A discussion forum for history enthusiasts everywhere
 
HomeHome  Recent ActivityRecent Activity  Latest imagesLatest images  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  SearchSearch  

Share | 
 

 British Tems

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
ComicMonster
Consulatus
ComicMonster

Posts : 197
Join date : 2017-10-24

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: British Tems   British Tems EmptyThu 06 Jul 2023, 12:39

Hello everyone!
How long!
I just got back from vacation (in England, by the way, up to Hadrian's Wall) and I have already found my first enigma.
Do you know what the "British Tems" are?
Internet searches are just deplorable: I get into a loop that "explains" it is the name of a Nigerian-British singer; the designation of a delicate surgical operation; a Montessori school; some kind of technological program... Nothing that matches the bridgehead that Claudius's Roman legions established on the River Thames in 43, after a long clash with the natives...
Is it another way of pronouncing the word "Thames"?
I am really puzzled, since the author I translate uses the term to indicate a geographical point: "[The legions] crossed the Channel, and after marching inland, found the enemy lined up in large numbers on the far bank of the river Medway. The Romans met with fierce resistance, which they overwhelmed only after two days' heavy fighting. They then established a solid bridgehead at the river Thames (from the British Tems)."
I am pretty sure you are basically the single possibility of a solution I really have…

Thanks in advance for your wonderful help. Hope you are all happy and well.

CM
Back to top Go down
https://vueltaalmundo.es.tl
Meles meles
Censura
Meles meles

Posts : 5122
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyThu 06 Jul 2023, 13:29

Hello again, I hope you enjoyed your visit to Northumberland. Did you visit anywhere other than Hadrian's Wall; Alnwick, Bamburgh and Dunstanburgh castles perhaps, Lindisfarne Island, Durham Cathedral and Newcastle upon Tyne? My Dad came from just south of the Scottish border and so we had many holidays there when I were a lad.

Regarding your post, I think "... the river Thames (from the British Tems) ...", is simply to indicate the modern British pronunciation and show that its derivation is from the local British name in use at the time of the Roman invasion, although to my knowledge the Thames has never usually been spelled Tems. The current spelling and pronunciation (it is written 'Thames' but is pronounced 'Tems') derives from the Old English (Saxon) name for the river which was usually written as Tamese, Tamise or Tamyse etc, which was from the Latin, Tamesis, which name the Romans adopted direct from local usage and which was probably originally pronounced something like Tamis, Tames, Tamesa, or Tamessas, but since this was a Brythonic name it was never written down by the original speakers. I can't say I've ever seen the river written as 'Tems' in any old documents. Note also that none of the pre-Norman spellings use Th - this seems to have been introduced only in the 13th century as a French-influenced affectation into Middle English. In Old English the name was always spelled with an initial letter t and never with either an initial þ or ð, both those letters subsequently being replaced by the digraph th - ie the original name was pronounced "tems" with a hard 't' and never "thems" with a lisped 't'. Similarly with the shift of vowel sounds over the centuries the written 'a' in Thames is now (or was perhaps always?) pronounced like a short 'e'.

So although the spelling "tems" is maybe a bit unusual, I'm certain it just refers to the River Thames and has been used like that to explain that the modern river's name and its pronunciation ultimately derive from the local name then in use by the native British tribes. I hope that helps.

PS:

What's the book that you're translating?


Last edited by Meles meles on Thu 06 Jul 2023, 16:21; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : the PS plus correction of some very misleading punctuation)
Back to top Go down
ComicMonster
Consulatus
ComicMonster

Posts : 197
Join date : 2017-10-24

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyThu 06 Jul 2023, 14:46

Hi Meles meles, you offer here much more than just help. It's a comprehensive and very interesting explanation of an author comment that would have otherwise remained obscure (both for me and probably some of the Spanishs readers also, I am affraid).
I gather that you deduce this from your general knowledge of English history, etymology and culture. This is in no way intended to suggest that it might be inexact, of course, quite to the contrary: it seems to me so well understood and sensible that I would be more than happy to make a footnote out of it (otherwise, being a translation, I would be forced either to skip the author's point or leave it unexplained, and I don't think it fair to just add that note as if it came out of my own mind —which it's obviously not the case). Is there any source I could cite from or remit the reader to as a way for him or her to delve into it?
My wife and I have made a five weeks road trip in England, with our own wrong-side-of-the-road 4WD. Unfortunately we didn't see all the wonders you point at, not even the isle of Skye and at least one of the Orkneys, as we planned —due to some unforeseen contretemps—, but that only means we will have to resume the tour from we left it in the next future (noting, as I've just done, the places you so kindly suggest —thank you for that also Cheers).
Back to top Go down
https://vueltaalmundo.es.tl
ComicMonster
Consulatus
ComicMonster

Posts : 197
Join date : 2017-10-24

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyFri 07 Jul 2023, 09:24

Hello again, Meles meles.
I thought post hoc that my petition of sources might have been too pretentious, so I have managed to write down a note that sorts out my reservations. I didn't want to make things difficult. Sorry about that.

Take care, Smile
Back to top Go down
https://vueltaalmundo.es.tl
Meles meles
Censura
Meles meles

Posts : 5122
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyFri 07 Jul 2023, 10:08

The origins of the river name Thames and how it has been written and pronounced throughout the centuries is fairly well known and covered extensively, as any google search of "etymology thames" will show or even just a look at wiki (for all its short-comings). I'm afraid I don't know of any single comprehensive reference but as you say, as the book's translator, that might indeed be going beyond your remit. Wink
What is the book by the way?
Best wishes MM.
Back to top Go down
ComicMonster
Consulatus
ComicMonster

Posts : 197
Join date : 2017-10-24

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyFri 07 Jul 2023, 10:31

I see. The book (I guess I have to treat this info somewhat confidentially, being under contract) is Nero — Matricide, Music, and Murder in Imperial Rome, by Anthony Everitt and Roddy Ashworth. A really interesting book, by the way.


Last edited by ComicMonster on Fri 07 Jul 2023, 11:00; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
https://vueltaalmundo.es.tl
Meles meles
Censura
Meles meles

Posts : 5122
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyFri 07 Jul 2023, 10:50

Don't worry I won't mention it to anyone ... Smile

I did wonder who the author was ... because of the slightly unusual word tems and the fact that it was thought necessary to clarify that Thames is pronounced like that, I thought the author might not be British. However I now see he's about as British as you could get: lives near Colchester (as the Roman city of Camulodunum this was the province's first capital before London), read English Literature at Cambridge University, writes for major UK newspapers and was Secretary-General of the Arts Council of Great Britain ... so I reckon he knows his stuff. The book looks to be just my sort of thing although I think I'll read it in English rather than the excellent Spanish translation if that's OK.
Back to top Go down
ComicMonster
Consulatus
ComicMonster

Posts : 197
Join date : 2017-10-24

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyFri 07 Jul 2023, 10:59

Thanks for the compliment! Yes, I tend to think you'll be better off reading it in English… (I find not the rejoiced Emoji I need, but believe me, you painted a great smile in my face…). Always a pleasure.
Back to top Go down
https://vueltaalmundo.es.tl
Caro
Censura
Caro

Posts : 1522
Join date : 2012-01-09

British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems EmptyTue 11 Jul 2023, 02:25

Nothing to do with the topic but there was a mention of Alnwick earlier. We visited that town in 2009, and I wrote, "Another day we went to Barters Books shop in Alnwick (which we discovered later was pronounced Annick) – it was massive, with over half a million books.  We only bought about 6.  Alnwick had very attractive and interesting gardens with labyrinths of bamboo, and a beautiful entrance feature of steps in a sort of amphitheatre style; it was usually a water feature but that wasn’t operating in the winter." My husband wrote elsewhere the bookstore was Carolyn's heaven. 
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




British Tems Empty
PostSubject: Re: British Tems   British Tems Empty

Back to top Go down
 

British Tems

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

 Similar topics

-
» British holidays
» British internment camps WW2
» British Nazi sympathisers
» Succession to the British throne ... and what might have been
» (Virtual) British Library

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Res Historica History Forum :: The history of people ... :: War and Conflict-