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 Are we back to the Thirties?

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Are we back to the Thirties?   Sat 08 Sep 2018, 00:32

From my thread about the Russia of Putin, where the patriarch Kirill together with him build a new Russian ultraconservative identity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSsQ9d722aU

Together with nordmann I discussed "totalitarism" via the book of Hannah Arendt
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1089-hannah-arendt-and-totalitarism
Totalitarism from the interwar period especially the Thirties.
As you consider the nowadays Russia it seems to try to use the old totalitarian methods with the help of the also old in that role Orthodox church, nowadays with the willing Patriarch Kirril...
In that it can't perhaps not be compared with the old German Nazi empire, but rather with the Spain of the Caudillo Franco, where there was also a close cooperation between Church and State...
But there is not only Russia, but there are other ultraright movements, which are present in Europe and become every more and more vociferous, especially in the former Eastern-European countries, especially Hungary and Poland.
I saw also a documentary about the Russian influence in the recent US elections which made Trump president, the documentary mentioned also the links between the ultraright Le Pen and the Russian help to win the recent French elections, but that failed...I was however not able to verify the sources of the documentary.
Russia must also be pleased with the rightwing Lega Nord in the government of Italy...
And as I have seen from the links of the ultraright wing which came recently here in Belgium in the picture "Schild en Vrienden"
When I the day before yesterday read about the row about an ultraright wingmovement, I wasn't aware that it would have those consequences in the Belgian politics...and indeed it was much worser than I thought...for instance links with the Orban regime in Hungary, really a bit international right wing links as I see it even with the US...
On the French historyboard I wanted to speak about our "White Hoods" in the thread of the Flemish count Louis of Maele and the aid of Charles VI of France to tackle the Ghent revolt against him and on that occasion said  that the nowadays Flemish nationalists don't use the bombastic terminology anymore of the in between the wars period as from the Klokke Roeland song: you Jan Yoens, you Arteveldes, tremble in your graves...
How wrong I was...
Even the 1302 "Schild en Vriend"...
A far right movement with a leader studying at the Ghent university..."Schild en Vrienden"...armed resistance and all that... the new Fascist Russia of Putin and Kiryl, a bit "the Caudillo and the Catholic church"?
As I studied that in depth the "in between the wars period" (interwar period?) I see more and more nowadays some similarities with that period...am I too pessimistic...Turkey with its leader, again a marriage between state and religion?...
Addendum to the previous message.

And it is quite worser than I thought about "Schild en Vrienden"...
Some propaganda films from them:
I found nothing in English but international right wing propaganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m24mhizyIwI
Viktor Orbán meets Schild & Vrienden: "Awaken your nation as soon as possible"  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv2wSaqyyx8
In Dutch:
http://nl.wikisage.org/wiki/Schild_%26_Vrienden
https://goo.gl/PNTRN7
And today I sought further, perhaps can Dirk Marinus help me to summarize what I found in Dutch...
As the leader of the movement is fired as a student at the Ghent university I found it strange that the Catholic University of Leuven would under some conditions let him study further overthere. And I read already about links with the ultraconservative Catholics...
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2018/09/07/kul-doesn_t-rule-out-giving-van-langenhove-a-place/
And see I read today in a critical magazine about the links with:
https://www.apache.be/2018/03/08/een-school-met-heimwee-naar-het-derde-rijk/?sh=2a1c284c5928ba10f90c0-586738160
A school which is homesick to the Third Reich
Neonazi’s, antisemieten en geradicaliseerde geestelijken vinden elkaar in het Oude Klooster Maleizen (Overijse). Dat biedt onderdak aan een fundamentalistische school en herbergt een extreemrechts, ultra katholiek netwerk.
Neonazis, antisemites and radicalized ecclesiastics meet each other in the Old Convent Maleizen (Overijse). It accomodate a fundamentalistic school and is the seat of an ultraright, ultracatholic web
And as always I look for the sources:
https://vjv.vlaanderen/2017/12/11/de-lijdensweg-van-het-recht-op-informatie/
From the Flemish Journalists Organization:
Apache: most journalists are from De Morgen, an in my eyes former Socialist leaning quality journal. but wouldn't say that if they did some investigations that they weren't proved right by the facts...
And yes according to the article some links with family of politicians in the government and also links with personalities, you guess it, from the Catholic University Leuven...

Tomorrow further comments.

Kind regards from Paul.
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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Sat 08 Sep 2018, 06:38

Paul,

  I am just reading through some of the links you provided before making any comment.
This thread could well become an interesting one especially at the present political situation world wide.

Dirk.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Sat 08 Sep 2018, 14:34

Paul,

 had a read through some of your links and you have indeed come up with a topic which at present is worthwhile pondering about.
It seems to me that "Schild en Vrienden " is some kind of organisation set up or started by students and that already is  interesting.

It appears that students are increasingly becoming more interested in local , and upon times also in foreign, politics.

And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey.

Apart from "Schild en Vrienden " in Belgium there are indications of some student,s organisations in Germany and some Balkan countries.

Although there are regular demonstrations organised by students here in the UK ( mainly London area) there seems to be NO evidence of any student organisation aiming to cause public unrest.

But yes, in time to come things can change and we can all remember what  organised students can do:

the student led demonstration resulting in the 1989 Tiananmen Square revolution
the 1989 so-called Velvet revolution in Czechoslovakia
the 2011 Egyptian revolution organised by various youth groups

and going back a few years what about the 1956 revolution in Hungary.


Thus Paul , in other words students organisations have proved over the years that they are a group of people to be reckoned with.
Yes, we live in interesting times.:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12431231




Dirk
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Sat 08 Sep 2018, 23:48

@Dirk Marinus wrote:
Paul,

 had a read through some of your links and you have indeed come up with a topic which at present is worthwhile pondering about.
It seems to me that "Schild en Vrienden " is some kind of organisation set up or started by students and that already is  interesting.

It appears that students are increasingly becoming more interested in local , and upon times also in foreign, politics.

And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey.

Apart from "Schild en Vrienden " in Belgium there are indications of some student,s organisations in Germany and some Balkan countries.

Although there are regular demonstrations organised by students here in the UK ( mainly London area) there seems to be NO evidence of any student organisation aiming to cause public unrest.

But yes, in time to come things can change and we can all remember what  organised students can do:

the student led demonstration resulting in the 1989 Tiananmen Square revolution
the 1989 so-called Velvet revolution in Czechoslovakia
the 2011 Egyptian revolution organised by various youth groups

and going back a few years what about the 1956 revolution in Hungary.


Thus Paul , in other words students organisations have proved over the years that they are a group of people to be reckoned with.
Yes, we live in interesting times.:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12431231




Dirk

Dirk thank you for the immediate reply. And thank you too for the link about Egypt.

"And am I correct in assuming that it seems to have gathered speed over the last few years especially since the influx of asylum seekers from the Middle East, Africa and some other parts like Afghanistan ,Turkey."

Yes you are correct and that was one of their aims as I provided in the youtube about the demonstration at the Ghent Gravensteen.
But there is more, as most ultra right movements you find everywhere the same ingredients to fashion their "identity" The "manly" structure, the leader, the glorification of power, especially physical power, the making of a common ennemy, before, the Jews and other undesirables and now the migrants (I don't say they aren't a problem, but it is not their way that the difficulties will be solved), and last but not least the ultraconservative church and the old values of religion family (a normal! family). In the convent of Maleizen even "catholic" creationism....A bit à la Pétain in Vichy France...See Poland, see Hungary, see Sweden, see Russia. The question is of course how many real adherents they have in reality..in the case of Russia I doubt that even with all that public bombast, the real adherence is that tremendous great...but yes Hitler started also from that small  embryo...and Russia can't be compared with the Spain of Caudillo Franco, because nowadays Russia is not the prewar Spain...

But to return to "Schild en Vrienden" it seems to be "one"! of the many far right small movements in Europe that are growing now with the migrant crisis. And I think the reaction of the government is the right one, not overemphasizing the actuality and do what they have to do...but I am a bit surprized that in the fever of the coming polls that the parties don't use it that much to a right wing party in the government...and this morning looking to the teletext of the French language television I was surprized that they even not mentioned the case today...electoral peace to let not explode future coalitions...

Dirk, as you understand Dutch and German I will try to prove that I was right with my links about ultra right and ultra conservative Catholicism even condamned by the present Belgian bishops...
http://www.hetoudekloostermaleizen.be/
https://www.kerknet.be/kerknet-redactie/nieuws/crevits-laat-ultra-katholieke-school-opnieuw-controleren
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altes_Kloster_Maleizen
Read especially about the "school St.Ignatius and internat"
http://www.hildecrevits.be/nl/het-gewoon-een-katholieke-school
And a left wing site, which of course "spint garen" (how to translate Dirk?) with all this interesting events
https://blokbuster.be/?p=11410
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diener_Jesu_und_Mariens
And again the "Maleizen" in Overeise...

No I don't want to overrate that little party...perhaps best to compare with the Verdinaso in Flemish Belgium in the interwar period...I read about a three thousand members on its apogee...

And perhaps those guys will solve it...the Benelux and France...and they reckon on Merkel too...
https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-elections-2019/news/france-benelux-to-propose-eu-aid-for-africa-in-return-for-migrant-help/


Kind regards from Paul.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 12:10

Many of the tactics and a lot of the language coming from Britain’s Conservative government and their supporters in the press are disturbingly reminiscent of that of the German National Socialists in the early 1930s.

A rigged referendum so that the government can thereafter claim it has the "will of the people" to push whatever agenda it wants; a drip-feed of mendacious propaganda through the popular press; the casual labelling of the judiciary as "enemies of the people"; and the vilification of  anyone who is not fully behind the great cause as actively working to undermine the state and its population. Just a couple of months ago the Conservative MP David Campbell Bannerman voiced his opinion that even all this drip-feed of hate didn’t go far enough. He wrote (25 July 2018): “It is about time we brought the Treason Act up to date and made it apply to those seeking to destroy or undermine the British state. That means extreme jihadis. It also means those in future actively working undemocratically against U.K through extreme EU loyalty”. There was a swell of outrage by most, though not all, of his fellow MPs but the right wing media continue to push the same agenda.
 
Meanwhile the language from May and all the other Tory cronies seems to be already trying to put all the blame for the failure to seamlessly Brexit and the rapidly approaching disaster, firmly onto the EU, remainers, judges, business leaders, academics, experts, … indeed anyone but themselves. May has repeatedly demanded that the EU come up with a solution to the Irish Border issue, despite the whole problem being solely a consequence of the UK’s decision to Brexit, while at the same time she repeatedly refuses to countenance all the obvious practical ways out. Meanwhile Raab accuses the EU of failing to negociate in good faith because they refuse to break international laws (laws originally agreed by the UK), or simply fail to see any benefit to themselves by agreeing to the UK’s selfish demands.

This is all very like the Dolchstoßlegende (meaning "stab-in-the-back") – the idea that Germany did not lose the first world war militarily, but was betrayed by the post-war government of the Weimar Republic by defeatists, degenerates, cultural Marxists and of course, Jews. For the conservative and nationalistic Deutsch-Nationale Volkspartei (the German National People's Party or DNVP) the legend fitted perfectly well into their political strategy for mass mobilisation against the Weimar Republic, who they accused of "ruthless persecution of the honest national opposition".

Dolchstoßlegende was largely a myth unsupported, then as now, by any substantial evidence, although it was widely believed in post-WW1 Germany, and it destabilised the Weimar democracy to such a very high degree that it greatly facilitated the rise of National Socialism. It was not necessarily the aggressive conspiracy theory itself that helped the Nazis but rather the breakdown of all political debate. After 1924 the two political camps were not able to communicate anymore: the right-wingers had convinced themselves that the country really had been stabbed in the back by internal elements who they reckoned were still in power, while the democrats were left to discover that any attempt to clarify the events was hopeless as all evidence was simply dismissed as being politically contrived lies (so rather like current attempts to discuss the effects of Brexit are all too often simply dismissed by the leave side as "project fear"). The ‘stab-in-the-back’ tactic is a very old, tried and tested one, but evidently it is still going strong today - the overall politics are largely the same and it’s only the presentation - expensive suits instead of Hugo Boss uniforms - that has changed.

But the real danger to my mind is what happens next. A Britain in deep recession split down the middle by Brexit will be an extremist's dream and the outriders of authoritarianism are already on the march. Brexit might well prove to be the nearest thing to a revolution that the country has experienced since Cromwell. It will certainly give rise to chaos and a thoroughly divided and weakened country for many years, and is likely to poison UK-European relations for at least a generation, with global implications. And the fault lies squarely with those Tory spivs who saw in it an opportunity to forward their own political careers, and their backers who saw a way to make a fortune: their actions are shameless, if not treasonous.

Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy.


Last edited by Meles meles on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:33; edited 2 times in total
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:20

@Meles meles wrote:
Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy.

Cassandra's curse wasn't that her prophesies were gloomy, but that they were accurate and no one believed her - so let's hope indeed that you're not emulating poor Cassie.

I was up around the border last month - in towns on both sides of the line and of differing levels of local nationalist or unionist tradition - and got talking to people about the Brexit issue. If anyone in England suspects even a fraction of the bitter feeling of absolute betrayal felt towards them by otherwise reasonable and mild-mannered people in this neck of the woods I imagine they'd seriously need to reconsider any notion of taking a holiday in that corner of the Emerald Isle for a long time to come yet! The nationalists I spoke to were slightly more stoic about the betrayal bit - that much at least they have been educated to expect by their community leaders over the years - but rather novelly shared this idea of having been ruthlessly treated this time with their unionist neighbours, who feel this sense of betrayal most acutely and expressed an absolute conviction that even by historical standards they are deemed immaterial by "mainlanders". One DUP local stalwart, when I asked about the arrangement whereby his party is keeping May in power, likened this to the story of the little boy in Holland who stopped the flood by sticking his finger in the dyke. Except in this new English version the boy was given a few bob to first undertake the venture, and only then realised the enormity of what would happen once his digit was extracted - while those who paid him ran like f*ck to whatever small hump in the wilderness they thought might represent a hill. I related this to a nationalist in Derry, whose answer surprised me - "He said that? Then we're rightly f*cked." Most people I talked to, whether with a particular nationalist or unionist axe to grind or not, agreed that the English had simply proven beyond doubt that in a flawed democracy stupidity will eventually triumph - and remember this is from people who know more than most exactly what they're talking about in this regard.

I agree with your parallels, MM, between Brexit and German society of the late 20s and early 30s, especially with regard to the economic and power-play implications it does indeed portend and which already have marked similarities to those earlier events. However a crucial difference I think that applies in this case is that this self-inflicted act of gross stupidity by the English on the so-called "united" kingdom (from which they always struggled to distinguish themselves in terms of identity anyway and rather stupidly assumed "British" and "English" to be interchangeable terms when it suited them) will unravel the fabric of their society along frayed threads that extend far further back in time than those that the Nazis could exploit in Germany, for example. I'd even up the Cassandra ante a notch and prophesy that, this time, even the most deviously Machiavellian right-wing totalitarian-in-waiting will have a hard time exploiting this meltdown when it eventually reaches full flow.

"Interesting times" as I heard more than once remarked with enigmatic understatement (or maybe just plain sarcastically) by many to whom I spoke on my little fact-finding mission.

PS: The Drumclay crannóg excavation was fascinating - I was lucky enough to coincide with a once-a-year visit by the Queens team to the area and tagged along. Thanks Mary!
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:46

I had written a post but had a message to review it as another post had been entered in the meantime (nordmann's above).  My post had disappeared - it's okay nordmann I'll forgive you.  Anyway, here goes again, although the extreme right tabloids are not really for me, I think there was (still is) room for reform in the EU.  There accusations of there being a 'gravy train' in the EU had some substance though they were probably very much exaggerated.  I don't want to derail the thread revisiting my time with the conspiracy theorists when I was laid up but I'll say that a popular one is that the Holocaust was fake - some of the people call YouTube "JewTube" also - and thinking of going back to the 1930s I wouldn't want to see this happen again:- 
They also seem to hold that the "okay" sign is 666, the mark of the antichrist.
[size=36]????[/size]

So Obama and Beyonce and J-Z are controlled by the Illuminati!  There must have been lots of nice, normal Germans in Germany in the 1930s but still the Nazis came to power; hopefully the loony tunes on YouTube are a minority but I worry a little about if the got together!

For the avoidance of doubt I don't think Obama and B and J-Z are illuminati puppets.  As an aside, I envy you nordmann managing to visit that "dig".
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 13:55

For some reason the "okay" hand sign emoji did not work when I copied and pasted it - or when I tried entering the unicode sequence so I'll provide the link.  https://emojipedia.org/ok-hand-sign/
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:01

Yes, to avoid being a party to the abject stupidity of your co-patriots, it is essential that you first ensure that as an individual you yourself are not prey to stupid generalisations and misinformed opinion posing as fact. For example, if there has been identified a "need for reform" within any system, the logical first step is then to itemise those things that require reformation, at least to your own satisfaction. If and when enough people do this then colectively use the machinery to hand to implement the required reform. If a "gravy train" exists then find out who is on it, who runs the train company, where it's heading, and then derail it - or preferably, simply stop it and put it out of commission using the signals and side-spurs already provided in the rail infrastructure.

All of these measures are forward-thinking, analytical, undramatic, and proven effective in the past when intelligently applied (as they indeed have been, many times, even just within the context of the EU over its existence too). But of course, being an act of reasonable intelligence, they require therefore at minimum an avoidance of gross stupidity, and therein lies the rub ...

Sorry Cassie, we're putting you out of a job, here.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:06

LiR wrote:
As an aside, I envy you nordmann managing to visit that "dig".

A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact. But the stuff coming out has been remarkable - wicker and worked leather dated conservatively to 500BCE for example. I recommend a visit to the small museum in Enniskillen (but disguise your accent while you're there, or at least wear a sign around your neck that you have Boris sussed), and if you ask politely they may allow you access to the conservation area where they're currently working on some of the finds.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:30

I did vote "Remain" though someone I know (not a silly lady either) said she voted "Leave" because she thinks the EU will collapse in on itself in a few years.  The press, or at least some silly members of the press, (and the Beeb wasn't entirely innocent) engaged in divisive broadcasting by taking the line that it was "old" people who voted "Leave".  Stuff and nonsense from the press - I'm old and I didn't vote "Leave" and most of the people I know of around my own age from U3A etc also voted "Remain".  I'll admit I was surprised when the news announced that the Leavers had won the day after the vote.  "First past the post" may have limitations but it's what we have and we have to make the best of it.  I wonder how many of those bashing the oldsters actually took the trouble to go and vote.

Are you inferring that I "as an individual" am "prey to stupid opinions and misinformed opinion posing as fact"? I hope my common sense has not entirely deserted me, nordmann.  I'm human and can make an error as can anyone and have never claimed to be infallible.  I respect your right to disagree with me.

Are feelings that bad that I'd have to disguise my accent?  I know someone whose son recently married a lady from Northern Ireland (not sure whether Armagh City or County Armagh).  The marriage has taken place since the last time I saw the mother-of-the-groom but it was scheduled to take place at Belfast Castle.  I didn't even know there was a castle at Belfast.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Mon 10 Sep 2018, 14:54

Only tangentially connected to the thread really, but I just did an online search about "Belfast Castle" and from what I can see the original Belfast Castle (on a different site) was burnt down and the existing one is more what I would describe as a "county house" https://www.belfastcastle.co.uk/  For me a "real" castle has crenellations and fortifications.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 00:17

Meles meles and nordmann,

thank you very much for your insightful messages. As it is too late to comment...but also for Dirk marinus I want to add to the former message about the far right movement "Schild en Vrienden" that I compared with the Verdinaso of the interwar period and as I see now that I forgot to post the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdinaso
And it was that close in our neighbourhood between Ghent and Bruges and still a site I have seen of people nowadays dedicated to the memory of Joris van Severen...
And to LiR
Interesting documentary from the ZDF that I used years ago on the French forum "How Hitler came to power" Hitler's prise du pouvoir
(power grab?): Machtsergreifung.
There is automatic translation in English...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWEJt1MhS5k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1svq1SG4oC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdSSvIhH3o


Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 08:22

Use of the generic "you" can lead to conversational confusion. Most languages don't allow it but English can be gloriously nihilistic at times - or as John Updike once remarked "a right tart in her debauched senility, having slept with every language under the sun and looking none the healthier for it". Apologies if it seemed I was singling you out LiR - though your friend who "felt" that the EU would "collapse in on itself" should really be tasked with explaining on what grounds her feeling was based, and indeed pointing out why it is best apparently not to actively engage in preventing this eventuality but instead to inflict an even worse economic fate on one's own country (which I assume she did not really see as extending beyond the English border).

While not an unqualified supporter of the EU, which I see as an amalgam of flawed processes but with rather substantial economic safety nets built into the design rather than as the caricature "bureaucracy for the sake of it" which has become popular among a largely uneducated British public, I still see it as probably the most crucial difference-maker in this badly staged parody of the rise of fascism a la 1930s Europe. This week's pursuance within the European Parliament of an effective censure against Poland's decision to renege on its ethical commitments as an EU member in order to prosecute a populist and extreme rightwing agenda designed to secure and prolong power for its current government regime "at home", for example, is something that might have made a huge difference indeed had Hitler's nascent coalition of dissent held together by a minority fascist element been faced at the outset with something of similar hue, an even greater coalition of European neighbours with the power to reprimand. The true extent of German nationalism as Hitler & Co liked to think conformed in principle and nature to their own narrow definition (and enforced this definition with extreme prejudice afterwards) might at least have been discovered, and democratically too. One cannot really conjecture the full extent of such "what ifs", but it does appear to me that this extra hurdle to clear as he prepared to plummet his adopted country into the grotesque parody of a nation that he ultimately achieved may have proven sufficient to stymie his ambitions, or at least to have moderated them utterly. That is an important check and balance to have in place, one that was missing then (if one discounts the ineffectual League of Nations which imposed no ethical commitments on its members anyway), but one that is present now. Or at least present as long as the majority of Europeans do not fall into the same trap of short-sighted and badly informed stupidity that Britain has.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 09:23

Being aware that Scandinavian politics may not be the most interesting for everyone, I shall point to this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2018 which corresponds with what has been reported in this country.
 
A quote, “According to The Guardian, the growth of the SD "upended perhaps western Europe’s most stable political order," and other commentators made similar statements.”
 
In my opinion this article is at present relatively un-biased.
 
A personal comment, the above mentioned article just mentions the Sverigesdemokraterne – SD – more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats
 
In media in Scandinavia and somewhat in EU countries the SD are ‘not liked’ because of their right-wing tendencies, their criticism of the Swedish immigration policy, and of their EU skepticism.
 
A ‘hung’ parliament following a muddled election.
 
Interesting times.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 22:23

@Nielsen wrote:
Being aware that Scandinavian politics may not be the most interesting for everyone, I shall point to this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2018 which corresponds with what has been reported in this country.
 
A quote, “According to The Guardian, the growth of the SD "upended perhaps western Europe’s most stable political order," and other commentators made similar statements.”
 
In my opinion this article is at present relatively un-biased.
 
A personal comment, the above mentioned article just mentions the Sverigesdemokraterne – SD – more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats
 
In media in Scandinavia and somewhat in EU countries the SD are ‘not liked’ because of their right-wing tendencies, their criticism of the Swedish immigration policy, and of their EU skepticism.
 
A ‘hung’ parliament following a muddled election.
 
Interesting times.

Nielsen,

thank you very much for your links especially for the statitics.
Have a look to the documentary: die Machtsergreifung and the statistics how Hitler came to power. Read about "Kaas".See how the Nazi party gained power after the Wallstreet cirisis and how that was translated in the statistics.
And how Hitler lurred Kaas of the KPD to vote for the annihilation of the Weimar republic
http://www.gonschior.de/weimar/Deutschland/Uebersicht_RTW.html
From my thread:
http://passion-histoire.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=22834&hilit=prise+du+pouvoir+Hitler

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 22:52

@nordmann wrote:
A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact.

Toiling around the muddy byways of Fermanagh? Not so much back to the 1930s perhaps as maybe back to the 1910s.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:04

Meles meles,

"Perhaps I’m being an overly dramatic Cassandra but the future for democracy does look increasingly rather gloomy."

I don't see it that gloomy and as I see it comparing the different countries Britain is not such a difference to the rest. In my opinion qua democracy it are more the former East Block countries, who have the heaviest tendencies to the far right...I see that up to now, if I interpreted it well Romania is an exception. And on the Brexit I expect in the near future some kind of deal, but I agree the inter Irish border, that nordmann recently visited is a real problem...and yes there are lots of problems (Scotland?) seemingly where one had not thought about in the immediate aftermath of the polls...
I hope however that there is no a new worldwide financial crisis in the near future, which is a new "aubaine" (God's send?) for the nationalistic populists on top of the migrant crisis...that are perhaps then again the Thirties...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:21

Addendum to the previous message;

Meles meles and Nielsen and also this:
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-europe-populist-right/

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Tue 11 Sep 2018, 23:25

@Vizzer wrote:
@nordmann wrote:
A rather aquatic "dig" in fact. More a frantic bailing out of a swamp, in fact.

Toiling around the muddy byways of Fermanagh? Not so much back to the 1930s perhaps as maybe back to the 1910s.


Vizzer glad to see you once again on this board. I am always looking forward to your contributions.

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Are we back to the Thirties?   Wed 12 Sep 2018, 23:30

@nordmann wrote:
this self-inflicted act of gross stupidity by the English on the so-called "united" kingdom (from which they always struggled to distinguish themselves in terms of identity anyway and rather stupidly assumed "British" and "English" to be interchangeable terms when it suited them)

This annoying phenomenon doesn't get any better and can sometimes come from the most unlikely of quarters. Only today there was a report from Newry on the Channel 4 News. When it concluded the studio anchor Jon Snow informed the viewers that they had just been watching "Paraic O`Brien on the Irish/Anglo border".
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