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 Are we back to the Thirties?

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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySun 16 Dec 2018, 18:37

@PaulRyckier wrote:
After the defeat of the Liberal party in the general elections of 1884 the doctrinarian faction continued to dominate the Belgian Liberal party.

I hadn’t appreciated that through the ‘School War’ of the early 1880s, Belgium had experienced a similar phenomenon to the contemporaneous Kulturkampf in Germany – i.e. a struggle between secularism and organised religion (normally the Catholic Church) and mainly relating to state education. I imagine that such phenomena probably affected large parts of Europe at that time.


@PaulRyckier wrote:
As for the "coupon election" of 1918 I sought some further enlightenment, but it says indeed not more than you
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british-electoral-history-since-1832/the-1918-coupon-election/

That’s a very succinct article Paul and covers all the basics. Despite its brevity it also contains information which I was unaware of in that that was the first UK General Election in which everyone voted on the same day. So thank you for the link.

Herbert Henry Asquith’s political career following the loss of his seat in 1918 was not what might have been expected. After such a humiliation, and at the age of 66, one might have thought that retirement was the obvious next step for ‘poor old Squiff’. But not a bit of it. He remained the official leader of the Liberal Party and was back in the House of Commons only 14 months later following victory in a by-election. He was still leader of the Liberals when Lloyd George’s own ministry ended in 1922 after the Conservatives quit the Coalition. And Asquith would still be leading the Liberals into the 1924 General Election.

He had first led the Liberals in a general election in 1910 and how the fortunes of the Liberal Party had changed in the intervening 14 years. In 1910 the Liberals had won 272 seats to Labour’s 42. By 1924 the ratio was almost reversed with Labour on 191 seats and the Liberals on 40. And how the world had also changed. In December 1910 Russia was ruled by Tsar Nicholas II. In China the infant emperor Pu-Yi reigned. In Antarctica Robert Falcon Scott’s xxpedition had just arrived on that continent and in Belfast the transatlantic liner Titanic was still being built. By October 1924 in Russia, Lenin was already dead and Stalin was taking over. In Germany Adolf Hitler was in Landsberg Prison writing Mein Kampf. In the Himalayas George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during an attempt to be the first to climb Mt Everest and in New York the first transatlantic texts and images were sent by radiofax.

The centenary of the 1918 General Election this week was barely noticed in the British media (no doubt more occupied with Mrs May’s deal and vote of confidence etc). It was quite different in Ireland, however, where RTE broadcast a program about it on Friday. I’ve found it online and what an excellent production it is:

Election '18

It presents the results of the 1918 election in Ireland in the format of a 21st century election night special, complete with on-the-spot reporters at selected counts. The various studio contributors are also superb, discussing the issues and results as live and contemporary while carefully avoiding the benefit of hindsight. It’s an outstanding exercise in unlearning the past which is really not an easy thing to achieve.

The RTE website also includes an article on the making of the program:

Election '18 - bringing history to life

And there’s also a handy interactive map which can be used to compare and contrast the results of the 1910 and 1918 elections:

Election 1918

All highly recommended.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyMon 17 Dec 2018, 21:17

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Addendum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

And about the documentary:
https://www.idfa.nl/en/film/8d446397-41c2-4cc2-b544-e067e6dcd0d9/unfair-game-how-trump-won
And the documentary:
It is in French, no problem for MM and me and I am sure you can still watch it in German on ARTE, no problem for Nielsen and me.
But there is a device for other languages (click on the wheel) Of course it is odd English but I suppose you will be able to follow...


I sought to visualize again the documentary and now in English, but everywhere it is not available anymore for all kind of reasons:

But here I guess the subtitles in English from the Deutsche Welle. I have to check against the French text of the documentary that I have still on my hard disk....to see if this is also no fake news Wink ...
http://www.yousubtitles.com/UNFAIR-GAME-HOW-TRUMP-WON-DW-Documentary--id-2170011

And that's the documentary again from ARTE in French again
https://goo.gl/D4J9Qr

And also on the subject from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyMon 17 Dec 2018, 22:31

@Vizzer wrote:
@PaulRyckier wrote:
After the defeat of the Liberal party in the general elections of 1884 the doctrinarian faction continued to dominate the Belgian Liberal party.

I hadn’t appreciated that through the ‘School War’ of the early 1880s, Belgium had experienced a similar phenomenon to the contemporaneous Kulturkampf in Germany – i.e. a struggle between secularism and organised religion (normally the Catholic Church) and mainly relating to state education. I imagine that such phenomena probably affected large parts of Europe at that time.


@PaulRyckier wrote:
As for the "coupon election" of 1918 I sought some further enlightenment, but it says indeed not more than you
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/british-electoral-history-since-1832/the-1918-coupon-election/

That’s a very succinct article Paul and covers all the basics. Despite its brevity it also contains information which I was unaware of in that that was the first UK General Election in which everyone voted on the same day. So thank you for the link.

Herbert Henry Asquith’s political career following the loss of his seat in 1918 was not what might have been expected. After such a humiliation, and at the age of 66, one might have thought that retirement was the obvious next step for ‘poor old Squiff’. But not a bit of it. He remained the official leader of the Liberal Party and was back in the House of Commons only 14 months later following victory in a by-election. He was still leader of the Liberals when Lloyd George’s own ministry ended in 1922 after the Conservatives quit the Coalition. And Asquith would still be leading the Liberals into the 1924 General Election.

He had first led the Liberals in a general election in 1910 and how the fortunes of the Liberal Party had changed in the intervening 14 years. In 1910 the Liberals had won 272 seats to Labour’s 42. By 1924 the ratio was almost reversed with Labour on 191 seats and the Liberals on 40. And how the world had also changed. In December 1910 Russia was ruled by Tsar Nicholas II. In China the infant emperor Pu-Yi reigned. In Antarctica Robert Falcon Scott’s xxpedition had just arrived on that continent and in Belfast the transatlantic liner Titanic was still being built. By October 1924 in Russia, Lenin was already dead and Stalin was taking over. In Germany Adolf Hitler was in Landsberg Prison writing Mein Kampf. In the Himalayas George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during an attempt to be the first to climb Mt Everest and in New York the first transatlantic texts and images were sent by radiofax.

The centenary of the 1918 General Election this week was barely noticed in the British media (no doubt more occupied with Mrs May’s deal and vote of confidence etc). It was quite different in Ireland, however, where RTE broadcast a program about it on Friday. I’ve found it online and what an excellent production it is:

Election '18

It presents the results of the 1918 election in Ireland in the format of a 21st century election night special, complete with on-the-spot reporters at selected counts. The various studio contributors are also superb, discussing the issues and results as live and contemporary while carefully avoiding the benefit of hindsight. It’s an outstanding exercise in unlearning the past which is really not an easy thing to achieve.

The RTE website also includes an article on the making of the program:

Election '18 - bringing history to life

And there’s also a handy interactive map which can be used to compare and contrast the results of the 1910 and 1918 elections:

Election 1918

All highly recommended.

Vizzer,

thank you very much for your comments and I will certainly look to all what mentioned including the RTE website.

"He had first led the Liberals in a general election in 1910 and how the fortunes of the Liberal Party had changed in the intervening 14 years. In 1910 the Liberals had won 272 seats to Labour’s 42. By 1924 the ratio was almost reversed with Labour on 191 seats and the Liberals on 40. And how the world had also changed. In December 1910 Russia was ruled by Tsar Nicholas II. In China the infant emperor Pu-Yi reigned. In Antarctica Robert Falcon Scott’s xxpedition had just arrived on that continent and in Belfast the transatlantic liner Titanic was still being built. By October 1924 in Russia, Lenin was already dead and Stalin was taking over. In Germany Adolf Hitler was in Landsberg Prison writing Mein Kampf. In the Himalayas George Mallory and Andrew Irvine disappeared during an attempt to be the first to climb Mt Everest and in New York the first transatlantic texts and images were sent by radiofax."

That's interesting how you put the change of 14 years between 1910 and 1924 in a global context.

"I hadn’t appreciated that through the ‘School War’ of the early 1880s, Belgium had experienced a similar phenomenon to the contemporaneous Kulturkampf in Germany – i.e. a struggle between secularism and organised religion (normally the Catholic Church) and mainly relating to state education. I imagine that such phenomena probably affected large parts of Europe at that time."


Yes Vizzer you are  right. Above the Belgian "schoolstrijd" (school struggle?) you had the Kulturkampf that you mentioned, you had also the struggle in France at nearly the same time with Jules Ferry.
In Belgium you had two of them the first that you mentioned and the second in the Fifties, where i was as ten year old witness of.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolstrijd_(Belgi%C3%AB)#De_tweede_schoolstrijd_(1950-1958)
If I have time, I will look if I don't find anything in English
As said in the second one we had to shout sparked by the clerics in choir: "weg met Collard" (away with Collard (socialist minister of education I suppose) Wink But then it was not between the Liberals and the Catholics anymore, but with the Socialists.

But with the Kulturkampf I guess it was more for Bismarck a fear of the einheimische (local) German Protestants against the international ramifications of a Pope in Rome (influence all over the world. Compare Rome with Mecca), but has the Roman Catholics has still might in Germany the pragmatic Bismarck chose to apease them in the struggle with the Socialists, which were in his eyes even more dangerous with their "internationale"...
https://www.britannica.com/event/Kulturkampf


And finally France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Ferry
From the wiki:
Schoolreforms.
Two important works are associated with his administration: the non-clerical organization of public education, and the major colonial expansion of France. Following the republican programme, he proposed to destroy the influence of the clergy in the university and found his own system of republican schooling. He reorganized the committee of public education (law of 27 February 1880), and proposed a regulation for the conferring of university degrees, which, though rejected, aroused violent polemics because the 7th article took away from the unauthorized religious orders the right to teach. He finally succeeded in passing his eponymous laws of 16 June 1881 and 28 March 1882, which made primary education in France free, non-clerical (laïque) and mandatory. In higher education, the number of professors, called the "Republic's black hussars" (French: hussards noirs de la République) because of their Republican support, doubled under his ministry.[3]
The education policies establishing French language as the language of the Republic have been contested in the second half of the 20th century insofar as, while they played an important role in unifying the French nation state and the Third Republic, they also nearly caused the extinction of several regional languages.[10]


And I saw a splendid French film in that context:
"L'orange de Noël" (the orange of Christmass) (as many French households on the countryside were not able to buy an orange in winter for a present)
Some years ago you could nearly every old film download, but nowadays the big companies (rant) have taken it all to let it pay. It's socalled for free, until you subscribe to the obliged enter. If someon know a "real"!!! free channel...?
Anyway it is this one and I really enjoyed it:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0136444/

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyMon 17 Dec 2018, 22:39

Addendum to the film: "L'orange de Noël"
https://vimeo.com/5199470

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 18 Dec 2018, 20:28

Vizzer,

and more about the French separation of church and state from 1905
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State

And adding to the question of the Jules Ferry schools that I mentioned above? I saw lately a film about the difficulties in French schools now not with the Catholics but now with the Muslim students...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Journ%C3%A9e_de_la_jupe
http://www.allocine.fr/film/fichefilm_gen_cfilm=142311.html

I see in the survey of the press appreciation that mostly the tabloïd press gives it  a high score, but what is the score of the so called serious papers worth? And I don't know what the serious French papers are and what side they are "leaning" Wink
And I don't know how honest this review is:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best-newspapers-in-France


In my humble opinion it is some bit exagerated (put thick in the paint (dik in de verf gezet) picture of a clash within the laic (lay?) state school of the French lay culture (the right of a woman to wear a skirt) and the Muslim culture as before the Roman-Catholic culture. And I found it a rather good film.
But to be honest I found an "American" (or is it Russian fake-news) site, which heavely criticize the film:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/film-review-skirt-day-92845
And yes it is American
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/p/masthead
And a trailer:
https://vimeo.com/114997928

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 18 Dec 2018, 21:23

My message was complete on preview, I agree a bit vitriolic about the U-turn of the Socialists and the Green ones, which led to the demission of our PM.
I pressed the preview tab, no coming from outside or any others and suddenly the white frame "this page can not be reproduced" and after several new tries the famous "no mode specified" I start again Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
I is as in the time of the BBC that a moderator is looking and then sent you a PM...

I send it in chapters to not lose it completely again.

Last week, we had a Flemish Nationalist party in the government, who opposed the Liberal Prime Minister to agree to the UN migration pact.
The PM asked the meaning of the parliament and the opposition parties, the Green ones and the Socialists voted together with the Christian Democrats and the Liberals from the government for the UN pact and against the Flemish Nationalists. The Flemish Nationalists left the government and the goverment remained with a minority of Christian democrats and Liberals to go to the federal polls of May together with the European elections.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 18 Dec 2018, 21:40

Last days the Flemish Nationalists said to not further support the minority government, which is from their point of view perhaps quite normal as they expect to gain on the wave of the anti-migrant crisis. (And they lost in the last municipalities polls).
But now the Socialists in a machiavellic U turn, say that they will also not support the minority government if they don't give in to their specific grievances. They too expect a gain as they were a bit out the last years and now with the recent municipality polls gained especially in the Brussels Wallloon federation. And the Green ones were the last years as everywhere gaining in the polls and they too think to win in immediate poll before May. They both put the immediate gain above the dear principles and want to put the country in trouble for immediate electoral goals.The Prime Minister resigned this evening and went to the king as the procedure wants and we will see now what the king will do...
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 18 Dec 2018, 21:56

The Flemish Socialists started to ask for a non confidence vote, of course immediately followed by the French side of the Socialsts, who think to regain again their former glory in the Brussels-Walloon federation. And of course the Green ones followed too...

But I think those Flemish Socialists have not thought to the end. As we by all this can end in a split of the regions: a Flemish region (state à la Pujemon?) dominated by the Flemish right wing nationalists and a Brussels-Walloon federation (rest Belgium state) dominated by the Socialists...
And if it realy come to a split: what will they do with the "Brussels National" aeroport on "Flemish" "territory" (German: Boden) and will they do a "territory" swap for a "corridor" from Brussels to Wallonia, which now is still "Flemish" "territory"...

Kind regards from a bitter Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 18 Dec 2018, 22:02

OOPS and I forgot to ask if there were any similarities with the present British situation?

Still a bitter Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyWed 19 Dec 2018, 19:53

And I read today in the paper and saw it on television, that in comparison with my bad perception of yesterday, that perception is today even worser. It were indeed a struggle in the own Liberal government ranks, that let the Prime Minister decide to go to the king with the demission of his government. It was indeed the Flemish part of the Liberals, as Tatcherite Liberals, that were closer to the Flemish Nationalist Tatcherites, than to their Brussels-Walloon more social Liberals, who wanted to give some concessions to the Socialists. Of course the Socialists were happy to give the Black Piet through to the Flemish Liberals, who wanted to give the Prime Minister only one hour to decide about their demand , while the Socialist wanted to wait for another 48 hours to decide to let fall the government (48 hours before they would start with their motion of no-confidence.)

Kind regards from Paul.
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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyWed 19 Dec 2018, 20:25

Paul,

 It seems that the RIGHT orientated groups could succeed in an attempt to end Europe.

Take your time to read through:


The End of Europe?
France is pivotal in holding the European Union together.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/the-end-of-europe/ar-BBRa68J?ocid=spartandhp



Dirk
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyWed 19 Dec 2018, 22:24

@Dirk Marinus wrote:
Paul,

It seems that the RIGHT orientated groups could succeed in an attempt to end Europe
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/the-end-of-europe/ar-BBRa68J?ocid=spartandhp

Dirk

Dirk,

I read through the article and am interested in this American point of view. And there is an unease in the Western world among the middle class Whites and I add also the poor segment. But in my opinion there is a world of difference between the US social system and the European one, and with that I mean the Benelux, France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, the Scandinavian and I suppose Finland too. the former East-Block I don't know that much...the Beveridge welfare state...and I think even a Tatcher and her Friedman Boys, weren't able to change that much that model...but by the competition on the world market, that model comes in danger, as the solidarity costs money, in Belgium and France two of highest taxed of Europe, but the rich firms don't pay taxes with the treath to evade to other less taxed countries, the same for the rich ones who abhor (detest) solidarity and thus the middle class has to pay for the poor and yes as there is less middle class, the solidarity of the poor is less...and above that there comes a migrant crisis...
I was today in the revalidation center of the clinic, as my wife has to revalidate of a new right hip operation (so I am more free in the evenings and mornings Wink )
In the cantine I met a lady in her fifties working there, who was two years divorced (man away with another lady) and had to renew her life and hiring in Bruges for 600 Euro a month. After 48 years work in the Horeca (hotel, restaurant, café) she would have netto 1100 Euro in retirement minus her hire, electricity, water, gas, she guessed she would have some 300 Euro for food and leisure. And the public servant had said: yes madame, but you always worked for a small wage, in that case it is quite normal. And then she said bitterly, I will have to work to the end of my days...and then further, right or wrong, but that was her perception (and she could be right as I am too  in the hire business), these brown asyl seekers, receive immediately an appartment on the costs of the state and we are on a list for at least for six years...
Tomorrow more about Switzerland and further about the question and the article.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyThu 20 Dec 2018, 22:44

Dirk,

further about the article.

As said a fundamental difference in the US against Europe in social solidarity that is reflected for instance I thnk also in the earnings from labour:
The relation between the upper tenth fraction and the lower tenth fraction.
From:
http://www.armoedebestrijding.be/cijfers_kloof_arm_rijk.htm

Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 Gra2ink

And there I was struck that Sweden,Belgium, Denmark, and Finland were among the lowest ratio.

But even better about the real income relation,
Gini-coëfficiënt. De waarde van de coëfficiënt varieert van 0 (volledige inkomensgelijkheid) tot 100 (volledige inkomensongelijkheid: al het inkomen behoort aan één persoon).
Gini coëfficiënt: The worth of the coëfficiënt variates from 0 (complete income equality) to 100 (complete income inequality: all the income belongs to one person)
Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 Gragew
And there it is astonishing to see the UK between Poland and Greece.
And also the regional distribution only made for Belgium, but I guess it is the same for each country...
The Flemish region together with Norway and also a surprizing Slovenia and Czech republic, the Walloon region a bit better than Belgium, but the Brussels region a bit worser than Romania
And in a recent article, I saw that although the better years since the 2008 crisis, the upper tenth today! earn more than the lowest tenth in Belgium in comparison with ten years ago.

But I wonder how this statistics would be for the US, but I see that in the last grafic Switzerland comes out relatively well, even better than France...I guess they are all equally rich... Wink 

But yes that fear for migrants seems to be the same in the whole Western world, where most are afraid of people, who cost money and don't contribute to the wealth of the community and meant perhaps also trouble in the society because of an other culture...

And that fear is emphasized by the far right as in the Thirties and they seek to fragment that European repulsion into individual states to better fight the phenomenon on their individual borders, "am liebsten" (preferably?) with a far? right government as in Hungary...
But they forget that they are act better together as in the Belgian: "Union fait la force" (unity is strength), but the far right under the leading of the American Steve Bannon, wants individual entities (I don't know the real reason of Bannon to want it that way? A far right Europe equal to the Trump US?) He was in Belgium to support the Flemish far right: Vlaams Belang (the former Flemish Blok)...and an own Flemish State for the own people under the slogan: "Eigen volk eerst" (Own volk first) "volk" in the German connotation. (d'abord nos propres Flamands de souche)

See you tomorrow Dirk, for further comments...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 21 Dec 2018, 22:21

Dirk,

sorry I see that you are on board, but no time anymore this evening to make a coherent end to my reply. Perhaps tomorrow...
In any case thank you for your interesting article.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyWed 26 Dec 2018, 21:32

About the new Chinese dictatorship...brave new world? Better than the dictatorships of the Thirties?
https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/078193-000-A/the-world-according-to-xi-jinping/

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyThu 27 Dec 2018, 21:04

@PaulRyckier wrote:
About the new Chinese dictatorship...brave new world? Better than the dictatorships of the Thirties?
https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/078193-000-A/the-world-according-to-xi-jinping/

Kind regards, Paul.


It is in French from ARTE, but with "accurate" english subtitles from ARTE english... Wink

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyThu 27 Dec 2018, 21:08

Addendum: the film don't start immediately sometimes, but after some trials the film starts nevertheless...
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 28 Dec 2018, 21:39

@PaulRyckier wrote:
Addendum: the film don't start immediately sometimes, but after some trials the film starts nevertheless...


Also this evening as I sent it to someone else...
Therefore for those who understand French the original French one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow_tQQzukfQ



Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySat 30 Mar 2019, 21:14

@PaulRyckier wrote:
@Dirk Marinus wrote:
Paul,

It seems that the RIGHT orientated groups could succeed in an attempt to end Europe
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/the-end-of-europe/ar-BBRa68J?ocid=spartandhp

Dirk

Dirk,

I read through the article and am interested in this American point of view. And there is an unease in the Western world among the middle class Whites and I add also the poor segment. But in my opinion there is a world of difference between the US social system and the European one, and with that I mean the Benelux, France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, the Scandinavian and I suppose Finland too. the former East-Block I don't know that much...the Beveridge welfare state...and I think even a Tatcher and her Friedman Boys, weren't able to change that much that model...but by the competition on the world market, that model comes in danger, as the solidarity costs money, in Belgium and France two of highest taxed of Europe, but the rich firms don't pay taxes with the treath to evade to other less taxed countries, the same for the rich ones who abhor (detest) solidarity and thus the middle class has to pay for the poor and yes as there is less middle class, the solidarity of the poor is less...and above that there comes a migrant crisis...
I was today in the revalidation center of the clinic, as my wife has to revalidate of a new right hip operation (so I am more free in the evenings and mornings Wink )
In the cantine I met a lady in her fifties working there, who was two years divorced (man away with another lady) and had to renew her life and hiring in Bruges for 600 Euro a month. After 48 years work in the Horeca (hotel, restaurant, café) she would have netto 1100 Euro in retirement minus her hire, electricity, water, gas, she guessed she would have some 300 Euro for food and leisure. And the public servant had said: yes madame, but you always worked for a small wage, in that case it is quite normal. And then she said bitterly, I will have to work to the end of my days...and then further, right or wrong, but that was her perception (and she could be right as I am too  in the hire business), these brown asyl seekers, receive immediately an appartment on the costs of the state and we are on a list for at least for six years...
Tomorrow more about Switzerland and further about the question and the article.

Kind regards from Paul.


As we seem not to be able anymore to speak freely overhere as nordmann has found out, I have directly spoken to Dirk and Per on a "closed" forum (about worldhistory) about the Right wing Europe in their "nation states". At the end one will not be able anymore to write under one's own name in public for fear of repressailes of the dark mass...and even with a nickname, one can be in the centre of a "wasp attack"...

Kind regards to everyone of this board from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 11 Jun 2019, 11:09

Paul, you may have missed this if you haven't been closely following British politics, but in the campaign for who is to succeed May as leader of the Conservative Party and hence become the next PM, the various candidates, currently ten in number, are trying to out-do each other in confirming their creditials for delivering Brexit at whatever cost. Dominic Raab has even gone as far as saying that he thought it might be necessary to suspend Parliament in order to prevent MPs blocking Brexit. He thought it would unlikely be necessary, but he wouldn't rule it out. (NB Normally only the Queen can prorogue Parliament before a general election, and so her compliance would be necessary - and she might be reluctant seeing as when her ancestor, Charles I, did it to try and force legislation through, it prompted a civil war and he eventually lost his head).

Most observers have dismissed his idea as as nonsense, but it is interesting - and revealing about the psychology of contemporary Britain - that he can seriously propose what is effectively a putsch, and hasn't been denounced for saying he would subvert due democratic process. In essence his plan is rather like Hitler in 1933 forcing through the Reichstag Fire Decree as the first step in getting the Enabling Act passed, which gave him the right to suspend the Reichstag and thus finally rule by decree. And we all know where that ended up. (Ironically Dominic Raab's grandfather was Jewish and fled to Britain from Czechoslovakia in 1938 immediately following the Munich Agreement).
 
But the whole leadership contest is far from democratic in itself. Only paid-up members of the Conservative Party have any say in the selection of their next leader. That means the next British Prime Minister will be decided by just 100,000 people, or roughly 0.2% of the UK population (and who are predominantly male, with an average age of about 57, and with about half the total membership being over 65 - but exact figures are unknown as the party does not publish this data). It's even stranger when you consider that the Conservatives are still the government despite not having had a Parliamentary majority for some time.

Isn't British democracy wonderful?

Mind you, whoever wins possession of the poisoned chalice might become the PM with the shortest term in office. They may well be rapidly forced into a general election, and then if they lose, be un-ceremoniously dumped by the same Parliamentary party that is now about to vote them into power.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 11 Jun 2019, 18:07

All may not be lost: Rory Stewart, of brilliant Hedgehog Speech fame, is giving a cracking speech in London. It's on BBC News at the moment. He gets my vote - really - and he is the only candidate of whom Larry obviously approves (see image below). I do so hope I'm not wrong, but I really do think this is a man of  huge intelligence and rare integrity. They won't choose him, of course.


Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 Skynews-rory-stewart-larry-cat_4692088
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyTue 11 Jun 2019, 23:10

MM,

thank you for the update and interesting about the paid-up members of the Conservative party...
I read this afternoon about the ten in our local paper...the first seven, or are it eight, are men, and only two women on ten...is that the start of: we need the men to do it? as I mentioned upstream on this thread someone from the farright in Hungary speaking about the role of the traditional family again, with a role for the women...I guess, as "moeder aan de haard" (mother at the hearth?)

I wanted dot be more in detail, but I feel with Temperance with all that trouble in Britain, but to comfort her (if that is a comfort), it is as worse in Belgium, perhaps worser, while the future of Belgium is put in question. I hope as she, that the wise (wo-men) can turn the tide (het getij kunnen keren)

Politics are a bit like football teams, or football can be politics as from Turkey...I read this afternoon about our Belgian from Liège...someone, who innocently (or nearly, I would laugh if it wasn't that serious...as the fans have hacked his code, his identity is in the public and he received already murder threats...and yes that is something I remember from the Thirties too...I hope our little forum don't come once in the eye of the storm for such a "bagatelle"
It is not fully about the event of using a kitchen brush as microphone (the Turkish ministery says a "WC brush")
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48580770
The Belgian guy with the kitchen brush microphone is not mentioned, but I probably can find it in full in a French language journal...

In the same Belgian papers this afternoon the details about the breakdown of the costs of the Flemish parties for promoting their campaign...and the ultra-right had nearly three or was it four times more costs for facebook than the Christian-Democrats. facebook of Cambridge Analitica fame, from which an article I mentioned upstream of this thread, said that it won the American elections for Trump and if I recall it well also the Brexit vote from 2016.
This mornning in the teletext of the RTBF: from the Standaard if I recall it well; the poor communalities voted most for the ultra-right and the richer ones quite less
A lesson for the political parties? To use the modern communications to reach the "common" mass (I haven't said stupid)?
And as long as you are easy, why bother about that right-wing stuff?...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 14 Jun 2019, 13:32

MM wrote:
Dominic Raab has even gone as far as saying that he thought it might be necessary to suspend Parliament in order to prevent MPs blocking Brexit. He thought it would unlikely be necessary, but he wouldn't rule it out. (NB Normally only the Queen can prorogue Parliament before a general election, and so her compliance would be necessary - and she might be reluctant seeing as when her ancestor, Charles I, did it to try and force legislation through, it prompted a civil war and he eventually lost his head).

Most observers have dismissed his idea as as nonsense, but it is interesting - and revealing about the psychology of contemporary Britain - that he can seriously propose what is effectively a putsch, and hasn't been denounced for saying he would subvert due democratic process. In essence his plan is rather like Hitler in 1933 forcing through the Reichstag Fire Decree as the first step in getting the Enabling Act passed, which gave him the right to suspend the Reichstag and thus finally rule by decree. And we all know where that ended up. (Ironically Dominic Raab's grandfather was Jewish and fled to Britain from Czechoslovakia in 1938 immediately following the Munich Agreement).

And Boris has refused to rule out the prorogation of Parliament.

Rory Stewart says if Boris prorogues that he (Rory) will sit across the road in Methodist Hall and hold an alternative parliament. He's a good man.

Interestingly, the BBC has just announced that a programme is coming up very soon about "the original constitutional crisis" - Charles I: Downfall of a King

So was John Pym a bit of a Rory then? I know nothing about Pym - but he was fiercely against the dissolution of Parliament without Parliament's consent, was he not?


Last edited by Temperance on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 13:46; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 14 Jun 2019, 13:35

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07ck5q5


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rory-stewart-brexit-no-deal-boris-johnson-tory-leadership-contest-a8957276.html

From the Independent article:


Tory leadership candidate Rory Stewart has said he will “bring down” frontrunner Boris Johnson as prime minister if he tries to suspend parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit.

The international development secretary, who scraped through to the second round of the contest with 19 votes, repeated his demand for Mr Johnson to come clean on whether he was ready to use the process of prorogation to prevent MPs blocking no deal on 31 October.

Mr Stewart said he and other MPs were ready to sit as a parliament outside the Palace of Westminster if Mr Johnson took this step as prime minister.

And he compared the use of prorogation – which would require the prime minister to ask the Queen to suspend parliament to a date chosen by the government – to Charles I’s dismissal of parliament in 1629, which paved the way for civil war.

(Stewart) said: “You don’t ever lock the doors on parliament in this country. Somebody who attempted to subvert our constitution, our liberties, our parliament, and who dared to stand as prime minister and claim they could lock the doors on parliament would not deserve to be prime minister.

“This parliament would meet, whether he locked the doors or not, and we would bring him down.”
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 14 Jun 2019, 14:32

Meanwhile today, the oft-vilified Conservative ex-PM, John Major, who took over from Margaret Thatcher, again speaks sense:

“When you have people suggesting that you prorogue parliament because parliament may take a different view from a particular faction in the House of Commons you are heading in very dangerous territory. When you look back at British history, you cannot image Disraeli, Gladstone, Churchill or Thatcher, even in their most difficult period, saying ‘let us put parliament aside while I carry through this difficult policy’ … it is fundamentally unconstitutional … and to hear that argument come from the people who in the Brexit debate talked about parliamentary sovereignty being at stake, it is not just fundamentally distasteful, it is hypocrisy on a gold-plated standard ... I don’t think that can possibly be allowed to stand. I don’t think the House of Commons will allow it to stand."

But whoever actually wins the greasy-pole contest to become PM, will still be faced with a divided country, about to crash out of the EU and all the international agreements that entails (that's the default position for 31 October however macho they claim to be now), and so likely to be a PM faced with a domestic crisis akin to a state of war but entirely self-inflicted, and who posterity may well veiw as over-seeing the break-up of the United Kingdom (and that's not to mention all the other looming issues such as US-Iran-China relations, mass population movements, an imminent global financial slump, climate change, etc). Or of course, as is also likely, they might well get ignominiously kicked out of the role after just a month or two via a Parliamentary no-confidence vote and a subsequent general election.

Why, given that that is the reality of the situation, why do they all so desperately want to be PM?

Or as Douglas Adams accutely observed in 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe',

"The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. 
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptyFri 21 Jun 2019, 20:21

Especially for Dirk and MM,

I read today in the paper about the murders by right-wing movements In Germany. And about the death threats of Mayors as from Cologne...and it are real ones...again in the paper: there are more deaths in Germany due to the right wing, than all the djiadists deaths together...and the police gives weapons to the right-wing, while there are many adherents among their ranks...yes are we back to the Thirties?...
I sought it on BBC world, but nothing...it seems to be not "world news" and I agree the Trump war, possibly with the Russians on Iran on ten minutes near, is even more frightening...
Found it on the BBC Europe and even not that what I read in the paper today...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48703302

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySat 22 Jun 2019, 08:02

@PaulRyckier wrote:
...and the police gives weapons to the right-wing, while there are many adherents among their ranks...yes are we back to the Thirties?...

Hmmm ... I very much doubt that is true, hence probably why you cannot find much about it.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySat 22 Jun 2019, 09:55

If the German "far right" is pursuing a coordinated and concerted campaign of violence against the state (and there is little evidence of either coordination or concerted strategy - or indeed any strategy whatsoever) then the correct 1930s analogy would be with the disparate agencies and individuals within the country who targeted the fascist state and its high profile appointees with violent assassination and sabotage. Which of course just complicates this so-called "we're back in the 30s again" trope to the point of being ludicrous.

We're not back in the 30s. We're in 2019, and unless we can address the true nature of what are very real problems facing democracy in its modern context, and avoid attempting to draw false parallels with previous times (I assume to stoke panic and distrust rather than as a genuine academic avenue towards understanding the issues at all), then we collectively allow the problems to continue. Worse, we even lend many of the more stupid perpetrators a spurious right to claim equally false historical pedigree, definition and justification for their own actions.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySat 22 Jun 2019, 10:02

With the two choices left for PM now, for me it's like having to choose between blancmange and beetroot (both of which are foodstuffs I'm not fond of).  Don't ask me which one is blancmange and which is beetroot.  Was it nordmann who suggested that we in the UK might need a reform of our parliamentary system.  (nordmann if you read this I don't want to attribute comments to you falsely).  Of course, the methodology of any reform would need very serious consideration.

Heaven forfend that a war between the West and Iran erupts.  The refugee problem that already exists in some parts of the Middle East will VERY likely become much worse in the event of such a cataclysm.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySat 22 Jun 2019, 22:51

@nordmann wrote:
If the German "far right" is pursuing a coordinated and concerted campaign of violence against the state (and there is little evidence of either coordination or concerted strategy - or indeed any strategy whatsoever) then the correct 1930s analogy would be with the disparate agencies and individuals within the country who targeted the fascist state and its high profile appointees with violent assassination and sabotage. Which of course just complicates this so-called "we're back in the 30s again" trope to the point of being ludicrous.

We're not back in the 30s. We're in 2019, and unless we can address the true nature of what are very real problems facing democracy in its modern context, and avoid attempting to draw false parallels with previous times (I assume to stoke panic and distrust rather than as a genuine academic avenue towards understanding the issues at all), then we collectively allow the problems to continue. Worse, we even lend many of the more stupid perpetrators a spurious right to claim equally false historical pedigree, definition and justification for their own actions.

nordmann,

I agree, I had to search for the sources as I always do for online articles. And MM has done it and nothing found. You have been always a fair guide on these boards and you are right to castigate me, because up to now we aren't in circumstances or events to make comparisons with the Thirties. And history don't repeat itself because a lot of parameters are others than in the time and there are too much intangibles to make prognoses.

And it is a lesson again for me that you have to check what a reporter write in a daily.  That paper is most read of the four Dutch language language papers in Belgium. And in the time it was also party linked as the others. This one Liberal linked. But yes most read isn't a reference for the quality of the sources. And I think if you read this in a well known paper that the police is working together with far right groups, many will think about former right wing tribulations as the hanging questions about the Bende van Nijvel (the gang of Nijvel) a presumed act of right wing presumed destabilisation of Belgum linked to the police and still not yet refuted. The case reopened last year. And many oldies will make perhaps links with the destabilisation of the right wing here in Belgium and in Germany in  the in between the wars period.
And I suppose, nordmann, that the average reader is certainly not that perspicacious? (lucid) as you?
 
I found the article back from yesterday, but as I read the paper in a "café" the full text is here only available for the subscribers...
https://www.hln.be/de-krant/zelfs-politie-steelt-wapens-voor-extreemrechts~ad23730b/
Zelfs de politie steelt wapens voor extreemrechts
Even the police steals weapens for extreme right
Moord op politicus Lübcke is slechts het topje van de ijsberg in Duitsland
Murder on the politician Lübcke is only the top of the iceberg in Germany
Het dringt langzaam door tot Duitsland dat de moord op Walter Lübcke slechts het topje van de ijsberg is - en dat het land veel erger wordt bedreigd door geweld uit extreemrechtse hoek dan door moslimterreur. Tal van politici hebben intussen ook dreigementen ontvangen en zelfs de politie blijkt niet te vertrouwen.
It perpetrates slowly in Germany that the murder on Lübcke is only the top of the iceberg-and that the country is far more threatened by violence from the extreme right corner than the muslim terror. Many politicians have in the meantime received threats and even the police is not to trust.

  • 21 juni 2019 

  • 00u00


But I agree nordmann I hadn't to make the comparison with the Thirties.

Kind regards from Paul.
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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySun 23 Jun 2019, 18:55

Paul,

  what at present is our biggest problem is to differentiate between news and "fake news" and it seems that even the mass media has a problem doing so.

Over the months I have heard BBC, Sky and other international broadcasters airing news items and news papers/mass media publishing articles  and stories   which days, weeks and even months later were noted as  lies or as events that never happened.

Wonder if we should :
       
Believe NOTHING we hear

Believe HALF we read
 
 Believe ALL we see


Dirk
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Are we back to the Thirties? - Page 2 EmptySun 23 Jun 2019, 21:25

Dirk and MM,

you are right, nowadays (perhaps before too Wink ) you can't trust nobody anymore. Even our long established honest Beeb.
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1379-humans-and-a-religious-instinct
And yes I had to check and double check before I published the article of the well-known Belgian HLN on a serious forum like ours.
For my penitence (penitentie. Have the Protestants also such a thing? Lucky that I looked in the paperback Collins, while it is "penance" in English and "penitence" is someone who is penitent)
I did some three quarters research on google with all kind of German terms (as you and Nielsen understand German...)
From the more than hundred links that I checked, this one seems the most honest and reiable.
https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/rechtsextremismus-polizei-frankfurt-rassismus-nsu-bundeswehr-prepper-verfassung
Right wing extremism in the police and the Bundeswehr (German army)
And yes it seems to be a serious question.
And about the magazine from wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero_(magazine)
It is already now more than twenty years that I haven't had intensive contact with German citizens and as such I don't know that much anymore of what lives among the population, except of the international news. I know now more about British, American and French people by attending the several fora in the last 17 years.
But for MM to come back on the article of the HLN journalist about the rechtsextrimismus in the police and armee I found it all, but nothing about delivery of weapens by the police to right wing extremists and I guess if there was something about it I would have found it in tabloids as Bild and all that.
But of course and that is my own reasoning, each right wing extremist in the police will have "Polizeiwaffe" with him...

Kind regards to both of you from Paul.
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