As I saw today a documentary about the Thirty Year's War starting with the defenestration in Prague https://www.britannica.com/event/Defenestration-of-Prague-1618 As I saw the documentary, the rebels needed money a lot of money to pay for the armies and the mercenaries...and as the collecting of money in the Dutch Republic, which was a bit in the same circumstances,, was better and as such could resist and come to a Peace of Westphalia, the Bohemians lost against the Habsburgs at the battle of the White Mountain because of the lack of money? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_White_Mountain Religious zealous fervour, how important it may have been, couldn't compensate the lack of money? And even the Turks became involved as allies to the Protestants?
And it was only the first phase in the Thirty Year's War, later it became a European war with both Britain and Sweden involved? Britain as later too, for the balance of power on the continent?
About the money gathering of the Dutch Republic: Public Finance of the Dutch Republic in Comparative Perspective https://goo.gl/vkzkV4 and in google: "Government-Market Interaction: Holland’s Loan Issuing Policy during the Dutch War"
That is my first approach...tomorrow more...
Kind regards, Paul.
Last edited by PaulRyckier on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 16:44; edited 1 time in total
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Thank you, Paul, this brings memories of when I - on the BBC boards - asked what was meant by defenestration, and you pointed me towards the answer, our first meeting and perhaps my debut on those boards.
This seems an interesting thread, and I shall follow it.
The 30 Years War is very complicated, the basic religious element being overlaid by political considerations.
Initially a dispute between the various States, Duchies, Principalities, Free Cities etc of the Holy Roman Empire, the intervention of Denmark, whose King, Christian, was also Duke of Holstein, technically therefore Christian also had a seat in the HRE, spread the conflict into a major international war.
Neither Scotland or England were officially combatants, however since Frederick, Count Palatine and King of Bohemia, was married to the daughter of James VI and I, both Governments authorised the recruitment of mercenaries to fight in the conflict.
wiki: Christian IV had obtained for his kingdom a level of stability and wealth that was virtually unmatched elsewhere in Europe. Denmark was funded by tolls on the Øresund and also by extensive war-reparations from Sweden. Denmark's intervention in the Thirty Years' War was aided by France and by Charles I of England, who agreed to help subsidise the war partly because Christian was of uncle of both the Stuart king and his sister Elizabeth of Bohemia through their mother, Anna of Denmark. Some 13,700 Scottish soldiers were to be sent as allies to help Christian IV under the command of General Robert Maxwell, 1st Earl of Nithsdale. Moreover, some 6000 English troops under Charles Morgan also eventually arrived to bolster the defence of Denmark though it took longer for these to arrive than Christian hoped, not least due to the ongoing British campaigns against France and Spain. Thus Christian, as war-leader of the Lower Saxon Circle, entered the war with an army of only 20,000 mercenaries, some of his allies from Britain and a national army 15,000 strong, leading them as Duke of Holstein rather than as King of Denmark.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Thank you, Paul, this brings memories of when I - on the BBC boards - asked what was meant by defenestration, and you pointed me towards the answer, our first meeting and perhaps my debut on those boards.
This seems an interesting thread, and I shall follow it.
Kind regards.
Yes Nielsen,
"defenestration", for us Belgians common with two languages, as in French "de la fenêtre" Latin "de fenestra", but it is the same word in Dutch "defenestratie", even the same word in Slavic languages...as in Czech and Russian...to throw out of the "fenêtre/fenestra"... Something new I learned today is the medical term:"fenestra"... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenestra
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
wiki: Christian IV had obtained for his kingdom a level of stability and wealth that was virtually unmatched elsewhere in Europe. Denmark was funded by tolls on the Øresund and also by extensive war-reparations from Sweden. Denmark's intervention in the Thirty Years' War was aided by France and by Charles I of England, who agreed to help subsidise the war partly because Christian was of uncle of both the Stuart king and his sister Elizabeth of Bohemia through their mother, Anna of Denmark. Some 13,700 Scottish soldiers were to be sent as allies to help Christian IV under the command of General Robert Maxwell, 1st Earl of Nithsdale. Moreover, some 6000 English troops under Charles Morgan also eventually arrived to bolster the defence of Denmark though it took longer for these to arrive than Christian hoped, not least due to the ongoing British campaigns against France and Spain. Thus Christian, as war-leader of the Lower Saxon Circle, entered the war with an army of only 20,000 mercenaries, some of his allies from Britain and a national army 15,000 strong, leading them as Duke of Holstein rather than as King of Denmark.
Triceratops,
that was not so emphasized in the documentary if I recall it well, more the French and the British and even the Turks... As I have never studied the Thirty Years War in depth as I have the Dutch Revolt with the Spanish branch of the Habsburgs, I will first look more to the details before I reply.
As for: "The 30 Years War is very complicated, the basic religious element being overlaid by political considerations.
Initially a dispute between the various States, Duchies, Principalities, Free Cities etc of the Holy Roman Empire, the intervention of Denmark, whose King, Christian, was also Duke of Holstein, technically therefore Christian also had a seat in the HRE, spread the conflict into a major international war. Neither Scotland or England were officially combatants, however since Frederick, Count Palatine and King of Bohemia, was married to the daughter of James VI and I, both Governments authorised the recruitment of mercenaries to fight in the conflict. The adventures of Malcolm Graeme:
"The 30 Years War is very complicated, the basic religious element being overlaid by political considerations."
Completely agree, perhaps in the beginning perhaps religious, but in the later phases rapidly oveturned by political considerations, as the Catholic France at the Protestant side and the Catholic James I?, if I read it well...and even the Turks...
The adventures of Malcolm Graeme (on other sites I read Graham instead of Graeme) And there seems something odd with the site you mentioned The Lion of the North by G A Henty If you click on the Preston Speed Publications you receive: this pagina can not be entered or something like that...all the other links to search for the "about us/source" are also not be able to reach... and such a jingoist language... http://reformation.org/hentybio.html And from this link: "Editor's Note Mr. Henty's great books are now published by an American publisher, PrestonSpeed Publications. This is the type of Anglo-American cooperation we need -- not the military alliance against Iraq!!
?????? Some British religious nationalist jingoist...
Will tomorrow expand more on the 30 years war...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
have spent the rest of my evening with IQ, race segregation, nature versus nurture, on the Tumbleweed café...and on another thread about the Humanist and Christian celebration, the Confirmation and all that, in one word the coming of age...and how we came at the end at the Holy Blood Procession of Bruges is beyond me...
Excuses for not starting a reply...but anyway, as I am a bit ignorant about the Thirty Years War, I have to study it more in depth before I can enter again...
Kind regards to both from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 03 Jun 2018, 23:44
Triceratops wrote:
Christian IV's sister Anne was married to James and mother of Charles I:
wiki: Christian IV had obtained for his kingdom a level of stability and wealth that was virtually unmatched elsewhere in Europe. Denmark was funded by tolls on the Øresund and also by extensive war-reparations from Sweden. Denmark's intervention in the Thirty Years' War was aided by France and by Charles I of England, who agreed to help subsidise the war partly because Christian was of uncle of both the Stuart king and his sister Elizabeth of Bohemia through their mother, Anna of Denmark. Some 13,700 Scottish soldiers were to be sent as allies to help Christian IV under the command of General Robert Maxwell, 1st Earl of Nithsdale. Moreover, some 6000 English troops under Charles Morgan also eventually arrived to bolster the defence of Denmark though it took longer for these to arrive than Christian hoped, not least due to the ongoing British campaigns against France and Spain. Thus Christian, as war-leader of the Lower Saxon Circle, entered the war with an army of only 20,000 mercenaries, some of his allies from Britain and a national army 15,000 strong, leading them as Duke of Holstein rather than as King of Denmark.
red country with Protestant majority yellow Habsburg Spain orange Habsburg Austria 1 1620-1623 defeat of the Czechs and the Palatinate 2 1625-1629 intervention of Denmark 3 1630-1632 Sweden 4 1635-1643 French interventiion against Spain and the Emperor 5 1645-1648 French and Swedens campaign in Germany
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
As I saw today a documentary about the Thirty Year's War starting with the defenestration in Prague https://www.britannica.com/event/Defenestration-of-Prague-1618 As I saw the documentary, the rebels needed money a lot of money to pay for the armies and the mercenaries...and as the collecting of money in the Dutch Republic, which was a bit in the same circumstances,, was better and as such could resist and come to a Peace of Westphalia, the Bohemians lost against the Habsburgs at the battle of the White Mountain because of the lack of money? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_White_Mountain Religious zealous fervour, how important it may have been, couldn't compensate the lack of money? And even the Turks became involved as allies to the Protestants?
And it was only the first phase in the Thirty Year's War, later it became a European war with both Britain and Sweden involved? Britain as later too, for the balance of power on the continent?
After I know now more about the Thirty Years war, I was wrong in my first approach as it is nearly impossible to compare all the money flows in this long war especially in the later phases...some used their own money paying the mercenaries and had even an own army (as the Swedish?), some countries sent soldiers from their own money to help others for religious or political reasons...even the Dutch Republic despite its war with Spain, could sent soldiers and money for mercenaries to their allies...in my opinion that means that they were wealthy enough to be able to do that...
No perhaps they were right in the documenatary about the lack of money for the Bohemians, but that was only a first and short phase of the Thirty Years war...? Perhaps more interesting is a comparison of the Dutch Republic spending and Spain during this long war? And there I have some data from the sources I mentioned... https://goo.gl/vkzkV4 see page 144 Chapter 2 War expenditure in the Dutch Republic and the Spanish subsidies in the army in Flanders1571-1610 (annual averages in million glds) For instance for the period 1601-1610 estimated war expenditure Dutch Republic 9.5...estimated war expenditure excl. navy 7.5...available for the royal army in Flanders from Spainsh subsidies 7.8... That means the Dutch had more than enough to finance their war?...on the other hand Spain had to fight on several fronts even helping the French for their Catholic cause despite the war effort that much needed in The Netherlands..in a debate about the Dutch revolt there was said in a what if that if Philip II hadn't spent his money and troops in France he could have won in the Netherlands...and then the French fought as I read now against Spain later in the war...as I read in the wiki of the 30 years war...I will try to disentangle all these questions for our small panel in an addendum...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Edited to hopefully improve the font for the last paragraph of post. Tue 05 Jun 2018, 14:53
Although I "did" the 30 years war at school many years ago I don't remember it awfully well. I remember getting confused by the Spanish Netherlands and the Austrian Netherlands and which one is now Belgium and which the Netherlands (or what is sometimes incorrectly called "Holland" in the UK - Holland actually being but one province of the Netherlands).
I remember (later at an evening history class) learning about the defenestration of Prague. That rather surprised me because I always thought of what used to be known as Czechoslovakia as being a Catholic country (a friend of my mother's married someone from that country and converted to Catholicism initially to please him she said). But anyway (at the defenestration) the Catholics who were thrown out of the window had their falls broken by the rubbish tip so they survived, though I'm sure you know that.
Some time ago I remember commenting about a kids' programme The Flashing Blade/Le Chevalier tempête that was shown on BBC TV many years ago and about being unable to find the British version on YouTube. Paul came to my aid and found some clips in English but they were a parody version. (Original film but spoof overdubbing). The wording for the spoof version was written by Russell T Davies who went on to write for Dr Who and also wrote the screenplay for the TV programme about the Jeremy Thorpe scandal being discussed on another thread. "What the heck does that have to do with the Thirty Years War" do I hear you collectively sigh? The story (though fictional) was set in the War of Mantuan Succession (1628-1631) where France was pitted against Spain and its allies. So perhaps it could - sort of - be deemed to be set during the Thirty Years War. It was certainly contemporaneous with part of the Thirty Years War.
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Tue 05 Jun 2018, 22:41; edited 1 time in total
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
As an urban legend I did at one time read that when one of those men thrown out upon the rubbish pit had reached seniority in the service of the Habsburg monarchies, and was to be ennobled there was a suggestion that he should be named 'von Hohenfallen', translated into 'Fallen from the Height'.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
As an urban legend I did at one time read that when one of those men thrown out upon the rubbish pit had reached seniority in the service of the Habsburg monarchies, and was to be ennobled there was a suggestion that he should be named 'von Hohenfallen', translated into 'Fallen from the Height'.
That's a good one Nielsen...I apologize to Vizzer, LiR and Tim...too late to make elaborated replies...came only late in...a copious dinner with the family...5 hours talks included...
See you all tomorrow...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
As an urban legend I did at one time read that when one of those men thrown out upon the rubbish pit had reached seniority in the service of the Habsburg monarchies, and was to be ennobled there was a suggestion that he should be named 'von Hohenfallen', translated into 'Fallen from the Height'.
Ha ha. At least it's not a conspiracy theory.
Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5120 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
The Czechs seem to have a thing about defenestration. As well as the famous 1618 'Defenestration of Prague' which sparked the Thirty Years War, there was an earlier one in 1419 when seven town officials were thrown from the windows of Prague city hall precipitating the Hussite War, and yet another incident in 1948. This last was when the Czechoslovakian minister of foreign affairs, Jan Masaryk, was found dead and wearing just his pyjamas, in the courtyard of the Foreign Ministry directly below his bathroom window. The initial investigation of his death stated that he committed suicide by jumping out of the window, but a 2004 police investigation confirmed what many had long suspected, that, contrary to the initial ruling he did not commit suicide but was assassinated, most likely by Czechoslovak Communists and their Soviet advisers for opposing the February 1948 Communist putsch.
But I'm rather wandering off topic. Sorry Paul ... I'm another one that tends to latch onto these little snippets of history and then pursue them as they drift, blossom-like on the breeze, luring one ever on, and away from the OP.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
The Czechs seem to have a thing about defenestration. As well as the famous 1618 'Defenestration of Prague' which sparked the Thirty Years War, there was an earlier one in 1419 when seven town officials were thrown from the windows of Prague city hall precipitating the Hussite War, and yet another incident in 1948. This last was when the Czechoslovakian minister of foreign affairs, Jan Masaryk, was found dead and wearing just his pyjamas, in the courtyard of the Foreign Ministry directly below his bathroom window. The initial investigation of his death stated that he committed suicide by jumping out of the window, but a 2004 police investigation confirmed what many had long suspected, that, contrary to the initial ruling he did not commit suicide but was assassinated, most likely by Czechoslovak Communists and their Soviet advisers for opposing the February 1948 Communist putsch.
But I'm rather wandering off topic. Sorry Paul ... I'm another one that tends to latch onto these little snippets of history and then pursue them as they drift, blossom-like on the breeze, luring one ever on, and away from the OP.
Yes Meles meles, the Czechs seem to have defenitely a thing with (why do I say "with" instead of "about"? because I translate it in my mind from the Dutch " 'n ding met"?) defenestration...and yes here is it all... http://allthatsinteresting.com/defenestration And it would have something to do with "Jezebel" from the Bible... Where are now our ladies knowing about the Bible?...I, as a Roman-Catholic, only learned the Catechismus...such as with what to baptize...even with the mentiioning of escapes when there was no water... and the statements of the pope...it has a name and even that I am forgotten ... From the link: "According to Czech historian Ota Konrad, from Charles University, “The inspiration for defenestration comes from the Bible, in the story about Jezebel, who was thrown from the window by her people. Defenestration was a very symbolic execution: It is about falling from high to low, symbolising a fall from grace.” And according to the link there were defenestrations all over the world...it seem thus not Christian Bible linked...
Yes the only Jezebel that I ever knew was from the 78 tours records that we received, my sister and I, from our cousin, who became then a grown up...start of the Fifties...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
I didn't know about the Jezebel inspiration for defenestration. It wasn't defenestration but I remember that on one of the serialisations of classic* works of literature that used to be shown around 5.00 pm on BBC many years ago there was a dramatisation of a story based in Scotland. I can't remember the name of the story or whether it was a tale by Robert Louis Stevenson or Walter Scott but there was a scene where somebody who had done something against the clan (been a traitor? really can't remember) and was thrown to his death from a cliff. I've never been particularly fond of heights and that scene really frightened me at the time. I remember being terrified by an episode of Fabian of Scotland Yard where people were being drowned in the bathtub (it didn't put me off baths fortunately) and I had a nightmare after a David Attenborough programme (he was very young then - well I was even younger, my Dad had only just bought a very small "telly") where DA met with headhunters (or maybe tribes which had been headhunters until fairly recently) where there were human skulls in abundance. When Quatermass and the Pit was first shown on TV my parents wouldn't let me watch it because they said I would be scared - though I did catch the film version on TV many years later.
I think I mentioned before that I had been surprised to learn that there were several Williams of Orange other than the one who co-reigned over England with Queen Mary (as in James II's daughter) for a time. I shouldn't have been surprised really because there have of course been names which crop up again and again in the British royal family.
Nielsen Triumviratus Rei Publicae Constituendae
Posts : 595 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Denmark
Thank you Paul, for the OP, with the threads, to me especially the one by Ralf Bovers - chapters one and two are interesting, as they describe, alas not intimately, how the Republiek was functioning, the latter ones deal mostly with the financing of the wars in which the Republiek was involved.
Trike, yours on Christian IV of Denmark-Norway is interesting as well, I tend to not agree with an opinion widely held, not least by himself, that he was a good King and soldier, fortunately - imho - he was beaten relatively early and made a fast way out with only having to pay ransom for the peninsula of Jutland temporarily occupied by Imperial troops. This left the way for the Swedes to their imperial days - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Empire
The bit by GA Henty is interesting as well as the reference to Dumas' 'The black tulip', in those novels are points of English jingoism and French 'Rosbif-bashing' - does such a word or concept exist?
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
I didn't know about the Jezebel inspiration for defenestration. It wasn't defenestration but I remember that on one of the serialisations of classic* works of literature that used to be shown around 5.00 pm on BBC many years ago there was a dramatisation of a story based in Scotland. I can't remember the name of the story or whether it was a tale by Robert Louis Stevenson or Walter Scott but there was a scene where somebody who had done something against the clan (been a traitor? really can't remember) and was thrown to his death from a cliff. I've never been particularly fond of heights and that scene really frightened me at the time. I remember being terrified by an episode of Fabian of Scotland Yard where people were being drowned in the bathtub (it didn't put me off baths fortunately) and I had a nightmare after a David Attenborough programme (he was very young then - well I was even younger, my Dad had only just bought a very small "telly") where DA met with headhunters (or maybe tribes which had been headhunters until fairly recently) where there were human skulls in abundance. When Quatermass and the Pit was first shown on TV my parents wouldn't let me watch it because they said I would be scared - though I did catch the film version on TV many years later.
I think I mentioned before that I had been surprised to learn that there were several Williams of Orange other than the one who co-reigned over England with Queen Mary (as in James II's daughter) for a time. I shouldn't have been surprised really because there have of course been names which crop up again and again in the British royal family.
Lady,
my logic and connection with the thread was:
"From the link: "According to Czech historian Ota Konrad, from Charles University, “The inspiration for defenestration comes from the Bible, in the story about Jezebel, who was thrown from the window by her people. Defenestration was a very symbolic execution: It is about falling from high to low, symbolising a fall from grace.” And according to the link there were defenestrations all over the world...it seem thus not Christian Bible linked... Yes the only Jezebel that I ever knew was from the 78 tours records that we received, my sister and I, from our cousin, who became then a grown up...start of the Fifties..." And further asking Temperance and Priscilla about Jezebel in the Bible... "And it would have something to do with "Jezebel" from the Bible... Where are now our ladies knowing about the Bible?...I, as a Roman-Catholic, only learned the Catechismus...such as with what to baptize...even with the mentiioning of escapes when there was no water... and the statements of the pope...it has a name and even that I am forgotten ..." And in another message to Vizzer I remembered that it were "dogmas"
As you are perhaps a non-Roman-Catholic, you know perhaps more about the Bible than I? And I ask you what with the Bible-Jezebel? I know that I can find it all on the internet... , but it would be a pleasure to hear your take on that...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
"I think I mentioned before that I had been surprised to learn that there were several Williams of Orange other than the one who co-reigned over England with Queen Mary (as in James II's daughter) for a time. I shouldn't have been surprised really because there have of course been names which crop up again and again in the British royal family."
Lady,
of course there are many Oranges as Stadtholder of the Republic!, including the later King of Britain William III...nothing to do with kings...there first king of The Netherlands was the king of the short lived United Kingdom of the Netherlands (1815-1830) with the blessing of the UK...and by the way the Belgium in 1830 was also with the blessing of the UK to have a bulwark against the dangerous France; as one see in 1848 with Napoleon III and yes there was in between also a short lived Second Republic... Of course some "Orangists" , see that royalty as starting with William the Silent...Dirk?
"Thank you Paul, for the OP, with the threads, to me especially the one by Ralf Bovers - chapters one and two are interesting, as they describe, alas not intimately, how the Republiek was functioning, the latter ones deal mostly with the financing of the wars in which the Republiek was involved."
It was a pleasure to have interested you.
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Oh Paul, although I was born and brought up in England I am of part Irish descent and was brought up Catholic - well I still go to church so I expect all the other Res Historians will be doing collective eye rolls. I can only remember that Jezebel was supposed to have been an adulteress and was thrown from the walls and her corpse eaten by dogs - what a lovely story for primary school children. As I've said before I tend to keep religion private and not talk about it because I don't want to be embroiled in arguments. I have been quite busy with typing today but I managed to track down something about the languages of Belgium which incidentally gives a very potted history of Belgium.
I hadn't realised there were a couple of pockets (on the border with Germany) of the Belgian population which spoke a version of German - or that the Netherlands had once incorporated both the present day Netherlands and Belgium but I expect that is dealt with in the radio programmes which were the original inspiration for this thread. I think I may have mentioned this on another thread but when I did an A level History course at night school I picked up a library book thinking it was about the William of Orange that was co-ruler of England for a time and it transpired it was about William the Silent. I rather liked the story about the mother of the artist Peter Paul Rubens getting her husband out of jail (where he had been placed for having a fling with William the Silent's then wife - though I think that's a reasonably well known fact) "Peter Paul Rubens was born to Jan Rubens and Maria Pypelinckx on June 28, 1577. Jan Rubens was a lawyer of Antwerp who, because of his religious preference, fled to Germany in 1568 to escape persecution. In Cologne, Germany, he had an affair with the wife of William the Silent, Prince of Orange, and as a result he was thrown into prison. Released after two years, due to the devoted efforts of his wife, Jan Rubens was allowed to live in Siegen, in Westphalia, Germany, where Peter Paul was born. The family lived for some years in Cologne until Jan Rubens died in 1587, at which time his widow returned to Antwerp, Belgium, bringing her three children with her."
Not too long ago I mentioned the series Versailles which I thought was well acted but that it was a somewhat loose adaptation of what actually happened at the time of Louis XIV. One of the odd choices the show runners made in adaptation was that they only cast one of the de Witts (Johan). No mention of Cornelis. Fortunately the violent murder (as I say of Johan only in the TV show) was not depicted on screen. I hope I have the names of the de Witts correct - if not don't blame me blame Wikipedia.
I'm also linking a very short video I found (it only deals with the simple present tense of the verb 'to be') about slight differences between standard French and Walloon.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
"Of course some "Orangists" , see that royalty as starting with William the Silent...Dirk? "
Of course I guess that Dirk is not an Orange royalist ...and to be honest they were princes of both Nassau and Orange...But Louis XIV picked "Orange" from the Dutch...What happened to Nassau I have to seek for... And as I found for the William II search, they were always "Stadholders" reporting to the Staten-Generaal. William III was King (consort? Vizzer?) of Britain, but "stadholder" of the "United Provinces" as Vizzer used so well, to avoid the eternal misunderstanding of "The Netherlands". And kings appeared only to the William coming from "the victorious over the French" Britain to form the United Kingdom of the Netherlands, which was reduced from 1830 on by Belgium and at the end has to loss Luxemburg too, remaining as the Kingdom of The Netherlands, nearly the former "Republic of the Seven Provinces" or "the United Provinces" (in Dutch: De Verenigde Provinciën)
Of course the Dutch House of Orange actually takes its name from the city of Orange (Aurenja in the local Provençale language) situated on the river Rhone just north of Avignon in southern France. Orange was founded by Roman army veterans in 35 BC as a 'colonia' and named by them, Arausio, supposedly after the name of a local celtic deity. In the eighth century Orange/Aurenja had become the feudal capital of the Caroligian Counts of Orange and in the eleventh century, with the breakup of the Kingdom of Arles, the counts gained complete independence and Orange became a sovereign city state. In 1163 Orange was further raised in status to become a principality, as a fief of the Holy Roman Empire. But although now grandly called a principality it was in reality quite a small territory being only about 20km by 14km in extent. It was, however, strategically very close to the Papal court at Avignon, as well as being on a commercially important crossroads between an old West-East road linking Spain and Aquitaine, through Provence to Italy ... and the South-North river route from Marseilles, up the Rhône valley, towards Burgundy, France, Germany and Flanders.
William the Silent, Count of Nassau, whose main estates were in the Netherlands, inherited the title of Prince of Orange in 1544. William was not a descendant of the original Counts/Princes of Orange but gained the principality by testament from his cousin, René of Châlon, who was the last descendant of the original Princes, albeit only through the maternal line, and who had died with no surviving children. Thus the tiny principality was incorporated into the extensive holdings of what became the House of Orange-Nassau, which put it on the Protestant side in the French Wars of Religion during which it was attacked several times and was badly damaged. The city remained part of scattered Nassau holdings until it was finally taken by the forces of Louis XIV in 1682, when its ruler was the Dutch Stadtholder, William III of Orange, who would later become King William III of England, and he was the last Prince of Orange to actually rule the principality (and then only up until Louis XIV's annexation). Nevertheless, although the principality had fallen to Louis XIV and was completely encircled by French lands with little possibility of ever being recovered, Willam refused to concede his claim to rule.
In 1702 William III died childless and the right to the principality became a matter of dispute between Frederick I of Prussia and John William Friso of Nassau-Dietz, who both claimed the title 'Prince of Orange'. At the same time Louis XIV of France enfeoffed (legally granted in exchange for pledged support) François Louis, Prince of Conti, the Principality of Orange, and so in 1702 there were actually three claimants to the title. In 1713 in the Treaty of Utrecht, Frederick I of Prussia ceded the Principality to France (without surrendering the princely title) although John William Friso of Nassau-Dietz, the other claimant to the principality, did not agree to cede anything. Only in 1732, with the Treaty of Partage, did William Friso’s successor, William IV, Prince of Orange, renounce all his claims to the territory, but again (like Frederick I) he did not renounce his claim to the title. In the same treaty an agreement was made between the claimants stipulating that both houses be allowed to use the title (and the Kings of Prussia and the German Emperors continued to style themselves Princes of Orange until 1918).
In 1814 after the defeat of Napoleon the Dutch Republic of the United Provinces was not revived but replaced by the Kingdom of the United Netherlands, under a King of the House of Orange-Nassau. In 1815 the Congress of Vienna took care of French sensitivity by stipulating that the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be ruled by the House of "Oranje-Nassau" – thus to all intents and purposes referring to Oranje (the colour) and not Orange (the city/territory) as had been the custom until then. Indirectly the city of Orange also gave its name to other Dutch-influenced parts of the world, such as Orange County in New York State, several towns called Orange in New Jersey and Connecticut, and the Orange River and Orange Free State in South Africa.
These are the arms of the city of Orange that were adopted in the 12th century (at a time when sweet oranges were only just starting to be cultivated in Europe by the Arabs of southern Spain). At the top are the ancient arms of the Counts of Orange, and below, in a typical medieval visual pun, are three ripe oranges:
The Dutch 'royal' colour of orange also seems to have been adopted simply with reference to the name, while the only link to the orange-coloured fruit is through the above bit of civic heraldry. Oranges, called iranges in the Provençale dialect of the region, have never actually been cultivated around the city of Orange/Aurenja and the pun only works in the local language when spoken, as unlike in English or French, the city name is spelled differently to that of the fruit or its colour (and in Dutch my understanding is that the colour is oranje, while the fruit is een sinaasappel).
Last edited by Meles meles on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 03:03; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
thank you so much for this interesting survey about the "Orange" connection. I was there some years ago starting from Avignon. And the Dutch connection is still memorated overthere. I showed it with pictures in the time of the BBC. But that was the only thing I found at the time. But your survey is that more complete and "stuffed?" (étoffé) (our Flemish dialect: gestoffeerd).
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Oh Paul, although I was born and brought up in England I am of part Irish descent and was brought up Catholic - well I still go to church so I expect all the other Res Historians will be doing collective eye rolls. I can only remember that Jezebel was supposed to have been an adulteress and was thrown from the walls and her corpse eaten by dogs - what a lovely story for primary school children. As I've said before I tend to keep religion private and not talk about it because I don't want to be embroiled in arguments. I have been quite busy with typing today but I managed to track down something about the languages of Belgium which incidentally gives a very potted history of Belgium.
I hadn't realised there were a couple of pockets (on the border with Germany) of the Belgian population which spoke a version of German - or that the Netherlands had once incorporated both the present day Netherlands and Belgium but I expect that is dealt with in the radio programmes which were the original inspiration for this thread. I think I may have mentioned this on another thread but when I did an A level History course at night school I picked up a library book thinking it was about the William of Orange that was co-ruler of England for a time and it transpired it was about William the Silent. I rather liked the story about the mother of the artist Peter Paul Rubens getting her husband out of jail (where he had been placed for having a fling with William the Silent's then wife - though I think that's a reasonably well known fact) "Peter Paul Rubens was born to Jan Rubens and Maria Pypelinckx on June 28, 1577. Jan Rubens was a lawyer of Antwerp who, because of his religious preference, fled to Germany in 1568 to escape persecution. In Cologne, Germany, he had an affair with the wife of William the Silent, Prince of Orange, and as a result he was thrown into prison. Released after two years, due to the devoted efforts of his wife, Jan Rubens was allowed to live in Siegen, in Westphalia, Germany, where Peter Paul was born. The family lived for some years in Cologne until Jan Rubens died in 1587, at which time his widow returned to Antwerp, Belgium, bringing her three children with her."
I looked to the film and it is honest and to the point and yes as it is as it is. My only slight remark is about the languages of East and West Flanders. As I personally know a lot of these dialects, East and West Flemish don't differ that much and in the film they let East Flemish belong to Brabants, while in my opinion there is a Flemish (from the former county of Flanders) unity from Dunkirk to above Ghent up to the region of the leftbank of the Scheldt and from Ghent on a dialect continuum starting from Sint Niklaas to Antwerp and Brussels which is Antwaerps/Brabants...but I agree that is already the fine tuning for the linguists and too difficult to diffrenciate in such a general program...
But thank you nevertheless very much for this original and realistic link to Belgium.
Will add my comment on the religion in another addendum message.
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Not too long ago I mentioned the series Versailles which I thought was well acted but that it was a somewhat loose adaptation of what actually happened at the time of Louis XIV. One of the odd choices the show runners made in adaptation was that they only cast one of the de Witts (Johan). No mention of Cornelis. Fortunately the violent murder (as I say of Johan only in the TV show) was not depicted on screen. I hope I have the names of the de Witts correct - if not don't blame me blame Wikipedia.
I'm also linking a very short video I found (it only deals with the simple present tense of the verb 'to be') about slight differences between standard French and Walloon.
Lady,
the brothers de Witt indeed...
"I'm also linking a very short video I found (it only deals with the simple present tense of the verb 'to be') about slight differences between standard French and Walloon."
In my opinion the real Walloon dialect differs a lot from the standard French...and many use Walloon for the whole of the dialects of Wallonia, while you have also Picard and even Letzeburgs, which is a Germanic dialect and as such is another language than French... https://alphaomegatranslations.com/foreign-language/the-walloon-dialect-of-south-belgium/
But as said in the article the dialects are dying in favour of the standard language and in Southern Belgium, more than the Flemish dialects from Dutch in the North...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
"Oh Paul, although I was born and brought up in England I am of part Irish descent and was brought up Catholic - well I still go to church so I expect all the other Res Historians will be doing collective eye rolls. I can only remember that Jezebel was supposed to have been an adulteress and was thrown from the walls and her corpse eaten by dogs - what a lovely story for primary school children. As I've said before I tend to keep religion private and not talk about it because I don't want to be embroiled in arguments. "
Of course LiR I respect that very much and as I see it nowadays the Catholics of today, at least those that I know are completely other ones of those of sixty years ago...it is unbelievable what a change...at least overhere...perhaps the Muslims living overhere will be changed the same way in sixty years...? The Catholics not so much about dogmatism anymore but more to the core of the real values of human life and there they come closer to the Humanists...? And perhaps the humanists will come closer to the Catholics...?
But LiR what I pointed to, was how we were learned the Catholic belief now some 70 years ago... It was not a joke from me about that: with what have one to baptize? And I found it back...what a performance of that mighty internet https://www.holyhome.nl/mechelse-catechismus.html
It was exactly! this one which each child had in his hand
And even in chapter 30 "het doopsel" (the baptism? (le baptême))
"2 370. Wie is de bedienaar van het Doopsel? De gewone bedienaar van het Doopsel is de priester, maar in nood mag en moet iedereen dopen. 2 371. Met welk water moet men dopen? Bij gebrek aan gewijd water, moet men dopen met echt en natuurlijkwater, zoals putwater, fonteinwater, regenwater, rivierwater, zeewater"
(who is the one that do the baptism? The normal one is the priest, but in emergency may and must everyone baptize. with what water has one to baptize? In the case of lack of sacred water, one has to baptize with real and natural water, as pitwater, fontainwater, rainwater, riverwater, seawater) Seemingly I forgot it after 65 years...there is no escape...in the desert no baptism...but perhaps an inventive one as I would use the condensation of the night...a few drops on the head...and the rest for me and the new born...
But LiR, without joking, the people were then that way...as the small in length nun from who I still remember the name: Soeur Irene...We had to say to the nuns: "ma soeur" (the French form...in Dutch it was "zuster" (sister))...and she was such a nice nun as I learned later when more grown up...she was the nun of our class (my sister and I, while I was a year earlier at school and she a bit later)...to learn us the difference between "dagelijkse zonden en doodzonden" (daily ? and capital? sins) she had brought with her some samples of white clothes and in some there were some small spots with black ink and in the other some big spots of black ink....
But that were the times of the childhood that youngsters of today would not believe that they ever existed...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Edited to make more grammatically correct 'their being' should have been 'there being' Thu 14 Jun 2018, 12:31
In English the description of the serious and the less serious sins were "mortal" and "venial" respectively, Paul. When I was at school my classmates and I had to study the Catechism. I didn't like it much. There was a play on British TV about 40 years ago called "Oy vey Maria" about a couple where one party was Jewish and the other Catholic. I didn't see it but a Jewish lady I then worked with had and thought it was funny where one of the Catholics baptised the baby (I think in the bath) so that it wouldn't go to Limbo. When we were studying for "First Communion" the simile used for us was that a sin marking the soul was like getting a black spot on a white dress or white shirt. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235654/ Link to IMDB wording about the play but there isn't really very much said. We didn't actually have physical examples of clothes being dirtied at school to demonstrate how sin worked though. My mother (who was a teacher) did mention that one of her friends, another teacher, when trying to teach children about the abstract notion of faith brought a jug and an orange into the class and put the orange in the jug explaining that the orange was still there although it couldn't be seen and that faith was like that - it existed though it could not be seen. In those days teachers were inspected not only on their ability to be able to teach children successfully in mathematics, English and such the like parts of the curriculum but in Catholic schools there was also inspection of how well the teachers were teaching religion, which were separate from the other inspections. A priest (who was an inspector) came into the class where my mother's friend taught. "What is faith?" he asked and a child piped up "It's an orange in a jug". To quote (roughly) Robert Burns, "The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft awry."
I remember Meles Meles mentioned something a while back about there having been several different languages in what we now called France before Napoleon somewhat standardised it - or at least put in motion the steps for standardising it.
In London there is a component college of London University, Birkbeck College, where lectures are given in the evening for people who are already working and cannot study full-time. I started studying there nearly 39 years ago (for a degree in French) but left after two years because my mother fell and couldn't walk properly after that, so I was looking after her and doing the shopping etc and my hometown is a good distance from London. But I digress - that was where I first came across Aucassin et Nicolette. One of the lecturers did mention something about there being a northern group of romance languages and a southern group (which became Occitan). I'd forgotten a lot of that but MM explains it well it a post. But I remember that when we (i.e. myself and my fellow students at Birkbeck) were studying Aucassin et Nicolette' we came across 'on' and the lecturer explained that in old French there was still an accusative case (although most of the cases in Latin had already disappeared as Latin became French) and that 'on' was the accusative of 'hom' (man) - so it seems originally 'on' was gender specific rather than gender neutral.
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 14:50; edited 1 time in total
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
I had relatives in the Greater Liverpool area though a lot of them have either died or moved out now. My relations lived on the outskirts of the city anyway but I can remember seeing on a wall in a (now demolished) more central part of Liverpool "Long Live King Billy" which I thought was a bit strange since William of Orange (the one who was joint-sovereign of Britain circa 1689) had been long dead in the late 1960s (when I saw the wording on the wall) - and not far off another person had written "God bless Our Pope". This was England not Northern Ireland so I was surprised to see evidence of some inter-religious dislike even if it was the best part of 50 years ago. (Is 'inter-religious' the right term, because Catholic and Protestant are both forms of Christianity so not strictly speaking different religions).
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
" There was a play on British TV about 40 years ago called "Oy vey Maria" about a couple where one party was Jewish and the other Catholic. I didn't see it but a Jewish lady I then worked with had and thought it was funny where one of the Catholics baptised the baby (I think in the bath) so that it wouldn't go to Limbo."
When looking to the "oy vey Maria" I first thought it was Spanish...but searching I came on the BBC play and there they write "oy vay"? And now I see that it is of course "Ave Maria"...I sought for a youtube or a summary but found nothing...
"We didn't actually have physical examples of clothes being dirtied at school to demonstrate how sin worked though. My mother (who was a teacher) did mention that one of her friends, another teacher, when trying to teach children about the abstract notion of faith brought a jug and an orange into the class and put the orange in the jug explaining that the orange was still there although it couldn't be seen and that faith was like that - it existed though it could not be seen. In those days teachers were inspected not only on their ability to be able to teach children successfully in mathematics, English and such the like parts of the curriculum but in Catholic schools there was also inspection of how well the teachers were teaching religion, which were separate from the other inspections. A priest (who was an inspector) came into the class where my mother's friend taught. "What is faith?" he asked and a child piped up "It's an orange in a jug". To quote (roughly) Robert Burns, "The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft awry."
Yes I think your mother's friend did as much her best as our "Soeur Irène" with her black spots on white clothes samples. It weren't dirtied clothes...my unmarried uncle, where I grow up together with my sister in our grandmother's house (parents busy as fish merchants) was a tailor...and he had samples of cloths (6 inches on 4 I guess) (I now see that they our word translate with "material, fabric, cloth). Some in a book, some apart to give as sample to the clients (to show to their wifes for instance ) And they were dentated at the edges. Well it were such dentated white cloth samples that our Soeur Irène showed.
"but in Catholic schools there was also inspection of how well the teachers were teaching religion, which were separate from the other inspections. A priest (who was an inspector) came into the class where my mother's friend taught."
Yes those were the times. Also overhere...A Jesuit police started during the Contrareformation in the Southern Netherlands...and then a Nigel...who was it again...says that Belgium don't exist...the whole indoctrinated by the Jesuits during some 400 years...Flemings and Walloons alike...hein!
"I had relatives in the Greater Liverpool area though a lot of them have either died or moved out now. My relations lived on the outskirts of the city anyway but I can remember seeing on a wall in a (now demolished) more central part of Liverpool "Long Live King Billy" which I thought was a bit strange since William of Orange (the one who was joint-sovereign of Britain circa 1689) had been long dead in the late 1960s (when I saw the wording on the wall) - and not far off another person had written "God bless Our Pope". This was England not Northern Ireland so I was surprised to see evidence of some inter-religious dislike even if it was the best part of 50 years ago. (Is 'inter-religious' the right term, because Catholic and Protestant are both forms of Christianity so not strictly speaking different religions)."
Lady, I met some Dutch (in their thirties...), who worked here in Belgium for putting cables of a telephone network? in the ground...they were from a split municipality somewhere I thought in the North and they as Reformed ones fought with wooden sticks incited by their "Elders?" (Dirk can us perhaps enlighten) against the Catholics also weaponed with sticks at the other side of the brook... As we have only Catholics left here in Belgium, they can't fight about such things, but then they fought overhere about languages... And yes the Orangists and the Catholics...But there in Ireland that seems to be quite another kettle of fish... In a rare moment nordmann spoke only once! about a street...men in the middle of the street? throwing burning devices? into the windows?...if I recall it well?...only nordmann knows exatly what he said in that rare moment on our forum...nordmann?...but if you don't want to speak about it, ignore this sentence...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sat 16 Jun 2018, 14:33
BBC 4 (TV) in the UK sometimes shows programmes from continental Europe that have a cult following over here. Engrengages (Spiral) which is French is one and there have been a couple of Swedish ones based on the Arne Dahl's Mysterioso novels. There may have been a Belgian one - something about an outbreak of a contagious disease but I can't remember that awfully well. I think I may have mentioned this show which was shown (dubbed into English, not particularly well) on British TV in the 1960s.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sat 16 Jun 2018, 23:15
Yes Kapitein Zeppos indeed Lady in retirement... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Zeppos But then already working, army service (15 months), marrying, building a house...very busy...no time to watch television... Only buying I suppose in 1962 a television second hand for my parents from the boss of a bricklayers firm, where I worked (including a huge mast with fixed antennas, which one had to direct with an electrical motor in the direction of the desired channel...only four channels within reach: a Dutch one, two Belgian ones: The BRT and the RTB (we called it Brussels Flemish and Brussels French), and then the French channel from Lille. They said that with a special antenna at the Belgian coast one could catch the BBC, but mostly problematic following the weather circumstances.
But it are more the Fifties that I remember from television. While we had not yet a television set (start of the Belgian TV in 1953), we asked to look at the house of our cousin, who had one of the first sets...I think it had to be in 1957...and as we had learned it at school and they pushed us to look to these cultural programs (for those who had a set) as "Elckerlijk" (the English Everyman) and Mariken van Nimeghe) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_national_de_radiodiffusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaamse_Radio-_en_Televisieomroeporganisatie
Those first years of the Dutch language Belgian television were very cultural. A lot in the direction were writers, cultural related personalities. And they defended the Flemish cultural heritage as the Dutch language poets and writers of the Middle Ages and later. It was still a reaction against the dominance in Belgium of the French culture, which was started after the independence of Belgium. A good guide in my opinion is the following wiki: https://wikivividly.com/wiki/Flemish_literature
From the wiki:
A number of the surviving epic works, especially the courtly romances, were copies from or expansions of earlier German or French efforts, but there are examples of truly original works (such as the anonymously written Karel ende Elegast) and original Dutch-language works that were translated into other languages (notable Dutch morality play Elckerlijc formed the basis for the English play Everyman).
Between 1426 and 1620, at least 66 of these festivals were held, the grandest of all was the festival celebrated at Antwerp on August 3, 1561. The Brussels chamber sent 340 members, all on horseback and clad in crimson mantles, the town of Antwerp gave a ton of gold to be given in prizes, which were shared among 1,893 rhetoricians. This was the zenith of the splendour of the chambers, and after this time they soon fell into disfavour. Their dramatic pieces produced by the chambers were of a didactic cast, with a strong farcical flavour, and continued the tradition of Maerlant and his school, they very rarely dealt with historical or even Biblical personages, but entirely with allegorical and moral abstractions. The most notable examples of Rederijker theatre include Mariken van Nieumeghen ("Mary of Nijmegen") and Elckerlijc (which was translated into English as Everyman). Of the pure farces of the rhetorical chambers we can speak with still more confidence, for some of them have come down to us, and among the authors famed for their skill in this sort of writing are named Cornelis Everaert of Bruges and Laurens Janssen of Haarlem. The material of these farces is extremely raw, consisting of rough jests at the expense of priests and foolish husbands, silly old men and their light wives.
Of course LiR it is a survey of literature and it is only partly that the Flemish movement for promoting Dutch as language in Belgium is mentioned, but it was not only a cultural struggle but also a social one from the common Flemish one against the French language dominated Flemish elite. And that aspect is many times not mentioned in general works about the subject. And this memory, although most is settled and youngsters have even no interest or memory about all this, both in the North and in the South, it is still a groundswell in the Flemish movement...but nowadays it is more the immigrant crisis which is actual and in that both North and South are united. (perhaps a bit more the North against immigration, while it is right wing dominated from history and the South Socialist left wing from history ) I suppose it is the same problem all over Europe, including the UK. And in that I want to disagree from nordmann, as if I rememeber it well, he said that that was not the main problem for the Brexit...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Edited: "spirit' not 'spirt' is the correct word. Sun 17 Jun 2018, 11:08
Interesting about the Flemish literature, Paul. I noted in the linked article that Elegast was possibly an elven person. I never read The Lord of the Rings though I did listen to some of a 1980s radio adaptation of the work and elves featured in that. I wonder if J R R Tolkien knew Dutch. Though persons who had something of an air of the supernatural about them were not unknown in stories in a time when many folk did believe in the supernatural. I'm a bit of a sucker for a swords and sorcery story so I may have to see if I can find an English language version of the above texts. The trouble I find is that sometimes when old texts are translated into modern English they become rather dry and lose the spirit and pace of the original material.
"The material of these farces is extremely raw, consisting of rough jests at the expense of priests and foolish husbands, silly old men and their light wives." Such matter seems to have been common in the less erudite part of medieval literature. (I'm thinking of Geoffrey Chaucer's The Miller's Tale).
Not that I know it or speak it, but I've always tended to refer to the language spoken in northern Belgium as "Flemish" but note now it should perhaps be more properly referred to as "Flemish Dutch".
I may have mentioned this before but going to see TV programmes at another person's house - oh been there, done that, though I don't have a T-Shirt saying "I watched _____ at my friend's house" *. My father didn't want to buy a TV with commercial stations thinking he had enough exposure to advertisements in the world at large, in the newspaper, on hoardings etc and only bought one with ITV (the commercial station which aired in my part of the UK) when TV sets only showing BBC had ceased to be manufactured. So I remember seeing some of the "cowboy" shows such as Bonanza at a friend's house.
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 20:35; edited 1 time in total
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 11:18
* - addendum. This is probably already known by people whose first language is not English but when somebody tries to teach another person about a subject of which he or she already has good knowledge, there is an English phrase that the person who is the object of the lesson may say to the teacher, "Been there, done that, bought/got the T-shirt".
Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5120 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 13:32
LadyinRetirement wrote:
I wonder if J R R Tolkien knew Dutch.
Well he was certainly an accomplished linguist competent in many languages both ancient and modern, including Old English (Anglo-Saxon) and Middle English (the language of Chaucer etc), and as we've discussed here before there are a many similarities in vocabulary between Middle English and Dutch.
LadyinRetirement wrote:
The trouble I find is that sometimes when old texts are translated into modern English they become rather dry and lose the spirt and pace of the original material.
And not just translations of old texts, and not just into English. You mentioned liking Swords-and-Sorcery stories ... I once started to read a translation into French of Tolkein's 'The Hobbit', but within just a few pages they'd translated 'Mid-Summer's Eve' as the 'Fête de St Jean', which is strictly correct but I couldn't reconcile a Christian saint's day with a fantasy story about hobbits, dwarves and elves supposedly set way back in the mists of time. That, plus some other odd or anachronistic translations, meant I gave up after just a chapter or two. By contrast I've read French translations of several of the Harry Potter books and those I thought were very well done, particularly with respect to the names of people and places in that they maintained the spirit, feel and word-play of the English original: Hogwarts as I recall became Poudlard, ie. Pou(x)-du-lard, literally 'pigfat-pox' so maybe in back-translation: 'Pigpocks' (it does work in French, believe me); the four school houses were Gryffondor, Poufsouffle, Serdaigle and Serpentard; while the house master/professors were McGonagall, Chourave, Flitwick et Rogue (I'll let you guess who's who); and the Magic Sorting Hat was rendered as Le Choixpeau Magique - which I thought a particularly clever translation and actually rather better than Rowling's original in English.
.... But, verontschuldigingen Paul, we seem to have drifted away from your OP about Nederlandse en Boheemse landgoederen van den Habsburgers.
Last edited by Meles meles on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 16:39; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : the definite article in Dutch ... still not sure I've got it right)
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
Subject: Edit: said "sorry" a second time when meant to say "responsible" Sun 17 Jun 2018, 15:13
I started a post saying I'm sorry if I am partially responsible for derailing the thread as the original subject of the thread is an interesting one in its own right. A while ago I read a historical novel by Shona Maclean The Devil's Recruit which involved a plot point about Scots students being lured away from their studies to fight in the Thirty Years War (Thirty Years' War?) which did have some basis in fact. In the linked video the writer who is a qualified historian mentions something about the tempting of students to fight in the war though here she is actually promoting The Crucible an earlier story in the same series which I haven't read.
Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 20:28; edited 1 time in total
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 18:27
LadyinRetirement wrote:
* - addendum. This is probably already known by people whose first language is not English but when somebody tries to teach another person about a subject of which he or she already has good knowledge, there is an English phrase that the person who is the object of the lesson may say to the teacher, "Been there, done that, bought/got the T-shirt".
Yes Lady, in my case it was necessary to explain, as it was Chinese (Greek?) for me...my first language is not English...but perhaps as I learned English not so much with speaking but more with reading...some expressions escape me...but I learned a lot over here from the blokes and the lassies...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 19:48
LadyinRetirement wrote:
I started a post saying I'm sorry if I am partially sorry for derailing the thread as the original subject of the thread is an interesting one in its own right. A while ago I read a historical novel by Shona Maclean The Devil's Recruit which involved a plot point about Scots students being lured away from their studies to fight in the Thirty Years War (Thirty Years' War?) which did have some basis in fact. In the linked video the writer who is a qualified historian mentions something about the tempting of students to fight in the war though here she is actually promoting The Crucible an earlier story in the same series which I haven't read.
If I ever come again in a kidneydialysis situation...one has to be realistic in life...I will read that series...checked and not yet available in the local library Bruges Belgium...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 20:17
Meles meles wrote:
LadyinRetirement wrote:
The trouble I find is that sometimes when old texts are translated into modern English they become rather dry and lose the spirt and pace of the original material.
And not just translations of old texts, and not just into English. You mentioned liking Swords-and-Sorcery stories ... I once started to read a translation into French of Tolkein's 'The Hobbit', but within just a few pages they'd translated 'Mid-Summer's Eve' as the 'Fête de St Jean', which is strictly correct but I couldn't reconcile a Christian saint's day with a fantasy story about hobbits, dwarves and elves supposedly set way back in the mists of time. That, plus some other odd or anachronistic translations, meant I gave up after just a chapter or two. By contrast I've read French translations of several of the Harry Potter books and those I thought were very well done, particularly with respect to the names of people and places in that they maintained the spirit, feel and word-play of the English original: Hogwarts as I recall became Poudlard, ie. Pou(x)-du-lard, literally 'pigfat-pox' so maybe in back-translation: 'Pigpocks' (it does work in French, believe me); the four school houses were Gryffondor, Poufsouffle, Serdaigle and Serpentard; while the house master/professors were McGonagall, Chourave, Flitwick et Rogue (I'll let you guess who's who); and the Magic Sorting Hat was rendered as Le Choixpeau Magique - which I thought a particularly clever translation and actually rather better than Rowling's original in English.
.... But, verontschuldigingen Paul, we seem to have drifted away from your OP about Nederlandse en Boheemse landgoederen van den Habsburgers.
"geen verontschuldigingen" Meles meles. By these asides I learned some items about the history of the Low Countries that, although I am that knowledgeable about that subject, I even wasn't aware of. As about the eldest son of William the Silent, the Catholic Filips-Willem, to whom Dirk pointed me and who was taken in between the Dutch Republic and the Southern Netherlands...
yes translations...as I now read French, English and German literature in the original, the only difficulty I have is to seek for words and expressions I don't understand...but in a novel when one don't understand a sentence, it is not that dramatic...as it is mostly a bit long winded and one can understand from the context, what is it all about ...till the Sixties reading Dutch translations I have never encountered some odd translations...but perhaps were the novels I read all easy to translate ones...with "easy" I mean "not sophisticated ones" as the American ones I mostly read in the childhood ...I remember even Swedish novels from the time I read them..very well translated in my opinion...perhaps the tranfer in the Germanic family is easier than in the Romance family... And I can understand that the translation from Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishement" from the Slavic language family...
Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
Subject: Re: Bohemian Estates Dutch Republic Habsburgs Sun 17 Jun 2018, 21:31
LadyinRetirement wrote:
Interesting about the Flemish literature, Paul. I noted in the linked article that Elegast was possibly an elven person. I never read The Lord of the Rings though I did listen to some of a 1980s radio adaptation of the work and elves featured in that. I wonder if J R R Tolkien knew Dutch. Though persons who had something of an air of the supernatural about them were not unknown in stories in a time when many folk did believe in the supernatural. I'm a bit of a sucker for a swords and sorcery story so I may have to see if I can find an English language version of the above texts. The trouble I find is that sometimes when old texts are translated into modern English they become rather dry and lose the spirt and pace of the original material.
"The material of these farces is extremely raw, consisting of rough jests at the expense of priests and foolish husbands, silly old men and their light wives." Such matter seems to have been common in the less erudite part of medieval literature. (I'm thinking of Geoffrey Chaucer's The Miller's Tale).
Not that I know it or speak it, but I've always tended to refer to the language spoken in northern Belgium as "Flemish" but note now it should perhaps be more properly referred to as "Flemish Dutch".
I may have mentioned this before but going to see TV programmes at another person's house - oh been there, done that, though I don't have a T-Shirt saying "I watched _____ at my friend's house" *. My father didn't want to buy a TV with commercial stations thinking he had enough exposure to advertisements in the world at large, in the newspaper, on hoardings etc and only bought one with ITV (the commercial station which aired in my part of the UK) when TV sets only showing BBC had ceased to be manufactured. So I remember seeing some of the "cowboy" shows such as Bonanza at a friend's house.
Lady,
"Interesting about the Flemish literature, Paul. I noted in the linked article that Elegast was possibly an elven person. I never read The Lord of the Rings though I did listen to some of a 1980s radio adaptation of the work and elves featured in that. I wonder if J R R Tolkien knew Dutch. Though persons who had something of an air of the supernatural about them were not unknown in stories in a time when many folk did believe in the supernatural. I'm a bit of a sucker for a swords and sorcery story so I may have to see if I can find an English language version of the above texts. The trouble I find is that sometimes when old texts are translated into modern English they become rather dry and lose the spirt and pace of the original material." http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=evans&book=kings&story=robber And the original translated in modern Dutch: https://www.scholieren.com/vertaling/22319
"Not that I know it or speak it, but I've always tended to refer to the language spoken in northern Belgium as "Flemish" but note now it should perhaps be more properly referred to as "Flemish Dutch"."
"Flemish Dutch" indeed as it are all dialects of Dutch in Northern Belgium as the West/East Flemish dialect, the Brabant/Brussels/Antwerp dialect, the Limburg dialect, which is already nearly "Plattdeutsch"
And in The Netherlands they speak at the other side of the border for instance in Zeeuws Vlaanderen, nearly the same Flemish dialect as in East and West Flanders, but with quite another accent as they through the fighting during the Eithy Years war were separated and during 400 years other language education had another evolution...the same with the Brabant dialect in the Netherlands...but I have the impression that the Limburg dialect on both sides of the border don' differ as much as the other two...
"I may have mentioned this before but going to see TV programmes at another person's house - oh been there, done that, though I don't have a T-Shirt saying "I watched _____ at my friend's house" *. My father didn't want to buy a TV with commercial stations thinking he had enough exposure to advertisements in the world at large, in the newspaper, on hoardings etc and only bought one with ITV (the commercial station which aired in my part of the UK) when TV sets only showing BBC had ceased to be manufactured. So I remember seeing some of the "cowboy" shows such as Bonanza at a friend's house."
Yes a bit parallel lives...it remembers me about the BBC and the zinc plated washing "bassin" each saterday the same ritual...the girls first, then the boys...the same in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Britain, the continent...I think that it was the late Eric Lindsey, who said that he still remembered it very well...the "bassin" outside after service on a nail in the barn...
And while I am on the Fifties TV that I mentioned...I forget to say that I during my research about Mariken van Nieuweghen found two more recent Dutch films about the subject but not "my" film. But I am definitely sure that I watched the first film in black and white at my cousin's house together with my sister and my parents...and yes the mighty internet can't contain it all as I suppose it is the number of views of an item that determines if the searching term appears or not?
Kind regards from Paul.
Meles meles Censura
Posts : 5120 Join date : 2011-12-30 Location : Pyrénées-Orientales, France
When looking to the "oy vey Maria" I first thought it was Spanish...but searching I came on the BBC play and there they write "oy vay"? And now I see that it is of course "Ave Maria"...I sought for a youtube or a summary but found nothing...
Oy vey, also writtten oy vay, or oy veh, is Yiddish (אױ װײ) and is an expression of general dismay or exasperation meaning roughly "oh, woe!" or "woe is me!" (oy vey ist mir, in Yiddish). It is used in English popular culture as a "typically" Jewish expression, hence the use in the British TV play that LiR was referring to, where in the couple one was Catholic and the other Jewish, and as you realised there it is also a play on the Latin "ave Maria".
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
When looking to the "oy vey Maria" I first thought it was Spanish...but searching I came on the BBC play and there they write "oy vay"? And now I see that it is of course "Ave Maria"...I sought for a youtube or a summary but found nothing...
Oy vey, also writtten oy vay, or oy veh, is Yiddish (אױ װײ) and is an expression of general dismay or exasperation meaning roughly "oh, woe!" or "woe is me!" (oy vey ist mir, in Yiddish). It is used in English popular culture as a "typically" Jewish expression, hence the use in the British TV play that LiR was referring to, where in the couple one was Catholic and the other Jewish, and as you realised there it is also a play on the Latin "ave Maria".
Meles meles,
just entered the forum after a visit outside...
Thank you very much for this explanation, as it has set me on the correct way and avoided that I the rest of my life remained in errance... And now of course I understand...Jiddish is a kind of German and Dutch... I remember on a 50 years' marriage anniversary...an "accordeonist" with a singer...a ballade and each part everytime starting with "oh wee" this event, "oh wee" that event... Dutch "wee" and German "weh" and I suppose the English "woe"?...Dutch: "wee diegene, die" (woe betide the one, who) https://en.bab.la/dictionary/dutch-english/wee https://www.linguee.de/deutsch-englisch/uebersetzung/oh+weh.html
And yes oh vey Maria and ave Maria...
Thanks again your sniffer, snooper? (schnuffelaar)
This was on Talking Pictures TV (Freeview 81) last weekend:
I thought it was a good film.
from wiki: In this light, George MacDonald Fraser wrote in 1988, "The plot left me bewildered - in fact the whole bloody business is probably an excellent microcosm of the Thirty Years' War, with no clear picture of what is happening and half the cast ending up dead to no purpose. To that extent, it must be rated a successful film. ... As a drama, The Last Valley is not remarkable; as a reminder of what happened in Central Europe, 1618-48, and shaped the future of Germany, it reads an interesting lesson." Fraser says of the stars, "Michael Caine ... gives one of his best performances as the hard-bitten mercenary captain, nicely complemented by Omar Sharif as the personification of reason."
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
what a splendid film. I couldn't stop to watch...I have seen three quarters of it I guess...and yes it goes to the heart of the matter about the Thrity Years War...thank you very much...but have to stop, have that much work to do...yesterday three quarters to seek about the conference of 21 May 1940 at Ypres and didn't found my message back that I had made in the time on the French Tribune Histoire...And I ultimately put the Dutch text on Passion Histoire...someone asked me for a translation and suddenly I found my text back, by putting in Google: "Major Ellis" 21 May 1940 ypres... https://historum.com/threads/fall-of-france-1940-pdfs.107711/page-3 And guess, to whom I had to answer on Historum...
Kind regards from Paul.
LadyinRetirement Censura
Posts : 3324 Join date : 2013-09-16 Location : North-West Midlands, England
In the early 1970s a friend dragged me along to watch that film at the cinema (at that time she was conducting a long distance romance with her boyfriend in France) and she reckoned her boyfriend looked like Omar Sharif. So anything with Omar Sharif was par for the course. Sorry to be Debbie Downer but I didn't like the film much (might have been Michael Caine's awful - to me at least - accent). I haven't seen my friend in decades though we swap Xmas cards (digitally nowadays). She is the lady I mentioned who lives in the Alsace and is now married to the boyfriend and has 4 adult sons and some grandchildren (though I don't know how many grandchildren).
PaulRyckier Censura
Posts : 4902 Join date : 2012-01-01 Location : Belgium
In the early 1970s a friend dragged me along to watch that film at the cinema (at that time she was conducting a long distance romance with her boyfriend in France) and she reckoned her boyfriend looked like Omar Sharif. So anything with Omar Sharif was par for the course. Sorry to be Debbie Downer but I didn't like the film much (might have been Michael Caine's awful - to me at least - accent). I haven't seen my friend in decades though we swap Xmas cards (digitally nowadays). She is the lady I mentioned who lives in the Alsace and is now married to the boyfriend and has 4 adult sons and some grandchildren (though I don't know how many grandchildren).
Lady,
"her boyfriend looked like Omar Sharif."
you have to admit that he is not a bad looking bloke...I have the feeling, especially for the women...
I saw him in Doctor Zjivago, in Lawrence, with Sophia Loren and in some films I guess I don't recall immediately...
Kind regards from Paul.
Last edited by PaulRyckier on Sun 01 Nov 2020, 17:02; edited 1 time in total
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