PS One of the posts after the Telegraph article is rather interesting:

In the study, there were 19 father/son nodes at which the paternal line could have been broken. Two of these, in the history of the Beaufort/Somerset family (who provided the present-day samples), are known illegitimate births, later legitimised. Another, in Richard III's own ancestry, was a case in which a father (Edmund of Langley, fourth son of Edward III) failed to leave land in his will to his son (Richard of Conisburgh, Richard III and Edward IV's paternal grandfather), whose mother was rumoured to have had a long-term affair with another man.

"Then there is the fact his DNA codes are for blond hair and blue eyes, when we know Richard almost certainly had black hair and brown eyes."

As far as I know, there is no contemporary portrait, and one early portrait shows grey-blue eyes. Further, DNA "codes" for eye colour are simply predictions. The genetic basis for eye colour is very complex.


Will try to find out more about this Richard of Conisburgh - and his mother.


Are the poster's comments about DNA "codes" for eye colour accurate?

Selwood's article is very helpful. If enough Torygraph readers can visualise the poor nun as a blonde and blue-eyed young thing then maybe it will trigger enough paternal / matronly / paedophile / Aryan feelings of concern for the gal that a groundswell of public protest at her present treatment will be generated. Who knows, maybe even a return to the horse trough theory (always my own favourite) might even be possible?

Since they have invested so much already in the reburial I suggest they go ahead with it all. Just be sure to put the right name on the gravestone or, in the absence of that a suitable alternative, I suggest "Sister X" (with an accompanying reconstruction of her head as a younger Gwyneth Paltrow or similar). That should pique the interest and keep the tourists coming.

The Daily Telegraph article is a bit simplistic but it does clearly state the main areas of doubt and uncertainty. But one point that was interesting and that I hadn't seen mentioned before was:

"Richard was a war veteran – but the bones show no healed wounds."

Are there any contemporary reports of Richard having sustained significant injuries prior to Bosworth?

I wondered about that too, MM. I wish Minette were still around - she would possibly know. But flesh wounds would heal without trace presumably?

I know the article was "simplistic", but all this DNA stuff is terribly confusing for those of us who have no science - especially confusing when all the "experts" seem unable to agree. I am very interested in the Richard of Conisburgh (Richard's grandfather) story though. According to Wiki:


Richard was two years younger than his brother, Edward, and according to G.L. Harriss, since he received no lands from his father, Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York, and was not mentioned in either his father's or his brother's wills, he may have been the child of an illicit liaison between his mother and John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter.

So who is this John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter then - a half-brother of Richard II?! Trouble is most of the aristocracy of England are related, one way or another.

I assume you're listening to Radio Leicester, Temp?  I'm enjoying the fashion report on at the minute........

Oooh, now it's on the BBC news channel.

Lord, they're talking some tripe - "defining moment in history, changing our view of the past" Er, how?

"Richard was a war veteran – but the bones show no healed wounds."

Temperance wrote:

But flesh wounds would heal without trace presumably?

I'm no expert but I don't think that is necessarily so ... I am pretty sure that infection can leave the underlying bone eroded, while severe contusions (bruising) can leave the bone thickened, even when the bone itself hasn't been broken and rehealed. But as I say I really do not know.

If memory serves, infection would have to be severe and chronic to leave osteological evidence and it would be near impossible to identify whether that infection arose in a battle, as opposed to accidental, injury.

Loved Philippa's hat.

The ceremony outside the University of Leicester was a bit embarrassing - quite obvious the Earl Marshal hadn't been consulted. (You have to admit these toffs do know how to do things properly.)

I thought the poetry readings and that cushion thing for the white roses were dreadful.

Hope things improve as the week's events unfold.

I know it's still got to go into a lead-lined casket .... but the coffin just looks like a cheap plywood packing case ... and not even a bit of a fancy tablecloth to cover up the plain butt-joint ends.

Even my pussy-cat's shoebox was wrapped in a nice bit of cloth when I buried her!

MM wrote:

...not even a bit of a fancy tablecloth to cover up the plane butt-joint ends.

Fitting however, given the poor nun got one in the butt-joint during her mugging. I am amazed at their sensitivity towards Sister Gwyneth, It's the least she deserves.

MM wrote:

Even my pussy-cat's shoebox was wrapped in a nice bit of cloth when I buried her!

You got round to burying her then, MM? I thought she was still in the freezer?

It was a nice bit of English oak, apparently - I quite like plain coffins. But that trestle table they put the coffin on was appalling - like the one we had for the cakes at our village's Jubilee Party.

And the speeches! Not so much a funeral - more a University of Leicester Open Day for hopeful 6th Formers.

Oh God, this is awful.

(You have to admit these toffs do know how to do things properly.)

Oh, be fair, the commentator on Radio Leicester did say there weren't many anoraks or trainers amongst the invited guests.

I can't get any of the Channel 4 or the BBC's News 24 here ... (and Tele-France  aren't interested) ... but all your comments, have got me giggling.
 

Here you are MM. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/king-richard-iii-reburial-live-5379601

Enjoy!

BBC news are interviewing spectators and asking them why they are there - they can't explain beyond 'It's a once in a lifetime event'. He's now being dragged round various villages, heaven knows what that's about, but I can't wait for the medieval re-enactors getting geared up at Bosworth,

                                                                                                         

Get your R III theme park tickets here.

Who on earth is this, camped out with his mates in a lay-by on the A42?

Oh dear. Thankyou ferval for that, but .... oh dear.

... electric atmosphere... handbell ringers ... a community choir ... schoolchildren reading poems, .... scattering white rose petals along the route .... morris dancers ... a beer tent ... motorists bemused and annoyed as their route is blocked ... cries of "God save King Richard" ... a re-enactment group ...

You really couldn't make it up .... All the fun o' the fair!

Uncle Abanazar? Appropriate or what?

Damn, damn, damn, I have to go out now. Never mind, there's 3 hours on C4 this evening.

It's all very English   - any excuse for a p*ss-up in the park.

It's turning into a sort of medieval Glastonbury.

All harmless fun, unless there's a punch-up later between the Yorkists and the other lot. Could happen.

I'm trying to find a picture of Philippa's big, black hat. She looked very nice actually.

Nonsense, she badly needs a hair cut.

                                                                             


What have I missed? Any teeth gnashing and garment rending yet? When are the fireworks?

Meles meles wrote:

I can't get any of the Channel 4 or the BBC's News 24 here ... (and Tele-France  aren't interested) ... but all your comments, have got me giggling.
 

MM, UK telly is on line here http://www.filmon.com/group/uk-live-tv . I watch some shows myself at times.

Have a giggle at this one, Jon Snow on C4, "At the time of Richard III, they didn't know India even existed."

Both Philippa's are going to be on later, MM - hurry up with the wine!

ferval wrote:

 
Nonsense, she badly needs a hair cut.  

Now ferval, her ends are a bit split and straggly - it would have been better put up - but the hat is rather nice. Very Camilla-ish and suitable.

How's it all going? I've been out for the afternoon.

Islanddawn wrote:

MM, UK telly is on line here http://www.filmon.com/group/uk-live-tv . I watch some shows myself at times.

Thanks for the suggestion ID but I cannot watch anything streamed via internet as my connection is too slow.

I would love to be like the rest of the western world and would happily pay, but here where I am in France it just isn't possible. There's no cable connection (the cables run to the village just 1km away but we are deemed to be 'too far' from the last point), and so we in the valley (that's about 12 houses) all have to rely on individual satellite contracts (very expensive and still faible ... there is frequently no connection possible "because of the weather conditions"). But at least we now seem to have a better fixed-line telephone service ... up until just five years ago we only had the phones working on average for about three weeks in ever month! But there's still no mobile phone coverage ... which is why I have no mobile phone, 'cos it just don't work here.

People in India, Afganistan, Chad, Mali, Nepal ... they all have mobiles but I, resident in mainland France do not, because there is absolutely no coverage here,... and also no internet, no terrestrial TV, and the phones only work occasionally!

The hat is nice, I have a very similar one in navy.

Narky Starkey's on later, did you see him last night? I loved the actor playing Buckingham, straight from central casting's specially grotesque villains catalogue.

Going to watch it tonight, ferv.

It's getting better now - we're in the Cathedral and the Choir are singing beautifully.

All those white roses thrown at the coffin - who'd have thought it?

Not even wifi MM?

No, not even wifi ... the local council cannot pay for it because they've got no money, and though I have personally voted for it,  the rest of the village hasn't! So there we are - no connection here. I offer wifi to my guests (it covers all the house and immediate grounds) but that is running off the house satelite connection only (and I pay for that) and so it is equally subject to "disturbances". That said the cable connection to the village ain't superb either... I had the secretary to the mayor call by, twice, in the weeks before Christmas ... just to use my internet connection to pick up some emails, because the village cable connection - that's the internet, telephones, and TV - was completely kaputt for a week (to use Normanhurst's mot du jour). So sometimes there are some advantages in having one's own independent system.

"Reconstructionist biographies where saints can become villains and villains saints"

Is the cardinal having a dig at Hillary?

I'm probably a bit behind all the events but I've just read on BBC online news that, as part of the proceedings , "a company of re-enactors in Tudor livery",  have led the procession. Well I'm sure he appreciated the snub!

Pity the poll didn't allow for my view - probably, but not certainly enough to justify all the hoo-ha.

ferval wrote:

"Reconstructionist biographies where saints can become villains and villains saints"

Is the cardinal having a dig at Hillary?

Yes, a deliciously sly and malicious dig on behalf of St. Thomas from His Eminence!

Wasn't David Starkey obnoxious last night? He was really rude to the three ladies - I even felt sorry for Philippa Gregory. But they responded to the miserable, cantankerous old so-and-so with great dignity, I thought. I was worried Philippa Langley - "the Loon", as the good Doctor so gallantly called her - might burst into tears, but no, she floored him with all that stuff about the Mortimer claim and Henry IV. Good on yer, our Pippa!

PS I think her hat was navy, not black as I originally posted. An important detail. So you have a big, navy hat identical to Philippa Langley's, ferval - fancy that!

Oh Temp, he is appalling, he even managed to have me wanting to rise up in the twin P's defence. Not just lacking in the manners department though: his response to "What evidence do you have for RIII's kiddie throttling", "He's have been mad not to" doesn't exactly stand as evidence. In the previous doc, he did all the things that he condemns novelists for and launched into a highly subjective interpretation of Dicky's personality and character that seemed quite as florid and emotionally driven as any of his derided lady writers at her worst. Thank goodness for Helen Castor's calm and balanced contributions.

To be fair though, this pantomime has gone to many heads. Did you hear the heid bummer from the cathedral on 'Today' this morning?  When asked, referring to the probability of Richard's crimes, "Has he been forgiven?", he replied, "Of course, as we all shall be". Hmmm, there might be a wee theological issue there. But since there is now a 21st century martyrium in a C of E cathedral, anything goes.

And all this mystical 'King of England" stuff is getting right up my republican nose.

I never watched any of it.

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter on Channel 4 on Saturday. Lasted until the first commercial break, then over to Match of the Day, before my head exploded.

Triceratops wrote:

I never watched any of it.

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter on Channel 4 on Saturday. Lasted until the first commercial break, then over to Match of the Day, before my head exploded.

Very wise, Trike!

Temp ... I thought when you logged off prompt at 9 o'clock this morning that you'd scuttled off to Leicester. I was looking forward to the reports of the Res His reporter on the ground. But obviously not.

And further to all the dsicussion of hats ... in the event did His Eminence the cardinal wear a huge scarlet wide-brimmed hat? I really think he should have done ... if only to keep up with all the re-enactment revels. And I hope he gave his address in medieval latin too, if only to bamboozle the anorak-and-trainers part of the congregation.

I was going to go for the whole week, MM, but decided against it. Too many crowds milling around, and I didn't win an invite to the service last night.

I'll go later this year when all the fuss has died down.

The Cardinal was not sporting his really big hat last night: he wore a dinky little skull cap to match his red robe. He looked very flamboyant beside the C of E lot in their tasteful post-Reformation gear. He was Versace to their Ralph Lauren.

But I expect Justin will wear his enormous mitre on Thursday. Hope so.

No medieval Latin, more's the pity. I do enjoy a bit of proper ritual. No wonder our Vicar despairs of me.

I like this from the Merchant of Venice soundtrack:



EDIT: Oh, it's appeared now!

Haven't a clue what they're singing, apart from "Dominus vobiscum", but what the heck...

Pook has written some powerful stuff - this was used in "Eyes Wide Shut".



I love the Romanian singing backwards.

Yes, her setting of these words from the end of Paradise Lost is superb. Will try and find the track:


The world was all before them, where to choose
Their place of rest, and Providence their guide:
They hand in hand with wand'ring steps and slow
Through Eden took their solitary way.


EDIT:

Ooops!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2661573/Revealed-King-Richard-III-planned-buried-York-not-Leicester-according-extraordinary-529-year-old-letter.html?

Well, if they ever find the body of Richard III then that's where it should go, so.

ferval wrote:

Narky Starkey's on later, did you see him last night? I loved the actor playing Buckingham, straight from central casting's specially grotesque villains catalogue.

I've just watched the Saturday evening programme, ferval. I have to admit I rather enjoyed it - thought it was all very fair. Some interesting contributors, especially the American lawyer, Bertram Fields. I remember reading his Royal Blood ages ago - thought it was excellent.

The acting was hammy though. Buckingham was a terrific villain, wasn't he - a real ruffian of the Duke of Norfolk ilk. The actor playing Richard looked suitably anguished and haunted all the time, presumably because he knew his hair looked such a greasy mess - he seemed to be having one bad hair day after another, poor lad. His manic laugh just before he had Hastings hauled off for the chop was brilliant.

Starkey was at his dramatic best, but, as you say, he offered precious little evidence for his anti-Richard stance. I laughed at his comment regarding his "discovery" that Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York's attendance at the Tyrrell trial in 1502 offered the "proof" that Richard had indeed ordered the killing of the PITT. His concluding comment that this was evidence "that something was going on!" was unbelievable. "Something was going on" - honestly! You wouldn't let a fifteen-year-old GCSE candidate get away with that. And there he was 24 hours later sneering at all and sundry.

No mention of Margaret Beaufort's wheeling and dealing with Elizabeth Woodville in the programme though, which was rather surprising.

I watched recordings last night. Oh dear! All that talk about symbols and prayer - with prayers for all the fallen at Bosworth - I wonder what silent words followed that injunction? And so it went on..... and whoever dreamed up a Brownie putting a prop crown on the box? To make up  for the one he dropped? And wasn't there some gabble last year about the site of Bosworth not where it is pegged out with flag post and all? 

Will a Dimbleby in hushed tones present the final laying to rest? And why did Starkey say that the recovered bones of children found in the Tower were beyond recovery? I thought they were in an urn in Westminster and the church had said  they may not be examined. I am soooooo out of touch with all this stuff. And the interviewed knight in rust-proof cans - a Tudor mock up - he sounded American - big mistake there. All big Brtish filmed events have to have an American somewhere, yes - but on a motor bike, surely? I think I'll go to the bar before Temps gets in a tiz  with me.......mouthwash, anyone?

It could have been worse - a Cub going "Dib-dib-dob-dob" over the coffin.

Have I spelt that correctly? (Dib-dib etc. I mean, not coffin.)

DYB - do your best - well I guess he did that - not sure what dob dob dob is - do cubs say that?

I thought the staged enactments of variable scenarios re murder of the boys was trying to use WH acting/lighting/production methods and failing miserably; we can look forward to futher dreadful copies, I think. Heavy sigh. As for the depiction of R111 with a forlorn expression of inner turmoil overlaid with a weakness of resolution, his unwashed hair and a hint of is having a bipolar disorder, it's a wonder he could get on a horse let alone take it into battle. No surprise then  he lost his reins/ reign and crown.

And how does DNA show greasy hair? It shows he was blonde with blue eyes - well they said that it did.

It's that pesky Nun again. She was the one who had nasty, greasy hair. Obviously she wasn't worth it.

PS Dob Dob - Did Our Best?

Lord, it's the Res Hiss motto.

Grand Howl at the end of cubs in my time -
Chosen cub (usually Akela's favourite Sixer AKA her son)
Calls "DYB DYB DYB"*
All others , having previously wiped shoes on socks, noses on sleeves etc (no coincidence cubs wore green ganseys) in preparation for the most important part of the whole evening (calling at Salt's Fish and Chip Saloon for a 3d cone and a frozen jubbly - a tanner well spent even if you had to claim you had "lost" your subs on the way to the meeting)
"We'll DOB DOB DOB"

As previously - Do Your Best and Do Our Best.

*Usually chosen cub makes a horlicks of it, and actually calls out "We'll DYB DYB DYB".