You can't impear someone who's already been impruned.

Does that mean you will run again?

And again and again.

Until they erect a statue to me in Australia. I'm impassioned down there so I'll probably be impomegranated.

So it may well be said by many an old fruit and immedlar in certain religious circles, "Then you are totally imdamed,son."

Priscilla wrote:

... in certain religious circles ...

Sorry, I thought we were talking fruit, not nuts.

Good grief! It has taken years to get an apology of any kind on this site. One of the benefits of religions, or so they say, is  hope when all hope seems lost.

Sorry, but the above was a sarcastic sorry. Blind faith is all well and good, but it shouldn't blind you to the presence of crucial commas. Especially in a limey's own lingo!

I had actually put your own reticence to apologise down to sour grapes, but at the risk of driving you even more bananas and eliciting yet another raspberry from a cherry-picker such as yourself, I hope you won't regard me as too prickly a pear if I admit that it is increasingly hard to give a fig about benefits perceived to be religious by an obvious damson in theological distress. In fact, as mangoes go, consider this man gone.

(rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb, recedes into distance)

I think the standard  and final reply to this kind of saladacious,  diminishing, fermentation - plus or minus a comma or two, is "Nuts."

Sorry, but as witty fruit-based retorts go (and please don't feel too squashed by this), that last one of yours was a bit of a lemon, and a rather ugli one at that. However let's not beat about the mulberry bush - why don't we make a date and we'll see if we can'taloupe make a pun star of you yet.

I thought we had finished all of this.... you crumbled away with rhubarb,....oh dear... move over Pavlova and send him the raspberries. No dear, not the tart as well.

PS... edit. raspberries come hereabouts in punnets.  This was a bit too Priscilla the Obscure, I suppose.

In Newcastle NUFC are apparently doing sterling work raising money and resources for the food bank in the West End.


 It's a pity they cannot do anything for  their team. (We Eastenders would appreciate it).

 Football is a religion in Newcastle among some folk.

Good point, brenogler. Religious devotion to football, or these days even to various social media platforms etc, allows adherents to then start specifying "benefits" accruing from such sources - while of course playing down all the other stuff that goes with the territory. It's actually a very handy modern insight into the same tendency as exhibited over the years among adherents of more traditionally recognised religions. Cognitive bias, I think it's called.

What a wonderful word paint job phrase is Cognitive Bias. ..... that one is likely to be influenced by the thinking of ones friends. That doesn't quite gel with  all aspects of all religious people...martyrs come to mind. Ingrained nationalistic prejudice, however, seems to me to be spot on Cognitive Bias as is attitude learned from parents. It's a lovely honey spread of a phrase.

That's not what the term "cognitive bias" means at all. It is the tendency to discount or not think about anything that does not conform to one's own biases - however they are formed - and to unconsciously put too much emphasis on anything that does.

Martyrs are a jumbled lot, ranging from the highly principled to the sheer stupid, even the so-called "religious" ones. However you are right to point them out as perfect candidates for possession of more than what is a healthy dollop of such bias in their cognition. Those for whom football is a religion are also more than familiar with this expression of commitment to the cause too. Taking one "for the team" is just as noble a tradition in that sect as well.

A new phrase to me - and not yet properly gelled in the text books yet, then. I took my understanding of it from an online source just now - and then I applied it here. Thus is the way of education these days. I stand in the shabby robes of the deplorable for using this as my source and am shamed by it. Nevertheless I quite like that interpretation..........really not a very exact  science is it?  Not when people put their own slant on it and serve it up to the gullible, like me?

Not applying yourself to semantic precision with the religious zeal of an etymologist is itself a very religious "take" on things, I reckon. In fact believing the first thing you're told, or incidentally find, that conforms to one's cognitive bias without any attempt to critically assess its worth may even be one of the most evident proofs of your religiosity - at least in some religions it would be.

I can empathise completely with this very human failing of course - after all, as a child I firmly believed Geoff Hurst's ball crossed the line too. I am older and wiser now - and so is Sir Geoff - so we both tend not to shout about it when among adherents of the German sect, out of respect and all that. In truth I've become an agnostic and have gone all philosophical about it. After all, when can a ball be said to have truly "crossed" a "line" anyway if the minutest portion vertically aligned with the metaphysically applied whitewash is enough to keep it "out". Those old balls had dangly laces, remember.

Anyway, we all know that someone moved the line - just not saying who.

Never mind the line. Who moved the Russian linesman? That's the real theological hub of the matter!

In Russia's version of the faith he's Azerbaijani, of course. A bit like the identity crisis at the heart of the original version of the same holy pig bladder worshipping faith - should Woolwich Nazarenes really have a home ground next door to Nazareth Hotspur's pitch? And when will the Bethlehem Dons finally reveal the full story behind their dubious origin? Should the Red Devils be cast out for being so obnoxious? (Ok, we know the answer to that one actually). Did Pontie "wash 'em 'ard" Pilate really take a bung from the Pharisees Athletic agent when he was manager of Inter Roma FC? What calibre of centre forward (one step back) does thirty pieces of silver get you these days? Who threw the infamous Gethsemane fixture? Even Geoff Hurst, that unsurpassed master of metaphysical balls, struggles with these questions.

Oh come on, we all know who saves the Queen's team from time to time.... not only is this asked for by an entire nation but as a reminder the faithful gathered in many an arena ask for a divine  abiding with each of them even if it is getting dark. Further more, keeping a eye on the ball and impartiality among comparative denominations an assisted hand ball goal keeps a balance of fair divine play.

Yes, but is gibberish really a benefit of religion?

Meanwhile back in English - let's not forget the great statues that true religion has inspired. Not only saints at whose feet one can worship but whose feet one can actually worship.

Specially for brenogler - one of the "Wor"s.

Wor Jackie was a bit before my time, Nordmann. Those were the stairs I used to use till about ten years ago.


 I think there is some confusion between cognitive bias and confirmation bias.  I think the latter is just one example of the former. (??).

Juventus are good. Newcastle play in the same stripes so they must be good too. That's cognitive bias.

The Pig & Whistle pub team knocked Tottenham Hotspur out of the FA Cup in 1896. Newcastle scraped to a 1-0 win over the Pig & Whistle pub team this year (Bruce was obviously sick that day). That makes Newcastle better than Spurs. That's confirmation bias.

Both slightly delusional in essence. But then we're talking about supporting Newcastle, so that's actually a plus.

Apologies for the rubbish layout of my posts.  My pooter died and I'm trying to get used to a laptop as opposed to desk top.

Fixed. Can't say the same for Sports Direct United alas.

nordmann wrote:

Juventus are good. Newcastle play in the same stripes so they must be good too. That's cognitive bias.

The Pig & Whistle pub team knocked Tottenham Hotspur out of the FA Cup in 1896. Newcastle scraped to a 1-0 win over the Pig & Whistle pub team this year (Bruce was obviously sick that day). That makes Newcastle better than Spurs. That's confirmation bias.

Both slightly delusional in essence. But then we're talking about supporting Newcastle, so that's actually a plus.

Cefn Druids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cefn_Druids_A.F.C.  play in the same strip as NUFC but I doubt I'd get cognitively confused.

A delusional mentality is necessary to support NUFC.  They last won the FA Cup the year before I was born and I still keep thinking they might acheive something before I get my pension in 18 months. 



Hope springs eternal to idiots.

They're still the best team in Newcastle though. You have that. Even Bruce can't rob them of that - can he?

However I'd still keep a wary eye on Jarrow FC - their march up the divisions continues apace.

Kindly open a cognitively biased football thread - black and white strands and keep this thread unto its intent. Saint Shearer may or may not be a benefit. The jury is out.... back.

Shush. Just because you don't respect a religion doesn't mean you can ban it from your religion thread. And especially one from which actual benefits are derived! I still have Don Givens' discarded shin-pad from when Ireland slew the mighty Czechoslovakia in Dalymount Park back when everyone played in black and white (not just Newcastle).

And then there's trainspotting. Now THAT'S a cult if ever there was one! But I admit even I would struggle to see any benefits accruing from that particular brand of weirdness ...

Untangling your cults from your religions ought be Cognitive homework enough for tonight. But Bias is an applied human condition and of no benefit to anyone. Best not put them together.

I agree. From now on I'll stick to basic definitions. To be a religion one needs gods, places of worship, chants and prayers, myths, rituals, dodgy organisations, unquestioning believers, strict codes of conduct that everyone ignores ... ok, football stays and trainspotters are out. Their organisations are actually boringly un-dodgy, their places of worship too wet and windy, and way too many pedantic cults involved.

TRAINSPOTTING ??? RELIGION ???   

In some places this can be a tricky combination:

Not sure if this benefit has been mentioned but there it seems that many expat Ukrainians flock to their churches for solace, company - and prayer in these difficult times. And that is not unusual in times of shared crises - nor a facet of religion to be condemned,  I suggest.

My own (off religious site) prayers have not been answered because Bad Vlad the Mad  continues functioning in his own  outrageous way.

I wonder at His Nordness assertion above that a religion needs gods. Arguably the Tao is not a god, but taoism is mostly regarded as a religion.

Being rather out of touch with the basis of this thread, at the recent Royal memorial service, I was jolted into realising what the negative aspect of this thread is all about what was mentioned then about Earth being an intended world. A neat concept versus the big accident argument, I suppose. Another benefit of religion is that it engages the mind.

Religion can come in handy if you are a vicious and brutal dictator. 


I was unutterably depressed seeing the picture of Putin at Easter Mass (24th April is Easter Day in the Russian Orthodox Church) - see below. He has a great friend and fan in Kirill, His Holiness, the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. It is rumoured that this Patriarch, like his predecessor, Alexei II, is ex-KGB. An interesting career move that, KGB to Church. Hope it doesn't give the Archbish of Canters any mad ideas.


The Ukrainians are left without  a spiritual father - at least on earth.  The Guardian's Emma Graham-Harrison, reporting on March 7th, interviewed local Ukrainians for their opinions about Kirill and the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine. The response was mostly a pessimistic view of Kirill and his motives towards Ukraine based on his rumoured links with the KGB:

Quote :

Like many Ukrainians who no longer trust the Russian-linked churches in their country, Yuir is particularly wary of the Moscow Patriarch, Kirill, who according to material from Soviet archives was a government agent before the fall of the USSR. "Kirill is a KGB guy, and he supports all aggression against Ukraine," he said, but asked not to give his last name, worried like many in the town about community tensions about the church. "He’s a bastard, not a religious leader."

But then tyrants have always followed Henry VII's advice to Henry Jr. (who famously ignored it): "Always keep the church on your side." Even Stalin saw the point of this - I think during WWII.




How is it we still - after 2000 years - mess up like this? No wonder Jesus wept: who wouldn't?



But here he is, our man of the moment: the camera caught him crossing himself. 

I thought that this wasn't posted by Temp - her use of English was always far better than that - but maybe I'm wrong. I do hope we haven't been invaded by Russian hackers.

It was moi!

I know I did put a full stop in the wrong place, but was my use of English really so awful - I am full of antihistamines at the moment, so that's my excuse for sloppy syntax. I was being trying to be ironic!

Surely history does suggest that the religious faith of the masses can benefit a dictator? Remember Moses, the raven in Animal Farm, a nasty bird who was allowed by the pigs to return to the farm after the Great Rebellion? His talk of Sugarcandy Mountain (unlimited sugar lumps for the faithful in the afterlife), encouraged the creatures to work harder and accept food shortages. Napoleon increased Moses's beer ration as a reward for his good service in keeping the lower animals quiet and happy.

Oh dear, je reviens - and am mistook by MM for a "Russian shit"!

EDIT about MM's EDIT:
You've edited your post, MM, and now "Russian shit", the pithy expression which I quoted, is gone - makes me sound even worse!

I'd better start again...

Oh Temp, I'm so sorry, but I've been fending off fake clients from my own website for the past month now and so I'm very wary, and weary, of everyone that doesn't come across as simply 'up front'.

I blame Liz Truss's Russian hat.

Nevertheless, it's good to see you back!

Priscilla wrote:

Another benefit of religion is that it engages the mind.

I'll say.

I get e-shots every day from Father Richard Rohr, a wise and sane Catholic priest. His stuff gets me thinking - and struggling - especially when I, as I often do, find myself slipping down the greasy pole of cynicism and accidie. The whole Putin as a devout Christian (see above) reporting had me in a very dark place, despite my laughter at MM mistaking me for a Russian troll. Rohr's comments this morning are very interesting, I think, especially his analysis of that difficult old phrase "the world, the flesh and the Devil".


I like the Aquinas quotation, too: "Evil only succeeds by disguising itself as good."


And that image of Putin above shows the Russian President literally as a "bearer of light", standing there, as he does, with his Easter candle shining in the darkness. Horribly disturbing.


For Father Richard, the cycle of violence mirrors the cycle of evil. This is what I have just read:


Brazilian archbishop Hélder Câmara (1909–1999) was a brilliant nonviolent activist who offered a model for understanding how structural injustice leads to greater violence. He wrote: “If violence is met by violence, the world will fall into a spiral of violence. I overlay Dom Hélder’s teaching with traditional Catholic moral teaching which saw the three primary sources of evil as the world, the flesh, and the devil—in that order. When evil and institutionalized violence (“structural sin”) go unrecognized at the first level, the second and third levels of violence and evil are inevitable. If we don’t nip evil in the bud at the level where it is legitimated and disguised, we will have little power to fight it at the individual level.

By “world” we don’t mean creation or nature, but “the system”: how groups, cultures, institutions, and nations organize to protect themselves and maintain their power. This is the most hidden and denied level of evil and violence. We cannot see it because we’re all inside of it, and it is in our ego’s self-interest to protect this corporate deception.

Historically, organized religion has put most of its concern at the middle level of the spiral of violence, or what we called “the flesh.” Flesh in this context is individual sin, the personal mistakes that we make. Individual evil is certainly real, but the very word “flesh” has made us preoccupied with sexual sins, which Jesus rarely mentioned. When we punish or shame individuals for their sins, we are usually treating symptoms rather than the root problem or cause: the illusion of separation from God and others.

At the top of the spiral of violence sits “the devil.” This personification of evil is hard to describe because it’s so well disguised and even idealized. If “the world” is hidden structural violence, primarily through oppression and injustice, then “the devil” is sanctified, romanticized, and legitimated violence - violence deemed culturally necessary to control the other two levels: the angry flesh and the world run amuck. Any institution thought of as “too big to fail” or somehow above criticism has a strong possibility of diabolical* misuse (my emphasis). Think of the military industrial complex, the penal system, the worldwide banking system, multinational corporations subject to no law, tax codes benefiting the wealthy, the healthcare and pharmaceutical establishments, the worldwide war economy led by my own country, or even organized religion. We need and admire these institutions all too much. Paul called this level of violence “powers, principalities, thrones, and dominions” (Ephesians 6:12).

If we do not recognize the roots of violence at the first structural level (“the world”), we will waste time focusing exclusively on the second and individual level (“the flesh”), and we will seldom see those real evils which disguise themselves as angels of light (“the devil”). Remember, Lucifer means “Light Bearer.”

As Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274) taught: "Evil only succeeds by disguising itself as good."




Gosh, heavy stuff for these early days of May - no darling buds from me at the moment, I'm afraid. Sorry about that, but there was a time when we did "engage" our minds with such knotty and thorny issues about religion. But perhaps we all have had too much of the heavy stuff to last a life time and it really is of no interest anymore. Going round and round in theological circles just makes me dizzy these days. More productive to go for a walk and observe which of the said darling buds, if any, have survived the recent frosts.

PS By diabolical*, no reference to little red men with pitchforks intended, but simply the spirit of evil that can manifest in humans - probably when the ancient "reptilian" brain collaborates with the frontal lobe and all hell is let loose. It's then that the terrifyingly cold, calculating and diabolically creative killers have a field day.

A benefit I think that was overlooked in the fiery days of this discussion is, of course, the plus points of a religious burial. Remains for the greatly honoured  are often niched in hallowed places - more so long ago when there was space for them and big monuments. Religious burial services of several kinds are requested in wills and mourners seem to be attracted to the services although there are alternatives for nonbelievers. And those can take on a sort of inherited form of a religious service. So for the record a benefit of religion can also be a great send off and remembrance; this thread is still going. So.