An history book where all three novels are mentioned and commented: Producing the Pacific: Maps and narratives of Spanish Exploration (1567-1606) https://goo.gl/jf83rj
And she did it...nearly as great as Maggelhaen...from Peru to the Philippines...
Kind regards, Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Wed 06 Jul 2016, 21:23
Addendum to the previous message.
And this is more for Caro...
I discussed in the time on the BBC board about Cook and Australia... And there I mentioned that it were the Dutch who had in fact first discovered Australia... And now I see that the Spanish also navigated in the street between Guinea and Australia and seeing the continent.. http://diariodepontevedra.galiciae.com/blog/421883/el-gallego-que-descubrio-australia
And while Caro perhaps is reading this, she from New Zeeland and her son in England, and our neighbour, she near Bruges and her son in Singapore and in two weeks the grand-daughter again for work on a six months permit to New York... As here on this small Res Historica we all conversing near in real time from all over the world... It became a small world...when I was young New Zeeland was for me the end of the world...I remember to have read a novel from Nevil Shute where people were retreated to Australia? New Zeeland? after a catastrophic atomic war...yes really the end of the world...and see now...it's all interconnected...and nearly in contacts at the doorstep...
Kind regards from Paul.
Triceratops Censura
Posts : 4377 Join date : 2012-01-05
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Thu 07 Jul 2016, 10:16
The story of Ching Shih, Pirate Empress of the Red Flag Fleet;
Damned lost again by returning an entire part of my message ... Start again
and for the second time lost my message
Will stop it for this evening
Priscilla Censura
Posts : 2769 Join date : 2012-01-16
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Thu 07 Jul 2016, 23:04
I nominate Artemisia 1 of Caria who took five ships to join Xerxes fleet at Salamis..... with a price of 10 000 drachmas offered by the Greeks if she was captured alive. This she skilfully avoided when in flight by raising Greek colours and then attacking a ship of her Persian allies; that it was commanded by someone she greatly disliked may have been by chance....mmm. The Greeks assumed she was either a Greek supporter or a turncoat and she got away. Seeing Xerxes brother dead in the water she took him to him. I know not if he had been on the doomed Persian ship but Xerxes didn't get huffy. It seems that Xerxes thought she was a great commander and asked her advice about his staying on once the battle was lost. She advised him to leave the fighting to Mardonias, Xerxes could then, she suggested, claim any victory for himself and Persia ,and if Mardonias failed then he would be safely out of the way. I am not sure if this is the sort of thing admirals do ( I have Admirals and Rear Admirals in my own history and I don't know what they did, either) - or, for that matter if Artemisia was admirable, either. So this is just my 2 penneth on the subject and offered as a relief to give old history an outing. ID might be able do the fill in and corrections on mt take of this affair.
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 07:38
And don't forget this lassie (though the English did a pretty good job of wishing they'd never heard of her at the time!)
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3309 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 10:50
nordmann wrote:
And don't forget this lassie (though the English did a pretty good job of wishing they'd never heard of her at the time!)
Is that Grace O'Malley (anglicised version of the name), Nordmann - or at least an artist's impression of the lady?
On another thread Temperance mentioned Game of Thrones as being addictive if lowbrow. Apparently the character of Yara Greyjoy (Asha in the books) was based at least in part on Grace O'Malley and the author of the relevant novels, George R R Martin has called some of the cats he has had over the years "Grainne". (sp?)
Some of the comments are depressing though - of the school of real history would be boring!
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 18:35; edited 1 time in total
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:21
It is indeed LiR - more contemporary images also go along with the busts but emphasise the firepower, I imagine it was the latter that allegedly so impressed the Virgin Queen at the time (though one never knows).
Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5083 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:42
... Indeed, you never know... But I hadn't realised (until I consulted wiki) that the two actually met, when she went to Greenwich Palace in 1593 to petition the queen for her two captured sons. On that occasion Gainne/Grace sensibly put the pistols, and breasts, away and presented herself in a fine gown ... although she refused to bow nor did she acknowledge Elizabeth as queen. Their conversation was in Latin as neither was fluent in the other's language.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:28
PaulRyckier wrote:
Triceratops wrote:
The story of Ching Shih, Pirate Empress of the Red Flag Fleet;
Damned lost again by returning an entire part of my message ... Start again
and for the second time lost my message
Will stop it for this evening
Addendum to the previous message.
"While I was doing research yesterday I found on the site about Graves https://www.amazon.com/Islands-Unwisdom-Robert-Graves/dp/B0006AS1I2#reader_B00J3WO4TE some interesting statement...from the above site: Graves says in his introduction: "An English galleon was not readely distinguishable from a Spanish, and had much the same armement; but the Spanish seamen, though they knew their trade well, only worked a ship and did not fight her, while the soldiers, who were the best-disciplined in the world, fought, but dismissed to work her. Their naval and military officers were almost always at loggerheads, and the larger the vessel, the worse the mistrust and confusion." After some lenghty discussions on several history fora about the comparison between the English and the Spanish fleet that is new to me. If someone can confirm or invalidate that...? What I learned from former discussions was that the English ships were smaller and had more manoeuvrability, which was many times pivotal in a sea battle... Also the English ships seems to have had more standardised iron cast cannons, which became more and more reliable in comparison with the bronze guns which were more heat resistant in continuous firing...
I did some quick research on the net about the seamen/soldiers question and found no definite answer...but in the meantime I learned a lot about the Spanish fleet in the 16th century... Some hints from my research: https://goo.gl/pyuNGb
For fear to lose again my message I will add the other links in a separate message...
Kind regards, Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:37
The modified English ‘race’ galleons developed by John Hawkins (Sir Francis Drake’s cousin) proved decisive in defeating the capacious Spanish galleons. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews. The English ships, led by skilled commanders such as Sir Francis Drake and John Hawkins, were able to manoeuvre around the Spanish Armada, bombarding it from a distance"
"Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews."
Kind regards, Paul.
PS: If someone feels this is here "hors sujet" we can start a new thread about this specific question...
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:42
"The main warships of the Spanish Armada and English Fleet were galleons. The Spanish galleons of the Armada (Spanish word for fleet) were very heavy. These huge Spanish galleons continued in the old tradition of mediaeval sea battles, riding high out of the water. The height and broad beam made the ships awkward to sail. Their guns fired large cannon balls which were devastating at close quarters, but of limited range. Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside.
The modified English ‘race’ galleons developed by John Hawkins (Sir Francis Drake’s cousin) proved decisive in defeating the capacious Spanish galleons. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews. The English ships, led by skilled commanders such as Sir Francis Drake and John Hawkins, were able to manoeuvre around the Spanish Armada, bombarding it from a distance"
"Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews."
Kind regards, Paul.
PS: If someone feels this is here "hors sujet" we can start a new thread about this specific question...
Vizzer Censura
Posts : 1819 Join date : 2012-05-12
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sat 09 Jul 2016, 14:29
Priscilla wrote:
I nominate Artemisia 1 of Caria who took five ships to join Xerxes fleet at Salamis..... with a price of 10 000 drachmas offered by the Greeks if she was captured alive.
Good call Priscilla.
The complexities of Artemisia's story would lend credence to it. The paradox of her counselling against the naval battle and yet then fully committing to it after the decision had been made, is also very human. The somewhat odd attack upon a Persian vessel in order to evade capture is questionable. It can be taken at face value or else could possibly suggest someone who changed minds 4 times within the space of a day.
Intriguingly both historians Herodotus (pro-Athenian) and Ctesias (pro-Persian) were also Carian subjects. And while Herodotus gives a detailed and favourable account of Artemisia, Ctesias doesn't mention her at all. One might have expected it to have been the other way around. That said, one wonders just how much of Ctesias' Persica was left out in Photius' 9th century edition of the work.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Wed 13 Jul 2016, 21:51
I have now finished the novel from Alexandra Lapierre about Isabel Barreto.
I had a look to the local libraries to see if they had the work of Robert Graves from 1948 about the same Isabel. I mentioned overhere from Amazon. But no they haven't it. As I read the introduction on Amazon of Robert Graves, he did only a superficial research about the historicity.
What a difference with Alexandra Lapierre, who said in an addendum in her "remerciements" This is the fruit of a long and minituous research, which has overturned my life...to follow the tracks of Isabel Barreto without to have to interrupt my raids to the Bibliotheca Nacional de España and the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla, I even ended to move to Spain...in the same article she said that the research took three years...and further from her: how to thank the chain of friends, who, from one world to another, have lodged me, nourished, guided, supported me on all possible ways during my inquiries in Europe, Asia and South-America...
As historical novel writer I think Alexandra Lapierre is worth to be honoured for her endurance and meticulous research...
Kind regards, Paul.
Caro Censura
Posts : 1518 Join date : 2012-01-09
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Thu 14 Jul 2016, 07:30
I have at last got to replying to your query, Paul. I have no knowledge of early women sailors (though I do have a book (unread) called She Captains) but indeed the Dutch via Abel Tasman were the first Europeans known to have discovered Aotearoa (NZ - it is Maori Language Week). They didn't make landfall as the Maori they came across at the top of the South Island (which is Te Waipounamu in Maori, "waters of the pounamu", or jade if you prefer or greenstone) and rammed the small boat several members of the crew were on, and killed four of them, after which Tasman withdrew his ship. See http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/european-discovery-of-new-zealand/page-2 for more information. They called it Murderers Bay but that has since then been changed to Golden Bay - though our local Cannibal Bay about 10kms from where I live hasn't changed its name.
Only the name of the leader of these expeditions gets a general mention so while the name of Tasman is well-known to NZers, the rest of his crew is not. I don't remember ever hearing of Visscher or Gilseman before.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 15 Jul 2016, 21:27
I mentioned also to you last time, how interconnected the whole world became...here the best time on the continent (Britain + one hour) to write to each other in real time is in my opinion eleven o'clock in the evening...and even New Zealand became so close...on Jiglu I see some comments nearly everyday from Chris Morriss on the Syrian/Iraqi war and there are New Zealandian soldiers overthere too...and yesterday as one mentioned overhere New Zealand soldiers on the Bastille Day parade in Paris...commemoration of WWI...even with that worldwar now some one hundred years ago it became already a small world...Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Americans fighting far from their homes...
And actually I am again aware of that small world, while the grand-children part for overseas countries...the girl for a six months contract at New York...second time already...and the grandson joining a Belgian doctor ( a school friend) and his friend...female friend (I have always difficulties with words as "friend" as I see then a male...in Dutch and German we have at least the word "vriendin" and "Freundin" and in the Latin based languages as French and Spanish it is obvious...I have the same difficulty with the word "nurse" where I always see a female...) in Martinique. It is French overseas territory and as such part of the European Union (no pun intended) and the Euro is the currency...some years ago he was two times to Mayotte to the same doctor near La Réunion and Madagascar...
Yes it is indeed a small world...and I saw it perhaps three times once in California, in Florida and in Paris...I mean the Disney Parks...
OOPS and I forgot...and it all started in the 16th century...
Kind regards from your friend Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 15 Jul 2016, 21:40
And to go further of my mentioning of the French Mayotte and Martinique... In my thread "New scramble for the oceans" there was this link about the 200 miles zones and the exclusive economic zones... France seems to have the largest EEZ in the world even before the US...and it is all EEC territory ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sat 16 Jul 2016, 15:19
Oh no! not the old "Spanish Galleons" canard again! The Spanish were about the last major naval power to adopt the galleon configuration. At the time of the First Armada, the Spanish ships were NOT galleons, they were old-fashioned High-Charged ships (and the best were the Portuguese naos), with fore and after castles. The newer English ships, from the time of the first Hawkins bargain onward, were "race-built" galleons, lower at the bow, and much more maneuverable. Older English vessels, such as Frobisher's flagship "Triumph" were still high-charged - incidentally, Triumph is frequently thought to have been the largest vessel on either side (at around 1,000 English tons - about 2,000 by Spanish measure). Yes, the Spanish still tended to regard the soldiers as the principal fighters on board, and many of their guns were on field carriages, ready to be landed to support Parma's army. They were lashed in place, and, to reload them, the gunners had to climb over the gunwales and work suspended above the oggin. Incidentally, I once attended a lecture given by a female admiral. http://www.famousscientists.org/grace-murray-hopper/
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sat 16 Jul 2016, 19:53
Thank you so much for your take on the Spanish/ English fleet comparison, Gil. Can you enlarge even a bit, on the question of cannons for instance...
And glad to see you once back on the boards, Gil.
Kind regards from your friend Paul.
Gilgamesh of Uruk Censura
Posts : 1560 Join date : 2011-12-27
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sat 16 Jul 2016, 22:02
Also worth remembering that despite having the two sailors the Spanish stood in most awe of, El Draque and Achines, the English found it advisable to bestow the command on Howard, as he was a nobleman, although more a courtier and soldier than a fighting sailor, for all his title as Lord Admiral (beware "admiral" in Spanish usage btw - the C-in-C was normally referred to as "Capitano" with "al-Mirante" being his understrapper, thus the galleass "San Lorenzo" captured off Calais is described as the "Capitana Galleas" in a near-contemporary painting)
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sun 17 Jul 2016, 21:06
Thank you very much for the link, Gil. I read it with great interest. And that link sparked a new search on the internet...
An interesting site for the comparison between the English and the Spanish vessels and also about the history of the Spanish "silverfleets": http://www.cindyvallar.com/galleons.html
Some additional remarks: After the Armada disaster the Spanish ship building seems not be halted at all... I read also about a big shipbuilding industry in the new colonies...perhaps for internal movements between the Philipines, Mexico, Peru?
Kind regards, Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sun 17 Jul 2016, 21:23
And even a film about it...and I am nearly sure that I saw it in the time not realizing that the film was about the book that I read some years before... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_All_Boats
It all came to my mind while reading about the "manoeuvring" in the Spanish invading armada... And I strongly recommend the book to you...especially you with your "maritime" experience...
Kind regards from your friend Paul.
Gilgamesh of Uruk Censura
Posts : 1560 Join date : 2011-12-27
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sun 17 Jul 2016, 23:28
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Fri 02 Dec 2016, 19:26
Yes her life reads as a novel. What a woman!
Kind regards, Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3309 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sun 28 Jun 2020, 14:00
I wasn't quite sure where to post this. I was reading online about sundry pirate women. There was an article on the Greenwich Museum site. The article mentioned that some of the exploits (not all) may owe something to the Victorian popular cheap and cheerful reads known as 'penny dreadfuls' or 'penny horribles' which span yarns maybe more to entertain than to reflect true history. The likes of Ann Bonny and Mary Read weren't admirals of course. How does a layperson like myself learn to deduce credible historical reports from fiction or very much embroidered tales.
nordmann Nobiles Barbariæ
Posts : 7223 Join date : 2011-12-25
Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history Sun 28 Jun 2020, 14:19
When studying historiography one time the tutor prefaced her first lecture to us, her attentive students (opening class concentration levels), with the following caveat when it came to ascertaining the cause of any fiction entering the historical record.
There are, she said, three distinct sources of fiction posing as history -
1. History recorded by an unfaithful scribe who has inserted untruths intentionally in the service of an agenda unrelated to historical veracity 2. History recorded by a faithful, if gullible, scribe who has meticulously recorded myth as fact without knowing how to distinguish one from the other, or even that such distinction should exist, and ... 3. ... History recorded by humans
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Subject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history
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