Let's draim her Sterling down
Ah, Alistair Darling's favourite dance. I do like the reel of the 51st though. Pity there isn't a 51st any more.
Or a 52nd, come to that.
I've just had a wee lassie from Labour for No at the door and sent her away after a tirade about the failings of Scottish Labour. She didn't argue, I suspect she's heard it rather a lot.

Seriously though I just hope that whatever the result of the referendum there is no long lasting damage to Scotland because of bitterness among the various supporters who have been split by this issue even within families. 

Although with Scottish heritage on both sides, I do not have a dog in this fight as my ancestors moved to work in the mills of Sunderland in the 1800s and intermarried with English and Welsh ladies. 

Passions seem to be running so high that you worry about the side that will lose and the anger they will feel - whichever way it goes.

Alluding to somebody having an idea that Scotland was a county, an American pop star visiting these shores in the 1960s gave an interview where he stated that his favourite part of England was Wales.  To be fair I don't know the geography of the United States inside out and back to front and Washington the state and Washington DC always used to throw me - and don't get me started on Cornwall to the west of Temperance's neck of the woods and the French La Cournouaille.

Triceratops wrote:

In it to Win It, Saturday 13th September:

Dale Winton " In which English county is the town of Penzance?"

Contestant "Scotland"

The contestant in question was a real thicko anyway, he knew absolutely nothing about anything.

Time for this;

No, no, no, not that travesty please. it might sound OK in its original setting, at a German highland games, but it just exemplifies the whole misty island, towering mountain, lonely sheiling garbage that should stay on a shortbread tin or a Visit Scotland ad. It's probably significant that it was Chris Patten's favourite so maybe he'll be the next governor general after a No vote. The lyrics that are sometimes added are worse, just risible doggerel.

I do like this though, http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/independent-scotland-to-blame-cats-2013020658754

Chris Patten being sent somewhere - even Scotland? Dear God this election is more serious than I realised. Pass the oat cakes and haggis 'gravy' before import duty makes them unobtainable.

Is this better? Ferv;

So ferval, it looks like you won't be needing a new passport after all. Although I do wonder how much of the vote was against Salmond himself, rather than the wish to stay? He certainly didn't do his campaign any favours and I think many weren't fooled with promises he hadn't a hope in hell of keeping?

A wake up call for the Tories though.

The Guardian article I read said whichever way the vote went, Alex Salmond had won, and had probably got what he wanted all along - more devolution to Scotland.  I'm a bit sorry the vote went for No, as it would have been very interesting to see what happened next.  A story with an unknown ending is always more entertaining than one where you know what has happened.

ID wrote:

A wake up call for the Tories though.

More a wake-up call for the Scottish Labour Party: the Tories have never been big over the border. And I rather think Cameron is very pleased - and not just at the "No" vote. As I have previously said, he has destroyed the Lib Dems in England and now, with all this morning's talk of devolution for the English - an "English" Parliament ("English votes for English laws") - he's gunning for the Labour Party: he'll ensure that in the future the Scottish Labour MPs have no power at Westminster to vote  on the really important things. How many votes is that - about 41? Not an insignificant number. Cameron's no fool, whatever people think.

Cameron studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) at Brasenose College, Oxford, gaining a first-class honours degree in 1988. He was described by his tutor, Professor Vernon Bogdanor, as "one of the ablest" students he has ever taught.

I'm glad there was no nastiness or violence last night and I thought Salmond accepted defeat graciously. Brilliant victory for democracy and, sentimental old fool that I am, I am so glad we are still together as one nation.

Here's something to make ID laugh - they played "I vow to thee my country" on Radio 2 a bit ago and it made me cry.

PS My country - Great Britain, not England.

Ah, "I vow to thee my country" ... I personally think that should be the national anthem.
So please, no more of that quasi-religious gumpf that is 'Jerusalem', neither the aggressively triumphant 'Land of Hope and Glory'.

Dave's done it for Labour as well, even if they were to be in government they could never pass any radical legislation (not that they show much sign of wanting to) without Scottish and Welsh MPs and it looks like those will be debarred from voting on English matters.

As for us, well, I think we can await the arrival of Butcher Cameron and Marshal Osborne. More devolution? Power devolved is power retained so no change there.

B*gger it, I'm off to join the revolution in Catalonia, just call me La Passionara.

Just don't stir up the Southern Catalans too much Ferval ... many here in so-called North Catalonia (ie the bit in France) are watching events across the border with great interest and as much hope as fear. But should Catalunya/Catalonia ever get independence, I'm not sure that the richest region of Spain would actually want to be shackled to one of the poorest in France, just to re-create Greater Catalunya.

But above all ... have a good holiday, ferv.

I suspect this will be back on the front boiling ring by late 2017. When England votes to leave the EU and Scotland votes to stay in - and virtually no "additional powers" have been revolved, the air circulating device will be impinged on by the raw material for the anaerobic digester.

Do you really think you'll get a ref on the EU Gil? I reckon that'll happen when hell freezes over, no government will be game to hand that decision to the people because they know what the result will be. And if you think you are in a mess now, just wait until all those companies who are based in the UK because it is a EU member pack up and leave. The gov won't want that at all and will side with the business interests, always.

I think Davieboy has painted himself into a corner on that - anything to fend off the Farragistas!

Of course, whatever tiny bits of junk Junker cares to throw him will enable him to support continued membership - and it will probably be a non-binding consultative referendum.

Meles meles wrote:

Just don't stir up the Southern Catalans too much Ferval ... many here in so-called North Catalonia (ie the bit in France) are watching events across the border with great interest and as much hope as fear. But should Catalunya/Catalonia ever get independence, I'm not sure that the richest region of Spain would actually want to be shackled to one of the poorest in France, just to re-create Greater Catalunya.

But above all ... have a good holiday, ferv.

Meles meles,

as I know that you learned a lot about Belgium by your late Belgian friend...I will point my message to you, but even has the other contributors aren't so knowledgeable it is nevertheless also directed to them...

Yes, we haven't yet spoken of the "Flemish question" in Belgium...last century, in fact already starting from mid 19th century, there was a growing awareness of the North of the unitarian Belgium of the Flemish dialect speaking population of their discrimination by the French speaking elite and schools. Although to be precise the Flemings were first those from East and West Flanders, the term Flemings became during recent history also coined to those from Brabant and during the French occupation to those from Limburg formerly belonging to the prince-bishopric of Liège...the Flemings looked more and more for the "right" language to the Dutch official language as that language was more exempt from dialect words...btw to have no misunderstandings
all the Flemish dialects are dialects of the Dutch language...

Gradually this linguistic conflict became also a social one...During WWI some Flemish leaders used the cooperation with the Germans to embody more rights as a Dutch language university...and after the war you had the backlash...the same story in WWII and after...

But during the last halve of the former century the rights of the North of Belgium, in the meantime called Flanders, became more and more enshrined in the Belgian constitution to such a degree that Flanders as a "region" and as a "community" has a lot of independency as to conduct its own priorities...for me that's quite enough as in a nation-state there is also something as solidarity...

And as I suppose like in Scotland and Catalunia, some Flemings want more...in the last 150 years they have "constructed" a national history completely with all the known "attributes"...

Unbelievable (but perhaps its a "normal" phenomena?) some start to speak about "genetic" markers of the Flemish population and how they are better of their Southern French speaking brothers...but in fact, and some hard line Flemings don't like that when I mention that it was due to the industry moving to the Belgian ports and the capital and know how injections of the Americans immediately after WWII who made the Flanders region rich in comparison with the "old" industry of Wallonia...

And yes if you look at the "region" of Northern Italy and Catalunia and yes perhaps Scotland too, its all the same story...? If Flanders can't coop with Walllonia to support each one mutually, how do you want that an EEC can bundle up the neccesary efforts for the good of the whole community...? And who can say that cooperation at the end will not be advantageous for both...?
But I suppose as there would be a Flemish referendum, the Flemings are that realistic that it would be a 70% "no" vote...

Kind regards from your Belgian friend, Paul.

Meles meles, are you in the Southern Pyrenees?  I've been (some years back) to the northern [French bit of] the Pyrenees and that was in the Pays Basque so if you are in Catalunia....or are the boundaries between Pays Basque and Catalunia blurred?

PR, I didn't know about the industry migrating to the Flemish rather than the Wallonian part of Belgium. Sorry to display my ignorance but in which part of Belgium is Brussels situated?  Many moons ago, when I was learning "European history" which would more aptly be called "a tiny fragment of European history" we were told that any war against the Dutch would be a popular war in England.  This likely co-incided with the time that engineers from the Netherlands had been employed to drain (to some extent) the East Anglian fenlands, so the Dutch in England would probably have been relatively well off, and therefore possibly objects of envy.  The history teacher said that one contributory factor to one war with the Dutch was the fact that the Dutch would not share a particular method of kippering herrings (I didn't know there was more than one way).

A late friend of mine was married to a Christian Palestinian who pre-deceased her.  She said that when he was growing up the (then) inhabitants of Palestine got along well for the most part.  In fact her husband's first girlfriend had been Jewish.  Of course when international politicians started sticking their collective beak in everything went pear-shaped.

AIUI Brussels/Bruxelles/Brussel is the Capital Territory, and a seperate region, geographically it is in Flanders, though not by much, and is classed as bilingual. In my experience, that is slightly misleading - different areas are largely monoglot French or Flemish speaking.

Gil and Lir,

I started a reply this evening to Lir about her three questions and searched for some articles on the internet about the shift of the industrial centre from Wallonia to Flanders after WWII. But so interested in the topic that I read nearly four books on the Belgian economy after WWII...and in the meantime lost my message that I already started for the lady in retirement...tomorrow more about those books...

Kind regards and with esteem to you both,

Paul

So many rooms, so many elephants.

The recent tartan-clad elephant has now of course revealed himself completely, and as usual once the image is no longer being filtered through political smoked glass and mirrors we can now see not just his breed but his actual face. It turns out of course that he was never actually Scottish all along. In fact he wasn't even British. He's an elephant of the genus "Proboscidea Vulgaris voltus" (as plain as the nose on your face) and species "Conprimere Mutum" (Keep them voiceless), a breed not peculiar to Britain at all but which our Scottish friends have at least had the temerity, good fortune and good manners to temporarily reveal to us all before he scuttles back into the corner of our collective living room not to be seen again for a considerable time, I imagine.

I'll keep an eye however on the butter in the fridge ...

Absolutely.

The dismal truth seems to be dawning at last on the Labour Party: "Oh, heck" is the theme for this week. How many English Labour MPs are there?

As I said, Cameron is no fool. But how he deals with the trumpeting UKIP Heffalump remains to be seen.


He tried counting Heffalumps [but] every Heffalump that he counted was making straight for a pot of Pooh's honey ... [and] when the five hundred and eighty-seventh Heffalump was licking its jaws, and saying to itself, 'Very good honey this, I don't know when I've tasted better', Pooh could bear it no longer."

PS Elephants don't really scuttle, nordmann! Lumber is too clichéd and not appropriate here - can't think of a good verb for the dangerous beast.

Political elephants scuttle. Political everythings scuttle.

OK - good point - taken!

nordmann wrote:

Political elephants scuttle. Political everythings scuttle.

With a side order of smarm and extra hypocrisy, served in a solid block of wax*
(yes I know that the etymology of "sincere" as "without wax" is erroneous, but what the hell ....)

LadyinRetirement wrote:

PR, I didn't know about the industry migrating to the Flemish rather than the Wallonian part of Belgium. Sorry to display my ignorance but in which part of Belgium is Brussels situated?  Many moons ago, when I was learning "European history" which would more aptly be called "a tiny fragment of European history" we were told that any war against the Dutch would be a popular war in England.  This likely co-incided with the time that engineers from the Netherlands had been employed to drain (to some extent) the East Anglian fenlands, so the Dutch in England would probably have been relatively well off, and therefore possibly objects of envy.  The history teacher said that one contributory factor to one war with the Dutch was the fact that the Dutch would not share a particular method of kippering herrings (I didn't know there was more than one way).

A late friend of mine was married to a Christian Palestinian who pre-deceased her.  She said that when he was growing up the (then) inhabitants of Palestine got along well for the most part.  In fact her husband's first girlfriend had been Jewish.  Of course when international politicians started sticking their collective beak in everything went pear-shaped.

 Lady in retirement,

if I "analysed" well your message there are three questions...

" in which part of Belgium is Brussels situated?"

Belgium is a bit complicated but this wiki is very good and says it all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communities,_regions_and_language_areas_of_Belgium

"I didn't know about the industry migrating to the Flemish rather than the Wallonian part of Belgium."


I knew it already some years and had it confirmed many times, but nevertheless pushed by your curiosity I did some further research on English language sites and got stuck for the whole evening reading about the economics of Belgium...
http://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/econ/documents/1996_Cambridge_University_Press.pdf

Read on page 187 end of third paragraph:
Foreign investment was dispropotional concentrated in Flanders and helped output and income in the hitherto impoverished north of the country to surpass those in the older industrial of Wallonia (Van Rompuy 1978, Vandersmissen 1975)
http://goo.gl/z9iXjS
Read page 35 first paragraph...
And:
http://goo.gl/PeDzgn
Read Brussels from page 95 on...

And:
http://goo.gl/aoG9Dl
Read from page 116 on...

And the third question...
"A late friend of mine was married to a Christian Palestinian who pre-deceased her.  She said that when he was growing up the (then) inhabitants of Palestine got along well for the most part.  In fact her husband's first girlfriend had been Jewish.  Of course when international politicians started sticking their collective beak in everything went pear-shaped."

LIR it is many times appearance for the foreigner and people are always trying to accomodate with a situation...
When I was in Israel, visiting on holidays the whole country (1979?)...went to the South...many Israëli went to Gaza for tooth care while there it was much cheaper, as also many other services...but visiting a kibutz in the Golan heigths it was quite another story with machine guns on the table...and I would forget...two weeks after we went to Israel there was at the Brussels airport at the special entrance for Israel where we were gone through a grenade attack from Palestinian sympatisants with one dead and several wounded...
And take now Yugoslavia...I went by car from Italy along the coast till Dubrovnik and to Cetinje near Albania in 1976? (the year  that Turkey invaded Cyprus)...in fact the nowadays Croatian coast....everywhere friendly people and all speaking about Yugoslavia...and in German...but under the surface you had still remembrance of the interethnic atrocities of WWII...and see with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the dead of Tito...

Kind regards and with esteem,

Paul.

PS: and thanks again to have pushed me to do an in depth economical and political study of the post war Belgium..

Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:

With a side order of smarm and extra hypocrisy, served in a solid block of wax*
(yes I know that the etymology of "sincere" as "without wax" is erroneous, but what the hell ....)

For other posters who, like me, were baffled by the above, this may be of interest:


Though an old wives' tale, the fanciful history of the phrase “without wax” is still an interesting one. “Without wax” stems from the Latin words “sin” (without) and “ceras” (wax) and was often said (albeit incorrectly) to be the origin of the English word “sincerity.” The story went that the phrase “without wax” first became widespread during the height of Roman and Greek artistry, when sculptures first became a popular artistic medium. When a sculpture had a flaw, artists would fill in the chip or crack with colored wax to match the marble. Wax was said to serve as cover-up, masking imperfections on what was most likely cheap pottery. An arguably perfect or quality piece of work was therefore “without wax.” Pottery pieces were even said to be stamped with the phrase “without wax” as proof of authenticity.

Unfortunately, there is not much (or really any) evidence that any of the above is true. The Oxford English Dictionary says the etymology of the English word “sincerity” actually derives from the Latin “sincerus,” meaning a clean or pure sound. The story of  “without wax” seems therefore to be no more than a folk tale.

Regardless of its historic accuracy, the message generated by “without wax” remains a good one. “Without wax” exemplifies the ideal: a perfection in honesty... the virtue in speaking true.



PS There was a little slot on BBC News Channel last night about the implications of Dave's "patriotic" urging of "English votes for English laws", especially as regards future voting on the huge issues such as the NHS and education. It's horrifying. Also, do Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland people really want to find themselves, not independent, but simply "without a voice" at Westminster? Talk about slicing your opponents in half and leaving them in the piazza - Cameron's brilliant at it.

This elephant is enormous and no one really seems to care - at least not down here. I get blank looks when I talk about it. Meanwhile we all just carry on happily watching Downton Abbey. Am I going mad or what? I think I may be.

The "voice" in Westminster rarely says anything that Westminster doesn't want it to say. Taking Northern Ireland as an example you could argue that the strongest expressed regional voice on that "statelet's" behalf was raised by the DUP when they accidentally found themselves holding the balance of power, at least in theory, on at least two occasions within recent electoral history. However you could equally argue that the "voice" was put to best use by their opponents within Northern Ireland, either through tactics such as Bernadette Devlin's publicity stunts when an MP for the "Unity" party, or put even to louder use by Sinn Fein MPs who didn't even take their seats, or who by Thatcher's edict couldn't speak publicly anyway even if they did.

However when it came to a voice influencing policy directed towards the administration of Northern Ireland the only one that has ever really mattered is that of the ruling "British" party, Conservative or Labour, neither of which would dare implement any policy regarding that region which might alienate their largely English-based electorate. When Paisley and McGuinness entered into administrative partnership in the devolved version of Stormont this was probably the one thing upon which they could both be in total agreement from the outset.

nordmann wrote:

However when it came to a voice influencing policy directed towards the administration of Northern Ireland the only one that has ever really mattered is that of the ruling "British" party, Conservative or Labour, neither of which would dare implement any policy regarding that region which might alienate their largely English-based electorate.

That may have been true in former times (like ten or so years ago?): these days the "largely English-based electorate" couldn't give a monkey's - about Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, or indeed anything else. We are sleep-walking happily toward disaster - either Tory or UKIP, or a nightmarish combination of both.

But I shall abstain from beans - a windy food, as we all know.

Is ferval back yet?

Yet the main parties will not dare risk losing chunks of their English vote and treat this avoidance with a priority - no matter how apathetic the electorate may be. Which when you think about it makes it even more imperative for Scottish, Welsh and Irish to take control of their own destinies to whatever degree they can or choose to attempt - anything is better than having one's fate decided by a shower of cynical creeps pandering to an even greater shower of apathetics, many of whom couldn't even place Aberdeen, Port Talbot or Enniskillen on a map of their so-called United Kingdom (and Northern Ireland). A lot of them would even struggle with Wakefield or Bath (cities with no football teams in the top flight league so therefore hardly likely to appear in a Sky Sport graphic).

I know where Bath is - great shops there (shame about all the beggars). And I sort of know where Eniskilen, Enniskilen Enniskillen is.

You don't like us English much, do you, nordmann? I don't think ferval does either. Not surprising, I suppose.

I really should stick to talking to MM about house martins - a far happier subject. Safer too.

On the contrary - there are places in England I like so much (including the people there) that if I don't visit them after a time I literally find myself pining. So there!

However as far as generalities can take such things I would have to say that when it comes to simple awareness of one's country beyond the more narrow deinitions of the concept then the Irish, Welsh and Scottish leave the English behind by miles (Irish miles at that!).

Yes, got back early this morning.

After all the hoo ha about 'Nationalist intimidation and abuse' I'd be interested to know how well this was covered in the south.  http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/george-square-trouble-the-night-our-readers-became-reporters.1411314286

However, it's not over, there's no way we're going to go and play nicely in our bedrooms, even if the grown ups do pat us on the head, give us a sweetie and tell us that we've had our fun and that now it's time to settle down. http://www.channel4.com/news/snp-membership-soars-politics-scotland-referendum

At least the Catalans were sympathetic. I'd guess more watched the results in Barcelona than in many English cities - and they cried too.

                               

Ach well, at least that little white rose of Scotland still has some thorns.........

Temperance wrote:

I know where Bath is - great shops there (shame about all the beggars). And I sort of know where Eniskilen, Enniskilen Enniskillen is.

You don't like us English much, do you, nordmann? I don't think ferval does either. Not surprising, I suppose.

I think you are confusing political criticism with that of ethnic Temp, to criticise governmental policies it not an attack on the people. There seemed to be a lot of confusion over this point during the Scottish referendum.

Personally I like the English a lot (we do have a great deal in common after all ) but honestly the current government leaves a lot to be desired. But then don't we all have a bunch of wankers in parliament? 

Re voter apathy. The only way to fix that and ensure that you have a government that represents all classes, not only those who may vote, is to make voting compulsory .

Islanddawn wrote:

Re voter apathy. The only way to fix that and ensure that you have a government that represents all classes, not only those who may vote, is to make voting compulsory .

I'd vote for that - if there were a "none of the above" box and the winner had to get 50% + 1 vote. Still far from ideal, as the nature of many constituencies means that if Labservative put up a monkey it would be (almost always is?) elected.

ferval wrote:

Yes, got back early this morning.

After all the hoo ha about 'Nationalist intimidation and abuse' I'd be interested to know how well this was covered in the south.  http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/george-square-trouble-the-night-our-readers-became-reporters.1411314286

However, it's not over, there's no way we're going to go and play nicely in our bedrooms, even if the grown ups do pat us on the head, give us a sweetie and tell us that we've had our fun and that now it's time to settle down. http://www.channel4.com/news/snp-membership-soars-politics-scotland-referendum

At least the Catalans were sympathetic. I'd guess more watched the results in Barcelona than in many English cities - and they cried too.

                               

Ach well, at least that little white rose of Scotland still has some thorns.........

Chin up ferval, from what I've read Scotland had most of Europe onside. Certainly the ref was followed with interest here as well, and even though you didn't quite get the result you may have wished for this time, it is still broadly seen as the beginning of the end for what is now Great Britain.

Cameron is behaving like an ass at the moment, I could give him a good clip around the ears.

For heavens sake Temp, surely you haven't been taken in by the 'Scots hate the English' crap? If you have, then there's no hope for any of us. Or would you prefer to be subjected to the We love you, please don't go patronising garbage that we have had to listen to - by an establishment mobilising the whole machinery of the state against a simple desire for more self determination by what has been a largely grass roots, community based, ad hoc movement. We've been repeatedly told we're too wee, too poor and too stupid to understand what we're doing by every organisation from the City through the Military and the entire media apart from the Herald. They were going to take away our pound, our banks (welcome to most of them!) our pensions, put up our prices, keep us out of Europe and make sure that the sun would never shine again if we didn't crawl back and be grateful for the beneficence of the UK in supporting the whinging jocks - but they still loved us. God knows why.

I'm ashamed of my generation who bottled it. The UK we have now is not the one they believed in in the post-war years, it's a sad, post-imperial society pretending to itself that it still is a great power but doesn't see who really runs the country and that they care for nothing except the the continuance of their own prosperity and devil take the hindmost. Well, now we're mad as hell and we're not going to put up with it.

Islanddawn and Gil,

"Re voter apathy. The only way to fix that and ensure that you have a government that represents all classes, not only those who may vote, is to make voting compulsory"

in Belgium it is compulsory...not "that" much better...although I find it a good system...one has to be pushed to "use" his/her democratic rights...to oblige the lazy ones at least to think about a vote even if they vote blanco...
From what I read from Temperance and Ferval it is a bit everywhere the same "environment", including Belgium...

Kind regards, Paul.

I agree Paul, compulsory voting is not perfect but no system ever is. And it is a sad state of affairs to have to force a population to exercise that very right that they take for granted, but more importantly it does force politicians and government to address the needs of the whole, not just the few.

The ones that moan the loudest about their situation are ever those who never bother to vote, but fail to see that by not voting that they are the perpertrators of their own misery.  Plus the government will hate the idea of compulsory voting, which would surely mean it to be a good thing.

ferval wrote:

For heavens sake Temp, surely you haven't been taken in by the 'Scots hate the English' crap? If you have, then there's no hope for any of us. Or would you prefer to be subjected to the We love you, please don't go patronising garbage that we have had to listen to - by an establishment mobilising the whole machinery of the state against a simple desire for more self determination by what has been a largely grass roots, community based, ad hoc movement. We've been repeatedly told we're too wee, too poor and too stupid to understand what we're doing by every organisation from the City through the Military and the entire media apart from the Herald. They were going to take away our pound, our banks (welcome to most of them!) our pensions, put up our prices, keep us out of Europe and make sure that the sun would never shine again if we didn't crawl back and be grateful for the beneficence of the UK in supporting the whinging jocks - but they still loved us. God knows why.

I'm ashamed of my generation who bottled it. The UK we have now is not the one they believed in in the post-war years, it's a sad, post-imperial society pretending to itself that it still is a great power but doesn't see who really runs the country and that they care for nothing except the the continuance of their own prosperity and devil take the hindmost. Well, now we're mad as hell and we're not going to put up with it.

An hour or two ago I had, like the hapless Harriet Smith (a Jane Austen character, not a lady politician), quite determined and really almost made up my mind to exit stage left. However, it would be churlish not to reply, and I do very much enjoy the discussions here. As ID advises, I should not take things personally.

I did not say that I think you Scots hate us English, ferval - obviously many of your nation do not; but - forgive me -  it has at times seemed that you and nordmann are none too fond of us. However, clearly I am wrong; nordmann assures us that, like the famous parrot, he pines - not for the fjords, but for our Septic Isle. I am heartened by these assurances.

I for one do live in a fantasy land still, I'm afraid - too much Vera Brittain and A. J. Cronin (my favourite Scot) when I was an idealistic teenager; I've never grown out of my youthful dreams of a fair and just society. Do we really give up on it - give in to the "cynical creeps" who seek to manipulate us all, not just your "wee" nation?

As regards marching folk to the polling station I think that's nonsense. What do you do if they insist on their democratic right not to vote? Send them to some chilly archipelago to think over their errors? We could threaten to intern them all on the Isle of Wight, I suppose, with no access to Sky Sport. People surely need to be educated properly so that they passionately want to vote. But here's Russell Brand who, sadly, speaks for so many of the younger generation these days.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/05/russell-brand-democratic-system-newsnight

Temperance wrote:

As regards marching folk to the polling station I think that's nonsense. What do you do if they insist on their democratic right not to vote? Send them to some chilly archipelago to think over their errors? We could threaten to intern them all on the Isle of Wight, I suppose, with no access to Sky Sport. People surely need to be educated properly so that they passionately want to vote. But here's Russell Brand who, sadly, speaks for so many of the younger generation these days.

Ah but Temp you are merely repeating government spin there which completely ignores the point, as it is designed to do of course.
Compulsory voting is not about forcing people to vote, it is actually about forcing government to act in the interests of all not just those select few. Which the government will never want in a million years, hence the nonsense put out about democratic rights blah blah.

Btw, those who choose not to vote merely lodge a blank voting slip. Thus everyone's needs are addressed, no need to be sending them to the Antipodes or other silly exaggerations.

It's not the English that we see as the problem, it's the UK as presently constituted and the political class which runs it, from wherever they they hail. In particular it's the city state of London which seems to exist in an entirely different universe.

If our wee referendum proved anything though, it's that democracy can work, the electorate will turn out in quite extraordinary numbers when people believe that their vote matters and can make a difference. Of course this energising effect may not last nor transfer to other elections where the issues are not as clear cut but I only hope that it may have helped re-establish the habit of voting.

SNP membership has gone from 25 thousand last week to *58 thousand ( at 12 noon) and is increasing rapidly. Perhaps a lot more people are now becoming actively engaged in politics.


*this now makes the SNP the third largest political party in the UK.

trike wrote:

this now makes the SNP the third largest political party in the UK

For how long though?

ID wrote:

 ...no need to be sending them to the Antipodes or other silly exaggerations.

I said archipelago, ID, not the Antipodes!

The Antipodes would be a silly suggestion!

PS Russell Brand is very hard on himself - "right twerp" indeed. He talks, sadly, a lot of sense. I'm a bit worried that I, a pensioner and GOF, agree with him on so much. So, where do we go from here? I hope someone knows.

No need to send them anywhere ... in Belgium, where as Paul says voting is mandatory, failure to vote just earns you a fine.

nordmann wrote:

trike wrote:

this now makes the SNP the third largest political party in the UK

For how long though?

 Still a bit to go to catch the Tories


Reading about the Belgian Revolution, if Talleyrand's proposals hade been accepted, there would never have been a Kingdom of Belgium;

Temperance wrote:

ID wrote:

 ...no need to be sending them to the Antipodes or other silly exaggerations.

I said archipelago, ID, not the Antipodes!

The Antipodes would be a silly suggestion!

PS Russell Brand is very hard on himself - "right twerp" indeed. He talks, sadly, a lot of sense. I'm a bit worried that I, a pensioner and GOF, agree with him on so much. So, where do we go from here? I hope someone knows.

Yes, that was the point. Antipodes is as silly a suggestion as archipelago as a place of banishment simply because someone may not want to vote. When, in fact, all that happens is that they either lodge a blank voting slip in protest or they don't turn up at all whereby a simple fine suffices.

Paul R, thanks for the information about the Belgian economy.  I shall have to study it more leisurely when I have a little more time.

Triceratops,

"Reading about the Belgian Revolution, if Talleyrand's proposals hade been accepted, there would never have been a Kingdom of Belgium;"




Yes Talleyrand was a clever guy, even with a defeated France he was able to cut the losses, perhaps because even in the mighty United Kingdom Napoleon and France had still its admirers, but on the balance of power on the continent the same UK was intrangisent...thus the borders of France had to be secured for the case another Napoleon emerged. And what was better than a bufferstate with all the big harbours in it, hence the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. And even with the Belgian revolution in 1830, although there was affinity for the French among the preliminary government, the UK dictated the Belgian bufferstate with no links to the French monarchy (period called in French history; "restauration" previous to the "second empire" of Napoleon III)...and it was the, "embarrassing" for the UK, Leopold of Saxon-Coburg-Gotha (embarrasing because he had, after the dead of his wife, the next queen, no role anymore overthere), who was pointed to for the role of Belgian king...Leopold had before passed over the proposition to be king of the new kingdom of Greece in 1830...

Yes those were the days of the great United Kingdom...and as many times I understand (at least I think so) what Temperance is alluding to. I remember also in another discussion that she said that we, among others me, had about many things such clear cut opinions without hesitation...in fact in my case is she right...but I am aware that even with my clear cut opinion there are a lot of obstacles, intouchables, impossibilities...but has that to hamper your in your eyes honest opinion?...

Gospel according to Paul.

Ethnicities, nations even individuals have to live in mutual understandement and in respect for each other for the "good" of the whole (and I know all the difficulties lies in the definition of what is "good"). And I for instance don't find it fair that one group has to do all the "work" for the community, while another group, being able to "work" subsist on the others' "work" (and I know all the difficulties lies in the definition of "work"). As an inhabitant of Belgium I know about the problematic, but that don't prevent me of being for the Belgian cooperation first, then the Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg) cooperation, then Benelux and its neighbours, France, Germany, UK, then Europe, then the North Atlantic, then that part of the world with "Western values", then the world...of course the discussion is then what the "Western values" are...
Ethnicities, nations... and we have not yet spoken of the dividing of sectarian religions including sectarian "a-religions"

Kind regards and with respect to all those who have read the message to the end...

Paul.

Paul : Britain would have been predisposed to favour anything which prevented the Scheldt estuary falling into the hands of any of the Great Powers of Europe, ic had been a settled part of policy since the time of Elizabeth I - that's where Parma's army was waiting to be collected by Medina Sidonia at the time of the First Armada, and Napoleon described it as "a pistol aimed at the heart of England". I invite you to consider Churchill's attempt in 1914 to use the Royal Marines and surplus Naval reserves (hastily converted into infantry) to hold Antwerp.
edited - I cor spell rite.