believed her - so let's hope indeed that you're not emulating poor Cassie.
I was up around the border last month - in towns on both sides of the line and of differing levels of local nationalist or unionist tradition - and got talking to people about the Brexit issue. If anyone in England suspects even a fraction of the bitter feeling of absolute betrayal felt towards them by otherwise reasonable and mild-mannered people in this neck of the woods I imagine they'd seriously need to reconsider any notion of taking a holiday in that corner of the Emerald Isle for a long time to come yet! The nationalists I spoke to were slightly more stoic about the betrayal bit - that much at least they have been educated to expect by their community leaders over the years - but rather novelly shared this idea of having been ruthlessly treated this time with their unionist neighbours, who feel this sense of betrayal most acutely and expressed an absolute conviction that even by historical standards they are deemed immaterial by "mainlanders". One DUP local stalwart, when I asked about the arrangement whereby his party is keeping May in power, likened this to the story of the little boy in Holland who stopped the flood by sticking his finger in the dyke. Except in this new English version the boy was given a few bob to first undertake the venture, and only then realised the enormity of what would happen once his digit was extracted - while those who paid him ran like f*ck to whatever small hump in the wilderness they thought might represent a hill. I related this to a nationalist in Derry, whose answer surprised me - "He said that? Then we're rightly f*cked." Most people I talked to, whether with a particular nationalist or unionist axe to grind or not, agreed that the English had simply proven beyond doubt that in a flawed democracy stupidity will eventually triumph - and remember this is from people who know more than most exactly what they're talking about in this regard.
I agree with your parallels, MM, between Brexit and German society of the late 20s and early 30s, especially with regard to the economic and power-play implications it does indeed portend and which already have marked similarities to those earlier events. However a crucial difference I think that applies in this case is that this self-inflicted act of gross stupidity by the English on the so-called "united" kingdom (from which they always struggled to distinguish themselves in terms of identity anyway and rather stupidly assumed "British" and "English" to be interchangeable terms when it suited them) will unravel the fabric of their society along frayed threads that extend far further back in time than those that the Nazis could exploit in Germany, for example. I'd even up the Cassandra ante a notch and prophesy that, this time, even the most deviously Machiavellian right-wing totalitarian-in-waiting will have a hard time exploiting this meltdown when it eventually reaches full flow.
"Interesting times" as I heard more than once remarked with enigmatic understatement (or maybe just plain sarcastically) by many to whom I spoke on my little fact-finding mission.
PS: The Drumclay crannóg excavation was fascinating - I was lucky enough to coincide with a once-a-year visit by the Queens team to the area and tagged along. Thanks Mary!
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:46
I had written a post but had a message to review it as another post had been entered in the meantime (nordmann's above). My post had disappeared - it's okay nordmann I'll forgive you. Anyway, here goes again, although the extreme right tabloids are not really for me, I think there was (still is) room for reform in the EU. There accusations of there being a 'gravy train' in the EU had some substance though they were probably very much exaggerated. I don't want to derail the thread revisiting my time with the conspiracy theorists when I was laid up but I'll say that a popular one is that the Holocaust was fake - some of the people call YouTube "JewTube" also - and thinking of going back to the 1930s I wouldn't want to see this happen again:- They also seem to hold that the "okay" sign is 666, the mark of the antichrist. [size=36]????[/size]
So Obama and Beyonce and J-Z are controlled by the Illuminati! There must have been lots of nice, normal Germans in Germany in the 1930s but still the Nazis came to power; hopefully the loony tunes on YouTube are a minority but I worry a little about if the got together!
For the avoidance of doubt I don't think Obama and B and J-Z are illuminati puppets. As an aside, I envy you nordmann managing to visit that "dig".
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:55
For some reason the "okay" hand sign emoji did not work when I copied and pasted it - or when I tried entering the unicode sequence so I'll provide the link. https://emojipedia.org/ok-hand-sign/
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:01
Yes, to avoid being a party to the abject stupidity of your co-patriots, it is essential that you first ensure that as an individual you yourself are not prey to stupid generalisations and misinformed opinion posing as fact. For example, if there has been identified a "need for reform" within any system, the logical first step is then to itemise those things that require reformation, at least to your own satisfaction. If and when enough people do this then colectively use the machinery to hand to implement the required reform. If a "gravy train" exists then find out who is on it, who runs the train company, where it's heading, and then derail it - or preferably, simply stop it and put it out of commission using the signals and side-spurs already provided in the rail infrastructure.
All of these measures are forward-thinking, analytical, undramatic, and proven effective in the past when intelligently applied (as they indeed have been, many times, even just within the context of the EU over its existence too). But of course, being an act of reasonable intelligence, they require therefore at minimum an avoidance of gross stupidity, and therein lies the rub ...
Sorry Cassie, we're putting you out of a job, here.
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:06
LiR wrote:
As an aside, I envy you nordmann managing to visit that "dig".
A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact. But the stuff coming out has been remarkable - wicker and worked leather dated conservatively to 500BCE for example. I recommend a visit to the small museum in Enniskillen (but disguise your accent while you're there, or at least wear a sign around your neck that you have Boris sussed), and if you ask politely they may allow you access to the conservation area where they're currently working on some of the finds.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:30
I did vote "Remain" though someone I know (not a silly lady either) said she voted "Leave" because she thinks the EU will collapse in on itself in a few years. The press, or at least some silly members of the press, (and the Beeb wasn't entirely innocent) engaged in divisive broadcasting by taking the line that it was "old" people who voted "Leave". Stuff and nonsense from the press - I'm old and I didn't vote "Leave" and most of the people I know of around my own age from U3A etc also voted "Remain". I'll admit I was surprised when the news announced that the Leavers had won the day after the vote. "First past the post" may have limitations but it's what we have and we have to make the best of it. I wonder how many of those bashing the oldsters actually took the trouble to go and vote.
Are you inferring that I "as an individual" am "prey to stupid opinions and misinformed opinion posing as fact"? I hope my common sense has not entirely deserted me, nordmann. I'm human and can make an error as can anyone and have never claimed to be infallible. I respect your right to disagree with me.
Are feelings that bad that I'd have to disguise my accent? I know someone whose son recently married a lady from Northern Ireland (not sure whether Armagh City or County Armagh). The marriage has taken place since the last time I saw the mother-of-the-groom but it was scheduled to take place at Belfast Castle. I didn't even know there was a castle at Belfast.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:54
Only tangentially connected to the thread really, but I just did an online search about "Belfast Castle" and from what I can see the original Belfast Castle (on a different site) was burnt down and the existing one is more what I would describe as a "county house" https://www.belfastcastle.co.uk/ For me a "real" castle has crenellations and fortifications.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 00:17
Meles meles and nordmann,
thank you very much for your insightful messages. As it is too late to comment...but also for Dirk marinus I want to add to the former message about the far right movement "Schild en Vrienden" that I compared with the Verdinaso of the interwar period and as I see now that I forgot to post the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdinaso And it was that close in our neighbourhood between Ghent and Bruges and still a site I have seen of people nowadays dedicated to the memory of Joris van Severen... And to LiR Interesting documentary from the ZDF that I used years ago on the French forum "How Hitler came to power" Hitler's prise du pouvoir (power grab?): Machtsergreifung. There is automatic translation in English... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWEJt1MhS5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1svq1SG4oC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdSSvIhH3o
Kind regards from Paul.
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 08:22
Use of the generic "you" can lead to conversational confusion. Most languages don't allow it but English can be gloriously nihilistic at times - or as John Updike once remarked "a right tart in her debauched senility, having slept with every language under the sun and looking none the healthier for it". Apologies if it seemed I was singling you out LiR - though your friend who "felt" that the EU would "collapse in on itself" should really be tasked with explaining on what grounds her feeling was based, and indeed pointing out why it is best apparently not to actively engage in preventing this eventuality but instead to inflict an even worse economic fate on one's own country (which I assume she did not really see as extending beyond the English border).
While not an unqualified supporter of the EU, which I see as an amalgam of flawed processes but with rather substantial economic safety nets built into the design rather than as the caricature "bureaucracy for the sake of it" which has become popular among a largely uneducated British public, I still see it as probably the most crucial difference-maker in this badly staged parody of the rise of fascism a la 1930s Europe. This week's pursuance within the European Parliament of an effective censure against Poland's decision to renege on its ethical commitments as an EU member in order to prosecute a populist and extreme rightwing agenda designed to secure and prolong power for its current government regime "at home", for example, is something that might have made a huge difference indeed had Hitler's nascent coalition of dissent held together by a minority fascist element been faced at the outset with something of similar hue, an even greater coalition of European neighbours with the power to reprimand. The true extent of German nationalism as Hitler & Co liked to think conformed in principle and nature to their own narrow definition (and enforced this definition with extreme prejudice afterwards) might at least have been discovered, and democratically too. One cannot really conjecture the full extent of such "what ifs", but it does appear to me that this extra hurdle to clear as he prepared to plummet his adopted country into the grotesque parody of a nation that he ultimately achieved may have proven sufficient to stymie his ambitions, or at least to have moderated them utterly. That is an important check and balance to have in place, one that was missing then (if one discounts the ineffectual League of Nations which imposed no ethical commitments on its members anyway), but one that is present now. Or at least present as long as the majority of Europeans do not fall into the same trap of short-sighted and badly informed stupidity that Britain has.
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 09:23
A quote, “According to The Guardian, the growth of the SD "upended perhaps western Europe’s most stable political order," and other commentators made similar statements.”
In my opinion this article is at present relatively un-biased.
In media in Scandinavia and somewhat in EU countries the SD are ‘not liked’ because of their right-wing tendencies, their criticism of the Swedish immigration policy, and of their EU skepticism.
A ‘hung’ parliament following a muddled election.
Interesting times.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 22:23
A quote, “According to The Guardian, the growth of the SD "upended perhaps western Europe’s most stable political order," and other commentators made similar statements.”
In my opinion this article is at present relatively un-biased.
In media in Scandinavia and somewhat in EU countries the SD are ‘not liked’ because of their right-wing tendencies, their criticism of the Swedish immigration policy, and of their EU skepticism.
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 22:52
nordmann wrote:
A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact.
Toiling around the muddy byways of Fermanagh? Not so much back to the 1930s perhaps as maybe back to the 1910s.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:04
Meles meles,
"Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy."
I don't see it that gloomy and as I see it comparing the different countries Britain is not such a difference to the rest. In my opinion qua democracy it are more the former East Block countries, who have the heaviest tendencies to the far right...I see that up to now, if I interpreted it well Romania is an exception. And on the Brexit I expect in the near future some kind of deal, but I agree the inter Irish border, that nordmann recently visited is a real problem...and yes there are lots of problems (Scotland?) seemingly where one had not thought about in the immediate aftermath of the polls... I hope however that there is no a new worldwide financial crisis in the near future, which is a new "aubaine" (God's send?) for the nationalistic populists on top of the migrant crisis...that are perhaps then again the Thirties...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:21
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:25
Vizzer wrote:
nordmann wrote:
A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact.
Toiling around the muddy byways of Fermanagh? Not so much back to the 1930s perhaps as maybe back to the 1910s.
Vizzer glad to see you once again on this board. I am always looking forward to your contributions.
Kind regards from Paul.
Vizzer Censura
Posts : 1814 Join date : 2012-05-12
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 12 Sep 2018, 23:30
nordmann wrote:
this self-inflicted act of gross stupidity by the English on the so-called "united" kingdom (from which they always struggled to distinguish themselves in terms of identity anyway and rather stupidly assumed "British" and "English" to be interchangeable terms when it suited them)
This annoying phenomenon doesn't get any better and can sometimes come from the most unlikely of quarters. Only today there was a report from Newry on the Channel 4 News. When it concluded the studio anchor Jon Snow informed the viewers that they had just been watching "Paraic O`Brien on the Irish/Anglo border".
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sun 23 Sep 2018, 23:03
Are the right wing Americans now trying to derail the European project by dividing the nations with the rethoric from the Thirties? Yes again Hungary, Poland, Italy. Germany still resisting from their memory? And France: Macron resisting with the Liberals? And after the Russians helped Marine Le Pen, now the right-wing Americans will help her?
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 24 Sep 2018, 03:32
Paul,
Having just skimmed these threads I'd tend to agree with your position, that this person openly wants to form an organisation to co-ordinate right-wingers in Europe, my question to this comes straight from old crime fiction, 'cui bono' or who stand to gain from this?
Where you and I may disagree is regarding the 'European project', where is it heading, is this still open for discussion?
Apparently the EU elïte want to turn it into a kind of superstate, so far this idea has not gone down all that well in the various electorates, if it's such a good idea then why can't they sell it?
That this M Bannon seemingly wants to put all EU skeptics and doubters into his wagon and go merrily away, will perhaps meet some resistance along it's way, at least I hope so.
Kind regards from me as well.
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 10 Oct 2018, 16:39
Boost
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 10 Oct 2018, 22:30
Nielsen wrote:
Boost
Nielsen,
coincidentally I wanted to start the thread again, while I saw this morning a documentary about the influencing of the voters during the Trump campaign by Cambridge Analitica... I had already nearly finished my message when I tried to include this link and suddenly I had a Wiki about "existencialism" nothing at all related and had to close this link and lost my complete message... https://www.businessinsider.nl/cambridge-analytica-executives-and-mercer-family-launch-emerdata-2018-3/?international=true&r=US
To start with this: it seems that the condemned Cambridge Analitica is already started again under another name?
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 10 Oct 2018, 22:31
deleted because double
Last edited by PaulRyckier on Tue 23 Feb 2021, 14:15; edited 2 times in total
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 10 Oct 2018, 22:36
And about the documentary: https://www.idfa.nl/en/film/8d446397-41c2-4cc2-b544-e067e6dcd0d9/unfair-game-how-trump-won And the documentary: It is in French, no problem for MM and me and I am sure you can still watch it in German on ARTE, no problem for Nielsen and me. But there is a device for other languages (click on the wheel) Of course it is odd English but I suppose you will be able to follow...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 10 Oct 2018, 22:59
PS And if I recall it well from the documentary: links from UKIP with Mercer...and also Marine Le Pen...will check...
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Thu 11 Oct 2018, 21:10
"A hedge-fund billionaire who helped bankroll both Donald Trump and Steve Bannon and who is a major shareholder in the controversial data firm Cambridge Analytica, donated $2m to a secretive group that targeted swing states during the 2016 election with anti-Muslim adverts on Facebook and Google, according to an investigative watchdog. Robert Mercer, whose family has reportedly donated $36.6m to Republican candidates since 2010, reportedly gave the money to Secure America Now, an organisation that produced several video advertisements apparently designed to promote anti-Muslim sentiment. One of the advertisements, which was shown to voters in swing states that included Nevada and North Carolina, showed France and Germany as if run under sensationalised version of Sharia law. It showed French schoolchildren being trained to fight for Isis and the Mona Lisa painting covered in a burka. It also showed an image of the Eiffel Tower with a Muslim star and crescent. “Under Sharia law, you can enjoy everything the Islamic State of France has to offer, as long as you follow the rules,” said the narrator of one the adverts, that appeared as if it was a travel promotion."
"donated $2m to a secretive group that targeted swing states during the 2016 election with anti-Muslim adverts on Facebook and Google, according to an investigative watchdog."
In the documentary (have to seek it back on what minute) it was said that Trump won the elections thanks to 66,000 votes in three swing states: Wisconsin was one of them, if I recall it well... And C A made a strategy nearly obtained with computer simulations, where the individuals of three swing states, most influenceable, based on the computer models that they had made from their Face book and other mass media. In the documentary they speak from types of individuals based on five criteria...and where you can pick up the influenceable ones in certain local communities to target them as a group or even at individual level...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Thu 11 Oct 2018, 21:19
And about the documentary: https://www.idfa.nl/en/film/8d446397-41c2-4cc2-b544-e067e6dcd0d9/unfair-game-how-trump-won And the documentary: It is in French, no problem for MM and me and I am sure you can still watch it in German on ARTE, no problem for Nielsen and me. But there is a device for other languages (click on the wheel) Of course it is odd English but I suppose you will be able to follow...
From the wiki about Cambridge Analitica: CA's data analysis methods were to a large degree based on the academic work of Michal Kosinski. In 2008, Kosinski had joined the Psychometrics Centre of Cambridge University where he then developed with his colleagues a profiling system using general online data, Facebook-likes, and smartphone data.[45][46] He showed that with a limited number of "likes", people can be analysed better than friends or relatives can do and that individual psychological targeting is a powerful tool to influence people.[45] CA would collect data on voters using sources such as demographics, consumer behaviour, internet activity, and other public and private sources. According to The Guardian, CA used psychological data derived from millions of Facebook users, largely without users' permission or knowledge.[47] Another source of information was the "Cruz Crew" mobile app that tracked physical movements and contacts and according to the Associated Press, invaded personal data more than previous presidential campaign apps.[48] .mw-parser-output .templatequote{overflow:hidden;margin:1em 0;padding:0 40px}.mw-parser-output .templatequote .templatequotecite{line-height:1.5em;text-align:left;padding-left:1.6em;margin-top:0}
Quote :
Today in the United States we have somewhere close to four or five thousand data points on every individual ... So we model the personality of every adult across the United States, some 230 million people. — Alexander Nix, chief executive of Cambridge Analytica, October 2016.[1]
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Thu 11 Oct 2018, 22:01
Nielsen,
what I want to say with all this, is not about the American elections of Trump, but more about the far right more and more winning in the world nowadays and many times backed by rich people from the background... And I am most worried by our Atlantic West and also Australia, New Zealand, Canada, who shared that common Western ideal of democracy... Putin's Russia I have compared with the interwar Caudillo Spain and up to now Russia has always had an authoritarian regime, not to say dictatorship... And now China with the new Emperor is also not an anomaly compared with the past... But the Western world, especially Europe, which on the ruins of WWII build a new society together with the British minded Australia, New Zealand, Canada...together with the US...when they can't promote the democracy anymore as an example for the others...
No nowadays we seem to be back in the Thirties, where everywhere there was a shift to the right, even extreme right... Italy, Germany, Spain, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Greece, Slovakia, Belgium, the Netherlands, France Everywhere the new rightist leaders spoke about nationality, the own folk (les citoyens de souche), we and the others...they would once clean that Augias stable of those putrified democracies and establish a new bright "order"... Of course it were all populist fata morganas and once they had the power and a strong repressive apparatus, as nordmann mentioned about Hannah Arendt...not to say that the extreme left ideals and working out were not identical at the end... And as now they used the newest techologies from then as radio, planes to move quickly from one political meeting to they other, in one word mass communication to reach as much people as possible...
Kind regards from Paul.
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Fri 12 Oct 2018, 10:43
Thank you, Paul,
I think we agree on the western kind of democracies being a minority among the other kinds of 'cracies on this Earth where we are living.
What I'm still questioning is the ability of the - at present - reigning elïte of the EU to define where they want this entity to go, and to formulate this in a way that's understandable and palatable to majorities in the - at present - 28 electorates.
Until this happens I think we are destined to sway from left to right and back again, with the bureacracies of the EU among the sole ones satisfied with the courses permitting themselves privileges while others are denied basic rights. Such swaying might make people sick and say, 'We want off this wagon'. Hopefully not ending the same way as the end of the League of Nations.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sun 14 Oct 2018, 23:15
Nielsen wrote:
Thank you, Paul,
I think we agree on the western kind of democracies being a minority among the other kinds of 'cracies on this Earth where we are living.
What I'm still questioning is the ability of the - at present - reigning elïte of the EU to define where they want this entity to go, and to formulate this in a way that's understandable and palatable to majorities in the - at present - 28 electorates.
Until this happens I think we are destined to sway from left to right and back again, with the bureacracies of the EU among the sole ones satisfied with the courses permitting themselves privileges while others are denied basic rights. Such swaying might make people sick and say, 'We want off this wagon'. Hopefully not ending the same way as the end of the League of Nations.
Nielsen,
I wanted today to reply about your EU 28, but now too early in the morning...want to go to bed...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 16 Oct 2018, 23:43
Nielsen,
"What I'm still questioning is the ability of the - at present - reigning elïte of the EU to define where they want this entity to go, and to formulate this in a way that's understandable and palatable to majorities in the - at present - 28 electorates.
Until this happens I think we are destined to sway from left to right and back again, with the bureacracies of the EU among the sole ones satisfied with the courses permitting themselves privileges while others are denied basic rights. Such swaying might make people sick and say, 'We want off this wagon'. Hopefully not ending the same way as the end of the League of Nations."
When in a similar thread on Historum, some UKIP like Americans spoke about that bureaucracy, I made a comparison between the US and the EU, when one compared the US federal bureaucracy with the EU there was a lot more in the US than in the EU (have to seek it back again overthere). At the start the EGKS (ECCS?) oops I see now that it is the: ECSC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community There was not only aim of economic integration but also to avoid war in the future by that. "The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible"[3] which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step. The Treaty would create a common market for coal and steel among its member states which served to neutralise competition between European nations over natural resources, particularly in the Ruhr"
Nielsen, again already half past midnight overhere and to go up early...will elaborate further tomorrow...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Thu 18 Oct 2018, 00:06
And from those founding fathers (I know it is an EU site with the danger of bias ) https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history/founding-fathers_en there was always some dual thinking of economic convergence and of mutual support and solidarity to avoid the emergence again from the in the 19th century born nationalities, each one with their "roman national". And those 19th century national myths don't die that easy... Look for instance to Belgium, an entity, which exist already nearly 400 years and as part of the Low Countries "de landen van herwaarts over" even 600 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminology_of_the_Low_Countries Les pays de par deçà: used by 15th century Burgundian rulers who resided in the Low Countries, meaning "the lands over here". On the other hand, Les pays de par delà or "the lands over there" was used for their original homeland Burgundy (central France).[24
In the 19th century, the century of nationalism, (I agree with forerunners in the 18th century) the victorious countries in Europe tried to reinstore the Low Countries again under the rule of William I, but during the 300 preceding years the two halves were grown apart and it came again to the status quo ante. But in that new entity there came already trouble after a fifty years, because of a ruling francophone class and an economic difference between the South of Belgium and the North, where the South was economic better off than the North, what resulted in a lower social status of the North. But that North spoke Dutch dialects and were ruled by a French speaking bourgoisie. There emerged in the North a Flemish movement, which created, in the trend of the century, a "roman national" with heros from the struggle with France to point to that French speaking bourgoisie, which represented that France by their culture and their interests. And after WWII the three countries of the former Low Countries, even yet in London, which had seen to what all those nationalistic feelings could lead had made a pact that later ended in the Benelux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux And the old ennemies Germany and France, after all that misery of WWII, came together too. I find still the economic and social impact of the Airbus on the Toulouse region in France one of the proves to what cooperation can lead... And then you had the later story of the EU, everytime with the same thinking behind...
But the old hydra of the 19th century is still present, national movements are strong again, in Belgium we have the Flemish nationalists, Catalunia, Poland, Hungary... And the migrant crisis is of course a god's gift for the nationalistic movements as in the Netherlands (Nederland is vol (Netherland is full)), even in Italy, and the North and the South seems on that anti immigrant part now be on one line... But while the migrant crisis works for the nationalistic right wing populists, they rather stay aside instead to help with solutions as the war against the smugglers (smugglers of humans. it seems it is now more interesting than drugs trade) and other measurements to counter the tide. Help to pacify the countries at war, so that the exiles can return to their homeland?
But I fear that if above this migrant crisis there comes again a banking and economic crisis, we are really with these populists and their followers again in the Thirties, as I am not sure as even in the 21th century the resistence from the rest will be strong enough to resist and stay democratic, as that rest has to do the work and can't work with hollow slogans that don't solve any problem.
Tomorow some further thoughts...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 03 Dec 2018, 22:55
From my former message.
"But the old hydra of the 19th century is still present, national movements are strong again, in Belgium we have the Flemish nationalists, Catalunia, Poland, Hungary... And the migrant crisis is of course a god's gift for the nationalistic movements as in the Netherlands (Nederland is vol (Netherland is full)), even in Italy, and the North and the South seems on that anti immigrant part now be on one line... But while the migrant crisis works for the nationalistic right wing populists, they rather stay aside instead to help with solutions as the war against the smugglers (smugglers of humans. it seems it is now more interesting than drugs trade) and other measurements to counter the tide. Help to pacify the countries at war, so that the exiles can return to their homeland?
But I fear that if above this migrant crisis there comes again a banking and economic crisis, we are really with these populists and their followers again in the Thirties, as I am not sure as even in the 21th century the resistence from the rest will be strong enough to resist and stay democratic, as that rest has to do the work and can't work with hollow slogans that don't solve any problem."
Thinking about the Thirties again today, I remembered what my father told me about these years in Belgium. He knew all kind of songs in Dutch from both the right wing and left wing paramilatary organisations, as the VNV, Verdinaso, REX.And as my father told the right-wing manifestations were dirupted by Socialists and Communists (a bit as I read in France too) And they all had a colour. I thought the Socialist/Communists had the colour red, but after an intensive research they appeared to only act as citizen without uniform. And BTW the Communists weren't that strong in Belgium, only 5% in 1939. When searching for the colours I came to interesting sites: https://journals.openedition.org/lerhistoria/3560 War in Peace: Paramiltary Violence in Europe after the Great War by Robert Genwarth and John Home https://goo.gl/MTwCys http://www.cegesoma.be/docs/media/Bibliographies/Bibliography_ESF.pdf
Where it all can lead to I saw this afternoon in a documentary about the Russian and German footage during WWII of the Shoa. It is in French or German. I checked and no English... When I wrote "German" I thought about Nielsen. Dirk, do you know from Jiglu if something happened to him? https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/055147-000-A/shoah-les-oublies-de-l-histoire/
Kind regards from Paul.
Dirk Marinus Consulatus
Posts : 298 Join date : 2016-02-03
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 04 Dec 2018, 11:03
Paul
About your "When I wrote "German" I thought about Nielsen. Dirk, do you know from Jiglu if something happened to him?"
As far as I know nothing has happened to him he is still contributing on the Jiglu board and more than likely takes it now a bit easy like what I do.
Dirk
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 04 Dec 2018, 21:00
Dirk, thank you very much for your immediate reply. I am relieved that there is nothing with Nielsen. I wanted to ask it on Jiglu too and wanted to say why I am not visiting Jiglu that much, only from Chris about the Syrian War. I receive your discussions each day and am a bit sad to not have time to talk to Tas, one of the friends of the first hour on the BBC. But I spent already each day some three à four hours for the boards, mostly for here, but also doing research and contributing to Passion Histoire and from time to time for Historum, when I am interested (some 2 % of the messages on General and European History, the only fora that I visit. And I know I lose time by doing research for trivial items, but you know me, once I am interested I seek to the bottom as in the time your Russian from the Tsar family escaped to England...(and there is still a French language Canadian, who is busy with the question and has written a book about it. I suppose he has even an English forum), and I di the same for you when you asked about "Gladio"...when I did research yesterday about the paramilitary organisations the whole Google started with endless Gladio articles...it seems to be still actual... I will ask Nielsen via PM if he can take a minute's view each day on this board so that I am in peace about his "being alife and kicking"... Dirk, when thinking about it, you have to be the "doyen" of this board, I don't even dare to ask your age, but being a youngster in 1940, when the Germans invaded at Groningen...and still that busy with thinking and intervening overhere and on Jiglu...you have to have a good health...at least seen from here and from your interesting messages...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 05 Dec 2018, 21:44
Témoignages de l’indicible horreur de la Shoah, les images de la libération des camps se sont imprimées dans la mémoire collective. Mais qu’en est-il des trois millions de juifs qui périrent sur le sol soviétique ? Le 22 juin 1941, Hitler lance la Wehrmacht à l’assaut de l’URSS, faisant voler en éclats le pacte germano-soviétique signé en août 1939. Dès le début de l’offensive, Staline mobilise le pouvoir de l’image pour dresser la patrie contre l’envahisseur. Il dépêche sur le front des opérateurs de prises de vues tels que Roman Karmen, Otilia Reisman ou Mark Troïanovski. Armés de leurs petites caméras Eyemo, ils filment l’immense désolation des territoires foulés par l’ennemi. Amorcée à la fin de l’année 1941, la reconquête révèle l’ampleur du crime : dans le sillage de l’Armée rouge, les opérateurs découvrent les traces des exécutions de masse perpétrées par les Einsatzgruppen – ou groupes mobiles d’intervention –, avec la collaboration de nationalistes des pays baltes et d’Ukraine, contaminés par la théorie du "complot judéo-bolchevique". Pourtant, ce n’est qu’en recoupant leurs images avec celles des Allemands qu’apparaît la spécificité du génocide juif. Car rapidement, la propagande stalinienne s’emploie à gommer la judéité des victimes, à universaliser le martyre, pour fédérer le peuple dans la lutte contre le IIIe Reich. https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/055147-000-A/die-grauen-der-shoah-dokumentiert-von-sowjetischen-kameramaennern/
Die weltbekannten Filmaufnahmen von der Befreiung der Konzentrationslager waren lange die einzigen Dokumente, die der Shoah im kollektiven Gedächtnis ein Gesicht gaben und den Horror ansatzweise greifbar machten. Doch was wissen wir von den drei Millionen Juden, die auf sowjetischem Boden ums Leben kamen? Nach Unterzeichnung des Hitler-Stalin-Paktes 1939 hatte die UdSSR die baltischen Länder und den östlichen Teil Polens annektiert. In diesen Ländern und in der Ukraine werden sich die größten Massaker abspielen: Millionen sowjetischer Zivilisten werden ermordet und mit ihnen die ganze jüdische Bevölkerung. In den von der Wehrmacht eroberten Gebieten betreiben sogenannte Einsatzgruppen aus Polizei und Waffen-SS eine mörderische Jagd ohnegleichen. Die Bilder, die bei der Öffnung der sowjetischen Archive rund 60 Jahre nach Kriegsende ans Licht kamen, enthüllen nun das ganze Ausmaß dieses Dramas. Zusammen mit deutschen, litauischen und ukrainischen Aufnahmen erzählen sie vom Holocaust jenseits der offiziellen Geschichtsschreibung und von diesem vergessenen Massenmord am jüdischen Volk. Ab 1941 wurden sowjetische Kameramänner an die Front geschickt, um das festzuhalten, was Stalin den „Großen Vaterländischen Krieg“ nannte. Ihre Bilder sollten das sowjetische Volk davon überzeugen, gemeinsam gegen den Nationalsozialismus zu kämpfen. Ununterbrochen und bis zum Kriegsende filmten diese Männer die Gräueltaten des Feindes – zur Bewahrung der nationalen Einheit wurde jedoch verschwiegen, dass die jüdische Bevölkerung zu den ersten Opfern der Besatzer gehörte.
I have now seen the whole film. And while I thought it was a documentary about the footage of war cameramen and as mentioned war films from the great Dovzhenko, it is instead in my opinion a complaint against the Russians (in that time the Soviets) that they have concealed the "Shoa par balles" (the Shoa with bullets) and have instead mixed them with all the Soviet citizens, who perished in mass graves by bullets and used that for the propaganda to strengthen the war effort and zeal among the general Soviet population. And de jure they were right, while this Jewish population were all Soviet citizens. As an aside: I saw start of het Sixties a 70 mm cinemascope Russian film (Ben Hur quality) in Ostend. It was copied on such war film propaganda by Dovzhenko and it was unbelievable good from filmic and poetic quality and by those qualities one could forget the obliged incorporated Soviet propaganda drivel... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Flaming_Years I could see it this evening streaming (so called for free) and indeed sought for years to see it again, but I am afraid of some infection of the computer. If Vizzer, who knows about Russian films, has enough knowledge to copy it without danger I would be grateful to him...
No I have still the feeling that the Germans and French are trying to forget their Nazi period or their Pétain period, by contrasting it with also war crimes as from the Russians for the Germans and for the Pétainists as being for the good of the French population...I have had together with others endless discussions against Pétainists (Pétain has acted for the good of the French and Pétainists mostly in nowadays French right wing parties) In Germany one had the Historikerstreit as an example of that phenomena There was also the series "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" which I discussed I think with Germans on Historum... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_War Several German historians criticised the film. The historian Ulrich Herbert wrote that the film showed Nazis as "others", different from "Our Mothers and Fathers". It showed all Germans as victims. The film showed nothing of the love and trust that Hitler inspired in German youth, or of the widespread belief that Germany deserved to rule Europe. In reality, he wrote, these "mothers and fathers" were a highly ideological and politicised generation, who wanted Nazi Germany to win victory, because that would be right.[33] The historian Habbo Knoch said that the film failed to show how the Nazi system functioned. The film showed 20-year-old characters who became victims of war, but missing were the 30- to 40-year-old Germans who built the Nazi system and supported it out of a mixture of conviction and self-interest. The film should have shown those who profited from the Nazi system.[32] A critic in the Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger called the film kitschy, devoid of deeper meaning, and morally worst, full of pathetic self-pity. The film's message was "We perpetrators (of war crimes) didn't have an easy time."[34] In the German Jewish weekly Jüdische Allgemeine [de], Jennifer Nathalie Pyka wrote that the achievement of the producers of Generation War lay in producing a film about World War II in which the troublesome question of how six million Jews were killed had been simply blanked out and omitted. The film provided an epiphany for those who had always known that not only Jews were Hitler's victims, but more important – all Germans were Hitler's victims.[4]
I saw for instance also a ZDF (German television) documentary about the last days of East Prussia. And that whole documentary was about the Germans as victims, which was of course the reality. But they forgot to emphasize that a lot of the atrocities were triggered by the hate about what Germans had done in Russia (of course increased by the Soviet war propaganda)
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Dec 2018, 09:48
My comment will not be as erudite as my fellow Res Historians who have made statements on this thread. With the perceived anonymity of the internet I have seen a lot of racist comments on some websites (not here). I do have concerns about immigration into the UK but that is more because of the numbers of people coming to a small country than because of whence the would-be immigrants came. There are people out there with strange ideas though - calling the Holocaust the "Holohoax" (though people on Res Hist probably already know that).
If one is considering a possible return to the sort of poverty that was around in the 1930s - I was discussing this with some acquaintances fairly recently and we thought that there would be a period of austerity following Brexit. I have mixed feelings about Brexit. I actually voted "Remain" but if the majority of people (at least of those who could be bothered to turn out to vote) voted "Leave" we have to respect it. I know it's impossible to return to perceived halcyon days in the past (I did say "perceived") - I've been wracking my brains to try and think if there are any industries the UK could do independently but the car industry has virtually disappeared and the supplies of clay the potteries in Stoke used to use are depleted. A work colleague told me over 30 years ago that a relative of his that worked in that industry said they used (then at least) clay imported from Korea. So I haven't many ideas. Unless everybody starts working online. Unless one has a very specialist skill that doesn't pay a whole bunch of money - it's okay for me to do typing online because I also have my pension albeit finite but the online work wouldn't support me if it were my only source of income.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Mon 10 Dec 2018, 21:53
LadyinRetirement wrote:
My comment will not be as erudite as my fellow Res Historians who have made statements on this thread. With the perceived anonymity of the internet I have seen a lot of racist comments on some websites (not here). I do have concerns about immigration into the UK but that is more because of the numbers of people coming to a small country than because of whence the would-be immigrants came. There are people out there with strange ideas though - calling the Holocaust the "Holohoax" (though people on Res Hist probably already know that).
If one is considering a possible return to the sort of poverty that was around in the 1930s - I was discussing this with some acquaintances fairly recently and we thought that there would be a period of austerity following Brexit. I have mixed feelings about Brexit. I actually voted "Remain" but if the majority of people (at least of those who could be bothered to turn out to vote) voted "Leave" we have to respect it. I know it's impossible to return to perceived halcyon days in the past (I did say "perceived") - I've been wracking my brains to try and think if there are any industries the UK could do independently but the car industry has virtually disappeared and the supplies of clay the potteries in Stoke used to use are depleted. A work colleague told me over 30 years ago that a relative of his that worked in that industry said they used (then at least) clay imported from Korea. So I haven't many ideas. Unless everybody starts working online. Unless one has a very specialist skill that doesn't pay a whole bunch of money - it's okay for me to do typing online because I also have my pension albeit finite but the online work wouldn't support me if it were my only source of income.
Thank you so much, Lady in retirement, for your honest statements from a modest person not having a possibility for a reaction in that big machinery, which acts independent from your will. A bit as some humble people in the Thirties too. But I have now studied the way to power of Hitler in the last 16 years to the slightest detail, but he came socalled legally to power, I agree in some manipulated tricks as the orchestered might of the street. But he had the legal two thirds of the vote needed in the parliament, the same as with Pétain, Pétain came also legally to power. All to say that one has to go to vote in a democratic country as long it is still possible. And one has to try to see through the populist lies as from a Steve Bannon and Marine Le Pen present in Belgium invited by the Vlaams Belang (the former Vlaams Blok) and so I come back on the Belgian and European polls of May. It is our duty as Belgian in May to have learned from the lessons we received this last year and vote consequentely "in honour and conscience" as they say overhere. And during the turmoil last week it was said that among others this immigration question was the big question in the Brexit debate, and I agree that it is a real proplem, but instead of the populist lamenting one has to seek for solutions and rather together than each one in his own "corner" (country). I see that the UK was also at Marrakech today. But I agree with nordmann it is the task of a free press to give real information and of a "neutral" (as possible...the BBC?) government to start a public debate in detail, what the problems are in pro and in contra, before any voting goes ahead in important questions. I saw on 8 PM the speech of Macron on TF1 and reactions of the yellow vests on the streets and I said already communists, but I have to review my opinion, it is anger of the "modest" people in the street (of course usurpated by the professional trouble makers), who have no channel anymore via the Socialists to express that opinion in the goverment) I am glad that Macron also mentioned the big fortunes with their escape tax evasion routes, but as he said when too much tax on the big business they part form France and that is even worser for the modest French (wo)man. And it proves that one needs a global action on all this and the big countries (not sure if even China is not in the club) seems not to be ready to allow this anti tax evasion measurements to let happen. The measurements Macron announced starting from next year have as I saw a cost for the government I saw in a hurry ammounts of 4 milliard (billion?) Euros for one item on the TF1. And the government can only pay to the people what it earns as taxes from that same public. And the highening of the purchase power is only a good measurement as long as it is spent in own land and not in China or has an equivalent in other bilateral ggod and services exchanges. But yes as I saw from a grafic from the better economy the upper quintiel has most proffit increase, the middle only a bit and the lower class has less, thus the better economy has not triggered a better income for the lower class...
Kind regards from your friend Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Dec 2018, 13:09
The press in Britain is not 100% neutral (well that's my opinion). Much of it is right wing though The Guardian is somewhat left wing and very left wing there is The Morning Star. Whether The Independent is truly independent (and I think it only has an online presence now, no paper journal) I can't really hazard a guess. I am glad that The Guardian and The Morning Star exist because they do provide something different from the right wing press. The BBC used to be neutral - now it's hard to know. Of course, during my lifetime many newspapers have gone out of print. My late parents used to take The News Chronicle but that went out of print many, many years ago and then they (my parents) took The Daily Mail (always right wing but not so "tabloid" in those days) - of course now its online version has gone quite gossipy (I really am not that bothered whether Countesses Megs and Kate get on - there is a rumour that they don't but I take gossip with a hefty grain of salt). Don't get me wrong I like some lightweight fodder in my reading/viewing matter because many events happening now are deadly serious. I posted before about something I'd seen (thanks to the YouTube algorithm again) whereby Sky News had misreported something Tommy Robinson said. (He had his brother-in-law record what happened surreptitiously on a mobile phone). I'm not one of the people shouting "Tommy Tommy Tommy" but I don't agree with misreporting what people have said (Sky edited the interview to make what he had said sound worse than it actually was).
Edit - of course Megs and Kate are Duchesses rather than Countesses.
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Wed 12 Dec 2018, 00:13; edited 1 time in total
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Dec 2018, 13:21
Addendum to previous post - I'm not saying we don't have ANY investigative journalism in the UK nowadays but there is certainly a lot less of it. As touched on above, much of that may be due to the decline in numbers of daily (or even Sunday) newspapers in this country. Of course, where nordmann has mentioned "neutral" reporting, that does not necessarily entail reporting of an investigative nature, just for the reporter to give an accurate account of what happened and not "spin" the story in a false way. Because I had a problem with my TV I watched some things on YouTube (Sky News have a live stream on that platform). I read something recently that many younger people get their information from Netflix and YouTube - now I'm not saying that "reporters" on those platforms cannot be sound but anybody with a camera and a microphone and recording software can be a "reporter" nowadays and some of them really are "out there".
Until I get my TV licence sorted out I am avoiding BBC TV (mentioned yesterday I paid for it by keying things into the phone and had received no new licence - emailed TVLicensing and they say have no record of any money from me - though when I checked the money is showing as having gone out of my bank account). I think I can listen to the BBC radio without a licence though.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Tue 11 Dec 2018, 23:05
LiR, thank you very much for the survey of the free press in the UK. And in my opinion it is a good thing that there is a balance between right and left as from mixing the two approaches one can perhaps learn a bit more about the whole situation. What wonders me in the UK and also in Germany where one is also with two parties left and centre and now also far right, but the Liberals only some 5% in Germany? And perhaps not that much more in Britain. Is it because the Liberal democrats are not real Liberal democrats? Perhaps can MM, Vizzer or others enlighten us? In Belgium we have the three fractions: Center liberal, center christian-democrats and Socialists and there papers: The liberal: het laatste nieuws (the latest news) (more tabloid), the christen-democrat: het nieuwsblad (the newspaper) and the socialist: de morgen (the morning) and in my opinion they give a rather honest summary of the national politics, no need to go to a radical press or it has to be for very specific items.
But it was not that what I wanted to say this evening, but an addition to my thread and comparison with the Thirties. This evening I read an interview in the "Nieuwsblad" with Steve Bannon, who was together with Marine Le Pen overhere on the invitation of the far right party "het Vlaams Belang". First Steve gave the impression that he already all knew about the reporter...when the reporter was wondering about that, Bannon said it is for that that you are "allowed" to visit me...
I had a quick search on the internet...to be honest more than a quarter of an hour to find that article back of the "nieuwsblad" and you don't believe it...nothing...all kind as the shots in Strassbourg and so on and so on...but nothing about the interview...perhaps the nieuwsblad only reacts on what is most read? and not interesting enough for the general public?...and then they have a right wing Europe of the "Nations" without knowing it...
Further with the interview. It brought me again back to the Thirties.... as Bannon spoke again about the anonymous international economic and financial mights on which the modest worker has no influence and only can act from his own "nation" to defend himself against that globalist monster: really a "national" "socialism" with which the Brown Skirts are started too in the Weimar Germany of that time to undermine it...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3301 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Wed 12 Dec 2018, 09:33
Well it was just my view of the situation with the press in the UK, Paul. I'm not saying it is everybody in the UK, but there is a section of the population of the country that doesn't trust mainstream media. Some years ago there was a scandal in the BBC (you may even have heard about it in Belgium). The subject was on the surface a person of humble birth who had beaten the odds and made a success of his life. There was a media personality called Jimmy Savile who looked weird (always wore shell suits even if going to posh events) but he did lots of raising money for charity but after his death some unsavoury facts about him came out - he was a paedophile and there is a notion that some of the people round him knew what he was like including people at the BBC. So since then some people have had a mistrust of the BBC. Then again some folk don't like paying the BBC licence especially if they hardly ever watch it. It's not any more expensive to pay the BBC licence than to pay for a cable or satellite station though. There is a section of the population who are turning away from mainstream media (though I think they are still a minority) and getting their news from alternative sources - like YouTube. I like YouTube for its "how to" videos but as I have mentioned more than once before it has a crazy side. I guess YouTube is only as good as the people who use it.
What is happening in Strasbourg - well in France generally - is disconcerting. Although I haven't seen her for many years, decades, a college friend of mine lives in Colmar now (she married someone from there though she met him in England). Of course Colmar is some miles distant from Strasbourg but one can't help feeling unsettled.
Oh about the Liberals in England. Historically (sorry if you knew this already) the Liberals were the continuation of what had been the Whig party (who represented the very rich landowners - well the very rich generally as opposed to the Tories [whose successor party is the Conservatives] who were aligned with the more moderately rich). This is over simplifying a lot* but the Liberals declined in numbers greatly after the Labour Party gained traction. I think the Liberal Democrats lost favour with many people after the 2010 general election when they formed an alliance with the Conservatives - they had said in their manifesto that they would do something about student loans (they MAY have said they would stop them but I'm typing this from memory - will have to look back over news articles of the time to be certain) and then went back on their promise, so lost some of their following (and they were a minority party anyway). Something from Wikipedia about when the Liberals merged with the Social Democrats in the 1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)
* If anyone else visiting the board can explain the decline of the Liberal Party in a more erudite and clear fashion than myself please do so.
Vizzer Censura
Posts : 1814 Join date : 2012-05-12
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Fri 14 Dec 2018, 20:09
LadyinRetirement wrote:
the Liberals declined in numbers greatly after the Labour Party gained traction.
That’s pretty much it LiR. The Liberals also suffered from a double-whammy early on from which they never really recovered.
The first whammy was the split in the Liberal Party which occurred during the First World War between those who supported former prime minister H H Asquith and those who supported the incumbent David Lloyd George. The former group viewed Lloyd George as someone who had stabbed Asquith in the back when Lloyd George had sided with Bonar Law’s Conservatives in a coup which had ousted Asquith from 10 Downing Street in December 1916. Lloyd George had then become the new Prime Minister in a coalition with stronger Conservative representation that had existed in Asquith’s coalition government.
The second whammy was the 1918 General Election. The ‘Coupon election’ (which took place 100 years ago today) saw Lloyd George and Bonar Law grant coupons to those candidates who had the favour of the Coalition Government. Needless to say that any Liberal who supported Asquith received no coupon. The result was an almost complete wipeout of the Asquith Liberals at the polls and even Asquith himself lost his seat. That election also saw the Irish Parliamentary Party (sometime allies of the Liberals) replaced by Sinn Fein as the dominant party in Ireland. And while that contest was outside the orbit of the coupon system, Sinn Fein’s abstention policy vis-a-vis Westminster meant that the Coalition would further be weighted in favour of the Conservatives and Unionists.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sat 15 Dec 2018, 21:34
Vizzer wrote:
LadyinRetirement wrote:
the Liberals declined in numbers greatly after the Labour Party gained traction.
That’s pretty much it LiR. The Liberals also suffered from a double-whammy early on from which they never really recovered.
The first whammy was the split in the Liberal Party which occurred during the First World War between those who supported former prime minister H H Asquith and those who supported the incumbent David Lloyd George. The former group viewed Lloyd George as someone who had stabbed Asquith in the back when Lloyd George had sided with Bonar Law’s Conservatives in a coup which had ousted Asquith from 10 Downing Street in December 1916. Lloyd George had then become the new Prime Minister in a coalition with stronger Conservative representation that had existed in Asquith’s coalition government.
The second whammy was the 1918 General Election. The ‘Coupon election’ (which took place 100 years ago today) saw Lloyd George and Bonar Law grant coupons to those candidates who had the favour of the Coalition Government. Needless to say that any Liberal who supported Asquith received no coupon. The result was an almost complete wipeout of the Asquith Liberals at the polls and even Asquith himself lost his seat. That election also saw the Irish Parliamentary Party (sometime allies of the Liberals) replaced by Sinn Fein as the dominant party in Ireland. And while that contest was outside the orbit of the coupon system, Sinn Fein’s abstention policy vis-a-vis Westminster meant that the Coalition would further be weighted in favour of the Conservatives and Unionists.
Vizzer and LiR,
"Oh about the Liberals in England. Historically (sorry if you knew this already) the Liberals were the continuation of what had been the Whig party (who represented the very rich landowners - well the very rich generally as opposed to the Tories [whose successor party is the Conservatives] who were aligned with the more moderately rich). This is over simplifying a lot* but the Liberals declined in numbers greatly after the Labour Party gained traction. I think the Liberal Democrats lost favour with many people after the 2010 general election when they formed an alliance with the Conservatives - they had said in their manifesto that they would do something about student loans (they MAY have said they would stop them but I'm typing this from memory - will have to look back over news articles of the time to be certain) and then went back on their promise, so lost some of their following (and they were a minority party anyway). Something from Wikipedia about when the Liberals merged with the Social Democrats in the 1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrats_(UK)"
I made some research about the Belgian Liberal Party. I think the Liberals were more the rich captains of industry and trade, while the rich landowners were perhaps more in the Catholic party. But I remember from painstakingly research years ago about a Social-Liberal movement end of the 19th century, I guess sparked by the Socialists, as the Christians came with their "Rerum Novarum" also in defence of the Socialists. (Mussolini misused it for his corporate state and his corporations, as the Nazis also had). And nowadays it is so easy to find it all on the net with summaries and details... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(Belgium)
After the defeat of the Liberal party in the general elections of 1884 the doctrinarian faction continued to dominate the Belgian Liberal party. However, the progressistes or radicals no longer wanted to toe the line. In 1887 they established their own party, the Parti Progressiste, with Paul Janson as its president. Over the years, it became more radical in its views and in 1894, they asked for the creation of a Ministry of Labour, the creation of maximum hours for a working day, and compulsory insurance against accidents, disease, unemployment and disability. More important still, it envisaged the creation of a true public sector by the nationalization of the railroads, canals, roads, bridges and coal mines and by the replacement of the national bank by a bank of state, etc.[1]
I have the impression taht the Liberal parties in Europe evoluated from a Tatcherite Liberalism to a more Social Liberalism recently. But it is not that easy to discern as for instance recently the Liberals, both in the Flemish region and in the French language regions were first more Thatcherite and only recently came to more social responsability.
And now I see that the Social Liberals of Belgium have perhaps something to do with the French "Radicals" (Radicaux) from the interwar period in France...again a subject for research...
Kind regards from Paul.
Vizzer Censura
Posts : 1814 Join date : 2012-05-12
Subject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties? Sun 16 Dec 2018, 18:37
PaulRyckier wrote:
After the defeat of the Liberal party in the general elections of 1884 the doctrinarian faction continued to dominate the Belgian Liberal party.
I hadn’t appreciated that through the ‘School War’ of the early 1880s, Belgium had experienced a similar phenomenon to the contemporaneous Kulturkampf in Germany – i.e. a struggle between secularism and organised religion (normally the Catholic Church) and mainly relating to state education. I imagine that such phenomena probably affected large parts of Europe at that time.
That’s a very succinct article Paul and covers all the basics. Despite its brevity it also contains information which I was unaware of in that that was the first UK General Election in which everyone voted on the same day. So thank you for the link.
Herbert Henry Asquith’s political career following the loss of his seat in 1918 was not what might have been expected. After such a humiliation, and at the age of 66, one might have thought that retirement was the obvious next step for ‘poor old Squiff’. But not a bit of it. He remained the official leader of the Liberal Party and was back in the House of Commons only 14 months later following victory in a by-election. He was still leader of the Liberals when Lloyd George’s own ministry ended in 1922 after the Conservatives quit the Coalition. And Asquith would still be leading the Liberals into the 1924 General Election.
He had first led the Liberals in a general election in 1910 and how the fortunes of the Liberal Party had changed in the intervening 14 years. In 1910 the Liberals had won 272 seats to Labour’s 42. By 1924 the ratio was almost reversed with Labour on 191 seats and the Liberals on 40. And how the world had also changed. In December 1910 Russia was ruled by Tsar Nicholas II. In China the infant emperor Pu-Yi reigned. In Antarctica Robert Falcon Scott’s xxpedition had just arrived on that continent and in Belfast the transatlantic liner Titanic was still being built. By October 1924 in Russia, Lenin was already dead and Stalin was taking over. In Germany Adolf Hitler was in Landsberg Prison writing Mein Kampf. In the Himalayas George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during an attempt to be the first to climb Mt Everest and in New York the first transatlantic texts and images were sent by radiofax.
The centenary of the 1918 General Election this week was barely noticed in the British media (no doubt more occupied with Mrs May’s deal and vote of confidence etc). It was quite different in Ireland, however, where RTE broadcast a program about it on Friday. I’ve found it online and what an excellent production it is:
It presents the results of the 1918 election in Ireland in the format of a 21st century election night special, complete with on-the-spot reporters at selected counts. The various studio contributors are also superb, discussing the issues and results as live and contemporary while carefully avoiding the benefit of hindsight. It’s an outstanding exercise in unlearning the past which is really not an easy thing to achieve.
The RTE website also includes an article on the making of the program:
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