Always interested since I was on the history messageboards (2002) in the history of the relationship between "church" ideology (and "church" can be also an ideology as Nazism or Stalinism or new style People's Republic Confucianism, Legalism) and state.
I made already several times an approach overhere about that question last time I suppose on the Confucius thread and the Christian/Islam thread.
And always had a good respons from nordmann in those matters. I hope he will comment this approach too.
https://reshistorica.forumotion.com/t1257-confucius

I saw this morning a documentary about the relationship between Putin and the Patriarch of Moscow, seemingly in both their advantage. And in the documentary the old nationalist Jirinowski (I will check the spelling) the utopian, from whom we were that afraid some twenty years ago, is there again alife and kicking you will see in the documentary (I guess as far as he works together with Putin. And even in Syria and Libanon the patriarch and Putin work together..
And now there is the danger of the independence of the Ukrainian Orthodox church, after all even Moscow is depending from the patriarch of Constantinople...and that is also the mirior of the new political reality on the ground.

If Islanddawn reads this and as she is knowledgeable about the "orthodox" I wonder what she is thinking about all "this"

But first the documentary. And you can have translation in English by tapping on the subtitling...even in Armenian and all that, I tried even in Latin, unbelievable, but for the robot Latin or Armenian or whatever is I suppose all the same technology...




Let it here for tonight and will comment tomorrow further...

Kind regards from Paul.

Addendum:

More political drip outs from the marriage? The split between the Moscow patriarch and the Constantinople one? About Ukraine?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45529355

Islanddawn if you read this...you seems to know a bit about all those "orthodox" ones...

Kind regards from Paul.

And again about the split with the church of Constantinople, the so called first among the equals...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45877584
From the link...
"Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko says Church independence - officially called "autocephaly"- is "an issue of Ukrainian national security". He called the Constantinople Patriarchate's decision of 11 October "a great victory for the devout Ukrainian nation over the Moscow demons, a victory of good over evil, light over darkness". "

A lot of political consequences, as in Serbia and in Greece too?

But one has to read the entire link of the BBC, while it is too complex to explain it in one sentence

Islanddawn where are you? I saw you recently lurking at the board...

Kind regards from Paul.

Sorry Paul, but I really can't help. I'm still in the middle of too much upheaval here to be able to put one coherent sentence together and certainly not on such a complicated subject.  I don't really fully understand it all myself to be honest and after all these years, it is a topic for one that has actually grown up in the Orthodox world and in the Balkans. Outsiders like myself rarely fully grasp the intricacies and implications.

Islanddawn wrote:

Sorry Paul, but I really can't help. I'm still in the middle of too much upheaval here to be able to put one coherent sentence together and certainly not on such a complicated subject.  I don't really fully understand it all myself to be honest and after all these years, it is a topic for one that has actually grown up in the Orthodox world and in the Balkans. Outsiders like myself rarely fully grasp the intricacies and implications.

Again lost my message...the famous "not mode specified" and gone my message...I start again...

Islanddawn,

"Outsiders like myself rarely fully grasp the intricacies and implications."
I completely understand that. Insiders like me have even problems to fully grasp the intricacies and implications of the Belgian story...

"I'm still in the middle of too much upheaval here to be able to put one coherent sentence together "

That I fully understand too...myself having in a short time after each other to set for hire two appartments...the first refurbished and successful hired and the second now the same successfull to a Venezuelean girl (trouble with Maduro...300,000 in Spain...40,000 working). But she is lucky having a Belgian sister-in-law (Belgian de souche) and having a diploma of nurse...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45640307
But still to refurbish the appartment...and also a workload in the family...with a heavy heart I have to let pass the discussion on Passion Histoire about Hitler and Nazism and to what extent the two influenced each other...

But Islanddawn feel free to contribute in the range of your possible free time that you want to consecrate to this board.
And I think that I can speak in the name of all the contributors: Your input is always much appreciated.

Kind regards from Paul.

Thankyou Paul. Shortly I'm going to be off line for a few weeks as well, but I hope to get back when all is settled.

Thank you Islanddawn for mentioning that you will be off line for some weeks and I wish that the going down south will run smootly and without too much problems.

Kind regards to you in your hectic time.

Paul.

I think it links back to the Eastern Roman Empire. The Orthodox Church there developed the doctrine of Caesaropapism. Basically the church and state are one.

Scribe and Saint welcome to the boards.
I had a lot of trouble to enter this link with constant warning of my security wall.
Can it be that it is from this link that I mentioned in a former message? Although it is provided in a BBC link.
"And again about the split with the church of Constantinople, the so called first among the equals...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45877584
From the BBC link...
"Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko says Church independence - officially called "autocephaly"- is "an issue of Ukrainian national security". He called the Constantinople Patriarchate's decision of 11 October "a great victory for the devout Ukrainian nation over the Moscow demons, a victory of good over evil, light over darkness". "
A lot of political consequences, as in Serbia and in Greece too?
But one has to read the entire link of the BBC, while it is too complex to explain it in one sentence"

Perhaps I will have to eliminate the link? To avoid again the trouble. If you click on it, it is now in Greek and under construction.
Perhaàps have some anti-Ukrainian Russians hacked the BBC link ?

But back to your question: Yes, perhaps in the time of the Eastern Roman Empire "Caesaropapism". But is it that much changed? Even in the Byzantine time, kings and caesars were working together for the benefit of both. Only some trouble from time to time with for instance a Holy Roman Emperor in the Western Holy Empire
https://www.medievalists.net/2017/08/walk-canossa-tale-emperor-pope/
or the French Gallicanism
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Gallicanism
And yes those French had to wait till 1905 to get rid of that "Church", but in the Cathar question kings and popes worked happily together if I recall it well.

But nowadays "Caesaropapism" Hmm, I doubt...just a clever Putin (state), who seek some help from Cyril (church) in the benefit of the two and I suppose more advantageous for Putin?
As you can see in the Ukrainian article, the politics use the Church as well for their political goals.
And I guess that China uses, not a religion but a philosophy this time, "Confucianism" (Confucius Institutes) also as a means for political goals?

Kind regards, Paul.